17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[Rusty Keyhole]

It's idiots like these that give other foreigners who are working here legally with a permit a bad name.

Thanks for your input Mr Perfect.

[luis888]

I don't think the issue here is about whether they were providing services to those outside of Thailand - its actually more to do with immigration seeing you living and "Working" here without contributing to the Thai economy. They want your dollars, so they make it harder for foreigners by enforcing the whole Visa and work permit policies, which is money directly to Thailand, and they assume that you will end up paying tax.

Presumably they don't want thousands of foreigners setting up camp here, working online, but not paying anything in taxes to the Thai Gvt. And that's their prerogative, not matter how irksome it may seem to the foreign contingent. I can actually see their point.

If it was a bunch of people coming and camping in my back yard, and tapping away on laptops - albeit providing services to China, I'd be pretty annoyed, and also - wouldn't relish the thought of another 10,000 people cottoning on to the idea and joining the camp.

Directly or indirectly they are paying/contributing to the Thai economy. By living in the country you're spending money, which means some of that money will have some tax attached to it.

[Travel Dude]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Try working in the Western world without valid papers or try staying there without valid visa. Why Thailand should be different? The law is the law, it's pretty straight forward.

[rhythmworx]

Any of them Paedophiles?

[CodyB]

I was in Chiang Mai for 4 days a week ago.

It surprised the hell out of me to see white guys cooking pizzas, backpackers doing waitressing and western women conducting tours and selling organic food. But it was happening.

Furthermore, a trip further afield to Pai I found white guys tending bar and cooking steaks.

The police could go out everyday and make 17 random arrests, maybe people should start respecting Thai labour laws?

[malakmd]

Like it or not rules & regulations are set by immigration and had been notified to all of us, weather your cause is good for community or you just making living in tropical weather, there are no excuse and exemptions.

I wonder these teachers were earning money why they just can't fulfil the legality? another farang way?

[khwaibah]

Bad move.

They were not committing a crime, they were offering a service that Thais can't offer.

They were taking nobody's job.

Just another excuse to say how bad these foreigners are..................

I know, you can't work without a WP, but at this instance they were harming nobody.

Try working in the Western world without valid papers or try staying there without valid visa. Why Thailand should be different? The law is the law, it's pretty straight forward.

Over 11 million are doing every day in the USA.

[khwaibah]

I was in Chiang Mai for 4 days a week ago.

It surprised the hell out of me to see white guys cooking pizzas, backpackers doing waitressing and western women conducting tours and selling organic food. But it was happening.

Furthermore, a trip further afield to Pai I found white guys tending bar and cooking steaks.

The police could go out everyday and make 17 random arrests, maybe people should start respecting Thai labour laws?

Chiang Mai ain't special on this. Look threw out isaan and the white faces are every where working.

[Yann55]

......and about 6 months ago (when all the new rules were going into effect) the head of immigration in Chiang Mai got up and said that if you were doing online work for work outside Thailand, you didn't need a B visa or a work permit........................

Well, as Jingthing and a couple other rightly pointed out earlier, in this case there was a workplace, where these guys went as one goes to an office, and that situation obviously crossed the line.

It's fascinating to observe how the development of Internet challenges in so many ways the rules and regulations of all countries, in so many different fields (working regulations but also copyright, censorship, privacy... the list goes on).

Trying to keep this in check somehow looks like a person vowing to stop the incoming tide with his bare hands... and the image of the 'Sorcerer's Apprentice' naturally springs to mind.

[oneday]

This is the part of the Thai immigration "work permit" law I hate. It is highly unlikely that these people were taking away any jobs from a Thai citizen and in my opinion that is the primary purpose of the "Work Permit" laws...to protect jobs for Thai citizens. I see Thailand as using this law to nail anyone who is working in this country whether or not it actually threatens taking a job away from a Thai Citizen...for instance, all those people who run internet eCommerce websites. This law is ridiculous when applied this way.

People are so scared about these laws they have to ask if they can work around their own property. Utterly ridiculous laws applied incorrectly.

[Mot Dang]

409 responses, to date, for this topic. Is that a record ? Of all the problems Thailand has you mob have to choose this limp issue such as this to set a possible record. Very few correspondents have the welfare of Thailand in mind, many are only thinking what you can get out of it if they break the law. From reading these responses I can only conclude that very few of you live in Thailand, or are "been there, done that one time tourists", or have never been here at all. Unbelievable.

[beb]

409 responses, to date, for this topic. Is that a record ? Of all the problems Thailand has you mob have to choose this limp issue such as this to set a possible record. Very few correspondents have the welfare of Thailand in mind, many are only thinking what you can get out of it if they break the law. From reading these responses I can only conclude that very few of you live in Thailand, or are "been there, done that one time tourists", or have never been here at all. Unbelievable.

Anybody who visits these forums and doesn't actually live here has my sympathy. I can't think of anything sadder than that.

[balo]

Actually they where working legally, you can work in a condo or house and work on the computer without a work permit, you only need a work permit to work for a company, I work on my computer and have been doing it for the last 13 years with the immigration office knowing what I do and they said as long as I do it in my own house and no where outside my house like a office building I would be fine, these guys must have pissed someone off in CM..

No they were not working legally since they worked in a group for a Thai company , and got paid through the company. Capisce?

[Benmart]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Considering the consequences, it seems unwise to work without a work permit. In the past, I have made unwise decisions that resulted in discomfort and serious consequences for me.

That being said, I am hardly in a position to decree anyone of being "stupid" without being a hypocrite.

[TerrylSky]

What about all the business men who come to Thailand on business - to be wine and dined, tour facilities, sign contracts, consult with attorneys, review and monitor manufacturers, to buy and export, to import and sell, and even meet with governmental officials. I think all of the above falls under…working. Do they all have business or work visas?

What about the average Joe Blow who goes to Sukhumvit, parities all night, then gets up around 10am (10pm Chicago time) goes back to the bar for breakfast and another beer, picks up BKK post (and another babe), checks the stocks, does some analysis waiting for his eggs, then calls Chicago to make a few trades, then finishes his breakfast and beer. Isn't this work? Of course it is.

Or what about a number of other activities, i.e. Skype video calls back to the office, reviewing applications, bids, etc. sent on emails, editing and replying, etc. etc. on and on. Is this working? Of course it is.

These teachers were singled out. It's not right (or legal?) especially if moneys were sent to a bank account outside of Thailand.

Actually, it is scary because about 50% of farang would be guilty too at one point or another.

Remember the musicians in Chiang Mai who were arrested and deported for playing music for free?

I know, they were working even though they weren't even paid tips!

Ridiculous - and scary!

[TerrylSky]

Yes Balo, I think you are correct. But still, there is a lot of ambiguity and double standards going on. Indeed, these individuals must have pissed someone off, not that that should make a difference. Further, how did the immigration police even know, and why? Cheers!

[Benmart]

409 responses, to date, for this topic. Is that a record ? Of all the problems Thailand has you mob have to choose this limp issue such as this to set a possible record. Very few correspondents have the welfare of Thailand in mind, many are only thinking what you can get out of it if they break the law. From reading these responses I can only conclude that very few of you live in Thailand, or are "been there, done that one time tourists", or have never been here at all. Unbelievable.

I live in Thailand full-time/retired. I love the country and certainly wish it well.

I am hardly in a position to pass judgment concerning 409 responses/posts. I haven't a clue if anyone does or does not have the welfare of the state in mind or if they are intent on breaking the law or not.

I try to avoid assuming something that I have limited knowledge of, particularly when I've not met the people who are the basis of my assumptions.

I'm not in charge.

I'm not a judge.

The stones I carry in my pocket to throw at others, can weight me down when fording the river of life.

Take a deep breath, as if it is my last.

Conclusions are nice at a distance, but often difficult to defend up front.

One Day at a Time.

[impulse]

some people just like to push the boundaries, now they have blown it and will be tossed out, pretty stupid really for a few extra dollars

Considering the consequences, it seems unwise to work without a work permit. In the past, I have made unwise decisions that resulted in discomfort and serious consequences for me.

That being said, I am hardly in a position to decree anyone of being "stupid" without being a hypocrite.

On balance, the equation may work like this:

I love Thailand and want to stay here.

I can't stay in Thailand unless I make some money to support myself.

I can't get a WP and legal job to make money legally (for whatever reason)

So I'll work illegally and if I get kicked out, I'm no worse off than if I had to leave for lack of funds.

In that case, working illegally isn't really a stupid decision- it's carefully calculated. I don't agree with the decision, but then my situation is different. I'm here just for my paycheck.

And, like Benmart, I wish that were the worst decision I've ever made...

Edited January 24, 2015 by impulse

[chooka]

PS 2 has a point. I agree that harm was being done in this case. When I worked in Thailand I paid a boatload of taxes. I hope that money went to some good use.

I cant see any real harm but thais see it as taking English teacher jobs from thais. There was another thread awhile back that said Thailand lacked English teachers and they wanted to encourage foreigners to come over and teach.

[khwaibah]

409 responses, to date, for this topic. Is that a record ? Of all the problems Thailand has you mob have to choose this limp issue such as this to set a possible record. Very few correspondents have the welfare of Thailand in mind, many are only thinking what you can get out of it if they break the law. From reading these responses I can only conclude that very few of you live in Thailand, or are "been there, done that one time tourists", or have never been here at all. Unbelievable.

Not even close. Get 3000 + and you start getting in rang.

[micmichd]

PS 2 has a point. I agree that harm was being done in this case. When I workers in Thailand I paid a boatload of taxes. I hope that money went to some good use.

I cant see any real harm but thais see it as taking English teacher jobs from thais. There was another thread awhile back that said Thailand lacked English teachers and they wanted to encourage foreigners to come over and teach.

[rubl]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

I think that apart from a possible accent lots of people like being taught by non-native English speakers as they tend to speak slower and use more simple words.

Just my 2 cents as regular Dutch uncle

[micmichd]

Like, many Thai people actually know English vocabulary pretty well, they just put the words together in Thai style grammar. If Farangs speak and understand Queen's English - or American English - fluently, I guess they should be able to pass the TEFL test, even if they speak with a strong Farang accent. You're even better off if you understand the law of your guest country, by showing the lawyer you're able to make a strategic decision. Just saying...

An advanced welfare system (as an add-on to the already existing social security system) would be a good idea for Thailand, maybe something like a 'negative income tax' as discussed in Germany. This would need more reliable tax-paying from all people that in fact are in Thailand, and good law making should be based on statistics, including current leaks. These leaks seem to get closed up now, hopefully they make something out of additional taxes.

[jcisco]

409 responses, to date, for this topic. Is that a record ? Of all the problems Thailand has you mob have to choose this limp issue such as this to set a possible record. Very few correspondents have the welfare of Thailand in mind, many are only thinking what you can get out of it if they break the law. From reading these responses I can only conclude that very few of you live in Thailand, or are "been there, done that one time tourists", or have never been here at all. Unbelievable.

awww nahhh this topic... dont think so... no one can beat mh370 though for size.... but i agree with what your saying though.

Edited January 24, 2015 by jcisco

[micmichd]

Yes, agree. My very personal fault is: my English is too fast, I was asked by many Thais to repeat slowlier. Hopefully I'll remember this next time.

[arthurwait]

This is the part of the Thai immigration "work permit" law I hate. It is highly unlikely that these people were taking away any jobs from a Thai citizen and in my opinion that is the primary purpose of the "Work Permit" laws...to protect jobs for Thai citizens. I see Thailand as using this law to nail anyone who is working in this country whether or not it actually threatens taking a job away from a Thai Citizen...for instance, all those people who run internet eCommerce websites. This law is ridiculous when applied this way.

People are so scared about these laws they have to ask if they can work around their own property. Utterly ridiculous laws applied incorrectly.

But what reason do they have to be here ?

What reason do they have to perform work here ?

That is the point of a visa, you have to have a reason for one. If it is you just want to be here then you are a tourist and get a tourist visa.

Employing Thais gives you that reason to be here. There is no other reason if the work does not actually need to be done in Thailand.

Internet work can be done legally in Thailand if Thais are employed and taxes paid. Just that's the part no one seems to want to do.

[beb]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

I think that apart from a possible accent lots of people like being taught by non-native English speakers as they tend to speak slower and use more simple words.

Just my 2 cents as regular Dutch uncle

Well any teacher who speaks too quickly or uses language that is too advanced shouldn't be a teacher at all, native or not. I've taught in several countries and the basic fact is that if local teachers do not use the language with native speakers on a regular basis, their English skills are not only going to be subpar, they'll likely teach a form of English (or whatever language is being taught) that is very limited in usability. In the US we had a character on a popular show who was a HS Spanish teacher but had such limited skills that it was used for comic effect.

You're almost always better off with native speakers as long as they know how to teach.

Edited January 24, 2015 by beb

[bangmai]

I am very close to one of the teachers, and unsurprisingly, the Bangkok Post got this -completely- wrong.

My friend had a perfectly legal work permit, as did many other teachers. The article points the finger at the foreign teachers as criminal culprits. The company was at fault, promising legal work and then deliberately dragging feet when it came to sorting out the permit paperwork and expense.

The foreigners are not being held. They were released the next morning after a photoshoot with press. This was obviously just a publicity stunt, and of course, lots of 'fines' were paid. Each teacher was even asked for a US $100 'service charge' for such nice treatment in jail.

The Nation reports that "none" had work permits.

[gemguy]

Welcome to NK Folks

Why do you say this?

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Australia without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in Canada without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in the USA without a permit.

Try arriving and expecting to work legally in many other countries without a permit.

You will be very disappointed. Then deported.

Actually there are plenty of people working illegally in those countries while the relevant authorities do not harshly enforce the laws all the time and or everyday and run people out of the country...here one day and thrown out the next....certainly not like that

Fortunately they do not harshly enforce the laws here in Thailand to any great extent while they are very lenient as compared to numerous other countries.

Still...the authorities need to change the laws and requirements because the current laws are basically not being abided by while both Thais and foreigners are complicit.

They have to make it easier for foreigners to make the arrangements to work here legally or people will remain criminalized simply for working and living and staying in Thailand.....hardly a serious crime by any standards.

I am not defending the practice...just pointing out the authorities need to address the problem in a different manner rather than police raids that result in all the more fear and loathing of the police and relevant authorities because the police do not enforce the laws because they believe it is absolutely necessary and required of them rather they have an ulterior motive.

This issue is really a grey area if there ever was while infractions of the immigration laws and labor laws should not be national headlines.

Those countries will deport you

You are defending the practice

There is no grey area, only in the mind of the people who break the law.

You should be very cautious about what you think and or profess as the right thing to do in cases such as this.

In effect, you are encouraging the police to come around and arrest any foreigner for any reason at all...by way of your reckoning and what you wholly support.

When your turn comes, for any little infraction of the law...such as Jay walking, riding a motorcycle without a helmet or overstaying 1 or 2 days or not paying your taxes or bills on time and or a long, long list of possible minor infractions of the law....then we would all like to witness you squirming while whining and whinging about over zealous and unwarranted law enforcement coming down on..... you.

How about someone ( could be anyone) turns you in for any infraction of the law, even if you believe yourself to be squeaky clean...while the police...remember the Thai police????..... will conveniently arrange for you to be breaking a THAI law ........somehow or someway....as that is how it works in Thailand and the flip side of the coin when laws are over zealously enforced while people encourage the enforcement of such minor breaches of the laws....that need to be changed to conform with the reality of some foreigners staying in Thailand and working and wanting to make a life in Thailand.

The Thais should be equally accountable and responsible for not providing the foreigners with all the documentation while it needs to be recognized and reiterated that you can not get a Non Immigrant "B" Visa without the said companies Corporate documents provided to you ...First

You can not get the work permit until you have the 90 day Non immigrant "B" Visa stamp in your passport....First

You can not get the 1 year extension until you get the 90 day Non Immigrant "B" Visa stamp in your passport ...First.

If the Thais do not do their part ...first .......then you can not begin to do your part and submit the necessary and required documents to obtain the Visa and or the work permit and or the one year extension.

The reality of the situation is such that the foreigners are breaking the laws while the Thais are accommodating them and they are complicite while the Thais profit from the foreigners while they take no responsibility when the laws are enforced...not on them...but on the foreigners who are held responsible....not the Thais.

Cheers

Edited January 24, 2015 by gemguy

[micmichd]

I don't think anyone in Thailand should be insulted by Bavarian English, German TV viewers are used to Mr Roberto Blanco from Bavarian TV, and his lingo is usually understood in the rest of Germany viewing ARD TV.

I think that apart from a possible accent lots of people like being taught by non-native English speakers as they tend to speak slower and use more simple words.

Just my 2 cents as regular Dutch uncle

Well any teacher who speaks too quickly or uses language that is too advanced shouldn't be a teacher at all, native or not. I've taught in several countries and the basic fact is that if local teachers do not use the language with native speakers on a regular basis, their English skills are not only going to be subpar, they'll likely teach a form of English (or whatever language is being taught) that is very limited in usability. In the US we had a character on a popular show who was a HS Spanish teacher but had such limited skills that it was used for comic effect.

You're almost always better off with native speakers as long as they know how to teach.