Study: Germans have skeptical view of Israel

[DPIZZA]

No one should have any automatic rights to become citizens of a country if the decision is based on religion.

Off topic, I consider it a fairy tail triology. Torah, bible and the koran. Jesus had followers that added a lot of stuff to the old testament to be able to sell his new version to jews. Muhammed did version number three where he acknowleged version 1 and 2 so he easier could get converts.

Excuse me, but that's very arrogant. Who are YOU to dictate the immigration policies of sovereign nations? If there is ever a Kurdistan and there might be one someday, would it be unreasonable for them to welcome Kurds from all over to be citizens there if they choose? Lots of countries do similar things. For example if you have Italian ancestors there is a path towards Italian citizenship, last time I checked anyway.

Well I dont agree with your example: The kurds. The kurds have no right to steal parts of Turkey, Syria, Iraq and Iran even though there are areas in these countries with kurdish majorities.

Kurdistan have never existed. Just because Britain mapped a theoretical Kurdistan doesnt mean that the theoretical map is anything but a theoretical map made by a country that at that time were a colonial country that used the globe as a drawing board for their colonial and imperialist actions.

Kurdistan is just a name used to say that an region has a majority of kurds or as a provincial name, nothing else.

Kurds have no birthright to move to a theoretical country that never should become reality.

Off topic, the kurds in the autonomous kurdish region in Iraq are kicking out turkmens, christians and arabs and importing iraqi kurds to oil rich areas and they got good oil deal with the US that they dont want to share in a fair way.

And dont tell me Im wrong. I have christian and kurdish friends from Erbil. A good friend was a kurdish peshmerga fighter, my christian Iraqi friend have an older brother that fought side by side with kurds as a peshmerga fighter for 8 years against Saddam.

I dont care about the Italian policy. Are Italy some kind of rolemodel or authority in these matters?

BKKBobby,

You just gave me the best argument. I will follow your ideas, but just change 1 name:

"Palestine have never existed. Just because Britain mapped a theoretical Palestine doesnt mean that the theoretical map is anything but a theoretical map made by a country that at that time were a colonial country that used the globe as a drawing board for their colonial and imperialist actions.

Palestine is just a name used to say that an region has a majority of Palestinians or as a provincial name, nothing else.

Palestinians have no birthright to move to a theoretical country that never should become reality."

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

[NeverSure]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

[DPIZZA]

BKKBobby,

I get your point. I guess it makes this issue a lot more difficult to resolve. The more you dig the more questions comes up...

I think your post is the only one who is in the right track.

The difference between your post and others, is that you are talking about the future, and trying to think what can be done.

The others never talk about a sustainable solution (some even dreaming of a solution without Israel in it).

The question that rises is what is the right principle to decide about the borders of countries today, and future countries?

I think that the holocaust of the Jews in WW2 and the genocide done by ISIS and in Syria gives us the answer:

Every minority is being persecuted by the majority who controls the country. There should be a country for every minority where they can live peacefully, in secured borders.

Notice that i said a country as singular and not plural as in more than one for a specific minority.

For example, the Muslims in Kashmir cant claim it as a country since there is already a Muslim state called Pakistan.

More over, I think that there should be a definition that defines the character of that country as representative of that minority culture.

So even if they have immigrants arriving to that country, they cant change the character of that country, and should accept it as is.

[DPIZZA]

The Nazis put innocent people in concentration camps and murdered them wholesale for no reason other than their religion.

Israel let the Palestinians have land to rule themselves in Gaza. They destroyed the infrastructure and ran out and elected terrorists to govern them. They planted bombs in Israel and shot many thousands of rockets at civilians. Any restrictions are the Palestinians own fault. There IS NO similarity between Nazi and Israel behavior to the rational mind.

Here an Israeli newspaper which gives you better inside information:

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.640830

Apparently you cant read the article without being subscribed...

Are you trying to get us subscribing?

Anyway, Not only is the Haaretz a far left newspaper, but Gidon Levi has the worst far left opinions in Israel, which even other far left opinionated Israelis distance themselves from.

There is a clip on Youtube, where even his son remarks on his dads one sided opinions, and ask for some more balance from him, in front of cameras (it is in Hebrew but i post it anyway, his son at the back, you can understand from the atmosphere):

[DPIZZA]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

Thank you NeverSure,

But it was a leading question for BKKBobby, so he can understand the situation better.

Your answer is valid non the less...

[BKKBobby]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

Thank you NeverSure,

But it was a leading question for BKKBobby, so he can understand the situation better.

Your answer is valid non the less...

The leading question lead me where you wanted me to arrive.

But all minorities cant have their own country. There are countries that have an endless amounts of tribes with their own character and identity. No matter if there has been a history of persecution. Im excluding Israel.

Its not feasible. We would have a thousand unmanagable countries in the middle east and africa.

[Ulysses G.]

It only shows that in your twisted logic you can turn anything the Israelis does to evil.

That is exactly why the Israelis should ignore opinions like you have and keep doing the best thing for their own security and survival, because it doesnt matter what they do, the haters will turn it against them!

That is IT in a nutshell.

[Seastallion]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

And when did the country of Israel come into existence? Where are the countries Ceylon or Siam? When did the republics of Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Croatia come into existence? South Africa?

This "no such country as Palestine" is a silly argument that has absolutely no point to it.

[Ulysses G.]

The point is that way too many people are convinced that there was one and they are completely wrong.

[Jay Sata]

UG by his own admission elsewhere has not visited the west in 25 years and certainly has no first hand knowledge of modern Germany or indeed Europe.

[Ulysses G.]

If you haven't noticed, plenty of people who actually live in these places totally disagree on multiple issues and plenty of people on Internet forums LIE about their "first-hand knowledge" - as well as everything else. Reading credible news reporting and reliable history books is a lot better than relying on a bunch of fool's personal opinions.

[BKKBobby]

If you haven't noticed, plenty of people who actually live in these places totally disagree on multiple issues and plenty of people on Internet forums LIE about their "first-hand knowledge" - as well as everything else. Reading credible news reporting and reliable history books is a lot better than relying on a bunch of fool's personal opinions.

Which online news websites do you count as 'ok' (pretty much reliable)?

Im just curious.

A list of the news companies someone see as credible and follow tells us a lot about that person.

I understand that you might read many websites and switch.

But you must at least have 3-4 news websites that you follow.

Which ones?

Im just curious.

[Ulysses G.]

It really depends on the topic. I use the New York Times a lot, but don't trust them on certain things. However, they are certainly much more credible than some crazy blog. I like to look at Mediatite and the Daily Beast as they have articles from both liberals and conservatives and a bunch of interesting articles that are not political. There is no publication on either side that I trust completely, but I almost always agree with Charles Krauthammer on most issues and John Bolton on foreign policy. There are a few liberals like Kirsten Powers that I usually agree with too, but not always.

[DPIZZA]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

And when did the country of Israel come into existence? Where are the countries Ceylon or Siam? When did the republics of Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Croatia come into existence? South Africa?

This "no such country as Palestine" is a silly argument that has absolutely no point to it.

Seastallion,

Again, the logic that is valid against Israel is not valid against Palestine...

You want me to count how many times your side of the argument used the:"Israel has no right to exist as a country because its a make believe country, by make believe God?"

So we are saying, lets talk on the same level, lets bring this matter for a discussion, lets see if Palestine is a legitimate country as well.

To the argument:

Most countries in the world has some defining characteristics, which differentiate it and its ethnic group from others. It can be a common history, common culture, common ethnicity, or any combination of them. Many started as a kingdom before transforming into a modern country.

This is what we know from archaeological point of view, not the bible: Israel and Judea were 2 related kingdoms in the Levant. Israel apparently rose to power around 900 BC, and Judah separated from Israel and became independent kingdom around 800 BC.

lets see the others:

Siam is the ancient name of Thailand, which was used by foreigners. The Thais always called themselves Thai. The name Siam is mentioned first time in the 12'th century. So Siam is Thailand.

Ceylon is the name the British gave to Sri-Lanka of today, from the Portuguese name Ceilão. The locals called it Lanka or Sinhala.

So Ceylon is Sri-Lanka.

The Serbs are one of the Slavic nations. They arrived into the Balkans around 5-7 AD, and mixed with local population (Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Romans, Celts). The started to establish several city states in the area, and in 1217 the Serbian Kingdom obtained recognition by Rome and Constantinople in 1217.

Montenegrin statehood dates back to the medieval independent states of Duklja and Zeta, and subsequently Montenegro, which was the only nation in the Balkans which defied the Ottoman conquest in the Balkans, part of it remaining free and independent during the whole period. Duklja gained its independence from the Byzantine Roman Empire in 1042.

Bosnian established the first independent banate in the region, known as the Banate of Bosnia, in the early 12th century upon the arrival and convergence of peoples that would eventually come to call themselvesDobri Bošnjani ("Good Bosnians"). Later the Ottomans brought Islam to the Bosnian and changed their cultural and social outlook.

The Croats arrived in the area of present-day Croatia during the early part of the 7th century AD. They organised the state into two duchies by the 9th century.The Croats are South Slavic people.

NOW , please tell me the history of Palestinian people and the Palestinian kingdom, and their origin, ethnicity, and first mentioned instance!

[Jingthing]

Every nation has a creation history and likely none are perfectly clean. Why is Israel's creation obsessively singled out for the obvious purpose of suggesting she wasn't even LEGITIMATE in the first place and thus isn't legitimate now? I know the answer. Just pointing it out.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.

[Seastallion]

-snip-

Now if these things are true to Kurdistan, they are definitely true to Palestine, and the only way for you to refute that is explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?

"...explain to me when ever there was a country (not a region as you say) that was called Palestine?"

It can't be done. There never was a country called Palestine OR a people called Palestinians until the PLO under Yasser Arafat chose those names for themselves in the 1980's.

Historically Palestine was a region that included parts or all of several countries and its inhabitants had their own names corresponding to their own countries - countries which still exist.

Pretending that there was a country called Palestine or a people called Palestinians before the 1980's is pure fraud.

And when did the country of Israel come into existence? Where are the countries Ceylon or Siam? When did the republics of Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia, and Croatia come into existence? South Africa?

This "no such country as Palestine" is a silly argument that has absolutely no point to it.

Seastallion,

Again, the logic that is valid against Israel is not valid against Palestine...

You want me to count how many times your side of the argument used the:"Israel has no right to exist as a country because its a make believe country, by make believe God?"

So we are saying, lets talk on the same level, lets bring this matter for a discussion, lets see if Palestine is a legitimate country as well.

To the argument:

Most countries in the world has some defining characteristics, which differentiate it and its ethnic group from others. It can be a common history, common culture, common ethnicity, or any combination of them. Many started as a kingdom before transforming into a modern country.

This is what we know from archaeological point of view, not the bible: Israel and Judea were 2 related kingdoms in the Levant. Israel apparently rose to power around 900 BC, and Judah separated from Israel and became independent kingdom around 800 BC.

lets see the others:

Siam is the ancient name of Thailand, which was used by foreigners. The Thais always called themselves Thai. The name Siam is mentioned first time in the 12'th century. So Siam is Thailand.

Ceylon is the name the British gave to Sri-Lanka of today, from the Portuguese name Ceilão. The locals called it Lanka or Sinhala.

So Ceylon is Sri-Lanka.

The Serbs are one of the Slavic nations. They arrived into the Balkans around 5-7 AD, and mixed with local population (Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Romans, Celts). The started to establish several city states in the area, and in 1217 the Serbian Kingdom obtained recognition by Rome and Constantinople in 1217.

Montenegrin statehood dates back to the medieval independent states of Duklja and Zeta, and subsequently Montenegro, which was the only nation in the Balkans which defied the Ottoman conquest in the Balkans, part of it remaining free and independent during the whole period. Duklja gained its independence from the Byzantine Roman Empire in 1042.

Bosnian established the first independent banate in the region, known as the Banate of Bosnia, in the early 12th century upon the arrival and convergence of peoples that would eventually come to call themselvesDobri Bošnjani ("Good Bosnians"). Later the Ottomans brought Islam to the Bosnian and changed their cultural and social outlook.

The Croats arrived in the area of present-day Croatia during the early part of the 7th century AD. They organised the state into two duchies by the 9th century.The Croats are South Slavic people.

NOW , please tell me the history of Palestinian people and the Palestinian kingdom, and their origin, ethnicity, and first mentioned instance!

Thanks for the history lesson. Much of it simple general knowledge and thus why I was able to suggest them off the cuff. The new revelations were interesting, thanks. Unfortunately, pretty pointless, though, because of your first paragraph; I, (and indeed others) am not arguing from the standpoint of "Israel has no right blah blah blah....".

So, before I go on, I'll ask you one question: Do you deny the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination on their own sovereign land?

[Ulysses G.]

So, before I go on, I'll ask you one question: Do you deny the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination on their own sovereign land?

I'm not sure what your definition of "sovereign land" is, but I don't think that it applies to the Palestinians. They turned down the UN deal that would have given them sovereign land and - as things stand today - they have no permanent borders and they are not independent of outside authority. A fine mess they have put themselves in.

[snowgard]

So, before I go on, I'll ask you one question: Do you deny the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination on their own sovereign land?

I'm not sure what your definition of "sovereign land" is, but I don't think that it applies to the Palestinians. They turned down the UN deal that would have given them sovereign land and - as things stand today - they have no permanent borders and they are not independent of outside authority. A fine mess they have put themselves in.

The stupid comment I ever listen. THEY are the owner of the land. How much percent of their land they loosed about this deal? They, or their parents grow up there before it was stolen from they. If you are in their position you never want accept it too. All other is bs!!! But the point is that this all is not against the Jews, this is against the racisms ISRAELIS. If the palestine communities grow up a little bit, Israel bomb they again in the nirvana. How much cost it to build a house, a school, a hospita? How much times Israel destroyed it again. The point is that maybe 10 percent of the palestines help the terrorists but ISRAEL treat ALL PALESTINES!!! If I just read what you NAZI likes wrote, I understand that ISRAEL never want give back the occupied land and and tell in 300 years still: This is about our safety!!! What a BS!!!

[snowgard]

Ansd never forget: The ISRAEL ARMY fight against a flintstone gang!!! Sure sometimes they have some rockets but nothing more.....!!! And they cannot use it right otherwise much much more people dies about the rocket attacs.

[Jingthing]

So, before I go on, I'll ask you one question: Do you deny the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination on their own sovereign land?

I'm not sure what your definition of "sovereign land" is, but I don't think that it applies to the Palestinians. They turned down the UN deal that would have given them sovereign land and - as things stand today - they have no permanent borders and they are not independent of outside authority. A fine mess they have put themselves in.

The stupid comment I ever listen. THEY are the owner of the land. How much percent of their land they loosed about this deal? They, or their parents grow up there before it was stolen from they. If you are in their position you never want accept it too. All other is bs!!! But the point is that this all is not against the Jews, this is against the racisms ISRAELIS. If the palestine communities grow up a little bit, Israel bomb they again in the nirvana. How much cost it to build a house, a school, a hospita? How much times Israel destroyed it again. The point is that maybe 10 percent of the palestines help the terrorists but ISRAEL treat ALL PALESTINES!!! If I just read what you NAZI likes wrote, I understand that ISRAEL never want give back the occupied land and and tell in 300 years still: This is about our safety!!! What a BS!!!

What land are you talking about?

Gaza?

West Bank?

Israel?

You DO realize there really never was a Palestinian nation? There was a large block of land much larger than Israel/West Bank/Gaza that was under British rule and before that of course the Ottoman Empire.

[Jingthing]

Ansd never forget: The ISRAEL ARMY fight against a flintstone gang!!! Sure sometimes they have some rockets but nothing more.....!!! And they cannot use it right otherwise much much more people dies about the rocket attacs.

Yeah, the Israeli army is much much stronger. Tell us something we don't know.

[Ulysses G.]

Ansd never forget: The ISRAEL ARMY fight against a flintstone gang!!! Sure sometimes they have some rockets but nothing more.....!!! And they cannot use it right otherwise much much more people dies about the rocket attacs.

That is the Flintstone gang's problem. The Arabs started attacking the Jews when the Arabs were much stronger and massively outnumbered them, but they got their butts kicked anyway. Due to hard work, careful planning and ingenuity by Israel, the tables have turned!

[snowgard]

What land are you talking about?

Gaza?

West Bank?

Israel?

You DO realize there really never was a Palestinian nation? There was a large block of land much larger than Israel/West Bank/Gaza that was under British rule and before that of course the Ottoman Empire.

palestine-under-british-mandate.jpg

</quote>

All this land was from the people lived there!!! It's not important that there was a palestine nation. But this people lived there and the Brits and later Israel stole their land. What do you do if someone kick you out of your house and land?

[Ulysses G.]

It was NOT Palestinian land. It was mostly owned by absentee landlords in Beirut, Damascus and Cairo and the Palestinian Arabs were mostly tenant farmers who owned nothing. They could have had their own land, if they had not refused the UN deals and declared war of the people who did. They lost that war and their chance to have their own country for the first time in history.

[Jingthing]

What land are you talking about?

Gaza?

West Bank?

Israel?

You DO realize there really never was a Palestinian nation? There was a large block of land much larger than Israel/West Bank/Gaza that was under British rule and before that of course the Ottoman Empire.

palestine-under-british-mandate.jpg

</quote>

All this land was from the people lived there!!! It's not important that there was a palestine nation. But this people lived there and the Brits and later Israel stole their land. What do you do if someone kick you out of your house and land?

You seem to have a very simplistic understanding of the history there.

Anyway, the gist of my question was really do you accept the existence of the sovereign state of Israel with any borders (or is your beef more about the west bank, etc.) and I'll read between the lines and assume you don't. Too bad for those with that POV, including Hamas and most Arabs who identify as Palestinians, because Israel DOES exist.

As far as understanding the Arab resistance ... sure of course that's understandable. But given where things are at now in 2015 and acknowledging neither side has been saintly, there is reasonable resistance fighting for a Palestinian state side by side with acceptance of Israel, and then there is resistance with a genocidal intention against Jews, to kick them all out of Israel. I think there is something to TALK about with the former, and nothing to talk about with the latter.

[BKKBobby]

Neither side are saints. But yes i consider Israel to be the side that is acting less good.

Saying that the 'palestinians' had their chance to get a 'good' deal but refused and therefore can blame themselves and not ask for the same deal again are the reasoning of kids. They maybe hoped for more at that time? Maybe it was the leader at the time who made the mistake? Someone here did a post were he indirectly suggested that people are too concerned about Israel considering that theres a lot of horrible/unfair/whatever stuff going on elsewhere. And something I read that making of sovereign states usually isnt "clean". He was trying to lead it to be "you are anti-semites". Not true. My first crush/girlfriend who took my virginity had a polish jewish father with a family member killed in the holocaust. I had a russian jewish girlfriend who frequently visited Israel in my late teens. I have a friend which has a polish jew father and israeli mother who served in the army. Her older brother emigrated to Israel to do military service and seek his roots in a country he never lived in or was born in, but ended up living in a refugee camp for arabs in Jenin, he feels that Israel are the side that do more wrong than the 'palestinians' and he dedicates his life to helping their miserable situation.

[Ulysses G.]

Saying that the 'palestinians' had their chance to get a 'good' deal but refused and therefore can blame themselves and not ask for the same deal again are the reasoning of kids.

Who else can the Palestinians blame but themselves? The Jews agreed to the deal and have had their own country for 66 years, which is thriving. The Palestinian Arabs refused and have tried to rely on terrorism for all that time, but it has not worked and has done nothing but make things for them worse. Time to try signing a peace deal and negotiating borders as they committed to in the Oslo Accords.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein

[harryfrompattaya]

Wow the German put Jews Yes Jews in Camps now they are skeptical.

Are the afraid that the Jews will put Germans in Camps.

This proves they the Germans still are crazy.

[BKKBobby]

Saying that the 'palestinians' had their chance to get a 'good' deal but refused and therefore can blame themselves and not ask for the same deal again are the reasoning of kids.

Who else can the Palestinians blame but themselves? The Jews agreed to the deal and have had their own country for 66 years, which is thriving. The Palestinian Arabs refused and have tried to rely on terrorism for all that time, but it has not worked and has done nothing but make things for them worse. Time to try signing a peace deal and negotiating borders as they committed to in the Oslo Accords.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

-Albert Einstein

They should be offered the same deal again. Even if they can blame themselves. "You missed your chance". Sounds childish. Israel wants to solve the mess right here right now, right?