17 foreign ‘English teachers’ arrested in Chiang Mai for working illegally

[rwdrwdrwd]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

The current 'definition' does not actually define work. Given this, it logically reduces to potentially include any physical activity or use of knowledge paid or unpaid, which would include breathing and walking. So either everybody who comes to Thailand requires a work permit to walk to arrivals, or it's a grey area and the only guidance for what is considered to be 'work' by those with the ability to determine a breach of law is precedent.

There is no precedent for the case where somebody earns money offshore performing activity for offshore entities. There is no legislation that accurately defines 'work', there is no legislation that says checking your email is OK but updating your website is not, there is no legislation that says a person who comes here for 2 weeks is working if they receive adwords income, but someone who stays for twelve years is not, and there is no legislation that says a couple of hours a week of trading is ok, but day trading 12 hours a day is not. There is also no precedent to act as guidance for any of these matters - not just here, internationally so far as I am aware.

There are on the other hand a multitude of precedents for people that are paid money in the country they reside for their skills when they do not have permission to work, like these teachers, and that is why it is a different scenario.

Edited January 27, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[spidermike007]

I only would like to know may I check my Email from my bank (business account) here with out work-permit ???

NO ?

OK, OK. I go abroad to check it.

No worries. Check it. Nobody has ever been busted for that here.

Next ...

Well, Loles may be onto something here. The whole letter of the law attitude is a bit overblown. Keep in mind the reasons the laws were enacted to begin with. Otherwise, you just have Obama style fascism. If Thais are well qualified to teach English so be it. And until that happens let the the government eat the crow it deserves, for not taking the initiative to make sure the educational system is adequate to teach the language used to conduct business globally.

[arunsakda]

Everybody has to stop touting this "farang injecting money" thing. This is not what all of this about now. The Thais are an extremely accomodating and tolerant people. Years ago they were so tolerant that utter junkies and peados stayed and played for years on end. They contributed to the economy too but that kind of thing is not going to work anymore. Do you think they even care for "rich" farang on the beaches with their naughty bits hanging out? Rubbish.

Change had come, the party is over, and I say good riddance. The sooner these net pikeys, sex tourists, crims and grifters are run out the better, I'd reckon.

I know a guy who is earning $26,000 a month plus from his "net pikey," business. To be fair he's the top earner I know, but I do know plenty who are earning over $2000 a month, which is basically the same as the income for retirement reasons in the country.

I - think you are jealous of those people, so that's why you demean them. By the way. the guy that's earning $26,000 a month is on a Thai Elite visa, and he's only 24 years old. That must really, really annoy you.

Nobody cares what one does all day banging away on your laptop. The head of Chiang Mai Immigration said as much so publicly. I certainly don’t.

Can they just keep it on the down low? What the Thais will not allow to continue is the current situation where every cafe on Nimman is manned 14 hours a day with “ language students” and “tourists”, and foreigners are operating large net enterprises out of condos and co-working spaces. I’m not at all annoyed by young people making money. I make plenty. I'm not jealous of people who stare at a screen in Chiang Mai all day either. I am a FLIFO working overseas at what essentially is a part -time job. When I'm in town I can just chill. I'd rather not, but I can buy an Elite Visa too. Problem is now I might have to. Since last year because of all the foreigners working illegally every time I arrive I don't know if I am gonna get knocked back. So thanks to those who abuse the system another "crackdown" will arrive. The digital nomads will be fine, just moving on to Cambo or Ecuador to run their vast international conspiracies peddling porno and fake viagra, and paying tax nowhere.

Problem is us who remain here and have to suffer ever increasing suspicion and hassles.

Edited January 27, 2015 by arunsakda

[tonbridgebrit]

Why couldn't they go to, to China, to teach English to Chinese people ?
What's so amazing about Thailand, that means people have to be in Thailand and teach Chinese people here ? Are women in Thailand that much better than the ones in China ? A lot of those who have got a Thai girlfriend, well, the Thai girlfriend practically looks the same as the women from China.

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

Tax receipts from where ?

If you had a wp in Thailand thus keeping within the rather vague rules on "work " then it would be tax receipts from Thailand. The same way that Thai people self assess for taxable income purposes. If they wanted to they could insist on a minimum amount of tax to be paid then structured upwards!

Anything is possible with the right thought processes.

Cambodia for example make it easier when it comes to visa's and to a lesser extent Wp (many Expats don't have Wp because it's not enforced, and when it is it's just the case of getting one)

So you would have no problem paying a provisional tax rate of 35% seeing as people going this route wouldn't fall under PAYE ?

In Thailand currently there are no variation in taxation for sole traders or company employees. In fact the tax return is the same, only difference is the company deduct it from employees on a monthly basis but using the same criteria!

There are many Thai sole traders (self employed) doing tax returns in this way.

OK but answer the question would you be prepared to pay provisional tax at a rate of 35% in order to get a WP ?

Seeing as people don't want to register a Thai entity its irrelevant discussing sole traders or limited companies in Thailand, as it wouldn't apply in this case

[Soutpeel]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case...

It simply is not. In the instance slipperx mentions both serviced entity and payment are outside of Thailand. These people were being paid in Thailand, in THB, by an entity in Thailand (having answered a job advert in Thailand, and operated from an office in Thailand).

But back to a basic fact as regards a Thai WP, where, how or even if you do get paid has absolutely no bearing on the current definition of working in Thailand so this aspect is irrelevant

The current 'definition' does not actually define work. Given this, it logically reduces to potentially include any physical activity or use of knowledge paid or unpaid, which would include breathing and walking. So either everybody who comes to Thailand requires a work permit to walk to arrivals, or it's a grey area and the only guidance for what is considered to be 'work' by those with the ability to determine a breach of law is precedent.

There is no precedent for the case where somebody earns money offshore performing activity for offshore entities. There is no legislation that accurately defines 'work', there is no legislation that says checking your email is OK but updating your website is not, there is no legislation that says a person who comes here for 2 weeks is working if they receive adwords income, but someone who stays for twelve years is not, and there is no legislation that says a couple of hours a week of trading is ok, but day trading 12 hours a day is not. There is also no precedent to act as guidance for any of these matters - not just here, internationally so far as I am aware.

There are on the other hand a multitude of precedents for people that are paid money in the country they reside for their skills when they do not have permission to work, like these teachers, and that is why it is a different scenario.

Yes it does define it very clearly, except you don't like the definition that's all

[rwdrwdrwd]

Yes it does define it very clearly, except you don't like the definition that's all

BS

http://wp.doe.go.th/wp/images/law/4/aliens_act.pdf

"work" means engaging in work by exerting energy or using knowledge whether or not in consideration of wages or other benefits

This does not define work. A definition, fundamentally, CANNOT use the word it attempts to define as a precondition of itself and make any sense whatsoever.

Logically, the only guidance to be taken from that is that 'work' for the purpose of the Alien Working Act can involve exerting energy or using knowledge, regardless of whether or not payment is involved. That literally includes 'breathing' and 'walking'. It provides no further guidance on what 'work' means.

It is the antithesis of 'very clear', it is simply a riddle. Given this, either breathing requires a Work Permit, or the sole guidance we have is precedent.

Edited January 28, 2015 by rwdrwdrwd

[casualbiker]

Yes I think it does matter. It is one thing having a one on one arrangement outside of Thailand working from home and quite another for a business to employ numbers of people for a fully fledged business trying to avoid the laws

I don't think it does, if your working at home, without a Thai entity or WP its the same thing as what has happened in this case, and you are trying to avoid the laws

even you,yourself called it working from home, and if one is working in Thailand, one requires a WP....so there we go you have called it "work " yourself

You can rationalise things anyway you want, but at the end of the day, all that has happened with this case is almost guarantee further clamp downs on people, so my advice make sure your affairs are above board

Except in the instance your relating to it's not possible to get a WP for self employed work were the salary or payment for services is paid outside of Thailand.

Example : a magazine article editor, whose sole job is reading and rectifying copy.

Or in the example of the op : a language teacher using the internet as a media for students outside Thailand.

Both cases presume no interaction with Thai customers or payment within Thailand .. you cannot get a WP for this, so do you presume that therefore it isn't classified as work in the context of a Thai work permit!

Yes you could, you could form a Thai company which invoices the companies outside Thailand and get a WP that way, there is nothing in the business laws or WP rules which say to get a WP business must be conducted only in Thailand or only with Thai customers, that assertion is just plain silly on your part

Its not a question of cant get a WP, its more of a case of most people can't be arsed or dont to spend the money to get legal, that is fact

Further I know a guy personally who operates a company from Thailand, is fully legal and only deals with overseas customers, he has no Thai customers, so your premise and comments are inaccurate, the difference is he could be arsed to set it up correctly

Further please let's get away from this concept of self employment shall we

I suspect the vast majority of people who claim to be self employed are invoicing through shelf companies they own in places like HK to offset individual tax liabilities in countries they are doing business in working as "self employed"

certainly in places like the UK companies will not deal with so called " self employed" people unless they are invoicing through a Ltd company, as it opens up all kinds of tax liability issues for said company if they are not taking income tax and NI off so called "self employed "

Therefore if they can set up a company in one country, why will they not do it in Thailand a get legal ?

Again a poster rather than seeing that there is in fact a gap in the WP process for independent self employed people they state what is already known.

We know you can set up a company. We know you can employ 4 Thais for each foreign WP. But that still doesn't address those situations that I cited. The small scale work were it just isn't a viable option to set up a company etc etc etc.

But ok then!

I don't see any gap in WP system, simply because if there was such provision in the form you suggest, it would be another vehicle for long term visa abuse in Thailand as some nob gets off the banana boat proclaims he/she is self employed and demands a long term visa,

I believe immigration/DOL actually have the right balance, its not a difficult system, but not that easy for chancers either

They would still have to provide tax receipts. So no different to any WP now .. win win.. more tax revenue for Thailand. Correct and proper documentation for people working online from home.

Tax receipts from where ?

If you had a wp in Thailand thus keeping within the rather vague rules on "work " then it would be tax receipts from Thailand. The same way that Thai people self assess for taxable income purposes. If they wanted to they could insist on a minimum amount of tax to be paid then structured upwards!

Anything is possible with the right thought processes.

Cambodia for example make it easier when it comes to visa's and to a lesser extent Wp (many Expats don't have Wp because it's not enforced, and when it is it's just the case of getting one)

So you would have no problem paying a provisional tax rate of 35% seeing as people going this route wouldn't fall under PAYE ?

In Thailand currently there are no variation in taxation for sole traders or company employees. In fact the tax return is the same, only difference is the company deduct it from employees on a monthly basis but using the same criteria!

There are many Thai sole traders (self employed) doing tax returns in this way.

OK but answer the question would you be prepared to pay provisional tax at a rate of 35% in order to get a WP ?

Seeing as people don't want to register a Thai entity its irrelevant discussing sole traders or limited companies in Thailand, as it wouldn't apply in this case

If my answer is irrelevant (the facts) then your question is equally irrelevant (made up) so why bother answering!

I have a WP so it doesn't concern me.. but I still think there is a grey area that needs sorting for both the benefit of Thailand (extra taxes) and the Expat (legal status)

By the way Sole traders are not registered in Thailand!

[bkkcanuck8]

Bye Bye Digital Gnomes.

Vast difference. As I have said before, if you are going to do digital work - the company should NOT have offices in Thailand. 17 people going to work in a condo everyday for a company in Thailand - was bound to raise eyebrows. If they had hired a bunch of individual contractors from a foreign source and paid them offshore.... then there would have been no problem.

[Chicog]

Or work from home.

[ColdSingha]

any chance you guys can learn how to quote properly?

giving me a headache trying to read this thread

[mush78]

Many illegal worker in Thailand, many illegal work in Thailand, why police not arrest them .. People who spreading knowledge , who teach Thai people how to grow how to speak English for good future .. Why arrest them ? For what ? At least people should respect teacher .. How country grow up if u not respect teachers .

[ColdSingha]

^ News source doesn't seem reliable, someone posted in this thread they were released already days ago with a slap on the wrist, yet the article implies they're detained / in court proceedings.

Then that article says they were tutoring Chinese spies... huh?

Oh dear, well one only hope they make an example of these people including the owners of the company as a deterrent to others, Crack down on Ed visa's, back to back visa runs, one suspects crackdown on "English" schools next , this sort of behaviour will only stop or reduce when the full penalties under the law are used, go and jail the overstayer for few years

Although the banning from Thailand is not law yet, its things like this, which will make them push these sorts of laws through

Keep dreaming.

What do you mean, so someone posting something on here is more reliable than a published news story, the comments on here are unsubstantiated and unverifiable, therefore cannot by their nature be seen as reliable

As stated previously due to the actions of very selfish people one can expect further crack downs on people working illegally, people who blatantly abuse the Ed visa system and people who abuse visa waiver system

These same groups of people will be whinging that immigration makes it so hard to live in Thailand but one can only suggest that the a people who are abusing the systems are the ones in part who are creating the environment for immigration to make things harder for certain groups of people, so in simple words..... Its your own fault

not quite sure why you are always harping on about tourists, visa exempts and students abusing visas, most of the really big abusers are the writers, traders, bar "owners" and con artists on RETIREMENT visas

Edited January 28, 2015 by ColdSingha

[Soutpeel]

^ News source doesn't seem reliable, someone posted in this thread they were released already days ago with a slap on the wrist, yet the article implies they're detained / in court proceedings.

Then that article says they were tutoring Chinese spies... huh?

Oh dear, well one only hope they make an example of these people including the owners of the company as a deterrent to others, Crack down on Ed visa's, back to back visa runs, one suspects crackdown on "English" schools next , this sort of behaviour will only stop or reduce when the full penalties under the law are used, go and jail the overstayer for few years

Although the banning from Thailand is not law yet, its things like this, which will make them push these sorts of laws through

Keep dreaming.

What do you mean, so someone posting something on here is more reliable than a published news story, the comments on here are unsubstantiated and unverifiable, therefore cannot by their nature be seen as reliable

As stated previously due to the actions of very selfish people one can expect further crack downs on people working illegally, people who blatantly abuse the Ed visa system and people who abuse visa waiver system

These same groups of people will be whinging that immigration makes it so hard to live in Thailand but one can only suggest that the a people who are abusing the systems are the ones in part who are creating the environment for immigration to make things harder for certain groups of people, so in simple words..... Its your own fault

not quite sure why you are always harping on about tourists, visa exempts and students abusing visas, most of the really big abusers are the writers, traders, bar "owners" and con artists on RETIREMENT visas

And one supposes you can back up this assertion with data then ? Granted there will be some, but it appears everything someone gets pulled in Thailand for visa abuse illegal working etc its nearly always one of persons from one of the categories I mentioned

[gk10002000]

I understand the lure of Thailand and the desire to stay in the country and I understand how one might want to do a lot of things in order to stay there. But this whole operation sounds dodgy from the beginning. I can't imagine feeling comfortable working there, getting paid properly or on time, etc. Somewhat clever of the company owner to get things setup though.

[natway09]

And I bet the so called Company was deducting tax from their salaries & paying the Thai Government?

If you work here, get paid here then get a work permit, I think they overstepped the line & will now pay the price

[ev1lchris]

Why couldn't they go to, to China, to teach English to Chinese people ?

What's so amazing about Thailand, that means people have to be in Thailand and teach Chinese people here ? Are women in Thailand that much better than the ones in China ? A lot of those who have got a Thai girlfriend, well, the Thai girlfriend practically looks the same as the women from China.

China is horrible. The women don't take care of themselves there.

[VIPinthailand]

maybe they can not get a work permit for this kind of work and what is about Chinese women not taking care of themselves?

[ShinMusashi44]

Why couldn't they go to, to China, to teach English to Chinese people ?

What's so amazing about Thailand, that means people have to be in Thailand and teach Chinese people here ? Are women in Thailand that much better than the ones in China ? A lot of those who have got a Thai girlfriend, well, the Thai girlfriend practically looks the same as the women from China.

Chinese girls are a lot more conservative. And Thai girls and Chinese look nothing alike. Sure some Thai girls have small eyes, but for the most part they don't look the same.

[connda]

Why couldn't they go to, to China, to teach English to Chinese people ?

What's so amazing about Thailand, that means people have to be in Thailand and teach Chinese people here ? Are women in Thailand that much better than the ones in China ? A lot of those who have got a Thai girlfriend, well, the Thai girlfriend practically looks the same as the women from China.

Chinese girls are a lot more conservative. And Thai girls and Chinese look nothing alike. Sure some Thai girls have small eyes, but for the most part they don't look the same.

And many of the Chinese girls can speak fluent English already.

[Rhys]

Simply amazing

[The manic]

Wow crime of the century; illegal possession and distribution of a language

[Rooo]

Off topic posts removed.

[Commerce]

Any country, whether Western or Asian has clear immigration rules whereby, unless you are a permanent resident with working rights or a citizen, you need to have valid approvals to work. It's nothing uncommon and not specific to Thailand. If someone doesn't understand these basic rules, I could only imagine that they are very stupid.

Not fully true! http://www.workpermit.com/uk/work_permit/who_needs.htm

[Soutpeel]

Any country, whether Western or Asian has clear immigration rules whereby, unless you are a permanent resident with working rights or a citizen, you need to have valid approvals to work. It's nothing uncommon and not specific to Thailand. If someone doesn't understand these basic rules, I could only imagine that they are very stupid.

Not fully true! http://www.workpermit.com/uk/work_permit/who_needs.htm

Er that's clear immigration rules there, if your a member of the EU you don't need a WP

Thailand could one day write something similar in their rules, ie members of ASEAN don't need WP's

[Commerce]

Any country, whether Western or Asian has clear immigration rules whereby, unless you are a permanent resident with working rights or a citizen, you need to have valid approvals to work. It's nothing uncommon and not specific to Thailand. If someone doesn't understand these basic rules, I could only imagine that they are very stupid.

Not fully true! http://www.workpermit.com/uk/work_permit/who_needs.htm

Er that's clear immigration rules there, if your a member of the EU you don't need a WP

Thailand could one day write something similar in their rules, ie members of ASEAN don't need WP's

It's a nice idea S, but somehow I think LoS is so far up its own sovereign state I just can't see it happening, despite the Western logic behind it.

[Suroo]

What were the two Irish nationals teaching ?..................

.

Irish Historians have found what they believe

to be the headstone of the oldest man to have lived.

He was 193 and was named Miles from Dublin.

Ever hear of the 2 kinds of englishman?

The 1% that own everything and fish for salmon on the fly and the 99% dumb asses that own nothing and sit beside muddy pools thrown stale bread to carp.

No Irishman would settle for that.

Cheers!

[micmichd]

That's immigration rules for UK, not for Thailand.

[jhwest]

Excuse me and I totally respect the laws and customs of Thailand, ofcourse I do.

However, with total repect and yes there many foreigners who are teaching without the necessary experience and qualifications.

What is absolutely forgotten is that Thai Teachers trying to teach Thai Students English and yes they may have degrees lol.

I ask you and often the so called qualified teachers lol, think they know how to teach English.

Total and absolute crap and yes a native speaker is English, not Phillipino or American, yet they have the teaching positions.

It does not help one little bit, that it the aim of every single Institution in that everyone passes no matter what.

Believe you me I have taught proper English and the teachers who have still positions getting salary for goodness know what.

They think they know it all and unfortuanately they do not know even a little bit, but think that they do.

Between lol the so called Director and so called Head of Foreign Languages andreally laughing out loud, they are totally useless, yet the so called Director lo goes along with it.

An absolute disgrace and the so called Director and lo theso called Head of Languages, youru really having a laugh, both pateetic, yet still comand a huge salary, for what exactly. Yes absollutely NOTHING AT ALL A DISGRACE

Sincerely

J West

[Echo Tango]

Hmmm....so, if I trade stocks online (NYSE), and have the money sent to my Thai bank account, Am I earning money illegally?

Edited April 17, 2015 by Echo Tango