Myanmar men plead not guilty to murder of British tourists on Koh Tao

[thailandchilli]

One can only imagine the extreme agony being felt in the TAT office right now. I bet the news of the B2's 'not guilty' plea went down like a lead balloon. Just think of all the tourist baht at risk as a result of the trial being prolonged and not as wished, concluded today.

Actually, having the trial will likely help return the UK backpackers. Other nationalities seem not to have diminished.

Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before.

if you know such things shouldnt it be "here" rather than "there"

do you declare your stance on this matter to western tourist or expats?

someone of such strong convictions would surely be true to themselves.

to easy, just way to easy

Nope. "here" is Nakhon Nayok. "there" is Koh Tao.

"A few hundred yards away along Sairee beach, the main tourist drag on the Thai holiday island, life continues as normal. Business, says a French man running a dive shop – much of Koh Tao’s tourism is based around diving – is actually busier than expected for the monsoon season. “After the murders you did notice that there were fewer people for a bit. But it was only really the British that stayed away. With everyone else, they didn’t even really notice.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thailand-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-mystery-mafia-fear

Rather different to your earlier statement "Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before."

[thailandchilli]

One can only imagine the extreme agony being felt in the TAT office right now. I bet the news of the B2's 'not guilty' plea went down like a lead balloon. Just think of all the tourist baht at risk as a result of the trial being prolonged and not as wished, concluded today.

Actually, having the trial will likely help return the UK backpackers. Other nationalities seem not to have diminished.

Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before.

if you know such things shouldnt it be "here" rather than "there"

do you declare your stance on this matter to western tourist or expats?

someone of such strong convictions would surely be true to themselves.

to easy, just way to easy

Nope. "here" is Nakhon Nayok. "there" is Koh Tao.

"A few hundred yards away along Sairee beach, the main tourist drag on the Thai holiday island, life continues as normal. Business, says a French man running a dive shop – much of Koh Tao’s tourism is based around diving – is actually busier than expected for the monsoon season. “After the murders you did notice that there were fewer people for a bit. But it was only really the British that stayed away. With everyone else, they didn’t even really notice.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thailand-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-mystery-mafia-fear

Rather different to your earlier statement "Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before."

It gists the same, 2 of my UK friends are there diving this week, so I am comfortable with my statement.

I thought you might be, same as the french diving shop owner is comfortable with his

[thailandchilli]

One can only imagine the extreme agony being felt in the TAT office right now. I bet the news of the B2's 'not guilty' plea went down like a lead balloon. Just think of all the tourist baht at risk as a result of the trial being prolonged and not as wished, concluded today.

Actually, having the trial will likely help return the UK backpackers. Other nationalities seem not to have diminished.

Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before.

if you know such things shouldnt it be "here" rather than "there"

do you declare your stance on this matter to western tourist or expats?

someone of such strong convictions would surely be true to themselves.

to easy, just way to easy

Nope. "here" is Nakhon Nayok. "there" is Koh Tao.

"A few hundred yards away along Sairee beach, the main tourist drag on the Thai holiday island, life continues as normal. Business, says a French man running a dive shop – much of Koh Tao’s tourism is based around diving – is actually busier than expected for the monsoon season. “After the murders you did notice that there were fewer people for a bit. But it was only really the British that stayed away. With everyone else, they didn’t even really notice.”

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/23/briton-thailand-murder-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-mystery-mafia-fear

Rather different to your earlier statement "Still plenty of British heading there but apparently less than before."

It gists the same, 2 of my UK friends are there diving this week, so I am comfortable with my statement.

I thought you might be, same as the french diving shop owner is comfortable with his

And the Canadian girl with her statement about never living anywhere she felt safer.

“I’ve never felt as safe living anywhere,” said one young Canadian woman based on the island.

Yes I notice its the same article that in a separate thread you said was published just for page views

[jdinasia]

We have been through that before. You remember I am sure. Context matters.

[Oscar2]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

you don't have a clue what the "evidence" against them is.

[jdinasia]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

you don't have a clue what the "evidence" against them is.

I would think that the families of the victims has a clue and they seem to think the case against ydefendants is strong.

[Dogmatix]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

you don't have a clue what the "evidence" against them is.

I would think that the families of the victims has a clue and they seem to think the case against ydefendants is strong.

Perhaps this is the case. We should give the families the benefit of the doubt on that since we don't know what they were told by the plods or whether the Thai police have managed to keep secret some vital pieces of their evidence, even though the evidence publicised by them was neither powerful nor convincing. We should also give the defendants the benefit of doubt, since they are innocent until proved guilty.

[smokie36]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

you don't have a clue what the "evidence" against them is.

I would think that the families of the victims has a clue and they seem to think the case against ydefendants is strong.

Perhaps we will be lucky enough to see a fair trial.

[Eirene]

Does anyone remember the article in irrawaddy regarding the Myanmar Embassy officer reporting in an interview about the two Burmese going for a swim and returning to find their clothes and guitar missing? The police then produced them as evidence in court on October 14th. This was reported in a few blogs at the time. I have found what I beleive is the original article although I am unable to translate. Could not locate any other reporting on this.

Not sure if I am allowed to link to the irrwaddy site.

[Dogmatix]

In thinking about what powerful and convincing evidence the prosecution might now have, it is interesting to go back the initial phase of the investigation to see how the story has evolved. From The Nation 21 September, four days after the murders:

"Somyot had earlier said the authorities would ask the United States' Federal Bureau of Investigation to conduct the test, as the police's Institute of Forensic Medicine's DNA test was capable of only identifying the sex."

[aimbc]

How does it work? They want a speedy trial, but took their own sweet time about indicting them. Ok....that makes sense...Thai style

[Dogmatix]

Reports on Thai language news sites are saying the police chief and senior officers involved in the Koh Tao murder investigation are in London for a human trafficking conference and will hold talks on the murders with David Cameron and the head of the National Crime Agency.

[aimbc]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

I see you don't know anything about bravery. You can learn a thing or two from these two.

Not much of a life, living to regret your actions. Especially stuck in jail with out freedom.

[Dogmatix]

Does anyone remember the article in irrawaddy regarding the Myanmar Embassy officer reporting in an interview about the two Burmese going for a swim and returning to find their clothes and guitar missing? The police then produced them as evidence in court on October 14th. This was reported in a few blogs at the time. I have found what I beleive is the original article although I am unable to translate. Could not locate any other reporting on this.

Not sure if I am allowed to link to the irrwaddy site.

I recall that. I think the article said the police took the clothes and the guitar to the court when they took statements from Burmese witnesses who they feared might not stay in Thailand, including the formerly star witness, Maung Maung, who also worked at the AC Bar. It wasn't clear whether the 2B had gone back to their room naked or were swimming in their underwear. Either way they must have avoided the CCTV cameras on their way back.

[smellthecoffee]

We must support these Burmese guys to the end keep on posting all of this on your social media pages FACEBOOK TWITTER and anywhere else you have an opportunity to do so.

[Eirene]

Does anyone remember the article in irrawaddy regarding the Myanmar Embassy officer reporting in an interview about the two Burmese going for a swim and returning to find their clothes and guitar missing? The police then produced them as evidence in court on October 14th. This was reported in a few blogs at the time. I have found what I beleive is the original article although I am unable to translate. Could not locate any other reporting on this.

Not sure if I am allowed to link to the irrwaddy site.

I recall that. I think the article said the police took the clothes and the guitar to the court when they took statements from Burmese witnesses who they feared might not stay in Thailand, including the formerly star witness, Maung Maung, who also worked at the AC Bar. It wasn't clear whether the 2B had gone back to their room naked or were swimming in their underwear. Either way they must have avoided the CCTV cameras on their way back.

Thanks Dogmatix. I find this story rather odd. If true then how did the police come by their clothes if they were gone from the beach when they returned from swimming? Also, if as claimed by numerous reports, they were supposedly so drunk they could barely walk how did they manage to swim? This whole case has so many twists and turns it boggles the mind. MOO

Edit:To correct posting within quote.

[fish fingers]

with this case and all the other bad tourism publicity recently, alot of which is Prayuth's fault (and I was a big fan in the beginning) it will be interesting to see how this season goes

My feeling is Thailand will lose a large percentage of travellers to Cambodia yet again, plus other countries such as Burma and Vietnam. Many tourists feel Thailand is no longer a relaxed chilled place to visit now

I expect to see the baht drop gain in a few months (against sterling, esp after UK election)

[Dogmatix]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

I see you don't know anything about bravery. You can learn a thing or two from these two.

Not much of a life, living to regret your actions. Especially stuck in jail with out freedom.

Even if they get a life sentence, they would probably have to serve 30 years, if they live that long, with the prospect of maybe getting out as broken middle aged men with ruined health after that amount of time in an inhuman Thai jail. Bear in the mind also that, unlike developed country legal systems the defence didn't have access to the prosecutor's evidence before advising their clients how to plead, even it was suddenly talked up just before the pleas as being much more convincing that the evidence already publicised by the police.

So they trade the possibility that the new evidence may turn out to be either a bluff or inadmissible for some reason in any of the three courts they will be tried in for the possibility that they might get life instead of death in exchange for pleading guilty but that would not be a straight US style plea bargain and it is left up to the judge whether he gives death or not, as he did in the case of the train rapist/murder in spite of the confession and guilty plea. Even if sentenced to death, there would be a much better than 50% chance it would be commuted to life imprisonment, since Thailand is not currently carrying out death sentences.

So for those brave enough to risk the lowish probability of the needle, pleading not guilty leaves open the upside of acquittal in any of the three trial stages, however slim, with the most probable outcome being 30 years in jail. Pleading guilty would have eliminated the possibility of acquittal with most probable outcome also being 30 years in jail but fails to eliminate completely the risk of the needle. Logically it makes sense to go for the choice with a possibility, however small, of unlimited upside. It might be different if pleading guilty offered a maximum sentence of say 10 years with the possibility of parole and no possibility of a death sentence but it doesn't.

[Dogmatix]

Does anyone remember the article in irrawaddy regarding the Myanmar Embassy officer reporting in an interview about the two Burmese going for a swim and returning to find their clothes and guitar missing? The police then produced them as evidence in court on October 14th. This was reported in a few blogs at the time. I have found what I beleive is the original article although I am unable to translate. Could not locate any other reporting on this.

Not sure if I am allowed to link to the irrwaddy site.

I recall that. I think the article said the police took the clothes and the guitar to the court when they took statements from Burmese witnesses who they feared might not stay in Thailand, including the formerly star witness, Maung Maung, who also worked at the AC Bar. It wasn't clear whether the 2B had gone back to their room naked or were swimming in their underwear. Either way they must have avoided the CCTV cameras on their way back.

Thanks Dogmatix. I find this story rather odd. If true then how did the police come by their clothes if they were gone from the beach when they returned from swimming? Also, if as claimed by numerous reports, they were supposedly so drunk they could barely walk how did they manage to swim? This whole case has so many twists and turns it boggles the mind. MOO

Edit:To correct posting within quote.

I found the story very odd and odder still that it wasn't repeated after that testimony by Burmese witnesses in the Samui court that didn't go the way police intended with the star witness who was supposed to testify that he had seen the 2B committing the rape and murders and instead ended up with more allegations of torture and intimidation.

[englishoak]

Nice to see the plea was not guilty, shifting the Trail to the 26th of December before the UK reports in Jan is an interesting, youd think they would if so confident in the prosecution be better off waiting for those findings before commencing trial and using what they keep saying is the full support and confidence of the UK police, if thats true then the independent enquiry should support the RTP investigation.

​What im not sure about is what is admissible after a trail has already started and whats not. I suspect that moving the date to before the UK report is very relevant and would not be surprised if there is a benefit to doing so for the prosecution in the Thai legal system.

[Dogmatix]

At the very least rushing the trial gives the defence less time to prepare their case in addition to all the built in disadvantages.

Thai media days the police are hoping to persuade the victims' parents to become co-plaintiffs with the public prosecutor. I am not sure how that will help if the prosecutor has the same powerful and convincing evidence as they do. This mechanism serves as a check and balance in cases where it is feared prosecutors might deliberately fluff a case and victim's families can call and cross examine witnesses. Thus worked in trial of the policeman who murderec Vanessa Ascott when her father came out to co-prosecute the cop bit in this case.seems unlikely the prosecutor would deliberately bungle the case.Also the parents' statements suggest them rant to be left in peace rather than come our to Tjailand to pursue justice for their children and who could blame them?

[26vinny]

How did it get this far RTP and the militia are in this together, so the rioting has stopped in a non democratic society, but the killings still go on and the murderers still out their,

Koh Toa = murder island, thats its name here in England now, untill this farce is sorted out and the Murderers penalised then tourism will stay low for a long time, i am showing my disdain with my feet and $ not going to thailand and spending my $ elsewhere.land the worlds eyes are on this, everybody knows the B2 are scapegoats, Thalands new country name is

BAHTLAND & the B/S Isles

[Krenjai]

I believe the RTP has got something up their sleeves. There must have been a reason why the prosecutor refused the perfect case several times. What can that be? I think it is clear that the DNA samples that will be introduced in court will show a match. The prosecutor knows these results will be challenged for the same reasons why many of us don't believe them, so they needed more............

Lets see, they found the second murder weapon with fingerprints.....no? OK, there is no second murder weapon according to the RTP? Or did they find one suddenly? Maybe the pancake vendor found that famous bottle of wine..........no good? OK, what else?.......A rock? Nah..... the phone that was found which was seen on the RTP's officer desk? That phone? No another phone? 3 phones? David his phone? Or Sunglasses, there seems to be sunglasses popping up suddenly probably with fingerprints of the accused.....uh oh, how did those get there? Did David carry around his sunglasses that night? I also read something about 20 witnesses, yes 20, not 1..........uh oh!

Yes, all speculation, and ALL speculation can end IF the world will be shown independently verified DNA form the repatriated bodies against fresh B2 samples. Everything else, yes JD, everything else is IMHO not good enough and nor should it be for the families of the victims! I understand very well they want this speculation to stop, so they should simply ask Scotland Yard to release their DNA findings (if they have it). It will come out in January anyway, why not now? What is the problem with this? Didn't they check? Did they buy the RTP DNA findings? What is it?

The fact that everything else is not good enough, is not the conspiracy theorist or social media, it is the RTP itself who posted insane contradictory reports and statements since day one all over the news, even uploading horrific pictures of the crime. They caused this circus themselves.

[catsanddogs]

The BP news report today says the B2's attorney from the Lawyers CouncilThailand (Nakhon Chomphuchat), said that the court has kindly advised that if the defendants' evidence could not refute (the allegations), the defendants should confess, which will be beneficial to both of them.

Can't make out if this is the court wanting the best for the suspects or a nudge towards confessions.

Can anyone tell me why quotes and links are not allowed on TV from the Bangkok Post please?

And why are Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo constantly referred to as 'Myanmar workers' rather than Myanmar men'?

[englishoak]

Obviously at any point the accused can always change plea to guilty in a trail

BP isnt a source thats allowed here

No idea why they refer to them as workers and not men but does it really matter ?

[anon022]

That move is equivalent to signing their death warrants. The evidence against them is overwhelming. Their lawyers play with their lives.

That's right they were in the general area and are Burmese who passed the first DNA test, clearly 'overwhelming'.Unless somebody has taken up the cops offer of 13k again to lie as a witness the evidence is circumstantial at best.

It must be harder than I thought to eat humble pie, Jack. Good luck with that, and to all the other TV crime detectives too. Luckily, you can share the pie!

[berybert]

The reason the court would ask the parents for help is described in one word.

Desperate.

[catsanddogs]

Obviously at any point the accused can always change plea to guilty in a trail

BP isnt a source thats allowed here

No idea why they refer to them as workers and not men but does it really matter ?

Thanks. I know BP source isn't allowed here - I was asking if anyone knew why.

I think that it does matter that they are referred to as 'workers' as it dehumanises them somewhat.

[berybert]

Obviously at any point the accused can always change plea to guilty in a trail

BP isnt a source thats allowed here

No idea why they refer to them as workers and not men but does it really matter ?

Thanks. I know BP source isn't allowed here - I was asking if anyone knew why.

I think that it does matter that they are referred to as 'workers' as it dehumanises them somewhat.

Sorry when does being described as a worker dehumanize anyone ? 98 % of the people in the world work one way or another,

[catsanddogs]

The BP news report today says the B2's attorney from the Lawyers CouncilThailand (Nakhon Chomphuchat), said that the court has kindly advised that if the defendants' evidence could not refute (the allegations), the defendants should confess, which will be beneficial to both of them.

Can't make out if this is the court wanting the best for the suspects or a nudge towards confessions.

Can anyone tell me why quotes and links are not allowed on TV from the Bangkok Post please?

And why are Zaw Lin and Wai Phyo constantly referred to as 'Myanmar workers' rather than Myanmar men'?

Wai Phyo

Win Zaw Tun

Win Phyo

Win Zaw Htun

Four variations in the newspapers of the name and spelling of one of the suspects. Hope they get it right at the trial.