Ousted Thai PM's impeachment hearing tests fragile calm

[Baerboxer]

"The impeachment [against me] will not only affect me but also dim farmers’ hopes,"

I would have thought farmers hopes would have been very dim after she had forgotten to arrange payments for them before dissolving the house then lying to them several times, the hopes of the ones who took their lives over the debt this created must have been extremely dim, the record debt that the others are in now would not help either.

These hopes must have taken a turn for the better when they found out that the military had arranged for all the overdue payment.

It would seem from that statement that she seems to think she is some sort of savior of the farmers.

Is she using 'dim" as a verb or adjective? There again she wouldn't know the difference. But she and her family certainly treat the farmers as dim with the constant lies they expect them to believe and accept.

How she can keep a straight face whilst spouting all this is testimony to her good acting skills. It does seems sometimes that the Shins really believe the people love them and will readily accept any crap they come out with.

[Robby nz]

700 billion Baht to help 1.8 million rice farmers.

How many of those rice farmers were in the group 'poor to basic', how many in 'large'?

How many Baht for the 10% of the population considered to be poor? How much for other type of farmers?

Social Contract? Like in "vote for me, I hand out loads of money" ?

I can answer your questions Rubi but I will have to rely on the research of others to do it :

From a 14 page report by freedombarometer, http://freedombarometer.org/assets/pdfs/Freedom-Barometer-Special-Report-Thailands-Agrarian-Policy.pdf

So far only one million of Thailand's three million farms have participated in the rice pledging

scheme. According to a study by the World Bank, only 18% of poor farmers profited from the

subsidised prices as small producers are unable to produce large surpluses on their relatively

small planting areas. In accordance with another study by the TDRI, only 5% of the

programme's revenues reach poor farmers.

About 74,000 farmers produce between 10 and 30 tons of rice a year while only

2,300 farms produce more than 30 tons. Thus, the few farms that produce the largest amounts

also benefit the most from the rice pledging scheme

This is backed up by the Thailand development Research Institute :

You will see that there is a difference in the number of farmers in the scheme which may be explained by the FB number coming from the WB study in Dec 2012 which would have been for the 2011- 2012 year

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/tdri-says-yinglucks-rice-pledging-scheme-causes-almost-trillion-baht-loss

The research revealed that 1.77-1.78 million farmers from total 3.5-3.6 million farmers joining the scheme for the 2012-2013 harvest season.

A total of 826 rice mills and 1,685 warehouses also joined the scheme.

The scheme had 20 rice inspectors.

They concluded :

But farmers who were benefitted from the scheme were mostly rich and medium earning farmers, rather than poor and low income farmers.

It should be noted that these are only brief snips from the research papers anyone who wants to be fully informed should read the whole papers then Google some more such as the World Bank study.

[halloween]

Regardless of alleged guilt, the legal process looks is politcally driven and flawed.

There, fixed that for you.

As an aside, she has stated in another news source how could she be impeached when she no longer holds power. Can't argue with that. Although I'm sure some here will give it a go

Trying to explain anything to Yingluk would be difficult. It equates to translating the F-4 Phantom repair manual into words an Iranian high school graduate could understand.

[rubl]

If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported, they have a weak case and enough for the NLA to dismiss the case. The NACC has not conducted a thorough investigation and only obtain limited information extraction from Dem and TDRI. Their biggest mistake is not considering information from more witnesses to form an objective prosecution.

You start with an 'if' and follow with assuming that "if" is true.

I get the impression your case is weak.

[mikemac]

"The impeachment [against me] will not only affect me but also dim farmers’ hopes,"

I would have thought farmers hopes would have been very dim after she had forgotten to arrange payments for them before dissolving the house then lying to them several times, the hopes of the ones who took their lives over the debt this created must have been extremely dim, the record debt that the others are in now would not help either.

These hopes must have taken a turn for the better when they found out that the military had arranged for all the overdue payment.

It would seem from that statement that she seems to think she is some sort of savior of the farmers.

Is she using 'dim" as a verb or adjective? There again she wouldn't know the difference. But she and her family certainly treat the farmers as dim with the constant lies they expect them to believe and accept.

How she can keep a straight face whilst spouting all this is testimony to her good acting skills. It does seems sometimes that the Shins really believe the people love them and will readily accept any crap they come out with.

............."It does seems sometimes that the Shins really believe the people love them and will readily accept any crap they come out with.".....................

Well that seems to be the case with some of our fellow TVF members.

[waitforusalso]

Regardless of alleged guilt, the legal process looks is politcally driven and flawed.

There, fixed that for you.

As an aside, she has stated in another news source how could she be impeached when she no longer holds power. Can't argue with that. Although I'm sure some here will give it a go

Trying to explain anything to Yingluk would be difficult. It equates to translating the F-4 Phantom repair manual into words an Iranian high school graduate could understand.

Did you watch & critique her speech today, Einstein? She was confident, eloquent & reasoned, much more than I can say about your childish post.

[oldsailor35]

...........cripple the Shinawatra clan ...........

Music to my ears. If I bought a sledgehammer, could we do it for real?

Here is proof of how political this case is. ( cripple the Shin clan) Rather disgusting is'nt it. These people are only interested in getting rid of their strongest opposition with such cries of desperation, hatred and fear. Yes fear of their loss of power to the most popular sector of the voting public. They have not won an election since 2002 and know that this will be their last chance or hope if Yingluck is aquitted.

[Eric Loh]

Convict her and the speakers will galavanize their supporters and hardened their resolve to support Thaksin. May even win over some neutrals who are sick of the Dem, continuous power grab and disruption of their life and economy. International opinions will also be negative. Discharge the cases, PT will be stronger and win the next election. No wonder Thaksin is keeping a low profile and told his supporters to behave. He should be happy either way the cases will end.

Unless of course the Thai people are sick of the Shin lies, cheating and self enrichment schemes.

The PTP grip ain't so strong, especially now the income streams have been reduced and some are being seen to face the consequences of their corruption.

You may be right if the Shins are the only politicians that lies, cheat and corrupt in Thailand.

Good that you finally admit that the Shins lies and cheat and are corrupt. Well done in breaking your cycle of denial!

As I've said many times the lack of a real, genuine, political party that has the people's interests at heart and is not self serving is a massive problem for Thailand. What choice do they have? The old guard elite who run things for themselves, or the Shins, newer elite who run things for themselves, or the local provincial based power brokers who have their own parties who sell out to the highest bidders?

Good luck with the reforming.

Great, we can admit that others politicians are equally lairs and corrupted. Somehow the witch hunt only target the government under a Shin not Ahbisit. All need reform not selective targeting.

[oldsailor35]

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...........cripple the Shinawatra clan ...........

Music to my ears. If I bought a sledgehammer, could we do it for real?

Lets use democratic elections or call it a farce.

Yes. Democratic elections. Truly democratic. With informed voters. No bribes. No corruption.

Obvious that you have not been around here for long. You need to learn that this is indicative of all political parties in Thailand.

Not so long ago that a yellow shirt candidate on KS demanded a recount as she claimed that something dishonest was happening as she had paid for 25,000 votes and only got 14,000.

[rubl]

...........cripple the Shinawatra clan ...........

Music to my ears. If I bought a sledgehammer, could we do it for real?

Here is proof of how political this case is. ( cripple the Shin clan) Rather disgusting is'nt it. These people are only interested in getting rid of their strongest opposition with such cries of desperation, hatred and fear. Yes fear of their loss of power to the most popular sector of the voting public. They have not won an election since 2002 and know that this will be their last chance or hope if Yingluck is aquitted.

Don't worry, chuchu doesn't count. Only the evidence gathered by the NACC which tries to detail how a scheme positioned by the government as "self-financing" could rake up losses of 700 billion Baht without anyone in charge really concerned. As such a charge of 'negligence' makes sense. Of course if you take into consideration that warnings were given as early as begin of 2012 after barely three months of the scheme and that said warnings were acknowledged, minimised, countered, taken into account and so on, maybe we should move up to 'criminal negligence'.

Of course I agree with you this is disgusting. Elected elite caught with their pants down (figure of speech, no offence to Ms. Yingluck meant).

[oldsailor35]

Great job of removing all doubt Ying!! I have not had any doubts about how corrupt you and your family are for a long time now. Let's hope you get what you deserve, but I will not hold my breath for it.

Yes. Let's hope she gets what she deserves.

To be the next female PM of Thailand...............yes, thank you.

[oldsailor35]

Convict her and the speakers will galavanize their supporters and hardened their resolve to support Thaksin. May even win over some neutrals who are sick of the Dem, continuous power grab and disruption of their life and economy. International opinions will also be negative. Discharge the cases, PT will be stronger and win the next election. No wonder Thaksin is keeping a low profile and told his supporters to behave. He should be happy either way the cases will end.

Unless of course the Thai people are sick of the Shin lies, cheating and self enrichment schemes.

The PTP grip ain't so strong, especially now the income streams have been reduced and some are being seen to face the consequences of their corruption.

"Self enrichment schemes"..................I see that you also have heard of Khun Suthep . Now let me see, was'nt he deputy leader of the DEMS. In fact probably their defacto leader as the other guy ( forget his name) was too weak.

[SOTIRIOS]

.....nothing to do with the fact that hundreds of billions....probably adding up to trillions.....have disappeared....

...as for.............. 'the name'........... or.......' family thing'..........another individual with the same name...... was convicted and fled justice........

.....as for the cronies .....glorifying someone that raped and plundered this country....go figure.......

....the victims here were the Thai people......

[jayboy]

As long as there is no accountability for wrong doings, whether by politicians or protesters, then there will never be calm in this country. We will see the same cycle of corruption and power struggles until people are truly brought to justice and set an example for the next bunch of greedy power hungry parasites, as well as future generations.

& wrong doings by the military?

Yes, wrong doings by everyone!!! Or are you so biased that you think only the military should be held accountable?

You have misunderstood the point being made.He is agreeing with you that all - politicians, protestors etc - should be accountable but is gently pointing out that the military has never had to account for its long record of corruption, incompetence, political meddling and human rights abuses.Will this change now under a government ostensibly committed to reform? That is the question many are asking.So far the auguries are not favourable. Edited January 9, 2015 by jayboy

[oldsailor35]

If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported, they have a weak case and enough for the NLA to dismiss the case. The NACC has not conducted a thorough investigation and only obtain limited information extraction from Dem and TDRI. Their biggest mistake is not considering information from more witnesses to form an objective prosecution.

Have you read all the evidence?

The scheme was a shambles, billions remain unaccounted for, the poor received very little, there appears to have been no proper accounting, warning including from international organizations were rebuffed, people who raised concerns were transferred and/or intimidated, one senior red shirt leader's wife's company seems involved in export fraud connected with false export deals, and the Chair of the rice policy committee, although self appointed, never attended one meeting but was quick to confirms there were no issues, problems, losses, poor quality or anything wrong with the scheme when previously challenged.

All the above is common knowledge, in the public domain. I have not seen what additional evidence has been presented to the NLA. But based on the evidence that is publicly available Eric do you believe there were no problems in the scheme and that Yingluck carried out her associated duties efficiently, effectively and in accordance with the oaths she swore when taking up office? A yes or no will suffice.

Of course i guess that you will be presenting all this amazing evidence to the court of enquiry, or have they dismissed your dream time stories. Anyhow i will be watching for you with 'bated breath'

[oldsailor35]

One thing to consider of course is on what grounds the powers that be can impeach.

She was a democratically elected representative of the people.

The coup removed her, rightly or wrongly, dismantled the constitution as it stood and so they cannot impeach under the constitution as it no longer exists and as they have not introduced a new one so there is no legal framework.

Further this body running the country have no mandate from the people to act. How then can they impeach?

If they think that by banning her from politics the red shirts are going away then they are living in cuckoo land. They will provide another candidate who will win again.

Unless of course there is a new constitution that does not allow anyone wearing red to vote.

This is not the answer and they are creating a confrontational situation.

Well put. It just boggles the mind as to how "due process" is carried out in the land of smiles. More baffling are the westerners who stand behind the power grab and this sham impeachment .

Really baffling, to the 'nth degree.

[oldsailor35]

AFP bias come out very clear in that lot.

The whole thing is about accountability of politicians to the country and the people, they must do the job they were elected to do and if they don't or cant do it they have no right to be in the job.

Same as any other business or profession, incompetent doctors, builders, electricians and pilots can and are dumped from their jobs. Why not politicians ?

That one sector will be unhappy if this occurs should not be a factor in any decision and if that sector would make trouble because the law is being applied and they cant accept that decision then that puts them outside the law.

But there is a mechanism for dumping unpopular politicians.It is called a general election.That remedy is not now open to the Thai people.

You mean let the people decide whether or not a politician should be punished for their corruption? So if the majority of the electorate vote for a certain person that person will be above the law?

Don't confuse him.

He's confused himself.The people do not decide whether a politician should be punished for corruption; that is a matter for the courts.But at least the people have the option to remove politicians at elections if they are corrupt or indeed for any other reason.Nobody is above the law and certainly not elected officials or politicians.

In Thailand among the "good people" there is a perception that all politicians are corrupt and that it is better for government be provided by those who know best, ie the "good people".The courts are pliable and politically oriented.Current priorities are to rig the constitution so that elections will always produce the "right" result.Meanwhile the country enjoys a military government of generals on tiny salaries but generally huge wealth.They can never be voted out of office but will exit in their own good time.

And you are definitely confused.

Good argument.I can see you have thought through the issues carefully and are able to articulate your thoughts clearly.

Liked the observation "tiny salaries but generally hugh wealth"

[scorecard]

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If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported, they have a weak case and enough for the NLA to dismiss the case. The NACC has not conducted a thorough investigation and only obtain limited information extraction from Dem and TDRI. Their biggest mistake is not considering information from more witnesses to form an objective prosecution.

Have you read all the evidence?

The scheme was a shambles, billions remain unaccounted for, the poor received very little, there appears to have been no proper accounting, warning including from international organizations were rebuffed, people who raised concerns were transferred and/or intimidated, one senior red shirt leader's wife's company seems involved in export fraud connected with false export deals, and the Chair of the rice policy committee, although self appointed, never attended one meeting but was quick to confirms there were no issues, problems, losses, poor quality or anything wrong with the scheme when previously challenged.

All the above is common knowledge, in the public domain. I have not seen what additional evidence has been presented to the NLA. But based on the evidence that is publicly available Eric do you believe there were no problems in the scheme and that Yingluck carried out her associated duties efficiently, effectively and in accordance with the oaths she swore when taking up office? A yes or no will suffice.

@eric loh

You said "If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported...."

Where is it reported?

[metisdead]

A post containing paid to post nonsense has been removed.

[Eric Loh]

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If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported, they have a weak case and enough for the NLA to dismiss the case. The NACC has not conducted a thorough investigation and only obtain limited information extraction from Dem and TDRI. Their biggest mistake is not considering information from more witnesses to form an objective prosecution.

Have you read all the evidence?

The scheme was a shambles, billions remain unaccounted for, the poor received very little, there appears to have been no proper accounting, warning including from international organizations were rebuffed, people who raised concerns were transferred and/or intimidated, one senior red shirt leader's wife's company seems involved in export fraud connected with false export deals, and the Chair of the rice policy committee, although self appointed, never attended one meeting but was quick to confirms there were no issues, problems, losses, poor quality or anything wrong with the scheme when previously challenged.

All the above is common knowledge, in the public domain. I have not seen what additional evidence has been presented to the NLA. But based on the evidence that is publicly available Eric do you believe there were no problems in the scheme and that Yingluck carried out her associated duties efficiently, effectively and in accordance with the oaths she swore when taking up office? A yes or no will suffice.

@eric loh

You said "If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported...."

Where is it reported?

If you follow this case, you have read that the NACC based most of their evidence from the Dem Dr. Warong's investigation and old information by TDRI which brought a caution not to use their report. This was brought up in Yingluck's opening statement and reported in BP today.

[binjalin]

how can they impeach someone who does not hold office??? it's absurd

[wwest5829]

What's the matter?

You still have that unnaturally large headed, flat faced sister and the fruity-looking son to contend with.

Actually, thinking about it, they are a rather odd looking family.

Judging people on their appearance is a good indicator of intellect.

You'd be a pretty odd looking person then.

I never mentioned intellect there Whaleboner.

Whaleboner, your point is thus made, methinks.

[Thrilla]

how can they impeach someone who does not hold office??? it's absurd

How can posters keep presenting this absurd inanity ?

The 'legal point' is to ban politicians for their past transgressions

Please try and keep up

[jayboy]

how can they impeach someone who does not hold office??? it's absurd

How can posters keep presenting this absurd inanity ?

The 'legal point' is to ban politicians for their past transgressions

Please try and keep up

No it is you that must keep up.Various senior lawyers and legal academics have queried the use of the impeachment instrument in the case of someone who holds no office and under a constitution that no longer exists.Any crimes committed by politicians can be dealt with laws under the existing statute book - except of course those guilty of sedition and high treason that have awarded themselves free pardons.

[Robby nz]

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If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported, they have a weak case and enough for the NLA to dismiss the case. The NACC has not conducted a thorough investigation and only obtain limited information extraction from Dem and TDRI. Their biggest mistake is not considering information from more witnesses to form an objective prosecution.

Have you read all the evidence?

The scheme was a shambles, billions remain unaccounted for, the poor received very little, there appears to have been no proper accounting, warning including from international organizations were rebuffed, people who raised concerns were transferred and/or intimidated, one senior red shirt leader's wife's company seems involved in export fraud connected with false export deals, and the Chair of the rice policy committee, although self appointed, never attended one meeting but was quick to confirms there were no issues, problems, losses, poor quality or anything wrong with the scheme when previously challenged.

All the above is common knowledge, in the public domain. I have not seen what additional evidence has been presented to the NLA. But based on the evidence that is publicly available Eric do you believe there were no problems in the scheme and that Yingluck carried out her associated duties efficiently, effectively and in accordance with the oaths she swore when taking up office? A yes or no will suffice.

@eric loh

You said "If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported...."

Where is it reported?

If you follow this case, you have read that the NACC based most of their evidence from the Dem Dr. Warong's investigation and old information by TDRI which brought a caution not to use their report. This was brought up in Yingluck's opening statement and reported in BP today.

No they did not.

After the no confidence debate the Dems took the evidence they had and presented it to the NACC, that was on the 3/12/ 2012 and mainly concerned the fake G 2 G rice deals :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/600926-rice-deals-with-china-fake-thai-democrats/ NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE

Rice deals with China fake : opposition

The NACC then did an independent investigation which has taken about 2 years to complete, in that 2 years there has been much more that has come to light and been included in their report.

So much for Yinglucks 21 days.

What old information from the TDRI ?

They only produced reports in 2014. Do I have to post links to them again. You wouldnt read them anyway as they would shatter your preconceived misconceptions. Yes they were not happy that the NACC used their reports because they had not asked for nor received permission to use them.

There have also been many other reports written by reputable organisations such as the World bank, The International Grains Council and The UN Food and Agricultural Organisation,

But you will believe Yingluck before you believe anything any reputable organisation produces so its a waste of time showing them to you.

[winstonc]

One thing to consider of course is on what grounds the powers that be can impeach.

She was a democratically elected representative of the people.

The coup removed her, rightly or wrongly, dismantled the constitution as it stood and so they cannot impeach under the constitution as it no longer exists and as they have not introduced a new one so there is no legal framework.

Further this body running the country have no mandate from the people to act. How then can they impeach?

If they think that by banning her from politics the red shirts are going away then they are living in cuckoo land. They will provide another candidate who will win again.

Unless of course there is a new constitution that does not allow anyone wearing red to vote.

This is not the answer and they are creating a confrontational situation.

Well put. It just boggles the mind as to how "due process" is carried out in the land of smiles. More baffling are the westerners who stand behind the power grab and this sham impeachment .

and the fools that think ptp were pure of heart..

[Skywalker69]

Great job of removing all doubt Ying!! I have not had any doubts about how corrupt you and your family are for a long time now. Let's hope you get what you deserve, but I will not hold my breath for it.

Yes. Let's hope she gets what she deserves.

To be the next female PM of Thailand...............yes, thank you.

Can you tell us what good did Yingluck do for the people of Thailand during her time as PM?

[GinBoy2]

I love the way that some here seem to believe in a kinda pre 1914 fantasy land of a Golden age pre Thaksin. Thaksin and his clan are simply a different side of the same coin that has plagued Thailand for decades. If doesn't take much of an intellect to read about the corruption and outrageous graft of the multitude of pseudo democratic administrations, military dictatorships junta's etc post 1932 to figure out that 'if' you think getting rid of the Shin's is anywhere close to solving Thailand's ill's then you really are living in LaLa land ( aka Thailand)

[candide]

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@eric loh

You said "If the NACC only based the case on evidences from the Dem Party and TDRI as reported...."

Where is it reported?

If you follow this case, you have read that the NACC based most of their evidence from the Dem Dr. Warong's investigation and old information by TDRI which brought a caution not to use their report. This was brought up in Yingluck's opening statement and reported in BP today.

No they did not.

After the no confidence debate the Dems took the evidence they had and presented it to the NACC, that was on the 3/12/ 2012 and mainly concerned the fake G 2 G rice deals :

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/600926-rice-deals-with-china-fake-thai-democrats/NO-CONFIDENCE DEBATE

Rice deals with China fake : opposition

The NACC then did an independent investigation which has taken about 2 years to complete, in that 2 years there has been much more that has come to light and been included in their report.

So much for Yinglucks 21 days.

What old information from the TDRI ?

They only produced reports in 2014. Do I have to post links to them again. You wouldnt read them anyway as they would shatter your preconceived misconceptions. Yes they were not happy that the NACC used their reports because they had not asked for nor received permission to use them.

There have also been many other reports written by reputable organisations such as the World bank, The International Grains Council and The UN Food and Agricultural Organisation,

But you will believe Yingluck before you believe anything any reputable organisation produces so its a waste of time showing them to you.

That's an interesting point. Do you have references/sources where we can find exactly which evidence is provided by the NACC?

[tbthailand]

Give her a break. She only blew 20 billion dollars in 3 years on the rice scam. Of course it's the elites fault. The darling of Isan did nothing wrong.

does anyone have the numbers that the Dems blew on their rice-scheme?

They only had 2 1/2 years to spend taxpayer money on ricecakes, so certainly they could not have gotten close to the same numbers as the PTP.

My guess is that they were about 18 points behind.