US rapprochement with Cuba is long overdue

[simple1]

Yes the island utopia. Where those lucky enough to have a job make about $60 a month. Might be wise to do some research before you go spouting off about how good things are in Cuba. btw are cell phones still outlawed? Sort of like microwaves? Ever wonder why the newest car is 1957?

Cell-phone ban lifted on April 1, 2008.

Permission was granted ealier this year by the State to acquire modern imported cars by citizens, albeit with very high import taxes.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/03/cuba-classic-car-streets-rule-change-new-purchase

So far doesn't appear to be any commentary on the Vatican & Canadian involvement in smoothing the way for the diplomatic process. Although looks as though Republicans will endeavour to close out the normalisation of trade and diplomatic relations. IMO bit of a shame as there is always a beginning that can lead to the eventual benefit of the people

Edited December 21, 2014 by simple1

[sirineou]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

[Jingthing]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

Yeah. Like China.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[sirineou]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

Yeah. Like China.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

or Laos or Vietnam

[NeverSure]

I'm a little confused, many of the contributers seem to think that Cuba and the Philipines just sort of drifted into the US's sphere of influence and now deeply regret not being part of it....something like that? right?

The facts are that the US forced Spain into a war it couldn't win, there was all sorts of confusion on how the "white ship" came to be sunk! The carpet baggers demanded the US go to war, Teddy R. shouted something like "manifest destiny boys" and gosh! American capitalists of every ilk made a fortune, it was only when castro threw out Batista, the US puppet, that Cubans gained what little freedom they have today! The Philipines were an unofficial colony of the US up until WWII, they fought and won their freedom from both the Japanese and the US by their victories!

If you don't believe me, watch the Godfather!

I don't believe you. And BTW, I AM the Godfather.

[Publicus]

The Chamber of Commerce and Cuban Foreign Ministry calculated that the trade and economic embargo has cost Cuba $1.1 Trillion that otherwise would have gone into building a communist dictatorship in Cuba that could have menaced the entire hemisphere of the Americas. The Cuban Missile Crisis of 1962 was awful enough, but in the decades since Cuba has definitively been prevented from similar wild adventures.

US and Cuba

54 years since trade embargo imposed

$1.1 trillion cost to Cuban economy

Cost to US economy $1.2bn a year

US presidents since 1960: 11

Cuban presidents since 1960: 3

Source: US Chamber of Commerce, Cuba Foreign Ministry

U.S. Chamber Welcomes Progress in U.S.-Cuba Relations

“As we witnessed on our exploratory trip to Havana earlier this year, Cuba has changed some of its economic policies to lessen government control or ownership of Cuban businesses, and subsequently, their private sector is growing. There is still work to do, on both sides of this relationship, but the changes outlined today are a substantive and positive step forward. It is imperative that the Cuban government build on today’s positive steps with a more ambitious economic reform agenda at home, while we continue to push for the end of the embargo here in Washington.

https://www.uschamber.com/press-release/us-chamber-welcomes-progress-us-cuba-relations

This is the first step toward the day when once again anyone in the US can travel to Cuba as a tourist and any company in the US can do business in Cuba.

The 18 months of confidential discussions and negotiations that led to the announcement by Prez Obama and Raul Castro began five weeks after the death of Hugo Chavez and included the pope and Canada, each of which have had diplomatic relations with Cuba for a very long time.

Included in the first steps toward Cuban reliance on the United States are a quadrupling of the remittances Cuban-Americans can send, to $2000 per quarter, an amount that will contribute substantially toward increasing the Cuban GDP per capita of $6000. Prez Obama had already eased travel restrictions to Cuba resulting in 200,000 exiles visiting Cuba annually since 2009.

Now US visitors to Cuba will be able to used credit and debit cards issued by banks in the United States at both banks in Cuba and at businesses there. US banks abroad can now service Cuban expats, and US foreign subsidiaries are now able to sell cell phone communications technologies to Cubans. US construction firm subsidiaries abroad can now sell materials to Cubans.

All of this btw came as a shock surprise to Venezuela President Nicholas Maduro who had been in Havana in October but knew nothing about the negotiations, the agreements, the announcement until after they were made public. The CCP Boyz in Beijing aren't too pleased either.

[Publicus]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

This is the same tired and grumpy attack Prez Obama pulp.

Here are some facts.

Do try to keep up so as to catch up with the majority of....well, everyone else in everything else.

Probably don't like Cuban cigars either

Americans Favor New Cuba Policy

New York Times Poll Finds Public Support for Re-Establishing Relations with Cuba

Poll finds majority support normalization of relations

Most Americans support more normal trade and diplomatic relations with Cuba and consider what happens in the communist nation to be important to the interests of the United States

Likewise, while nearly 6 in 10 Americans overall and roughly the same number of Democrats and independents approved of re-establishing relations with Cuba, less than half of Republicans approved.

http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2014/12/17/?entry=7350&_r=0

More Cuban-Americans now favor thawing US-Cuba relations.

Florida International University in Miami has been polling Cuban-Americans since 1991. Back then, 87 percent of Cuban-Americans supported the embargo, but after President Obama was elected in 2008, that shifted completely. For the first time in the poll's history, most Cuban-Americans said they disapproved of the U.S. embargo.

— 68 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic relations with Cuba.

— Among younger respondents, 90 percent of respondents favor restoring diplomatic ties.

— When you include only registered voters, 51 percent of them support continuing the embargo.

— 69 percent of all respondents favor the lifting of travel restrictions impeding all Americans from traveling to Cuba.

— 53 percent of respondents said they would be likely to vote for a "candidate for political office who supported the re-establishment of diplomatic relations."

— A large majority — 71 percent — responded that the U.S. embargo of Cuba has not worked at all or has not worked very well.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/12/17/371411659/polls-show-cuban-american-view-on-u-s-cuba-relations-is-nuanced

Edited December 21, 2014 by Publicus

[englishoak]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

such a silly thing to say

Just where do you suppose China fits in then ?

Last I checked more than a couple of US cos have their manufacturing bases there and methinks the American public pick up the vast majority of stuff made in China.

Back on topic. It is very popular overseas

Well done Cuba and well done Obama. Not a bad legacy to leave behind given how little hes able to do at home, the only shame is it wasnt at the beginning of his first term as a real sign of change instead of a whimper on the way out.

Well done nevertheless and well overdue.

[sirineou]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

such a silly thing to say

Just where do you suppose China fits in then ?

Last I checked more than a couple of US cos have their manufacturing bases there and methinks the American public pick up the vast majority of stuff made in China.

Back on topic. It is very popular overseas

Well done Cuba and well done Obama. Not a bad legacy to leave behind given how little hes able to do at home, the only shame is it wasnt at the beginning of his first term as a real sign of change instead of a whimper on the way out.

Well done nevertheless and well overdue.

I think you missed the irony in my post, what a silly thing to do. I see your three laughing man and raise you an other,

we have normalized relationships with several communist countries, As you mentioned, China is one, Laos and Vietnam are some others.We also dont have a problem having normal relationships with many totalitarian governments. and dont seem to have a problem with socialism

Cuba could not be allowed to succeed, capitalist interests would not allow it. If the Cuban model was successful it might give people ideas.

[Publicus]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

such a silly thing to say

Just where do you suppose China fits in then ?

Last I checked more than a couple of US cos have their manufacturing bases there and methinks the American public pick up the vast majority of stuff made in China.

Back on topic. It is very popular overseas

Well done Cuba and well done Obama. Not a bad legacy to leave behind given how little hes able to do at home, the only shame is it wasnt at the beginning of his first term as a real sign of change instead of a whimper on the way out.

Well done nevertheless and well overdue.

I think you missed the irony in my post, what a silly thing to do. I see your three laughing man and raise you an other,

we have normalized relationships with several communist countries, As you mentioned, China is one, Laos and Vietnam are some others.We also dont have a problem having normal relationships with many totalitarian governments. and dont seem to have a problem with socialism

Cuba could not be allowed to succeed, capitalist interests would not allow it. If the Cuban model was successful it might give people ideas.

It always was impossible for the Cuban "model" to be successful, witness the former USSR and so many other totalitarian communist states over the past century and into the present century.

US policy since Castro grabbed power in Cuba was to limit the damage by constraining and containing the 26th of July Revolution, and we have done that superbly.

Now it's time for a change and Prez Obama is leading in this respect, reflecting the views and will of the American people to include the Cuban exile community and Cuban Americans in general.

Castro was never going to succeed because he had it all wrong to begin with. The US imperative was to oppose totalitarian communism in our hemisphere, not to fear its impossible success. Ye of little faith!

[thailiketoo]

Democracy in Cuba? Why not? If the US do not corrupt the elections...Castro will win it easily...

In the three years that followed the revolution, 250,000 Cubans out of a population of six million left the country. Most of these were from the upper and middle-classes who were financially worse off as a result of Castro's policies.

Of those who stayed, 90 per cent of the population, according to public opinion polls, supported Castro. However, Castro did not keep his promise of holding free elections. Castro claimed the national unity that had been created would be destroyed by the competing political parties in an election.

http://spartacus-educational.com/COLDcastroF.htm

[thailiketoo]

Examples of other "islands" with US support? Puerto Rico, Haiti, Granada, Philipines.....Are those in better shape than Cuba?

Puerto Rico GDP per capita, $19,210

Cuba GDP per capita $5,890

Are those in better shape than Cuba? You gotta be kidding?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GNI_%28nominal,_Atlas_method%29_per_capita

Edited December 22, 2014 by thailiketoo

[thailiketoo]

The Philipines were an unofficial colony of the US up until WWII, they fought and won their freedom from both the Japanese and the US by their victories!

Name the Victories.

[NanLaew]

Cuba dared to 'point a gun' at the US back in 1962 and for that most Americans of that generation can not and will not forgive them.

The bulk of the true Cuban emigre's from that generation also considered themselves political refugees; many still do. The more recent arrivals, most facilitated by legal agreements and commercial flights, tend to be economic refugees. There are more Cubans arriving legally in the US via regular and chartered flights than by inner-tubes and boats.

The Russians stopped being the main Cuban benefactor back around 1994 after consecutive disastrous harvests under Gorbachev's tutelage meant they needed to engage in trading with other countries for grain, hence they pulled the plug on the Cuban sugar for oil trade. Cuban crude is heavy and needs refining before it could be marketed so the Soviets would trade their usable oil products (refined gasoline and diesel) for Cuban sugar.

After the Soviet collapse, the void was filled by Hugo Chavez, a similarly charismatic and clueless despot who also didn't see the writing on the wall. However, since Venezuelan crude was much more usable in the US, no serious embargo's were ever enacted there. Just empty rhetoric and tit-for-tat sabre rattling.

Now that the US is fast-tracking as a net oil exporter at the same time as sticking meaningful sanctions on Russia, it is entirely logical that the longest serving bastion of Socialism in the western hemisphere be charmed away from any remote chance of being underpinned, legitimized and enhanced by a desperate and marginalized Russia under Putin.

When one stands too close to the forest, one can't see the woods for the trees. Cuba is too close to Florida's shores for many in the US to see how pragmatic and politically expedient this proposed rapprochement is. Maybe Congress, by dint of being geographicaly more distant from the Caribbean, will give this decent proposal the approval that it and the Cuban people deserves.

[poweratradio]

Yes the island utopia. Where those lucky enough to have a job make about $60 a month. Might be wise to do some research before you go spouting off about how good things are in Cuba. btw are cell phones still outlawed? Sort of like microwaves? Ever wonder why the newest car is 1957?

Cell-phone ban lifted on April 1, 2008.

Permission was granted ealier this year by the State to acquire modern imported cars by citizens, albeit with very high import taxes.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/03/cuba-classic-car-streets-rule-change-new-purchase

So far doesn't appear to be any commentary on the Vatican & Canadian involvement in smoothing the way for the diplomatic process. Although looks as though Republicans will endeavour to close out the normalisation of trade and diplomatic relations. IMO bit of a shame as there is always a beginning that can lead to the eventual benefit of the people

Canada had zero involvement in the negotiations but did provide the board room. LMAO

[poweratradio]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

such a silly thing to say

Just where do you suppose China fits in then ?

Last I checked more than a couple of US cos have their manufacturing bases there and methinks the American public pick up the vast majority of stuff made in China.

Back on topic. It is very popular overseas

Well done Cuba and well done Obama. Not a bad legacy to leave behind given how little hes able to do at home, the only shame is it wasnt at the beginning of his first term as a real sign of change instead of a whimper on the way out.

Well done nevertheless and well overdue.

Dreamer.

[sirineou]

I dont care what Obama does , Americans will never stand for normalizing relations with a communist country and never buy any products produced there.

such a silly thing to say

Just where do you suppose China fits in then ?

Last I checked more than a couple of US cos have their manufacturing bases there and methinks the American public pick up the vast majority of stuff made in China.

Back on topic. It is very popular overseas

Well done Cuba and well done Obama. Not a bad legacy to leave behind given how little hes able to do at home, the only shame is it wasnt at the beginning of his first term as a real sign of change instead of a whimper on the way out.

Well done nevertheless and well overdue.

I think you missed the irony in my post, what a silly thing to do. I see your three laughing man and raise you an other,

we have normalized relationships with several communist countries, As you mentioned, China is one, Laos and Vietnam are some others.We also dont have a problem having normal relationships with many totalitarian governments. and dont seem to have a problem with socialism

Cuba could not be allowed to succeed, capitalist interests would not allow it. If the Cuban model was successful it might give people ideas.

It always was impossible for the Cuban "model" to be successful, witness the former USSR and so many other totalitarian communist states over the past century and into the present century.

US policy since Castro grabbed power in Cuba was to limit the damage by constraining and containing the 26th of July Revolution, and we have done that superbly.

Now it's time for a change and Prez Obama is leading in this respect, reflecting the views and will of the American people to include the Cuban exile community and Cuban Americans in general.

Castro was never going to succeed because he had it all wrong to begin with. The US imperative was to oppose totalitarian communism in our hemisphere, not to fear its impossible success. Ye of little faith!

It has being said that the communist model of governing has failed. and examples of so called communist countries that have failed are given. Look at the USSR they say, look at North Korea, look at Cuba etc.. Non of this were communist models that were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits, these models were vehemently opposed, by capitalist forces, to defend there selves, the communist models devolved in to repressive totalitarian states . If they had not, they would have being infiltrated and destroyed.

The US did not have a problem with repression,in Cuba it was happy to support Batista, what it had was a problem with communism succeeding,

One of the first things Castro did after he gained power in Cuba, was to visit the US , President Eisenhower refused to meet with him, instead chose to play golf that day, A big problem was the nationalization of US interests in Cuba, interests that had be illegally gained via the US support of Batista.

less than a year Year later Eisenhower ordered the CIA to begin arming and training opposition forces to overthrow Castro, a decision that culminated with the disastrous attack of Cuba during the Kennedy administration known as the Bay of Pigs. and followed by several CIA assassination attempts on Castro s life

.Yet Cuba was branded a Terrorist supporting state!!! And the US was surprised that Cuba would align it;s self with the USSR

The BBC has several very good documentaries concerning Cuba , Castro, and the history of Cuba US relationships

they can be found on Youtube

Given the above brief and superficial description of event we will never know if the Cuban Model would had succeed or failed on it's own merits .

[thailiketoo]

It has being said that the communist model of governing has failed. and examples of so called communist countries that have failed are given. Look at the USSR they say, look at North Korea, look at Cuba etc.. Non of this were communist models that were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits, these models were vehemently opposed, by capitalist forces, to defend there selves, the communist models devolved in to repressive totalitarian states . If they had not, they would have being infiltrated and destroyed.

The US did not have a problem with repression,in Cuba it was happy to support Batista, what it had was a problem with communism succeeding,

One of the first things Castro did after he gained power in Cuba, was to visit the US , President Eisenhower refused to meet with him, instead chose to play golf that day, A big problem was the nationalization of US interests in Cuba, interests that had be illegally gained via the US support of Batista.

less than a year Year later Eisenhower ordered the CIA to begin arming and training opposition forces to overthrow Castro, a decision that culminated with the disastrous attack of Cuba during the Kennedy administration known as the Bay of Pigs. and followed by several CIA assassination attempts on Castro s life

.Yet Cuba was branded a Terrorist supporting state!!! And the US was surprised that Cuba would align it;s self with the USSR

The BBC has several very good documentaries concerning Cuba , Castro, and the history of Cuba US relationships

they can be found on Youtube

Given the above brief and superficial description of event we will never know if the Cuban Model would had succeed or failed on it's own merits .

Awww. Stalin killed 60 million. Mao killed 45 million. Castro killed thousands. How many more should the Western powers allow them to kill before responding?

There are free elections in the US, UK and even Australia. Are there free elections in Cuba, North Korea and Russia and China? Do the Free Powers kill millions of their own people to maintain control?

I realize you may think 100 million or so communists are not a big loss but they are people after all and someone should look out for them.

The USA except Obama wants regime change in Cuba because Castro is a totalitarian dictator that holds his people in slavery.

When I look back at the millions of people the communist dictators have killed I do wonder if the Free Powers should have given them more of a chance to succeed economically.

The USA would have lifted the embargo years ago if Cuba would have had only one free election. Doesn't seem to much to ask does it?

Edited December 22, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sirineou]

It has being said that the communist model of governing has failed. and examples of so called communist countries that have failed are given. Look at the USSR they say, look at North Korea, look at Cuba etc.. Non of this were communist models that were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits, these models were vehemently opposed, by capitalist forces, to defend there selves, the communist models devolved in to repressive totalitarian states . If they had not, they would have being infiltrated and destroyed.

The US did not have a problem with repression,in Cuba it was happy to support Batista, what it had was a problem with communism succeeding,

One of the first things Castro did after he gained power in Cuba, was to visit the US , President Eisenhower refused to meet with him, instead chose to play golf that day, A big problem was the nationalization of US interests in Cuba, interests that had be illegally gained via the US support of Batista.

less than a year Year later Eisenhower ordered the CIA to begin arming and training opposition forces to overthrow Castro, a decision that culminated with the disastrous attack of Cuba during the Kennedy administration known as the Bay of Pigs. and followed by several CIA assassination attempts on Castro s life

.Yet Cuba was branded a Terrorist supporting state!!! And the US was surprised that Cuba would align it;s self with the USSR

The BBC has several very good documentaries concerning Cuba , Castro, and the history of Cuba US relationships

they can be found on Youtube

Given the above brief and superficial description of event we will never know if the Cuban Model would had succeed or failed on it's own merits .

Awww. Stalin killed 60 million. Mao killed 45 million. Castro killed thousands. How many more should the Western powers allow them to kill before responding?

There are free elections in the US, UK and even Australia. Are there free elections in Cuba, North Korea and Russia and China? Do the Free Powers kill millions of their own people to maintain control?

I realize you may think 100 million or so communists are not a big loss but they are people after all and someone should look out for them.

The USA except Obama wants regime change in Cuba because Castro is a totalitarian dictator that holds his people in slavery.

When I look back at the millions of people the communist dictators have killed I do wonder if the Free Powers should have given them more of a chance to succeed economically.

This is a Thread about Cuba and Castro, and not about Russian history. Rusian history can be explored in an other thread if interested.

I Stand by my assessment. Castro did visit the US after his rise to power, The US squandered an opportunity to develop friendly relations with Cuba, it did try to overthrow and assassinate Castro .The US was the terrorist country in this instance not Cuba

The US has normalized relationships with China, Laos, Vietnam etc.

all of whom have committed atrocities far more than Castro ever could.

So then , why not with Cuba?

Obama did the right thing, long overdue.

PS: I mentioned USSR only on the context that it was not comunism that failed but totalitarianism, Communism with out interference has never being tried, so we will never know if it is a viable governing system or not.

Edited December 22, 2014 by sirineou

[Publicus]

<<snip>>

Cuba could not be allowed to succeed, capitalist interests would not allow it. If the Cuban model was successful it might give people ideas.

It always was impossible for the Cuban "model" to be successful, witness the former USSR and so many other totalitarian communist states over the past century and into the present century.

US policy since Castro grabbed power in Cuba was to limit the damage by constraining and containing the 26th of July Revolution, and we have done that superbly.

Now it's time for a change and Prez Obama is leading in this respect, reflecting the views and will of the American people to include the Cuban exile community and Cuban Americans in general.

Castro was never going to succeed because he had it all wrong to begin with. The US imperative was to oppose totalitarian communism in our hemisphere, not to fear its impossible success. Ye of little faith!

It has being said that the communist model of governing has failed. and examples of so called communist countries that have failed are given. Look at the USSR they say, look at North Korea, look at Cuba etc.. Non of this were communist models that were allowed to succeed or fail on their own merits, these models were vehemently opposed, by capitalist forces, to defend there selves, the communist models devolved in to repressive totalitarian states . If they had not, they would have being infiltrated and destroyed.

The US did not have a problem with repression,in Cuba it was happy to support Batista, what it had was a problem with communism succeeding,

One of the first things Castro did after he gained power in Cuba, was to visit the US , President Eisenhower refused to meet with him, instead chose to play golf that day, A big problem was the nationalization of US interests in Cuba, interests that had be illegally gained via the US support of Batista.

less than a year Year later Eisenhower ordered the CIA to begin arming and training opposition forces to overthrow Castro, a decision that culminated with the disastrous attack of Cuba during the Kennedy administration known as the Bay of Pigs. and followed by several CIA assassination attempts on Castro s life

.Yet Cuba was branded a Terrorist supporting state!!! And the US was surprised that Cuba would align it;s self with the USSR

The BBC has several very good documentaries concerning Cuba , Castro, and the history of Cuba US relationships

they can be found on Youtube

Given the above brief and superficial description of event we will never know if the Cuban Model would had succeed or failed on it's own merits .

I'm writing in English and although it is not the RP of the BBC in its many Cuba documentaries over much time, I still dunno why the point bounces off so many people in these parts.

Marxism is one thing, but Marxism-Leninism is quite another kettle of fish. While neither illusion is Fabian socialism, Marxism-Leninism is an ugly beast because Lenin added 1000 years of feudal Russian tsarism to Marx and Engels, which meant that in 1917 Russia preserved totalitarianism while adding the dictatorship of the proletariat in place of the royal aristocracy. This itself was enough to assure the failure of 20th century communism, but Stalin solidified its failure by giving it the face of paranoia and a relentless appetite to mass murder his own people in the guise of humanity, notably starting with the Kulaks from very early in his reign.

Industrial society had nothing real to fear of 20th century communism...indeed the menace to industrial society has always been fascism as we experienced between the wars and as we see and have today in the CCP-PRC.

Marxism-Leninism could only fail as 20th century society moved well beyond the old constraints of totalitarianism and the primacy of the state over the individual. With the successful emergence of the middle class, the only threat 20th century communism posed to capitalism and to market principles across the board was its forceful imposition of itself on the unwilling and on those diametrically opposed to its new old order of life.

Castro wasn't ever going to succeed any more than Lenin, Stalin or Gorbechev were going to succeed....same for Tito, Allende, Mao, Deng and the Kims etc. Xi Jinping and his gang and their nasty order are next on that long list of pathetic pathologicals. The Castro brothers are older than their revolution so if need be the CIA will have its final success there in the new regime that succeeds them.

I reiterate the United States rightfully opposed Castro and his revolution because while it was inevitable Castro and his revolution would fail, it had to be constricted in every major way, because of the gross harm and damage it would do if it managed to impose itself on the US and on the hemisphere itself. Stated another way, 20th century communism, left to itself and to its own determining principles, guarantees its own failure no matter what. The primary imperative of the United States has been and continues to be to protect and to preserve itself against being needlessly raped and killed by a system that inherently, invariably, and inevitably is doomed to fail.

Edited December 22, 2014 by Publicus

[thailiketoo]

This is a Thread about Cuba and Castro, and not about Russian history. Rusian history can be explored in an other thread if interested.

I Stand by my assessment. Castro did visit the US after his rise to power, The US squandered an opportunity to develop friendly relations with Cuba, it did try to overthrow and assassinate Castro .The US was the terrorist country in this instance not Cuba

The US has normalized relationships with China, Laos, Vietnam etc.

all of whom have committed atrocities far more than Castro ever could.

So then , why not with Cuba?

Obama did the right thing, long overdue.

PS: I mentioned USSR only on the context that it was not comunism that failed but totalitarianism, Communism with out interference has never being tried, so we will never know if it is a viable governing system or not.

In April 1959, Castro accepted an invitation from the American Society of Newspaper Editors to visit the U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower had no intention of meeting with Castro.

Why did Castro come? To anger the President and in that he succeeded. Castro got angry at the questions of the press and went back home to Cuba. A free society did not fit him well. In Cuba saying something Castro does not like got one shot not so in America.

This period of history marked

Desk pounding and shoe banging nonsense from the Communist powers.

Castro aligned himself with the arch enemy of the USA. Dumb. Even Khruschev's son left Russia and is now an American citizen sheesh Castro could have been so much smarter. All he had to do was hold out his hand in friendship instead he asked Russia to use the Atomic warheads on the USA.

Edited December 22, 2014 by thailiketoo

[sirineou]

This is a Thread about Cuba and Castro, and not about Russian history. Rusian history can be explored in an other thread if interested.

I Stand by my assessment. Castro did visit the US after his rise to power, The US squandered an opportunity to develop friendly relations with Cuba, it did try to overthrow and assassinate Castro .The US was the terrorist country in this instance not Cuba

The US has normalized relationships with China, Laos, Vietnam etc.

all of whom have committed atrocities far more than Castro ever could.

So then , why not with Cuba?

Obama did the right thing, long overdue.

PS: I mentioned USSR only on the context that it was not comunism that failed but totalitarianism, Communism with out interference has never being tried, so we will never know if it is a viable governing system or not.

In April 1959, Castro accepted an invitation from the American Society of Newspaper Editors to visit the U.S. President Dwight D. Eisenhower had no intention of meeting with Castro.

Why did Castro come? To anger the President and in that he succeeded. Castro got angry at the questions of the press and went back home to Cuba. A free society did not fit him well. In Cuba saying something Castro does not like got one shot not so in America.

This period of history marked

Desk pounding and shoe banging nonsense from the Communist powers.

Castro aligned himself with the arch enemy of the USA. Dumb. Even Khruschev's son left Russia and is now an American citizen sheesh Castro could have been so much smarter.

CIA assassinations is a free society answer to free speech?

[thailiketoo]

CIA assassinations is a free society answer to free speech?

Castro wanted nuclear warheads in his country pointed at the USA 90 miles away.

Cuba does not have free speech or elections. Cuba wanted Russia to nuke the USA. Given the situation I think the USA has shown remarkable restraint.

[Publicus]

The elites of the United States know communism and totalitarianism are grim hangers on of the deep and dark past, that they have appeal only to the pre-enlightenment mindset, but that these totalitarians are dangerous aggressive types that must be managed, contained, until they self destruct.

This is the challenge, i.e., contain and manage them until they self destruct of their own fallibility. Everyone is fallible so it's always a challenge and nothing is guaranteed except a lot of patient time and careful effort to realize the goal and end game. .

It's been 55 years in the instance of Cuba with the Cold War Soviet-Cuba missile crisis defining the period, but containment has been successful concerning both the Soviet Union and Cuban communism under the Castros, and we are now emerging out of it reasonably secure and making progress, which is the whole of the idea.

The United States offered a mutually beneficial Marshall Plan equivalent to the post Soviet Russia of Yeltsin but was turned away by the Russian elites. I think the post CCP Chinese will be receptive to the idea given how Russia has turned out.

The Cubans have always known which side their bread is buttered on. They're now looking at bread and butter on the table for the first time in 55 years.

[Bwanatickey]

So what do the Cubans think, who were Cuban Soldiers shipped to Africa to be part of the real Cold War, 50 000 Cuban troops in Angola fought the West.

The unspoken War.

[sirineou]

CIA assassinations is a free society answer to free speech?

Castro wanted nuclear warheads in his country pointed at the USA 90 miles away.

Cuba does not have free speech or elections. Cuba wanted Russia to nuke the USA. Given the situation I think the USA has shown remarkable restraint.

was the bay of pigs and several assassination attempts, before he invited soviet nukes in his country or after?

I dont know, call me crazy, but if some one was trying to invade me and assassinate me,I would try to get nukes also.

by the way Did the Russians want nukes in Cuba or did they want American nukes out of Turkey ?

Edited December 22, 2014 by sirineou

[thailiketoo]

Castro wanted nuclear warheads in his country pointed at the USA 90 miles away.

Cuba does not have free speech or elections. Cuba wanted Russia to nuke the USA. Given the situation I think the USA has shown remarkable restraint.

was the bay of pigs and several assassination attempts, before he invited soviet nukes in his country or after?

I dont know, call me crazy, but if some one was trying to invade me and assassinate me,I would try to get nukes also.

by the way Did the Russians want nukes in Cuba or did they want American nukes out of Turkey ?

I don't think it was the bay of pigs or the assassination attempts rather it was the embargo that forced Cuba into the Russian sphere of influence. Now with Russia out of cash Cuba is looking for a replacement sugar daddy because their economic system has never worked.

[NanLaew]

Castro wanted nuclear warheads in his country pointed at the USA 90 miles away.

Cuba does not have free speech or elections. Cuba wanted Russia to nuke the USA. Given the situation I think the USA has shown remarkable restraint.

was the bay of pigs and several assassination attempts, before he invited soviet nukes in his country or after?

I dont know, call me crazy, but if some one was trying to invade me and assassinate me,I would try to get nukes also.

by the way Did the Russians want nukes in Cuba or did they want American nukes out of Turkey ?

I don't think it was the bay of pigs or the assassination attempts rather it was the embargo that forced Cuba into the Russian sphere of influence. Now with Russia out of cash Cuba is looking for a replacement sugar daddy because their economic system has never worked.

Is it so unacceptable that the new sugar daddy can be Uncle Sam?

[Tep]

Socialism is the hysteria of the US right sector. The US political left of center and the further out left see a complex relationship between the US and western Europe with its Social Democrat parties, as well as with the social democracy of Canada that has a number of its citizens paying as much as half their income in taxes, federal taxes especially.

Castro offered nothing of any of the systems, whether socialism, social democracy, capitalism. The Castros are communist which means they are totalitarians who rule absolutely in the name of the people they oppress and repress while they live high off the hog. Where is the Cuban middle class....where has the Cuban middle class been from 1960 to the present....it is and has been in the United States, primarily.

The United States has had to stop the export of totalitarian communism from Cuba to Latin America. It is absurdly and superficially reductionist to say Cuba is the Mouse that Roared when it was in fact the appendage of what Prez Reagan in his typical rhetorical flourish called the Evil Empire. I didn't ever vote for Reagan and I nearly vomited each time I saw his phony face on tv or in person in Washington, but he made his point with typical flair as he stood at the Berlin Wall imploring Gorbechev. The US has a wall across Texas to control inflow, not any outflow.

I voted for Barack Obama twice and if it were constitutional I'd vote for him again...this is what he could do across the board if he were a better president and if the Republican party were better Americans.

Edited by Publicus to point out the quote attributed entirely to me was not entirely written by me. The first part of the quoted post is by another poster. My post in the quote appears beginning at line 13 from the top by my count.

OK. I will drop the socialisam/communism thing for the moment. It was just the germination of an idea anyway. I was trying to get to the reason why the US has and has had such an overbearing position on Cuba. Cuba is in many ways a US creation. US influence and foreign policies contributed to the creation of the environment for the revolution and subsequently created a bogey-man out of Castro who now seems to represent everything anti-American. I think this is wholly out of proportion to reality and is partly as a result of the ongoing snub Cuba represents to the US who believes it should have more influence over a country 90miles off its shores.

What threat is or was Cuba? I don't believe Cuba posed any threat the minute after the ships with the nuclear missiles turned around and went back to Russia. Rapprochement between Cuba and the US could have started that moment. Instead, it seemed necessary for the US to maintain the pre tense of a threat from Cuba. You citing the Axis of Evil is a case in point. Apart from some mischief making with the Mariel Exodus and maybe some covert activity in the Cuban American community (who knows?), there was never any chance of Cuba achieving any aggressive foreign policy move against the US.

The Mouse that Roared? That was a response to a hypothetical scenario that you, yourself created, postulating an invasion of Communist ideology to the US from Cuba. If such a thing happened then it would have been a Mouse that Roared.

I think much of the attitude of the US to Cuba is out of proportion and has been for decades. It seems to be expressed by people from both sides of the political spectrum and to me, it stems from a manufactured bogey-man that never really posed any threat but now the time is way past to normalise arrangements many are still held in thrall by this cold war era view.

[thailiketoo]

OK. I will drop the socialisam/communism thing for the moment. It was just the germination of an idea anyway. I was trying to get to the reason why the US has and has had such an overbearing position on Cuba. Cuba is in many ways a US creation. US influence and foreign policies contributed to the creation of the environment for the revolution and subsequently created a bogey-man out of Castro who now seems to represent everything anti-American. I think this is wholly out of proportion to reality and is partly as a result of the ongoing snub Cuba represents to the US who believes it should have more influence over a country 90miles off its shores.

What threat is or was Cuba? I don't believe Cuba posed any threat the minute after the ships with the nuclear missiles turned around and went back to Russia. Rapprochement between Cuba and the US could have started that moment. Instead, it seemed necessary for the US to maintain the pre tense of a threat from Cuba. You citing the Axis of Evil is a case in point. Apart from some mischief making with the Mariel Exodus and maybe some covert activity in the Cuban American community (who knows?), there was never any chance of Cuba achieving any aggressive foreign policy move against the US.

The Mouse that Roared? That was a response to a hypothetical scenario that you, yourself created, postulating an invasion of Communist ideology to the US from Cuba. If such a thing happened then it would have been a Mouse that Roared.

I think much of the attitude of the US to Cuba is out of proportion and has been for decades. It seems to be expressed by people from both sides of the political spectrum and to me, it stems from a manufactured bogey-man that never really posed any threat but now the time is way past to normalise arrangements many are still held in thrall by this cold war era view.

The Lourdes SIGINT (Signals Intelligence) facility, located near Havana, Cuba, was the largest facility of its kind operated by the Russian Foreign Intelligence Service or FIS, outside of Russia. Located less than 100 miles (160 km) from Key West, the facility covered 28 square miles (73 km²). Construction began in July 1962.

At its peak during the Cold War, the facility was staffed by over 1,500 KGB, GRU, Cuban DGI, and Eastern Bloc technicians, engineers and intelligence operatives. In 2000, it was reported that China signed an agreement with the Cuban government to share use of the facility for its own intelligence agency.

In July 2014, reports surfaced that Russia and Cuba agreed to reopen the facility for usage by Russian intelligence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lourdes_SIGINT_Station