War crimes court opens probe into Palestinian territories

[Lite Beer]

War crimes court opens probe into Palestinian territories
MIKE CORDER, Associated Press

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court launched a preliminary probe Friday that could clear the way for a full-scale investigation into possible war crimes in Palestinian territories — plunging the court into the most politically charged conflict it has ever tackled.

Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda said in a statement she will conduct the preliminary examination with "full independence and impartiality."

Potential cases Bensouda could take on include allegations of war crimes by Israel during last summer's Gaza war where the Palestinians suffered heavy civilian casualties. Israel's settlement construction on occupied Palestinian lands could also be examined.

The cases could also include alleged war crimes by Hamas, which controls Gaza, including the firing of thousands of rockets at Israeli residential areas from crowded neighborhoods.

The prosecutor's announcement comes after the Palestinian Authority acceded to The Hague-based court's founding treaty and recognized its jurisdiction dating back to July, the eve of the last Gaza war. That move opened the door to an ICC investigation that could target possible crimes by both Israel, which is not a member of the court, and Palestinians.

A preliminary examination is not an investigation, but weighs information about possible crimes and jurisdiction issues to establish whether a full investigation is merited.

Palestinian Foreign Minister Riad Malki welcomed the move and said the Palestinian Authority would cooperate.

"The Palestinian people called upon us to go to court and ask for an investigation and therefore we consider the announcement today as a historic event," he said.

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu slammed the decision and its timing.

"It is scandalous that just a few days after terrorists slaughtered Jews in France, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court opens a probe against the state of Israel because we protected our citizens against Hamas, a terror organization that is in a covenant with the Palestinian Authority, and whose war criminals fired thousands of rockets at civilians in Israel," Netanyahu said. "Unfortunately it turns the International Criminal Court into part of the problem and not part of the solution."

Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman criticized the probe as stemming "entirely from political and anti-Israel considerations" and said he would recommend not cooperating.

Israel has accused Hamas, the Islamic militant group sworn to Israel's destruction that rules Gaza, of using Palestinian civilians as human shields by launching rockets and carrying out other attacks from within crowded neighborhoods, while purposely attacking civilians in Israel.

Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas signed documents to join the ICC a day after the U.N. Security Council rejected a resolution Dec. 30 that would have set a three-year deadline for the establishment of a Palestinian state on lands occupied by Israel.

Joining the ICC is part of a broader Palestinian strategy to pressure Israel into withdrawing from the occupied territories and agreeing to Palestinian statehood. Abbas had been under heavy domestic pressure to take stronger action against Israel after the 50-day war between the Jewish state and militants in Gaza over the summer, tensions over holy sites in Jerusalem and the failure of the last round of U.S.-led peace talks.

Israel retaliated to the Palestinian move to join the ICC by freezing the transfer of more than $100 million a month in taxes it collects for the Palestinians.

In Washington, the U.S. State Department said the court's action as "counterproductive to the cause of peace."

"It is a tragic irony that Israel, which has withstood thousands of terrorist rockets fired at its civilians and its neighborhoods, is now being scrutinized by the ICC. The place to resolve the differences between the parties is through direct negotiations, not unilateral actions by either side," Jeff Rathke, the director of the State Department's office of press relations, said in the statement.

Bensouda cast the decision to open a preliminary probe as procedural following the Palestinians' recognition of the court. It is unclear how long the preliminary examination might take. Bensouda said "there are no timelines" set in the court's founding treaty.

The prosecutor is currently conducting eight preliminary examinations in Honduras, Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, Georgia, Guinea and Nigeria. Some have been going on for years.

Judges at the court must approve any request by the prosecution office for a full investigation.

Richard Dicker, head of the international justice program at Human Rights Watch, said the preliminary probe, "is potentially a step toward reducing impunity in a conflict that has left thousands of victims without justice. As the prosecutor's office determines whether a formal investigation is warranted, we expect that it will scrutinize alleged crimes impartially regardless of the perpetrators. Other countries should refrain from politicizing the examination, and let the prosecutor do her job."

Established in 2002, the court has struggled to live up to high expectations that it would end impunity for high-ranking perpetrators of atrocities in conflicts around the globe.

It has completed only three trials, ending in two convictions and an acquittal, all of rebel leaders from the Democratic Republic of Congo.

The court has no police force to secure crime scenes, gather evidence and arrest suspects and has repeatedly had trouble gaining custody of indicted suspects such as Sudanese President Omar al-Bashir, who has been charged with genocide in the conflict-torn Darfur region of his country.

___

Associated Press writers Ian Deitch in Jerusalem, Mohammed Daraghmeh in Ramallah and Edith M. Lederer at the United Nations contributed.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-01-17

[granuaile]

I think it is a good move... I believe war crimes have been committed on both sides, even from the early days before the founding of Israel, in fact terrorism was a major strategy of Zionists prior to that and many of the individuals involved in them rose inside the Israeli government, I think the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla by Lebanese Christian militias can be laid at the feet of their sponsors (Israel), and I think that the razing of homes and replacing Palestinian communities with Israeli ones is a war crime. That said, I think more recently groups like Hamas have also committed war crimes, not only against Jews in Israel but against their own population. Just my view and I'm not going to get in any big arguments about it. People can agree or disagree, that's OK.

[snottgoblin]

Considering the vigorous campaign conducted by the Israelis who have pursued war crime suspects from W.W.2. its gong to be interesting to see and indeed hear the Israeli reaction to this matter .

The same goes for the Palestinian side as well,both sides are guilty of war crimes.

Wonder if any third party nations may be incriminated due to supply of ordinance and training as well as financial and advisory services etc?

[Seastallion]

"It is scandalous that just a few days after terrorists slaughtered Jews in France, the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court opens a probe against the state of Israel because we protected our citizens against Hamas, a terror organization that is in a covenant with the Palestinian Authority,......"

Victim card yet again. I really don't see why French victims of terrorism can be an excuse to not investigate Israeli war crimes. Why on earth would that be? He could follow that logic with, "This is a bad time to investigate Hamas' crimes a few days after a drone attack killed some Pakistani Muslims".

And he's ignoring that Hamas will be investigated too.

And he's ignoring that Israels crimes are not just their "defence" acts (read "aggression"), but crimes with regard to occupation and crimes to do with illegal types of weapons.

[car720]

If we take the emotion away from both sides of this argument then can it not be said that if two teams dispute a goal then they should both agree to an independent judiciary.

This is what appears to be happening here. One side is saying we will cooperate with an outside judge and the other side is saying we will not.

Why?????

[oneday]

"...The cases could also include alleged war crimes by Hamas, which controls Gaza,.."

If they DO NOT open a reciprocal investigation into Palestinian crimes against Israel then it's all nothing, but a big farce.

[Jingthing]

The bigger picture: Abbas as he fades away into the political sunset is looking for some kind of political relevance for what he has done for his people, which so far, is basically NOTHING.

[Seastallion]

If we take the emotion away from both sides of this argument then can it not be said that if two teams dispute a goal then they should both agree to an independent judiciary.

This is what appears to be happening here. One side is saying we will cooperate with an outside judge and the other side is saying we will not.

Why?????

Yes, why? I can not understand what Israel is afraid of if they have no agenda or crimes to hide.

To answer, "Because the UN and the ICC are biased" is disingenuous. If the UN appears to come down hard on any particular country, maybe it's because that country often does things that warrant censure.

[Seastallion]

The bigger picture: Abbas as he fades away into the political sunset is looking for some kind of political relevance for what he has done for his people, which so far, is basically NOTHING.

You'd be right if you said that before he got Palestine signed up to the ICC. Actually, wasn't he in power when Palestine was admitted as a non-member observer state to the UN? That was positive progress too.

I suppose another good achievement is how he has reined in the PA. No longer a terrorist organisation. Positive.

[hard124get]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

[ezzra]

He who's without sin... let him cast the first stone... nuff said....

[Jingthing]

He who's without sin... let him cast the first stone... nuff said....

Or rocket ...

[Morch]

If we take the emotion away from both sides of this argument then can it not be said that if two teams dispute a goal then they should both agree to an independent judiciary.

This is what appears to be happening here. One side is saying we will cooperate with an outside judge and the other side is saying we will not.

Why?????

Yes, why? I can not understand what Israel is afraid of if they have no agenda or crimes to hide.

To answer, "Because the UN and the ICC are biased" is disingenuous. If the UN appears to come down hard on any particular country, maybe it's because that country often does things that warrant censure.

Because the UN and some of its related bodies are indeed biased.

No amount of words will disprove this. Check UNHRC (previously UNCHR) resolutions are - about half deal with Israel. And this is supposed to be a body addressing human rights issues globally. Israel may be bad, but it does not account for half of the World's human rights issues, not by a long shot. Does having the likes of Saudi Arabia on the UNHRC strike anyone as being objective, reasonable or fair? http://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/Pages/CurrentMembers.aspx

UNSC, where often the USA is criticized by its use of veto right to shield Israel - rightly or not, this does not happen in a vacuum, but does have something to do with the one sided way resolutions are brought up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroponte_doctrine

The UN is based on votes by individual countries. To say that countries vote is always, or even usually, independent of outside considerations and national interests would be rather naive. Any negative resolution vote can automatically rely on the votes of almost all Arab and Muslim countries, which is quite of a head-start. When this is translated to UN organizations and bodies, the odds could even be worse.

By your own logic, Saudi Arabia does not have an human rights issues, Syria does not have a raging civil war, Nigeria enjoys an unprecedented period of peace and China is the best neighbor a country could wish for.

[Morch]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

[Morch]

If we take the emotion away from both sides of this argument then can it not be said that if two teams dispute a goal then they should both agree to an independent judiciary.

This is what appears to be happening here. One side is saying we will cooperate with an outside judge and the other side is saying we will not.

Why?????

You said yourself that sides "should both agree to an independent judiciary". So if the Palestinian side decides unilaterally who to turn to, how does it make an agreed upon decision by both sides?

Israel does is not a member of the ICC because it has a rather long experience of dealing with the UN and its various bodies. To say that the UN is independent, objective and fair would be incorrect. It is a political marketplace, and its decisions reflect power plays and interests. Not so different from national level politics.

Furthermore, the ICC will not mediate between Israel and the Palestinians. It might, if things come to that, investigate and rule on specific incidents.

What is happening here is that one sides applies diplomatic pressure on the other, nothing new.

[konying]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

Alleged? Is it case of denial or blunt Arab propaganda?

Care to share what measuring cup is and your references?

As usual Arabs make 1 smart move followed by 10 retarded ones .

Today they were burning French flags in East Jerusalem, no doubt would help their cause, not!

Hamas would be found guilty of war crimes which would create yet another conflict between Hamas and Fatah.

Hamas already expressed its displeasure of Fatah actions.

Once Hamas leaders are guilty, they will not be able to hide out in Qatar or yet another conflict .

I guess its a good thing Arabs always put peace above all else;)

[Scott]

A baiting post has been removed.

[up-country_sinclair]

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court launched a preliminary probe Friday that could clear the way for a full-scale investigation into possible war crimes in Palestinian territories

Many said this day of justice would never come, but it's nearly here.

Many continue to say other larger and more significant events will never come to pass. But God willing, they might.

[mania]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951[/size]

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens & Hamas does not?

If Israel's best effort is asking American Taxpayers to bend over & spell Run

well I guess I agree since they milk us for 8.5 Million USD a DAY!

Hamas or more deservedly Palestine gets 0 USD per day in that type of aid.

So please...........Israel invests in begging thru lobbyist & what ever back room deals

of other peoples money to protect<sic> theirs

[NeverSure]

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court launched a preliminary probe Friday that could clear the way for a full-scale investigation into possible war crimes in Palestinian territories

Many said this day of justice would never come, but it's nearly here.

Many continue to say other larger and more significant events will never come to pass. But God willing, they might.

Keep clapping. It won't do any good.

1. There is no nation called Palestine and there never was in history.

2. There isn't a people called "Palestinians" and there never was until Arafat and the PLO (terrorist organization aligned with the Black Panthers) called themselves that beginning in the late 1980's.

3. There is no international court which has jurisdiction over Israel. All the anti Semitics can do is mouth off.

4. Israel is an extremely powerful nation militarily - a member of The Group of Five. Who's going to come and get them?

This is all noise designed to get some attention for terrorist rocket launchers, or so they hope. It won't work. People have already chosen sides and those who are on the side of the terrorists will lose every time.

[Morch]

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) — The prosecutor of the International Criminal Court launched a preliminary probe Friday that could clear the way for a full-scale investigation into possible war crimes in Palestinian territories

Many said this day of justice would never come, but it's nearly here.

Many continue to say other larger and more significant events will never come to pass. But God willing, they might.

Reality check based on the OP:

A preliminary examination is not an investigation, but weighs information about possible crimes and jurisdiction issues to establish whether a full investigation is merited.....

The prosecutor is currently conducting eight preliminary examinations in Honduras, Ukraine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, Georgia, Guinea and Nigeria. Some have been going on for years....

It has completed only three trials, ending in two convictions and an acquittal, all of rebel leaders from the Democratic Republic of Congo.

[Morch]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951[/size]

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens & Hamas does not?

If Israel's best effort is asking American Taxpayers to bend over & spell Run

well I guess I agree since they milk us for 8.5 Million USD a DAY!

Hamas or more deservedly Palestine gets 0 USD per day in that type of aid.

So please...........Israel invests in begging thru lobbyist & what ever back room deals

of other peoples money to protect<sic> theirs

Keeping harping on the same talking point while disregarding facts will not change the way things are.

This been gone through many times on this forum - most of the USA security related funding to Israel is being spent in the USA, buying from USA firms. Not all of it, most. Objections could be made on moral grounds, or on claiming that it does not serve the USA's interests, but that is not quite the same thing as claiming all those tax dollars are given away to Israel.

Regardless of this well worn issue, Israel invests in shelters, alarms, and other means of passive defense. Hamas, on the other hand, builds underground facilities to be used solely by leadership and its military wing. Ordinary Gazans are encouraged to go up on the roofs during attacks. So yes, there is a difference there, USA aid notwithstanding

The ICC thing has very little to do with USA aid to Israel. Rather than raging at Israel, would have made more sense turning all that anger against successive USA administrations upholding this policy.

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed.

[Seastallion]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

It's the thought (of firing rockets) that counts and not their actual toll??? Nearly 2000 dead in retaliation for thoughts!!

Astounding callousness and a very desperate grasp for a justification that I didn't expect from you.

[Morch]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

It's the thought (of firing rockets) that counts and not their actual toll??? Nearly 2000 dead in retaliation for thoughts!!

Astounding callousness and a very desperate grasp for a justification that I didn't expect from you.

But, on the other hand, exactly the sort of word-twisting faux emotional comment I learned to expect in turn.

The Palestinian casualties were not killed in retaliation to at thought, the rockets fired at Israel were not imaginary.

The obvious meaning was that the intention behind an action in germane.

Not a hard concept to grasp, and not one meriting the hyperbole indignation.

It was not even even a justification of Israel's action, but rather an explanation given in response to the previous post.

[mania]

This been gone through many times on this forum - most of the USA security related funding to Israel is being spent in the USA, buying from USA firms. Not all of it, most. Objections could be made on moral grounds, or on claiming that it does not serve the USA's interests, but that is not quite the same thing as claiming all those tax dollars are given away to Israel.

Gone thru does not make it accurate.

Yes 30 Billion agreed in 2007 I believe it was called Memorandum Of Understanding

over next 10 years & 74% to be spent on US made military goods & service...what is 26% of 30 billion? Pocket change??

Lastly it is not as many like to suggest all military aid...There is many other types of welfare we the US pay to this

illegitimate stepchild we are saddled with

Loan guarantees etc etc etc

http://www.wrmea.org/congress-u.s.-aid-to-israel/u.s.-financial-aid-to-israel-figures-facts-and-impact.html

Not to mention if we go back from 1949 till roughly 2011 the US gave Israel 101 Billion USD in aid.

Of which 53 billion was military aid...so there is a nice chunk that is NOT military aid as much as many

like to claim it is all aid & "mostly" re-spent in the USA

The ICC thing has very little to do with USA aid to Israel.

Rather than raging at Israel, would have made more sense turning all that anger against successive USA administrations upholding this policy.

I did not bring it up you did with your suggestion

"That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated"

I was suggesting Israel has the benefit of being a welfare recipient of the US due to their lobbyist etc...As such has that option afforded<sic> them

As for anger....None here thanks....Disgust? Oh yes plenty ....& yes thank you have written my reps many times

Why would I as a US taxpayer not be disgusted by this wrongful handout to one who not only does not deserve it but has been no friend to the US?

Why would we want to be pals with such poor example of a government? Their track record would be deemed off topic & deleted so will leave it at that.

But those who know the history know what they are

Edited January 18, 2015 by mania

[ggold]

PA says it’ll drop war crimes suit if settlements frozen

Read more: PA says it'll drop war crimes suit if settlements frozen | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-says-itll-drop-war-crimes-suit-if-settlements-frozen/#ixzz3PAGsBBkz

The official told The Times of Israel that land seizures in occupied territory constituted a clear violation of international law. Still, he noted that the appeal to the ICC would be withdrawn if Israel were to freeze settlement construction, and added that the Palestinian Authority had conveyed to Israel an official message to that effect, through Jordan and Egypt.

[Morch]

This been gone through many times on this forum - most of the USA security related funding to Israel is being spent in the USA, buying from USA firms. Not all of it, most. Objections could be made on moral grounds, or on claiming that it does not serve the USA's interests, but that is not quite the same thing as claiming all those tax dollars are given away to Israel.

Gone thru does not make it accurate.

Yes 30 Billion agreed in 2007 I believe it was called Memorandum Of Understanding

over next 10 years & 74% to be spent on US made military goods & service...what is 26% of 30 billion? Pocket change??

Lastly it is not as many like to suggest all military aid...There is many other types of welfare we the US pay to this

illegitimate stepchild we are saddled with

Loan guarantees etc etc etc

http://www.wrmea.org/congress-u.s.-aid-to-israel/u.s.-financial-aid-to-israel-figures-facts-and-impact.html

Not to mention if we go back from 1949 till roughly 2011 the US gave Israel 101 Billion USD in aid.

Of which 53 billion was military aid...so there is a nice chunk that is NOT military aid as much as many

like to claim it is all aid & "mostly" re-spent in the USA

The ICC thing has very little to do with USA aid to Israel.

Rather than raging at Israel, would have made more sense turning all that anger against successive USA administrations upholding this policy.

I did not bring it up you did with your suggestion

"That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated"

I was suggesting Israel has the benefit of being a welfare recipient of the US due to their lobbyist etc...As such has that option afforded<sic> them

As for anger....None here thanks....Disgust? Oh yes plenty ....& yes thank you have written my reps many times

Why would I as a US taxpayer not be disgusted by this wrongful handout to one who not only does not deserve it but has been no friend to the US?

Why would we want to be pals with such poor example of a government? Their track record would be deemed off topic & deleted so will leave it at that.

But those who know the history know what they are

Not sure which figures you are quoting - for example. USA military aid to Israel on the 2010 budget was $2.8 billions, and $3 billion for 2011. Other than that, there are $3 billion which serve as loan guarantees (but, if memory serves, that was part of a one off thing a while back - not an integral renewable part of the USA military aid). The bulk of non-military USA aid to Israel gradually gradually phased out between 1998-2008, making it correct to say that nowadays most of the aid is military in nature. There were additional funds transferred, mainly in connection with some of the Peace and interim agreements with neighboring countries and the Palestinians. 26% (if one accepts the figure) of $3 billion would be a considerable sum - no argument there and contrary claim was made. Overall, that's exactly the point - nothing from the above counters the assertion that most of the USA aid is for military purposes and that most of it is spent in the USA.

Rather than trying to imply that all of Israel's civilian defense efforts are dependent on USA aid, how about trying to look over the fence and check how much of the Hamas budget is directed at similar efforts? Granted that the figure will not compete with Israel's spending, but surely this would make a sizable bit of any government under similar conditions?

And again, no issues with criticism based on moral grounds or on asserting that funds could be used in better ways. As for USA aid being wholly (or even mostly) a giveaway, this is incorrect. On the lobbying thing - may want to check who lobbies for that, this being perhaps one area where a lot of the heavy lifting is done by USA firms.

[Morch]

PA says it’ll drop war crimes suit if settlements frozen

Read more: PA says it'll drop war crimes suit if settlements frozen | The Times of Israel http://www.timesofisrael.com/pa-says-itll-drop-war-crimes-suit-if-settlements-frozen/#ixzz3PAGsBBkz

The official told The Times of Israel that land seizures in occupied territory constituted a clear violation of international law. Still, he noted that the appeal to the ICC would be withdrawn if Israel were to freeze settlement construction, and added that the Palestinian Authority had conveyed to Israel an official message to that effect, through Jordan and Egypt.

So this was not about "justice" after all, but just another negotiation maneuver? Shocking.

[Seastallion]

Why is it that the crimes that Hamas are alleged to have committed are measured in numbers of rockets fired, whereas the alleged crimes against Israel (and every other army in history) is measured in casualties? Could it be because the score would read: Israeli civilians killed by rockets 3 , Palestinians killed by Israeli army 1,951

Because its the thought that counts. It is not Hamas operational performance that is considered.

That Israel invests its best efforts to protect its citizens, and Hamas does nothing of the sort - is not debated.

It's the thought (of firing rockets) that counts and not their actual toll??? Nearly 2000 dead in retaliation for thoughts!!

Astounding callousness and a very desperate grasp for a justification that I didn't expect from you.

But, on the other hand, exactly the sort of word-twisting faux emotional comment I learned to expect in turn.

The Palestinian casualties were not killed in retaliation to at thought, the rockets fired at Israel were not imaginary.

The obvious meaning was that the intention behind an action in germane.

Not a hard concept to grasp, and not one meriting the hyperbole indignation.

It was not even even a justification of Israel's action, but rather an explanation given in response to the previous post.

I almost don't believe it's the Morch we're used to reading.

There is no "faux" emotion. It's real (besides the fact that what I wrote was not very emotive). There is no twisting of words. In response to the member's question of why, whereas normally conflicts/acts of aggression are measured in casualties, Israel counts rockets fired and ignores the very small number of casualties, you replied that it is the thought that counts.

You repeat the attitude with your comment about intent being germane.

Should the number of bullets fired, but missed, by US troops in the last decade be a measure of their aggressiveness or their "operational effectiveness"?

I remain astounded.