French security forces kill gunmen, end hostage sieges

[arjunadawn]

All it is, is an opinion, not backed by anything, but your own beliefs and that is what I pointed out.

555 yes ok if you say so You may hold onto that

That they the thousand of collateral damages cited by many reputable agencies

are dead (fact/opinion?) & their families might hold a grudge (I did say might...so ok maybe my opinion/guess)

Would be drifting OT to list the stats for you but Google is your friend if you care.

The arguments that all about us is the result of blowback is nonsense. The suggestion that we make future terrorists everyday by our polices or bombing is only partially true. What is absent is the alternative. It is suggested by such arguments, or implied, that not having the actions the west does overseas would decrease terrorism. This is patently false. What is happening has happened in this very manner for millennia. There is absolutely nothing new under the sun. The self loathing critique that makes the west responsible for its own rape is absurd. Our current situation is born of the information, social media age of immediate communication, and islam's use of these tools. If the West retreated solely into isolationism, stopped support of Israel, all that would be left would be immediate war upon Israel, consolidation of collective forces, and then turning on the west to war upon the west at home. Islam means submission, not peace. The dar al harb (House of War) is the state Islam exists in until it achieves the dar al salam (House of Peace)- global domination and submission. This is THE central tenet of Islam. How on earth this can be excused or overlooked escapes me? Islam is in the dar al harb. When there is global shar'ia there is the House of Peace.

[arjunadawn]

Delete dual post

Edited January 12, 2015 by arjunadawn

[alanrchase]

Interesting post. Unfortunately dar al salam is unachievable. They (muslims) do not .like each other. Christans are very similar. The world is what it is.

[Morch]

Is this a turning point? In last 20 or so years the world has witnessed numerous terrorist attacks by these groups mostly against innocent unarmed civilians. Is it not time for free people and their governments to eradicate this disease. You're either with us or against us, take your choice, live peacefully or die, take NO prisoners. These people of radical Islam are like rabid dogs, once the disease is in their brains there is only one option, death!

Indeed, twenty innocent people murdered in France, like it or not this is far more newsworthy than the 5000 murdered by Islamic extremists worldwide last November. I think you may be right though, less than a month ago we had three so called lone wolf attacks in France, which we were told were unrelated, due to mentally ill individuals and nothing to do with Islam. Well the recent atrocities have buried that lie, hopefully once and for all. The west is fighting an ideological war with an alien hostile ideology, the murderers were doing no more than enforcing their own laws as they see them. Everyone who believes in Sharia law taking precedence over national laws is complicit in this, the numbers are huge, over 65% of Muslims polled in five continental European Countries. This can't end well, but I think it has now begun, we are at war.

It would be ever so much clearer if everyone was on the same page about such trivialities as who are "We"? Who are "We" exactly at war with? What are "our" goals?

[Morch]

RT @piersmorgan: Astonishing > RT @SteveDennis71: VIDEO: Extraordinary footage of police storming kocher supermarket #Parisattacks http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2edu5n_exclusif-france-2-les-images-du-face-a-face-entre-le-raid-et-amedy-coulibaly-lors-de-l-assaut-porte_news

"People sleep peacefully in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - author in dispute.

I cannot agree people sleep peacefully because the citizens of their country will defend it, you do not have to be rough to support your country and protect your fellow citizen.

.

That's true.

Every man has his purpose in life.

Some need to be protected, while others are protectors. NeverSure and I fall into group two.

Does it mean keyboard warriors count as rough men?

[Morch]

Is this a turning point? In last 20 or so years the world has witnessed numerous terrorist attacks by these groups mostly against innocent unarmed civilians. Is it not time for free people and their governments to eradicate this disease. You're either with us or against us, take your choice, live peacefully or die, take NO prisoners. These people of radical Islam are like rabid dogs, once the disease is in their brains there is only one option, death!

Indeed, twenty innocent people murdered in France, like it or not this is far more newsworthy than the 5000 murdered by Islamic extremists worldwide last November. I think you may be right though, less than a month ago we had three so called lone wolf attacks in France, which we were told were unrelated, due to mentally ill individuals and nothing to do with Islam. Well the recent atrocities have buried that lie, hopefully once and for all. The west is fighting an ideological war with an alien hostile ideology, the murderers were doing no more than enforcing their own laws as they see them. Everyone who believes in Sharia law taking precedence over national laws is complicit in this, the numbers are huge, over 65% of Muslims polled in five continental European Countries. This can't end well, but I think it has now begun, we are at war.

Now Brunei has declared sharia law and banned celebrating Christmas, it's time to vote with you feet and STOP BUYING SHELL products !

Great idea, but why stop there? Shouldn't we avoid all petroleum related products by companies operating in the Persian Gulf? Or would that be too inconvenient?

[alanrchase]

Is this a turning point? In last 20 or so years the world has witnessed numerous terrorist attacks by these groups mostly against innocent unarmed civilians. Is it not time for free people and their governments to eradicate this disease. You're either with us or against us, take your choice, live peacefully or die, take NO prisoners. These people of radical Islam are like rabid dogs, once the disease is in their brains there is only one option, death!

Indeed, twenty innocent people murdered in France, like it or not this is far more newsworthy than the 5000 murdered by Islamic extremists worldwide last November. I think you may be right though, less than a month ago we had three so called lone wolf attacks in France, which we were told were unrelated, due to mentally ill individuals and nothing to do with Islam. Well the recent atrocities have buried that lie, hopefully once and for all. The west is fighting an ideological war with an alien hostile ideology, the murderers were doing no more than enforcing their own laws as they see them. Everyone who believes in Sharia law taking precedence over national laws is complicit in this, the numbers are huge, over 65% of Muslims polled in five continental European Countries. This can't end well, but I think it has now begun, we are at war.

Now Brunei has declared sharia law and banned celebrating Christmas, it's time to vote with you feet and STOP BUYING SHELL products !

Great idea, but why stop there? Shouldn't we avoid all petroleum related products by companies operating in the Persian Gulf? Or would that be too inconvenient?

Have you any idea where your petrol originates?

[Morch]

Funny how the good Muslims never know about the planned terrorist attacks? Its time to send all Muslims to the middle east and close the boarders for say 100 years. Then they can sort out the internal problems and maybe decide if they are part of the humane race.

Do you know everything that goes on in your community?

Do you know the aims, plans and intentions of everyone who is affiliated with whatever belief system you hold on to?

Do you imagine all Muslims get a super secret sms before Muslim terrorist attacks?

[Morch]

Indeed, twenty innocent people murdered in France, like it or not this is far more newsworthy than the 5000 murdered by Islamic extremists worldwide last November. I think you may be right though, less than a month ago we had three so called lone wolf attacks in France, which we were told were unrelated, due to mentally ill individuals and nothing to do with Islam. Well the recent atrocities have buried that lie, hopefully once and for all. The west is fighting an ideological war with an alien hostile ideology, the murderers were doing no more than enforcing their own laws as they see them. Everyone who believes in Sharia law taking precedence over national laws is complicit in this, the numbers are huge, over 65% of Muslims polled in five continental European Countries. This can't end well, but I think it has now begun, we are at war.

Now Brunei has declared sharia law and banned celebrating Christmas, it's time to vote with you feet and STOP BUYING SHELL products !

Great idea, but why stop there? Shouldn't we avoid all petroleum related products by companies operating in the Persian Gulf? Or would that be too inconvenient?

Have you any idea where your petrol originates?

Of course, at the nearest pump station. .

Happens to be Shell.

[Steely Dan]

Funny how the good Muslims never know about the planned terrorist attacks? Its time to send all Muslims to the middle east and close the boarders for say 100 years. Then they can sort out the internal problems and maybe decide if they are part of the humane race.

Do you imagine all Muslims get a super secret sms before Muslim terrorist attacks?

Well the Jews did before 9/11.

[Morch]

Hayat Boumeddiene Amedi Coulibaly girlfriend (Montrouge and Porte de Vincennes terrorist) is still actively sought by french police.

Bad hair day?

[Morch]

If we've learned anything about terrorism is that catching/killing them is never the end of it.

Ben Laden was killed, dozens came behind to take over from where he left it.

What we need to address is the root of terrorism which is far more complex

We can explore and address the root of terrorism, and meanwhile weed out whatever grows up.

One does not exclude the other.

[Morch]

How can you disprove Islam's promises Mr. Educator? It's practically impossible...as impossible as disproving karma...'God' etc. We need totalitarian style measures. ..and new governments to implemen them. This or eventual demographic submersion and dhimmihood. Everything else is liberal wishful thinking.

.

We need totalitarian style measures.

Are you freaking serious?

I'm afraid he is, Heijo.

Not only him, but post after post on this Forum and everywhere, suggesting that the best way to address fundamentalist intolerance and violence is ... to stop tolerating these people and simply kill them. Massively.

It illustrates the level of 'intelligence' which now prevails among the so-called 'educated' part of the world, and shows where we're headed.

I have stated repeatedly "I just don't know what the solution is." However, you clearly indicate one solution is very wrong (it may be, I don't know). So, please... give us something. What is a solution short of the madness solution above that you object to?

We don't have a clear answer, so lets go for totalitarian dictatorship. Did someone press the panic button?

Obviously things done presently are not enough and not good enough. A lot could be improved by applying somewhat stricter measures to do with immigration and law enforcement. It would have some implications regarding freedoms and human rights, but perhaps not to the degree where Democracy and freedom take too much of a hit.

Still on domestic grounds, but thinking longer term - authorities would need to do better a job of integrating Muslims into Western society. This, of course, to exclude those uninterested, beyond reach of reason and those breaking the law. Ban preaching of the bits directly opposed to Western culture and the law. Nurture whatever elements of communities that go along with the program.

Out in the world, things are more complicated:

First and foremost, there needs to be an accepted policy regarding the ways Muslim countries and organizations are to be engaged. The West represents a currently unsurpassed bargaining power if it could form a united front and sticks to it. This is without getting into military might.

It needs to be acknowledged that Islam, as a whole, will not be "eradicated". This will not happen if history is any indication of such things. Better not set unattainable goals, even if they were worthy. So, clear aims need to be set - obviously, the West got little issues with Muslims butchering one another, or with human right violations in Muslim countries. If it did, things would have gone way different. The West is after no leakage of Islam-related violence to the West, and maintaining control over natural resources, markets and geographical strategic points.

Engaging the Muslim world as a whole is not an option, and a sure recipe for failure. Divide and rule. Pick the most likely target to crumble and apply a strict regime of carrot and stick. If and when the carrot option seemed to be taken, move on to the next. Institute a clear scale of slippage, apply stick as needed. Regardless of the above, whenever a weed raises its head, wherever, deal with it. Stick, no carrot.

At the same time, explore and apply an ongoing mass campaign of any non-violent measure known to man as causing decline in devotion. There are enough material temptations, philosophical doubts, moral issue and good old plain education which could be employed. Let the PsyOps boys do their thing as well. This is long term and will not make the problems go away - but it may plant seeds for the future.

This is definitely not a liberal point of view, nor is it entirely a pitchfork brigade crusade style effort. It can seem rather bleak, both on the home front and abroad. Possible lose of freedom, no global humanistic message, and yet no clear victory, but more of a sustained stalemate with, hopefully, a slow trickle of improvement. Not as alluring as global war or, alternatively, holding hands and singing Kumbaya - but at least, maybe not as horrible a prospect or as delusional as these two other options.

There are, of course, many issues, holes and faults with all of this. Well aware of most. It was more by way of demonstrating that jumping headfirst into a totalitarian regime might not be, on the whole, the best choice. As a further disclaimer - not exactly sure that I would actually subscribe to all the things mentioned, and I keep my God given right to change my mind at a whim.

[Morch]

Funny how the good Muslims never know about the planned terrorist attacks? Its time to send all Muslims to the middle east and close the boarders for say 100 years. Then they can sort out the internal problems and maybe decide if they are part of the humane race.

Do you imagine all Muslims get a super secret sms before Muslim terrorist attacks?

Well the Jews did before 9/11.

Well, as long as Jews are mentioned - how did trying to eradicate that religion go? Efforts been taken up every now and then, and while numbers were never much compared to Muslims, somehow it did not work out. Given this example, can't understand why some people seem to be awfully confident of being able to even put a dent in Islam.

[redandyellow]

It's 2015, but we may as well still be in the first century BC, because it's exactly the same - eye for eye, tooth for tooth

the more things change, the more they stay the same

[arjunadawn]

We don't have a clear answer, so lets go for totalitarian dictatorship. Did someone press the panic button?

Obviously things done presently are not enough and not good enough. A lot could be improved by applying somewhat stricter measures to do with immigration and law enforcement. It would have some implications regarding freedoms and human rights, but perhaps not to the degree where Democracy and freedom take too much of a hit.

Still on domestic grounds, but thinking longer term - authorities would need to do better a job of integrating Muslims into Western society. This, of course, to exclude those uninterested, beyond reach of reason and those breaking the law. Ban preaching of the bits directly opposed to Western culture and the law. Nurture whatever elements of communities that go along with the program.

Out in the world, things are more complicated:

First and foremost, there needs to be an accepted policy regarding the ways Muslim countries and organizations are to be engaged. The West represents a currently unsurpassed bargaining power if it could form a united front and sticks to it. This is without getting into military might.

It needs to be acknowledged that Islam, as a whole, will not be "eradicated". This will not happen if history is any indication of such things. Better not set unattainable goals, even if they were worthy. So, clear aims need to be set - obviously, the West got little issues with Muslims butchering one another, or with human right violations in Muslim countries. If it did, things would have gone way different. The West is after no leakage of Islam-related violence to the West, and maintaining control over natural resources, markets and geographical strategic points.

Engaging the Muslim world as a whole is not an option, and a sure recipe for failure. Divide and rule. Pick the most likely target to crumble and apply a strict regime of carrot and stick. If and when the carrot option seemed to be taken, move on to the next. Institute a clear scale of slippage, apply stick as needed. Regardless of the above, whenever a weed raises its head, wherever, deal with it. Stick, no carrot.

At the same time, explore and apply an ongoing mass campaign of any non-violent measure known to man as causing decline in devotion. There are enough material temptations, philosophical doubts, moral issue and good old plain education which could be employed. Let the PsyOps boys do their thing as well. This is long term and will not make the problems go away - but it may plant seeds for the future.

This is definitely not a liberal point of view, nor is it entirely a pitchfork brigade crusade style effort. It can seem rather bleak, both on the home front and abroad. Possible lose of freedom, no global humanistic message, and yet no clear victory, but more of a sustained stalemate with, hopefully, a slow trickle of improvement. Not as alluring as global war or, alternatively, holding hands and singing Kumbaya - but at least, maybe not as horrible a prospect or as delusional as these two other options.

There are, of course, many issues, holes and faults with all of this. Well aware of most. It was more by way of demonstrating that jumping headfirst into a totalitarian regime might not be, on the whole, the best choice. As a further disclaimer - not exactly sure that I would actually subscribe to all the things mentioned, and I keep my God given right to change my mind at a whim.

I think this is one of the more thoughtful solution efforts I have read; thank you. I get the sarcasm in the first line. It is my concern as well. As you gathered your thoughts, jockeyed them about in your mind a bit, then choose which to put to paper, I think you too realized as I do how damn complicated this really is. Somewhere in your post though is a seed of something that concerns me greatly and that regards engaging the muslim world as a whole. It is my strongest conviction that the motivation for a caliphate is much more than just islamic jihadists. IMO elements in the West believe a singular voice for the now fractured sunni muslim world would provide much needed internal policing and external treaties and commerce, and a total counterweight to shia Iran. I really do believe that current policies seem to favor that end.

If asked, then, why it seems the West is objecting to IS in Syria my response would mostly be "really; are they?" Syria is of note because its a natural extension of shia Iran and enables its contiguous reach to the sea. The nascent IS caliphate is of concern only so far as it does not appear to be Muslim Brotherhood ordained; and at least the US administration is entirely in the pocket of the MB. MB has been working toward a caliphate for a very long time with them of course running it. When agreement is finally reached between IS and the MB then the deal will be complete. I do not believe because the MB are not initially installed as caliph that they would risk deposing a newly born caliphate. I simply believe the West does want a singular voice to engage the muslim world. The most frightening part of this is the islamic eschatology anticipates a chain of actions to facilitate the end of times that lead to global jihad and the House of Peace. The jihad genie will not easily return to the bottle, regardless of a caliph. The West totally misses the great unintended consequence of such policies.

[wilcopops]

Its time to stop this blight of evil idiots. Given their absolute disregard for all life, where innocent people are hostages and their deaths are a statement of support for their god, its time to eradicate them like a cancer.

The basic tenant of tolerant western culture is live and let life.

If anything disagrees with this its got to be removed.

Kill these terrorists like a cancer.

Abdul Hamza just received life imprisonment in Colorado superman prison, what a waste of a good bullet.

Indeed, it's time stop pussyfooting around anything Islamic and do what's needed to eradicate.

I think some people need to read up on how cancersvare treated and what makes them spread

[Mosha]

Hayat Boumeddiene Amedi Coulibaly girlfriend (Montrouge and Porte de Vincennes terrorist) is still actively sought by french police.

Bad hair day?

Too late she's in Syria. Turkish authorities say no one asked us to detain her.

[sambum]

In reply to MORCH Post No #136 dated 12 Jan:-

Good post, and it does show a great deal of thought has gone into it. I especially agree with the point that to try to eradicate Islam entirely is a lost cause. However, yes, let them get on with it in their own Middle East Countries, but if they want to come to the "West", they should accept our rules and regs. As many leaders have said already - "You are welcome to come here, but you have to integrate into OUR society, not the other way round" Unfortunately, these leaders do not seem to have the backbone to back up what they say - hence the situation where you have Muslim "clerics" preaching hate on the streets of London without fear of repercussions. Many years ago when the coal miners in the UK were making protests about the pit closures by the "Iron Lady", they were given short shrift by the government, and the police and Army soon put paid to them. Why not do the same when these disenchanted Muslim extremists preach their messages of hate against OUR society? Can you imagine Christians being allowed to do the same in some Middle East countries? This is one of the most undesirable effects of free speech, and one suggestion to remedy that would be to say "When Christians are allowed to protest on the streets of your predominantly Muslim Middle Eastern cities, then you can protest on the predominantly Christian streets of our Western cities, but until then, we will treat you in our countries, the same way as we would be treated in yours!"

P.S. I am not sure whether I agree with your final sentence!