Study: Germans have skeptical view of Israel

[Wat dee]

70 years on and they still pull the holocaust card for sympathy.

Rest of the world has moved on and I suggest they do also.

Not saying to forget but it's time to heal old wounds.

Most Jews lived in Europe at that time and something like 2/3rds of them were murdered in cold blood. Many Germans from that time are still living. I am pretty sure that they deserve sympathy for the Holocaust a lot longer than just one generation of Europeans.

You are both bloody wrong!

Herr Hans Gruber, we are discussing here the OP "Germans have skeptical view of Israel".

Your post is insulting!

6,000,000 lives taken for no reason whatsoever! And you are talking about "pulling the holocaust card for sympathy".

I perceive disdain and scepticism in your wording.

If I were a victim or a relative of a victim - I would demand more than sympathy!

And I deny Germany the right to have sceptical view of Israel! They can only feel guilt!

Your talk about "rest of the world has moved on" and your suggestion - can be stuck into your own healed old wound.

You are not qualified to give such advice.

As to Ulysses, - Jews or/and Israelis do not need any sympathy! And the "old wounds" cannot be healed!

What Israelis and Jews need is Memory! Never forget! And the right to live, to exist on that damned puny rocky dry patch of land given to them by UN (or as they believe by their God)!

It is this right of theirs that those bloody 'generations of Europeans' including but not limited to Germans cannot live with.

Nothing! Or next to nothing! Or .

Plus a

The world has given these suffering half exterminated people 'sympathy' and a time bomb right under their feet!

The Israelis got a raw deal from the world. They have to fight every day for their life and existence.

Yet the very same Jews have given to the world more than any other 'great' nation. Despite the perpetual war, terrorists and hostile opinion of many generations of those piss-weak Europeans.

Yes, they fight well! Bravo! And they will always kick their enemies arse! Simply because they cannot afford to lose.

But this does not help the 'healing' process, sorry.

"What did the world give them in return for 6,000,000 lives of their people?" World gave them as much as it gave to most of the others who suffered during the war.

"something so useless that nobody even wanted or owned it before they came. bunch of Muslim Arab nomads who for millennia were only tending their camels there."

Palestine was much more than rocky dry patch of land. Palestine had all the infrastructure that is needed for official statehood in place.

Many lives lost 1939-45. Not just Jews.No need to forget just don't dwell on it. Asking special attention while your own extremists are repeating history is just pathetic!

I don't know the actual figures. Germany pays every year, and has been since the war, serious sums to Israel.

So Why World should pay or why the world owes at all to the jews??.

[DPIZZA]

The perennial argument. Israel was created after WW2 as a way for western governments to show sorrow and sympathy for the apallingly treated jews of Europe during that war.

Your history is terrible, although your intentions might be good.

1948 was the official date that Israel was established, but it had been in the pipeline long before WW II. The Balfour Declaration of 1917 endorsed the establishment in Palestine of a "national home for the Jewish people." Both Jews and Arabs from other areas had started flocking to the area long before that and Jews had a continual presence for over 3,000 years. Most of the Arabs living there did not own any land at all and rented from absentee landlords in other Arab countries.

The "Palestinians" started calling themselves that in about 1967 after losing their 3rd major war to Israel. The land that Israel took over for defensive reasons was already occupied by other Arab countries and had nothing to do with the mythical nation of "Palestine" that never existed. .

My history is O.K. - Palestine was promised to both parties, sort of, during the course of WW1. Lawrence of Arabia had the word from London and the UK thought it might help with fund raising if they intimated that a jewish state was possible(The jewish state was evenb mooted for the Kimberley in WA and MAdagascar (empire madness)). It was all part of the Ottoman empire prior to that (for many centuries). The arbitrary lines drawn by Sykes & Picot saw the creation of Palestine and Jordan as well as Lebanon, Syria et al. Jewish immigration to Palestine was a hot topic. Unfortunately, the good people in both camps were overwhelmed by the extremists. Stern gang and Irgun people who were murdering British soldiers during WW2 for instance (now translates as Likud). Some of the Arab states flirting with Hitler. I feel terribly sorry for long term Palestinians (former Ottoman Empire residents), most of whom were displaced. I feel sorry for some of the early kibbutzniks, who were better natured than those later arrivals who have politically overwhelmed them.

Your history is great, but your understanding of Israel's present demographics and political map reminiscent of 70s 80s.

kibbutzniks don't are very capitalist these days and are not automatically belong to the communist party.some of them belong to the right wing parties.

Also it is true that the former leaders of the Irgun became the first leader of the Likud but since then new people joined it, the Irgun was dismantle and outlawed already at the founding of the country.

Today most of the Israelis, including people who used to be left wing have right wing opinions. That doesn't mean they don't want peace. The first peace treaty between israel and an Arab country was signed by the Likud party. They are just more pragmatic in their approach then the left wing according to israelis.

[Morch]

As Kingsley says. He's a storyteller. I take issue with him that the whole of Europe should somehow grieve. Europe did their bit by defeating Hitler, with many of our sons dying for it. And what do we get in return? 'Not good enough'. Our sacrifice is not good enough. We don't understand collective Jewish pain. We can't be allowed to forget because that would make us insensitive and uncaring. He profers this notion at the same time that Israel is busily 'mowing the lawn' in Gaza.

Your smear is slanderous. I do not hate Jews. Just as I don't hate Muslims or Christians or Blacks or Gays or anyone else. Hate is a destructive emotion. We've had enough of hate driving the world. No? What I dislike is the evil of political Zionism and criminals exploiting the holocaust for financial or political gain. I also don't care for the disingenuous dumping of guilt on the rest of Europe, when you should be expressing gratitude. This does not apply to the great many decent Jews. Just the 'professional wailers' with an agenda. They don't know when to shut up and as such, do a great disservice to world Jewry. People have had enough of it.

There is no need to excoriate today's Germans for someone else's crimes. I don't see 'anti-semitism' but I certainly see 'anti-German'.

The exclusivity of Jewish suffering is another cause of resentment. The message is clear. Only Jews matter. When we see Hollywood make movies about Operation Barberossa where the Nazis murdered MILLIONS of Russians labelled as 'sub-human' then I may have more sympathy. But those who control Hollywood don't care about Russians or anyone else who died in WWII.

If you want others to have sympathy for Jewish deaths in WWII, then show some sympathy for those who suffered in the Nakba. Sympathy should be for ALL innocents who die at the hands of brutes. Stop behaving as if only Jewish lives matter. THEN you will get your sympathy. Although after 50 years of this my bucket is empty, the well is dry. How much more of this do you expect people to imbibe?

Who's "we"? Did all of Europe stand up to Hitler? There were countries which were allies with the Nazis, there were countries which closed their gates to Jews trying to escape, there were countries facilitating the extermination of Jews after the German occupation (in most cases, Jews who were citizens).

What is the issue with the proposition that Europeans do not understand collective Jewish pain? Did Europeans in general (apart from specific groups) go through the same experience? The War was awful, yes. There were destruction, casualties and great sorrow. Saying that it is not the same thing does not demean the experience and suffering of non-Jews. Attempting to claim that there was no difference, demeans the suffering of the Jews.

So Jews should shut their trap and just be thankful things didn't go....worse? Worse how? Jews better get on with the program and forget that in many cases their fellow countrymen sent them to their deaths? Why should they? Seems like a good survival lesson to be remembered. The Jews should be grateful for what? Six million dead? That it did not get double digit for them? And again - did all Europe partake in this great effort? Hardly. Were there not Jews in the forces fighting the Nazis, as citizens and soldiers of their respective countries? Jewish soldiers paid the same price as "European" soldiers. They were, in fact, the same.

Moreover, was this great "gentile" sacrifice made solely (or even mainly) for the benefit of the Jews? Why should they be more thankful than others?

Hollywood doesn't make enough films portraying the general suffering during the war and focuses on the Jews? Well, that could have something to do with the extremity to which Jews were singled out by the Nazis. Were other victims' suffering denied by Jews? Were they actively prevented from presenting their narrative? And Russians, yes - many died. But that wouldn't have anything to do with their country being at war with the Nazis, would it? (well, after they signed that truce which they don't like to bring up). Were the Jews at war with Germany? Might the obvious answer to that make the penny drop as to how their case is different?

And here we go again with drawing the line between the Nazis treatment of the Jews and Israel's actions in Gaza. There is no explanation how these are similar, it is simply implied that they are. Are Israeli actions in Gaza radically different than those taken by armed forces of European nations (during WWII and up to present day)? Is the claim, then, that all instances in which the civil population hurts, are to be accorded similar-to-Nazis status?

The Nakba? Certainly a tragedy. There's no arguing that, surely not from the perspective of the victims and refugees. But how is it the same, or even similar to the Holocaust? There were about the same number of Jews expelled from Arab countries. There were just as many, if not more, Jews who had to flee their homes in Europe following the Nazi occupation. Other wars around the globe so similar numbers of people displaced. Those are all tragedies, yes. They are not the mass extermination of a people.

It is asserted that today's Germans are not to be held responsible for someone else's crimes. At the same time it is asserted that today's Israelis are, in fact, responsible for alleged crimes committed by previous generations. It is often suggested that Jews get on with the program and stop whining. The same advise is not directed at the Palestinians. The time frames are similar, but the application is different.

The sad fact is that the old saying, charity begins at home, holds true for these things as well. Groups tend to care more about their own troubles, narrative and suffering and see similar ideas by other groups as secondary. It is not the way of the world, at this time, to take a global view. We are still thinking in terms of relatively small groups (ethnic, national, and religious, being the largest), and always with comparison and in competition with other groups. This will one day change, but until then - why expect more of the Jews?

[Morch]

As usual, you ignore Arab policies and zero in on the Jewish state for hateful rants. Palestinians are not allowed to become citizens of Arab countries. Palestinians face severe travel restrictions in the Arab world. They do not receive passports and their travel documents are only accepted by a few countries. Palestinians cannot vote or run for office in national elections. Children born to Palestinians do not get citizenship Arab countries either, which violates Article 7 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. What utter hypocrisy ignoring Arab restrictions on other Arabs.

That's because Palestinians already have a home to go to...it's called Palestine...currently occupied by Zionists.

To get your claim right - a Palestinian cannot get a citizenship in an Arab country, because, supposedly he's got a country already.

The very same Palestinian, however, can get a citizenship in (some) non-Arab countries, because....errr....

[Morch]

<snip>

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

Except for the Yemeni, a bunch of Caucasians.....ironically much closer genetically to Aryans than to Semites.

If you're going to engage in racial claptrap, at least get it right. There's another example even on that list. Happy hunting.

In your two sentences you contradict yourself. The first sentence implies I'm wrong about the races, the second confirms that I'm right.

However, the above could be misplaced criticism if by claptrap you meant to convey that race has nothing to do with the subject at hand.

Race has everything to do with the Zionist justification of it's "project".

Makes a supposedly informative remark, doesn't even bother to check the facts. Sorry, can't be bothered to set up a meme pic for that. There is no contradiction - what I mean by claptrap is claptrap, not too hard to figure out. May want to check my original comment on this.

[Chonburiram]

Bertelsmann Foundation...

They are famous for their "surveys" - NOT!

Very shady association. Not worth to mention/discuss it's findings.

[DPIZZA]

70 years on and they still pull the holocaust card for sympathy.

Rest of the world has moved on and I suggest they do also.

Not saying to forget but it's time to heal old wounds.

NEVER ever forget .It may suit you to foget, sure,that figures

I never said forget.

I just said Israel and Jews should stop pulling the holocaust out when it's suits their agendas.

Look what they are doing today, it's not that much different what was done to them 70 years ago.

It's not the Jews fault that the Holocaust is being mentioned in this content, it is the other side of the argument when they have the nerve to call the Jews Nazis!

it is mostly the tactic of the Muslims who actually never learn about the facts of the Holocaust, and the antisemites in the west who gladly adapt this tactic.

The Holocaust not some "wildcard" the Jews pull out, it's a fact that will be totally idiotic of them to not learn from it, and project to the future.

anyway,

[Choctastic]

Groups tend to care more about their own troubles, narrative and suffering and see similar ideas by other groups as secondary. It is not the way of the world, at this time, to take a global view. We are still thinking in terms of relatively small groups (ethnic, national, and religious, being the largest), and always with comparison and in competition with other groups. This will one day change, but until then - why expect more of the Jews?

That's a refreshingly honest statement. Jews only look after their own... why expect more of them? Isn't this one of the grumblings about Jews, generally. That their allegiance is to the 'tribe' first and foremost and not the nations that host them? Isn't this the charge being levelled at Muslims? 'Why expect more of them?'

What is Kingsley expecting? That Europeans who are not part of his 'tribe' grieve for Jews? Did Jews grieve for Armenians? Isn't it enough that you have Museums, foundations, memorials, education in schools, movies and more and reparations are still being paid?

The whole idea of Europe grieving, 70 years after the event, seems improbable. How would it manifest? Would we have a 'European Holocaust Grief Day' or Year, perhaps? 'Grief ribbons'? Would they squeeze it in during, or after, the next bombing of Gaza?

And what about Sir Ben? Will he distance himself from the racist filth of Sacha Baron Cohen, when he's teaching others about sensitivity?

[green job]

Groups tend to care more about their own troubles, narrative and suffering and see similar ideas by other groups as secondary. It is not the way of the world, at this time, to take a global view. We are still thinking in terms of relatively small groups (ethnic, national, and religious, being the largest), and always with comparison and in competition with other groups. This will one day change, but until then - why expect more of the Jews?

That's a refreshingly honest statement. Jews only look after their own... why expect more of them? Isn't this one of the grumblings about Jews, generally. That their allegiance is to the 'tribe' first and foremost and not the nations that host them? Isn't this the charge being levelled at Muslims? 'Why expect more of them?'

What is Kingsley expecting? That Europeans who are not part of his 'tribe' grieve for Jews? Did Jews grieve for Armenians? Isn't it enough that you have Museums, foundations, memorials, education in schools, movies and more and reparations are still being paid?

The whole idea of Europe grieving, 70 years after the event, seems improbable. How would it manifest? Would we have a 'European Holocaust Grief Day' or Year, perhaps? 'Grief ribbons'? Would they squeeze it in during, or after, the next bombing of Gaza?

And what about Sir Ben? Will he distance himself from the racist filth of Sacha Baron Cohen, when he's teaching others about sensitivity?

About time you put a stitch in it ok?

[Choctastic]

About time you put a stitch in it ok?

Nope.

[Ulysses G.]

Groups tend to care more about their own troubles, narrative and suffering and see similar ideas by other groups as secondary. It is not the way of the world, at this time, to take a global view. We are still thinking in terms of relatively small groups (ethnic, national, and religious, being the largest), and always with comparison and in competition with other groups. This will one day change, but until then - why expect more of the Jews?

That's a refreshingly honest statement. Jews only look after their own...

That is not what he said, but you know that.

[Ulysses G.]

You can find a few nutcases to say almost anything. Most rational people would strongly disagree with them.

Edited January 29, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll posts and replies removed.

Stay on topic.

[Morch]

Groups tend to care more about their own troubles, narrative and suffering and see similar ideas by other groups as secondary. It is not the way of the world, at this time, to take a global view. We are still thinking in terms of relatively small groups (ethnic, national, and religious, being the largest), and always with comparison and in competition with other groups. This will one day change, but until then - why expect more of the Jews?

That's a refreshingly honest statement. Jews only look after their own... why expect more of them? Isn't this one of the grumblings about Jews, generally. That their allegiance is to the 'tribe' first and foremost and not the nations that host them? Isn't this the charge being levelled at Muslims? 'Why expect more of them?'

What is Kingsley expecting? That Europeans who are not part of his 'tribe' grieve for Jews? Did Jews grieve for Armenians? Isn't it enough that you have Museums, foundations, memorials, education in schools, movies and more and reparations are still being paid?

The whole idea of Europe grieving, 70 years after the event, seems improbable. How would it manifest? Would we have a 'European Holocaust Grief Day' or Year, perhaps? 'Grief ribbons'? Would they squeeze it in during, or after, the next bombing of Gaza?

And what about Sir Ben? Will he distance himself from the racist filth of Sacha Baron Cohen, when he's teaching others about sensitivity?

That's an expectedly dishonest reply.

I think it was pretty obvious that last bit of my post (the rest of which was too hard to quote?) was general in nature and not specific to Jews. I did not say that Jews only look after their own - you did. The charge being leveled at Muslims is more to do with the perceived silence of that huge "silent majority" which supposedly does not support Islamic terrorism. Try distorting my words harder next time.

Most of the Jews murdered in the Holocaust were European citizens of European countries. Many did not even consider being Jewish as their main defining element. The division between seeing them as fellow citizens and fellow Europeans who were singled out and between seeing them just as Jews was indeed a major theme of Nazi propaganda. Well done. The Jews of Europe were part of the European tribe (or respective national tribes, whatever). Why bring in the Armenians? Were the Armenians Europeans? Were they Jews? What reference connected the European Jews and the Armenians?

Kingsley's point is that Europe, in general, distanced itself from the association with the victims. It happened to the Jews. It did not happen to Europeans, to "our" citizens, to "our" people. The grieving process he is referring to is more along the lines of the way grief and coping with grief are dealt with in many psychological models. Kingsley words had more to do with Europe essentially skipping that grieving phase, and not with a notion that there should be continues grieving. This too, was pretty clear from the interview. It is not quite the same thing as having outer manifestation of remembrance such as museums, memorials and payments. Remembering is one thing, grieving and closure are something else. If you are unfamiliar with this ideas - have a read.

[Choctastic]

Kingsley's point is that Europe, in general, distanced itself from the association with the victims. It happened to the Jews. It did not happen to Europeans, to "our" citizens, to "our" people. The grieving process he is referring to is more along the lines of the way grief and coping with grief are dealt with in many psychological models. Kingsley words had more to do with Europe essentially skipping that grieving phase, and not with a notion that there should be continues grieving. This too, was pretty clear from the interview. It is not quite the same thing as having outer manifestation of remembrance such as museums, memorials and payments. Remembering is one thing, grieving and closure are something else. If you are unfamiliar with this ideas - have a read.

The people's of Europe at that time were not steeped in 'psycho-babble' and did not give the same weight to feelings and emotions as we do today. If they grieved at all, they grieved for their own dead, when they weren't struggling just to survive.

To try and instil guilt into generations of Germans, or anyone else for that matter, for an event they were not responsible for, is a sure recipe for resentment. Don't your psychological models tell you that? This issue has been raised before... http://forward.com/articles/151531/does-education-fuel-anti-semitism/

'Holocaust education is inadvertently fueling German anti-Semitism, making it worse.'

'Sixty-seven percent of Germans surveyed by researchers from Bielefeld University in 2008 found it “annoying that Germans are still held responsible for crimes against the Jews.”

[DPIZZA]

The misuse of the holocaust to silence criticism, by the Israeli machinery, is becoming unglued, with every Palestinian drenched in White Phosphorus. Germans, who had nothing to do with Nazis and their atrocities, quite rightly, have had a belly full of it. Israeli defenders have used up what political capital it gave them. We see them for what they are. Morally bankrupt and increasingly desperate.

Oh really?

and i suppose you passing yourself as a great humanist for mentioning that, but lets reveal the truth, that you are a great demagogue!

- You are attacking a nation/religion that suffered prosecution and was almost exterminated at the hands of the Nazis.You claim that they had "enough" sympathy for that, and the world just need to "ignore" that nations suffering in the past, and disconnect whatever happens to it now from that past.

- You claim they "misuse" the holocaust, when actually their enemies, who you support, do it so well and in contradicting ways: Once when they dare call the Jews (who were the main victim of the Nazis) Nazis, and the other time when they shout that Hitler should have finished the Job, or "go back to the gas ovens!"

If you dont want the holocaust to be mentioned all the time, maybe you should tell your side of the conflict to stop mentioning it!

- you say that "every Palestinian drenched in white phosphorus" as if it is continually happens. so tell me Mr.humanist, how many Palestinians were "drenched" yesterday? you know what a month ago? a year ago?

- You say that Germans "who had nothing to do with the Nazis" while you are forgetting that their father and grand father were part of Nazi Germany. ALL German men were drafted to the Nazi army at the time! some of them still alive today. That is hardly "no connection".

Plus many German industries, who still operate today, were part of the Nazi war machine, employing labor from concentration camps, until they died overworking.

Banks still today hold money and gold of holocaust victims, enjoying its interest or its investment, and only god knows how much of that property supported the rehabilitation of Germany after the war.

True, i do not hold grudge towards those who were born later, but saying they have "nothing to do with the past" is an understatement...

- but MOST IMPORTANTLY you also forgetting that those Palestinians who you defend were part of the Nazi allies. Their leader, Haj Amin Al Husseini, was a good friend and supporter of Hitler. He helped him gain support in the Arab world, built the Muslim Croatian Nazi brigades who were responsible for the death of thousands Serbians and Jews, who called to the Muslims on the radio and newspapers: "kill the Jews where ever you find them!", and was found guilty of war crimes in Nirenberg's court together with his Nazi friends!

Can you tell me how many Palestinians were "drenched in Phosphorous" back then??!?!?!

[Morch]

Kingsley's point is that Europe, in general, distanced itself from the association with the victims. It happened to the Jews. It did not happen to Europeans, to "our" citizens, to "our" people. The grieving process he is referring to is more along the lines of the way grief and coping with grief are dealt with in many psychological models. Kingsley words had more to do with Europe essentially skipping that grieving phase, and not with a notion that there should be continues grieving. This too, was pretty clear from the interview. It is not quite the same thing as having outer manifestation of remembrance such as museums, memorials and payments. Remembering is one thing, grieving and closure are something else. If you are unfamiliar with this ideas - have a read.

The people's of Europe at that time were not steeped in 'psycho-babble' and did not give the same weight to feelings and emotions as we do today. If they grieved at all, they grieved for their own dead, when they weren't struggling just to survive.

To try and instil guilt into generations of Germans, or anyone else for that matter, for an event they were not responsible for, is a sure recipe for resentment. Don't your psychological models tell you that? This issue has been raised before... http://forward.com/articles/151531/does-education-fuel-anti-semitism/

'Holocaust education is inadvertently fueling German anti-Semitism, making it worse.'

'Sixty-seven percent of Germans surveyed by researchers from Bielefeld University in 2008 found it “annoying that Germans are still held responsible for crimes against the Jews.”

Dealing with grief got nothing to do with "psycho-babble" (which is a great way of dismissing something without addressing it properly). Psychological theories and models simply attempt to describe how human being operate, they are not by themselves the grieving process. Every society got ways to deal with grief, and many are essentially the same at the core - Kingsley's point was that Europe initially pushed aside the grieving process when it comes to the Jews and that many of the current attitudes stem from that.

And once again, you continue the dissociation between Jews and other Europeans who perished during the war. The Jews were not a separate people. They were Europeans, citizen, neighbors. And part of the grieving is related to the fact that it was other Europeans that murdered then, and other Europeans who looked on. Saying it was all just them Nazis which did horrible to them Jews, that's just an easy way out.

Education without context is indeed less useful. I believe that this is part of what Kingsley's ideas are about.

[DPIZZA]

...also more amazing is that everyone has the nerve to call the jews Nazis, when in ww2 the leader of the Palestinians Haj Amin AL Hussaini was an ally and supporter of hitler and helped him to establish the croatian Muslim Nazi brigades, and rally the Arab world to support Nazi Germany.

Do you forget that the Brits had occupied almost every country in the near east and other parts of africa? Treated the people like slaves, stole all expensive goods out of this countries? All this natives hate the Brits for it and wanted their freedom back!!! About this they supported the Germans.

How it was in India, Malaysia, Indonesia, ....!!! The natives stroke back again the Brits.

Don't forget the 3.5 million africans who the Brits sent in slavery to america, But this is another story from the GLORY BRITS!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------

At least 1,195 Israelis and 9,126 Palestinians have been killed since September 29, 2000.

Source: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stat/deaths.html

So the Israelis killed 10 x so much unweaponed civilians. Who had nothing to do with the terrorists!!! They died already in their bombings.

How you want to call this??? Is this not TERRORISM, too?

Why the sent bombs on schools, hospitals and houses where normal innocent People live?

Do you real want to tell us that the israelian hightech army cannot locate and destroy only the terrorism camps??? BS!!!

They want to kill a lot of People and destroy the complete infrastructure in Gaza and Palestine.

And this is no

I didnt forget who where the Britts, and what they did. We both agree that they were sometimes cruel colonists.

But supporting the Nazis and their agenda is hardly any support of a freedom loving nation!

The Britts enslaves nations for their resources, but the Nazis exterminate nations for being inferior race as an ideology!

I do not remember the Indians supporting the Nazis, they were fighting them, even though they hated the Britts!

Also It is funny how something that is correct for some nations, is not ok when done by the Jews or Israel...

Not only the Arabs suffered under the Britts in Israel, but also the Jews.

The Irgun (or stein gang), the same one your side of the argument so despises, were fighting against the Britts and that is why they were called terrorists. The background for it was the "white book" which restricted immigration of Jews to Israel, which in its turn made the Britts refuse ships full of Jewish immigrants escaping the Nazis, to enter Israel, and some were sunken.

But they were not supporting the Nazis, they used to say:" We will fight the Nazis as there are no Britts and fight the Britts as there are no Nazis..." They also helped draft Jews to fight the Nazis in Europe...

The Arabs deserves no medal for their support of the Nazis, especially not the Palestinians who their leader, Haj Amin El Hussenei, used to tell the Arabs in mosques and on radio:"Kill the Jew wherever you can find him...". How many Palestinians did Israel kill at that time?

-----------------------

For your second part, i already said it before, but i guess you missed it:

There is no correlation between the number of casualties in the conflict, to the moral stance of the sides in the conflict!

In WW2 more Japanese were killed than Americans, does it mean the Japanese had the higher moral ground in the conflict? NO!

If i project your logic on future conflicts, and lets say N.Korea declares war on S.Korea, and S.Korea kills more civilians than N.Korea; does it mean N.Korea has the higher moral ground? NO!

Why? because N.Korea is a ruthless dictatorship that kills and enslaves it citizens, and threatens its neighbors.

That is exactly the problem in Gaza, where a terror organization Hamas has an extremist radical Islamic ideology, who believe that Islam is a superior religion and destined to rule the world, and it is a duty for a Muslim to kill Jews and other non believers.

You give too much credit to the abilities of a modern army to successfully avoid civilians casualties. It is exactly the opposite, modern armies are good at fighting armies in battlefields, they are not good at fighting what is called asymmetric wars, against terrorists, especially if they nest and hide between civilians, and especially in one of the densest populated areas in the world, Gaza!

The Hamas is notorious for using human shields, and deliberately wants more civilian casualties, because it is the best propaganda for people like yourself.

While Hamas invested millions of USDs on building terror tunnels to attack Israel (1 tunnel like that costs around million USD), and non on defending its citizens, Israel have building regulations which enforces a bomb shelter in every new building, plus a safe area inside every apartment. Dont forget also the millions Israel invested in a purely defensive system the iron dome, which protects its citizens from Hamas rockets.

Thats the reasons for difference in casualties on both sides.

[DPIZZA]

That picture shows exactly what's wrong with your side of the argument:

one thing that I'll give you guys credit for is the effectiveness of your propaganda and disinformation, which the guilty stricken post ww2 Europeans gladly swallow as a mean of cleansing ones conscience...

there is a good reason why nothing shows on the south side of Gaza and it's not lack of space; it should show Egyptian tanks and destruction of more than a thousand of terror tunnels...guess why a fellow Muslim state does it?

further more, that's the SMALL PICTURE. The BIG PICTURE shows whole of Israel landlocked by hate coalition of hostile Islamic states: syria, Lebanon, west bank, Jordan, Egypt,and Gazastan...beyond that you got Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Sudan and other dark members of that hate coalition!

Israel actually got long standing peace agreements with two of its neighbors (Jordan and Egypt).

The West Bank and Gaza are not countries as such.

Most of the countries mentioned are not presently a direct threat to Israel's security, the notion that they are all part of a coalition is bogus to the extreme.

It is true that Egypt and Jordan have peace agreements with Israel, but unfortunately it is a cold peace. If you do a poll in those countries about Israel, you will still find that a majority of those citizens would like to wipe Israel out of the map.

The west bank and Gaza are not countries, but they have elected governments and arms, and are no friends of Israel.

The coalition i was talking about is not militant, but of "Hate", and it is certainly ideological.

Iran is certainly a threat to Israel. it openly calls for its destruction. So is Iraq who are allies of Iran on the shiite side, and certainly the ISIS part.

Sudan helps to smuggle weapons to the Gaza strip, so it is supporting the war against Israel.

Dont need to talk about Syria and Lebanon.

[DPIZZA]

Every one who criticizes Israel is not an anti-Semite, but a huge number are and many others do it because it is fashionable on the left. Most of them have no real idea of how the conflict started or who is mostly responsible for it.

It is not importend anymore who started. Both sides done a lot of bad things.

But it's time to STOP this stupid fight/war or whatever you want call it. No one can be the winner!!!

And because the ISRAELIS don't want to talk and find a compromise all other countries must stop supporting them.

This maybe want help!!!

how about Israel giving to the Palestinians 85% of the land, and for the rest of the lands, make a land swap, giving some monetary compensation for some of the Palestinians who had to leave the territory, and something around 40,000 aloud to return?

do you think its a fair deal?

Well, Yasser Arafat and also Abu Mazen didnt think so, and rejected this offer twice!

[Morch]

That picture shows exactly what's wrong with your side of the argument:

one thing that I'll give you guys credit for is the effectiveness of your propaganda and disinformation, which the guilty stricken post ww2 Europeans gladly swallow as a mean of cleansing ones conscience...

there is a good reason why nothing shows on the south side of Gaza and it's not lack of space; it should show Egyptian tanks and destruction of more than a thousand of terror tunnels...guess why a fellow Muslim state does it?

further more, that's the SMALL PICTURE. The BIG PICTURE shows whole of Israel landlocked by hate coalition of hostile Islamic states: syria, Lebanon, west bank, Jordan, Egypt,and Gazastan...beyond that you got Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Sudan and other dark members of that hate coalition!

Israel actually got long standing peace agreements with two of its neighbors (Jordan and Egypt).

The West Bank and Gaza are not countries as such.

Most of the countries mentioned are not presently a direct threat to Israel's security, the notion that they are all part of a coalition is bogus to the extreme.

It is true that Egypt and Jordan have peace agreements with Israel, but unfortunately it is a cold peace. If you do a poll in those countries about Israel, you will still find that a majority of those citizens would like to wipe Israel out of the map.

The west bank and Gaza are not countries, but they have elected governments and arms, and are no friends of Israel.

The coalition i was talking about is not militant, but of "Hate", and it is certainly ideological.

Iran is certainly a threat to Israel. it openly calls for its destruction. So is Iraq who are allies of Iran on the shiite side, and certainly the ISIS part.

Sudan helps to smuggle weapons to the Gaza strip, so it is supporting the war against Israel.

Dont need to talk about Syria and Lebanon.

There is no requirement that peace would mean brotherly love. There's no fighting for many years, there is security cooperation and that's good enough. For all that "coalition of hate" talk, things were kept on course as per agreements. Public opinion and view does not change by signing a treaty, but rather, is a much slower process. Not as if the Israeli public views toward these countries is 100% trusting and positive either.

Iran is a threat - Saudi Arabia? Libya? Sudan? Not quite on par. Iraq, Syria and Lebanon are all currently embroiled in their own domestic troubles and do not pose any direct threat for Israel by themselves.

It is not that there are no threats to Israel's security, just that their nature of the threats and their sources have changed. The Arab, or even Muslim world is hardly as united as it used to be when it comes to its stance toward Israel.

[DPIZZA]

Every one who criticizes Israel is not an anti-Semite, but a huge number are and many others do it because it is fashionable on the left. Most of them have no real idea of how the conflict started or who is mostly responsible for it.

It isn't importend anymore who started the conflict. But it is importend to stop this conflict.

But the Problem is that the Israelis don't want to stop and talk and give the land what they occupied back. So it's time for all countries who support Israel to stop this support. A lot of Israelis don't like what their leaders do, too .

if you think that you going to stop the conflict by forcing Israel to accept situation where it endangers it security you are wrong.

if you think that Israel is the problem in this conflict you are also wrong.

if you think that Israelis would feel safe and comfortable after reading all the propaganda and hate speech coming out of some of the posts here, you are dead wrong.

It only makes Israelis be more sure that their enemies out there just waiting for the day they can throw them back to the sea.

[Ulysses G.]

Every one who criticizes Israel is not an anti-Semite, but a huge number are and many others do it because it is fashionable on the left. Most of them have no real idea of how the conflict started or who is mostly responsible for it.

And because the ISRAELIS don't want to talk and find a compromise all other countries must stop supporting them.

how about Israel giving to the Palestinians 85% of the land, and for the rest of the lands, make a land swap, giving some monetary compensation for some of the Palestinians who had to leave the territory, and something around 40,000 aloud to return?

do you think its a fair deal?

Well, Yasser Arafat and also Abu Mazen didnt think so, and rejected this offer twice!

Israel has a proven record of compromise and trading land for peace. It is the Palestinians who have refused to, over and over gain.

[green job]

Its amazing the way Israel have developed a sandy desert into a wonderfull place to live!! Do you think it may have something to do with

hard work,hygiene?

[snowgard]

I don't know why YOU not see that the Israelis do exactly the same the Nazis done. Just without the last step because for sure a lot of countries stroke back. They don't kill them all. But all other like the Nazis done before.

• they expelled the Palestinians from their Homeland
• they put the Palestinians in camps,
• took there belongings away
• they destroyed there houses
• they killed unweaponed womans, men and children.
• they destroyed the completly infrastructure (Water, Electric, Healthcentres).
• they put thousands of people in prisons without court sentences, children too
• they sent bombs on civilians, schools and hospitals,
• they don't let bring in other countries medical equipment and drugs

This all the NAZIS done before, too!!! Or not??? So we just must ask: "When the last step come???" The mass killing is the only thing missing!!!

If you kick someone out of his home, treat him every day, take all his rights away, let him sick and poor, his wife and kids too,

you don't must wait to long that him think : I loose every important thing of my life. It's same I died already. So why not fight back and send some from this bastards to the hell!!!

Think about it!!!

I am not PRO Palestinian, I don't like their Ideologie but THEY ARE PEOPLE same YOU and ME. And they want to be treatend as People and not more bad than dogs.

Edited January 30, 2015 by snowgard

[green job]

I don't know why YOU not see that the Israelis do exactly the same the Nazis done. Just without the last step because for sure a lot of countries stroke back. They don't kill them all. But all other like the Nazis done before.

• they expelled the Palestinians from their Homeland
• they put the Palestinians in camps,
• took there belongings away
• they destroyed there houses
• they killed unweaponed womans, men and children.
• they destroyed the completly infrastructure (Water, Electric, Healthcentres).
• they put thousands of people in prisons without court sentences, children too
• they sent bombs on civilians, schools and hospitals,
• they don't let bring in other countries medical equipment and drugs

This all the NAZIS done before, too!!! Or not??? So we just must ask: "When the last step come???" The mass killing is the only thing missing!!!

If you kick someone out of his home, treat him every day, take all his rights away, let him sick and poor, his wife and kids too,

you don't must wait to long that him think : I loose every important thing of my life. It's same I died already. So why not fight back and send some from this bastards to the hell!!!

Think about it!!!

I am not PRO Palestinian, I don't like their Ideologie but THEY ARE PEOPLE same YOU and ME. And they want to be treatend as People and not more bad than dogs.

You live on another planet,,,

[snowgard]

Me??? Sure not!!!

[Morch]

I don't know why YOU not see that the Israelis do exactly the same the Nazis done. Just without the last step because for sure a lot of countries stroke back. They don't kill them all. But all other like the Nazis done before.

• they expelled the Palestinians from their Homeland
• they put the Palestinians in camps,
• took there belongings away
• they destroyed there houses
• they killed unweaponed womans, men and children.
• they destroyed the completly infrastructure (Water, Electric, Healthcentres).
• they put thousands of people in prisons without court sentences, children too
• they sent bombs on civilians, schools and hospitals,
• they don't let bring in other countries medical equipment and drugs

This all the NAZIS done before, too!!! Or not??? So we just must ask: "When the last step come???" The mass killing is the only thing missing!!!

If you kick someone out of his home, treat him every day, take all his rights away, let him sick and poor, his wife and kids too,

you don't must wait to long that him think : I loose every important thing of my life. It's same I died already. So why not fight back and send some from this bastards to the hell!!!

Think about it!!!

I am not PRO Palestinian, I don't like their Ideologie but THEY ARE PEOPLE same YOU and ME. And they want to be treatend as People and not more bad than dogs.

So it's "exactly the same", apart from the "MASS EXTERMINATION" bit....right.

The Israelis did expel some of the Palestinians, not all of them. There were other factors as well leading to the Palestinians' flight.

The Israelis did not put the Palestinians in the camps, at least not in the sense that Jews were put in concentration camps.

The Israelis did not "take their belongings" away. Not in the sense that all Jewish property and belongings (including the fillings taken off corpses).

The Israelis did destroy houses. Again, not all of them.

The Israelis killed civilians - correct, so did the Palestinians, so did every known armed force since the dawn of history.

The Israelis destroyed all of the infrastructure - incorrect again. If this was a reference to the Gaza Strip alone, then limit the rest of your argument to the Gaza Strip, instead of making it a general one. Can't have it both ways.

The Israelis put thousands of Palestinian in prison without sentence - half way correct, the issue is more to do with applying the extensive appliance of martial law regulations. Not something unique to Israel, by the way.

The Israelis bombed civilian, schools and hospitals. That did happen. There were also numerous cases of Palestinian attacks on such within Israel.

Israel prevents transfer of medical supplies - incorrect. The only hitch was when Hamas refused shipments to be inspected.

It's been almost 70 years since Israel became a reality, and almost 50 years since the West Bank and Gaza Strip were conquered - there is no sign that your hyperbole nonsense about mass killing is anywhere on the horizon.

You are not Pro-Palestinian, you're Anti-Israel. That's ok, many people are.

[green job]

Germans have no right to discuss or comment on any thing to do with Israel It is not their business,and they should get their own house

in order. First we are all waiting for the downfall of the Euro followed by the EU ( unelected fools all on the gravy train) Good luck to Greece,

The Fourth Reich My arse Dream on

[Scott]

Off-topic, inflammatory posts and replies removed. Continue at your own peril.