Study: Germans have skeptical view of Israel

[Jingthing]

You've got to be kidding if you think European Jew hatred (antisemitism) started in World War 2. It's been going on for thousands of years. That was a large impetus for the Zionist POLITICAL movement long before World War 2. If Europe wasn't going to be a decent home for Jews always as a minority group, try something different. It made sense in the beginning and it still makes sense.

[JDGRUEN]

The UK population appear to share the same opinion as the Germans according to a new poll.

British citizens think worse of Israel than they do about any other non-European country except for North Korea, a British survey published this week found.

Answering the question "Which of the following do you feel especially unfavorable toward?" 35 percent named Israel scoring two points worse than Iran, the poll found.

With 47 percent, North Korea won the worst score, the Chathan House-YouGov poll found.

Source BBC and Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.640016

Your report only supports the obvious fact that the Liberal - Leftist Media of the U.K. and the EU constantly pounding anti-antisemitism and hatred of Israel has an effect of changing attitudes.

[Jay Sata]

You use the word pounding in your reply.

Do you thing the pounding of IDF missiles on Gaza civilians may have played a part in UK and German views of Israel?

Edited February 1, 2015 by Jay Sata

[JDGRUEN]

You use the word pounding in your reply.

Do you thing the pounding of IDF missiles on Gaza civilians may have played a part in UK and German views of Israel?

No -- it is the pounding of Hamas Rockets on Israeli citizens that you and the liberal - leftist UK and EU medial and people ignore...

Edited February 1, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[green job]

I think most europeans have a sceptical view of Israel (not jews in general) either openly but most often behind closed doors/unofficialy/secretly.

After the way they treated Jews who cares? It wasn't only on Germany.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Im not siding with/or against Israel and its international/domestic politics/actions in this forum.

I do believe every individual and democratically elected government representing its people have the right to voice its opinion about another countries politics/actions.

Yes jews were treated bad probably everywhere in Europe until 1945.

You know, thats a long time ago.

The people that were adults then are a minority now. Most people living now were not even born during pre-WW2.

NO Germany have no right at all. Treated probably bad!!!! what planet do you live on? In this case time does not matter .

You are way way out of your depth here, Better if you know nothing is to keep trap shut

[Steely Dan]

You use the word pounding in your reply.

Do you thing the pounding of IDF missiles on Gaza civilians may have played a part in UK and German views of Israel?

Nope, if the UK population weren't treated like supine sheep by the liberal elites and their press lackeys they might be more concerned by the likes of North Sudan, which committed a genocide of millions, perhaps Syria where over 200,000 have died. You could multiply the number of dead Palestinians tenfold and most British citizens would barely shrug if it were say Syria doing the killings.

[BKKBobby]

I think most europeans have a sceptical view of Israel (not jews in general) either openly but most often behind closed doors/unofficialy/secretly.

After the way they treated Jews who cares? It wasn't only on Germany.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Im not siding with/or against Israel and its international/domestic politics/actions in this forum.

I do believe every individual and democratically elected government representing its people have the right to voice its opinion about another countries politics/actions.

Yes jews were treated bad probably everywhere in Europe until 1945.

You know, thats a long time ago.

The people that were adults then are a minority now. Most people living now were not even born during pre-WW2.

NO Germany have no right at all. Treated probably bad!!!! what planet do you live on? In this case time does not matter .

You are way way out of your depth here, Better if you know nothing is to keep trap shut

When I used the word 'bad' I was refering to the treatment of jews outside Germany and countries/regions allied with or occupied by Germany and its allies.

Theres no word in the dictionary that fits to describe the horrible acts done by Nazi-Germany and its allies/supporters during the time leading up to the start of and during WW2 against the jews.

Edited February 1, 2015 by BKKBobby

[Morch]

The UK population appear to share the same opinion as the Germans according to a new poll.

British citizens think worse of Israel than they do about any other non-European country except for North Korea, a British survey published this week found.

Answering the question "Which of the following do you feel especially unfavorable toward?" 35 percent named Israel scoring two points worse than Iran, the poll found.

With 47 percent, North Korea won the worst score, the Chathan House-YouGov poll found.

Source BBC and Haaretz.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.640016

The post above is a good demonstration of how current event as presented by media have an effect on public opinion. It also demonstrates the power of headlines and short summaries, which often convey less than accurate information. Compounded with posts on open forums which are not held to any standard, makes things worse.

From the original report -

The number of those viewing Israel unfavorably has increased by 18 points since 2012, presumably in response to the controversial military campaign in Gaza and the civilian casualties in caused, which were prominent in the new at the time the survey was conducted.

http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/field/field_document/20150129YouGovRaines.pdf?dm_i=1TY5,34ZC7,BHZIRQ,B8VH2,1 (page 10).

In the 2012 poll Israel comes 6th, while Iran wins gold (which could be linked to the attack on the UK embassy in Teheran, Nov. 2011) - http://www.chathamhouse.org/sites/files/chathamhouse/public/Research/Europe/0712ch_yougov_surveyanalysis.pdf (page 26).

[Choctastic]

I haven't found any results but am wondering what impact the Hasbara apparatus has had on public opinion?

[Jingthing]

I haven't found any results but am wondering what impact the Hasbara apparatus has had on public opinion?

Are you really wondering or do you just love to repeatedly invoke the word Hasbara as if providing information about the good things about Israel is the most evil thing going in the world today?

[Choctastic]

I haven't found any results but am wondering what impact the Hasbara apparatus has had on public opinion?

Are you really wondering or do you just love to repeatedly invoke the word Hasbara as if providing information about the good things about Israel is the most evil thing going in the world today?

There is good news on here about Israel? I have yet to see it. Only those who 'just love to repeatedly invoke' 'rockets', 'hamas', 'holocaust', 'anti-semitism', 'muslims' and so forth. I mention hasbara 2 or 3 times and your radar goes off like a siren.

Yes. I am genuinely interested in whether the efforts made by pro-Israelis to counter anti-Israeli feeling have borne any fruit. Hasbara trolls, in my opinion, cause more harm than good. They do not allow an honest dialogue and they arrogantly dismiss justifiable feelings about Israel's behaviour. 'You aren't justified in your feelings. You anti-semite'. Do you really think that approach is tenable? What do the psychological models say?

Those spreading the 'good news' otherwise known as 'bullying', should have some system of feedback to see if their 'changing of hearts and minds' actually works. In Germany or elsewhere.

America can be excluded. It's a propaganda basket-case.

[mania]

Those spreading the 'good news' otherwise known as 'bullying', should have some system of feedback to see if their 'changing of hearts and minds' actually works. In Germany or elsewhere.

I have a theory about this.....At least in regards to the campaigning/defending done here on TV World Forum

I always thought a poster should look at their total post count vs the likes their posts receive.

If the likes they receive is not 50% of total post count or at least close then perhaps they

are just flappin their gums & should rethink their approach 555

Which BTW..... you seem to be doing quite well with a post count of 236 with 246 likes I would say your doing something right

And before anyone calls me a shill I do not think I have ever given Choc a like 555

Then again I do not read here often anymore ....too depressing

Edited February 2, 2015 by mania

[johna]

With the exception of America, the rest of the world pretty much shares the German view if Israel. This does not come as a surprise to anyone.

http://jpupdates.com/2015/02/01/recent-survey-35-british-dislike-israel/

[Steely Dan]

With the exception of America, the rest of the world pretty much shares the German view if Israel. This does not come as a surprise to anyone.

http://jpupdates.com/2015/02/01/recent-survey-35-british-dislike-israel/

As your article states, Israel is portrayed as the root of all evil by the press. Little wonder Israel isn't popular. I would note the German anti-Islamization movement, who are given a similar press, refer to the media as the 'lying press'.

There is really no news value in the fact the press lie, what is of more interest is why this is?

[Morch]

With the exception of America, the rest of the world pretty much shares the German view if Israel. This does not come as a surprise to anyone.

http://jpupdates.com/2015/02/01/recent-survey-35-british-dislike-israel/

Pays to actually read the topic, or the link you provide before posting (the very same poll was mentioned already, and it does not refer to the rest of the world, but to the UK):

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=9019310

[metisdead]

A troll post with paid to post allegations has been removed.

[harryfrompattaya]

After what the Germans did I bet they are not well like by Israel Poland and Russia Do you think Israel loves Germany?

Did Germany ever like Jews? 400 years ago their was Marin Luther

Edited February 3, 2015 by harryfrompattaya

[JingerBen]

After what the Germans did I bet they are not well like by Israel Poland and Russia Do you think Israel loves Germany?

Did Germany ever like Jews? 400 years ago their was Marin Luther

You're right, they all hate each other's guts.

That pervasive venom is what makes Europe stink.

[DPIZZA]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Every one who criticizes Israel is not an anti-Semite, but a huge number are and many others do it because it is fashionable on the left. Most of them have no real idea of how the conflict started or who is mostly responsible for it.

Like the Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel in 1948?

No, Like the massacres of 1929, where Arabs murdered 133, and maimed, raped and plundered 339 Jews...

How many lands were taken and houses demolished by the State of Israel (which was founded in 1948) back then, huh?

[DPIZZA]

A lot of brainwash is fed to world population about Palestinian terrorists. How about a freedom fighters? Israelis doing ethnic cleansing, killing Palestinian adult and children, grabbing illegally their houses and land, doing what not even apartheid did in S.Africa. they know what Germans to them. Why to replicate the crimes they are so familiar with? Freedom fighters are not terrorists, not the criminals. What venue they are left with fighting for their stolen rights? All countries in the Second World War were fighting Germans to get freedom, however, Germans call them terrorists. This same should apply to everybody with no exception because they are Jews. This is clearly a double standard. Jews are the chosen race and better and the rest of the world just goim, as Spinoza said : ..."Spinoza in an oft-cited passage in his Theologico-Political Treatise: “That they [the Jews] are preserved largely through the hatred of other nations is demonstrated by historical fact.”

Do you want to add anything to it, or this is just enough?

Add? i want to show you how false this thing you wrote is!

I agree with 1 thing, there is a lot of brainwashing about the Palestinians, of being a nation of humanists who just being terrorized by Israel, thats the real brainwash!

You claim that Israel is doing an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:

Since i wanted it to be clear for both of us what we are talking about, i checked the definition of the term:

" Ethnic Cleansing: the MASS expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society."

And then i thought to myself that you are already too far out there to really listen to my arguments so i thought: how can we logically test this assumption of yours? and then i got it!

If Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinians then there should be a massive decline in their population, or at least some decline or no growth. Logical?

So i checked the census numbers, and guess what?

Not only there is no decline, but it is ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING POPULATIONS IN THE WORLD!":

According to a 2008 article in The Guardian, using PCBS census figures, the Palestinian territories have one of the fastest growing populations in the world, with numbers surging 30% in the past decade (2008). There were 3.76 million Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, up from 2.89 million 10 years earlier.

According to the U.S. Census, population growth mid-1990-2008 in Gaza and West Bank was 106% from 1.9 million (1990) to 3.9 million persons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

You might say that they are slowly starving to death by Israel, but guess what? i checked that too...

According to the economist: THE PALESTINIANS ARE 8'th IN OBESITY IN THE WORLD!"

check this link:

http://vladtepesblog.com/2010/04/03/starving-palestinians/

i would have addressed any word of lie in your comment, but i dont have time for that!

just a final word about Freedom Fighters: freedom fighters do not blow themselves up on buses full of women and children, they fight soldiers! freedom fighters do not sneak at night to houses to smash babies heads in their cradle!

Freedom fighters do not declare their intention is to destroy another nation!

Hamas doesnt want only Gaza which they have already. they say it all the time: they will not stop until all Palestine will be liberated, which means ALL OF ISRAEL, and the JEWS TO THE SEA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

here is how they educat their children:

[DPIZZA]

The Jews always cry anti-Semitism, the Palestinians are just as Semitic if not more so, as they are native to the area, unlike the Khazar's.

It is true that all Arabs are semites, but at the time the term was coined by a German scholar, it was exclusively referenced to hatred of Jews, since their were few to non Arabs in Europe.

Anyway, it is not a scientific term, since Sem (shem) was the son of Noah, of whom Abraham the patriarch of Jews and Arabs was a descendant (according to the bible).

But your reply does show the tactic of your side of the argument: taking the rights and arguments of your adversary, and claiming it as their own:

The Jews originated from Israel 2000 years ago: The Pali claim to be there before the Jews..

The Jews suffered from antisemitism: The muslims suffer from islamophobia...OR antisemitism is hatred of Arabs...

The Jews suffered from a holocaust: The Palis suffered the Nakba (the deportation of Palis in 1948)...

The Jews have the right of return to Israel: The Palis want the right of return of refugees to Palestine...

The Jews had their holly temple in Jerusalem: The Muslims built their mosque on it, and its now their holly site...

The Palis / Muslim agenda is to discredit the Jews first of their culture/history/heritage and later to take the same arguments of culture/history/heritage and transform them to a Muslim/Arab one...

Even though that the Khazar myth has no scientific or factual proof, just for the argument, lets say the European Jews came from them.

What about the other half of the Jews who came from Morocco,Egypt,Iraq,Yemen,India esc... are they also Khazars?!?!?

[BKKBobby]

A lot of brainwash is fed to world population about Palestinian terrorists. How about a freedom fighters? Israelis doing ethnic cleansing, killing Palestinian adult and children, grabbing illegally their houses and land, doing what not even apartheid did in S.Africa. they know what Germans to them. Why to replicate the crimes they are so familiar with? Freedom fighters are not terrorists, not the criminals. What venue they are left with fighting for their stolen rights? All countries in the Second World War were fighting Germans to get freedom, however, Germans call them terrorists. This same should apply to everybody with no exception because they are Jews. This is clearly a double standard. Jews are the chosen race and better and the rest of the world just goim, as Spinoza said : ..."Spinoza in an oft-cited passage in his Theologico-Political Treatise: “That they [the Jews] are preserved largely through the hatred of other nations is demonstrated by historical fact.”

Do you want to add anything to it, or this is just enough?

Add? i want to show you how false this thing you wrote is!

I agree with 1 thing, there is a lot of brainwashing about the Palestinians, of being a nation of humanists who just being terrorized by Israel, thats the real brainwash!

You claim that Israel is doing an ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians:

Since i wanted it to be clear for both of us what we are talking about, i checked the definition of the term:

" Ethnic Cleansing: the MASS expulsion or killing of members of an unwanted ethnic or religious group in a society."

And then i thought to myself that you are already too far out there to really listen to my arguments so i thought: how can we logically test this assumption of yours? and then i got it!

If Israel is ethnically cleansing Palestinians then there should be a massive decline in their population, or at least some decline or no growth. Logical?

So i checked the census numbers, and guess what?

Not only there is no decline, but it is ONE OF THE FASTEST GROWING POPULATIONS IN THE WORLD!":

According to a 2008 article in The Guardian, using PCBS census figures, the Palestinian territories have one of the fastest growing populations in the world, with numbers surging 30% in the past decade (2008). There were 3.76 million Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem, up from 2.89 million 10 years earlier.

According to the U.S. Census, population growth mid-1990-2008 in Gaza and West Bank was 106% from 1.9 million (1990) to 3.9 million persons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Palestinian_territories

You might say that they are slowly starving to death by Israel, but guess what? i checked that too...

According to the economist: THE PALESTINIANS ARE 8'th IN OBESITY IN THE WORLD!"

check this link:

http://vladtepesblog.com/2010/04/03/starving-palestinians/

i would have addressed any word of lie in your comment, but i dont have time for that!

just a final word about Freedom Fighters: freedom fighters do not blow themselves up on buses full of women and children, they fight soldiers! freedom fighters do not sneak at night to houses to smash babies heads in their cradle!

Freedom fighters do not declare their intention is to destroy another nation!

Hamas doesnt want only Gaza which they have already. they say it all the time: they will not stop until all Palestine will be liberated, which means ALL OF ISRAEL, and the JEWS TO THE SEA!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i08L09V0_sg

here is how they educat their children:

About population growth...

From what ive understood Israel imported massive amounts of Russians, and not all of them are really jews. By doing this you change the demographics in favor of non-arabs since the government gets more power.

Maybe, just maybe Israel keeps up with building settlements and making Gaza an open-air prison to squeeze out the arabs?

Maybe the long-term policy is to make the Israeli arabs become a part of the eastern neighbours of Israel?

I dont know.

Edited February 4, 2015 by BKKBobby

[DPIZZA]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

According to Finkelstein the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology

Those who can't import those books can find conferences given by both professors on Youtube.

Don't argue with me : both authors are really not hot headed Arabs writing blogs from a PC in their kitchen : just read their books and the many academic sources they refer to.

In fact if King David, King Solomon, Moses etc...are mythological figures the same way as King Arthur and his Caste of Camelot ..it is not only a problem for the people of Jewish faith but also for those of Christian and Muslim faith.

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Of course Sand's views are controversial! His views threaten, in particular, Jewish Orthodoxy and also Zionism.

With those two groups disliking what he says, one has to, in all reasonableness, wonder if in fact any controversy is genuine or contrived, and if genuine, based on what facts?

... based on what facts? Mythology is never based on facts.

One can only consider was is possible and what is likely

Is it possible that Moses crossed the Red Sea with 600.000 people and wandered in the desert during 40 years without leaving anything (pottery..) to be checked by archaeologists? It is unlikely...

Is it possible those 600.000 needed 40 years before find their way to the Promised Land. It is unlikely unless you start to read what Prof Ben Shannon of Jerusalem's Hebrew University suggests i.e. that they were "high"

I already said it, but i guess you missed it, so i repeat it for you:

There is no need to prove that every bit of the things that are told in the bible ever happened. We know that the bible was written by someone and its up to your faith to decide if it was invented or really happened.

The most important thing is that the bible was written by the Jews from Judea, and it was written in Israel, and the Jews today are their descendants, and they still keep their culture and traditions.

For that there are plenty of archaeological and historical references.

Here is a new news item about a recent discovery, which proves the exile of Jews by Babylon, after the destruction of the first temple:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4622505,00.html

BTW, i never heard anyone doubting or asking the Palestinians for proofs of them to supposedly being the ancient people they say they are...

Please show me which customs and traditions connects the Palestinians to the ancient people of Knaan !

[DPIZZA]

Shlomo Sand, professor of History at Tel Aviv University wrote books "The invention of the Jewish People" and "The Invention of the land of Israel"

Basically he brings academic evidence to illustrate that the people claiming to be Jewish to-day are not at all the same people who lived in Palestine 2000 years ago.

It is obvious he considers that the modern Jews (Zionists) started to occupy modern Israel and that they are the real aggressors...

Finally Israel Finkelstein, Professor of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University backs up all what Prof Shlomo Sand writes, with his own stunning book : "The Bible Unearthed"

Sand's views are controversial, and are not by any means considered definitive (the books popularity notwithstanding). Also, many people tend to confuse the arguments he raises (some are quite valid, some are out there), and at the same time disregard Sand's political agenda.

Finkelstein's research is more solid, actually. However, I do not think that the claim made is that "the whole story of the ancient people of Israel (and Judea) is mythology" as such - nothing that simplistic, if not supportive of Jewish folklore and literal interpretations of the bible.

Apart from the obvious political and social controversy, there was quite a bit of academic criticism - which is what I had in mind when posting. Hence the reference for Sand's views not being definitive. which is a term which would be meaningless in the context you apply (political and social are rarely definitive). This criticism had more to do with his premises, methodology, presentation and conclusions.

Religion has to reply to the question : why

Science, including history has to reply to the question : how

Both should not be mixed but it is done all the time....

Sand takes the point of view of science of not of faith :

- faith dictates that we believe the city of Jericho and all his inhabitants ...men...women...children...and even cattle had to be slaughtered at the instructions of the cruel Jewish God (Joshua 6:1-27)

- science learns us through Shlomo Sand that there is no trace of the so-called collapsed walls of Jericho

ill say it again:

When concerning the right of the Jews over Israel, it doesnt matter if the bible had really happened or invented.

The important thing is that the bible was written by the Jews in the land of Israel and Judea, and that the Jews today still holds the traditions and cultures of their ancestors.

For that there are plenty of historical, cultural, and archaeological proofs.

Just because some Jewish professor doesnt feel comfortable with his religion or his ethnic culture and writes a book about it, doesnt mean that the whole scientific community changed their world view according to it...

but besides that, can you show me what archaeological proofs does the Palestinians have for them being an ancient people (or even a distinct unique nation) who continuously settled the same land for thousands of years?

Can you count their kings, or show me their coins? can you show me the traditions they kept for thousands of years?

Here are a few of the proofs of the Jewish presence in Israel:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4622505,00.html

[DPIZZA]

Who are interested who are the real aggressor must look this Video on YouTube.

An honest Israeli Jew tells the Real Truth about Israel - from Miko Peled, Son of General Peled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etXAm-OylQQ

It is not honesty, it is an Israeli with far left political opinions, which is allowed in Israel because its a democracy. This kind of opinions cannot be heard on the other side (Arab Muslim society) of the conflict, because any opinion against the consensus will encounter death threats and persecution (Although there are a few brave Arabs who actually manage to voice their opinions, ill talk about that later).

When Arabs that are not used to democracy and freedom of speech hear people voicing their opinion like that, it confuses them, and they immediately think this must be true if he voices his opinion like that against the consensus, or it creates a mistrust feeling in them.

The question you have to answer yourself is what kind of society do you want to live in?

One that let you voice your own opinions and have freedom of thought and speech, or the kind that controls your opinion and mind!

Israel as a democracy is a conceptual threat to the Arab tyrants around it. They dont want their people to get ideas about freedom and democracy in the area. I used to say that much before the so called "Arab spring", and it actually proves my point:

Those same Arab tyrants, who were bashing Israel for their treatment of the Palestinians, were never interested in the Palestinians well being, or even any basic human rights! They used the "Palestinian cause" to distract their own citizens mind from their own grave situation!

It is true to Assad president of Syria, who managed in a few years to murder more Arabs then in the whole 70 years of Arab Israeli conflict!

it was true to Saddam president of Iraq who gassed to death Kurdish minorities and Shiite dissidents.

It was true to Qaddafi from Libya, Ben Ali from Tunisia, Ali Abdullah from Yemen and even Mubarak from Egypt (that had a peace treaty with Israel, but found any opportunity to bash Israel).

It is also true to the leaders of Iran, Hezbollah, Sudan, ISIS and the rest of the bunch...

Otherwise, how can you explain the persecution and discrimination of Palestinians in Arab lands?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKv2GGw7f4M&NR=1

[DPIZZA]

What happened in Nazi-germany and Europe some 70-80 years ago, resulted in a lot of sympathy for the jewish people. Yet, what's happening now in Israel en Palestine, rapidly takes away that sympathy. Seems like the israelian authorities did not learn from the atrocities done unto them, and treat the palestinians just as bad. Most europeans feel that way, certainly not only the majority of germans.

Was it not for the "just as bad" bit, your post would have been spot on.

Reality check: There is no mass extermination of Palestinians.

No gas chambers but mass ethnic cleansing to create Jewish lebensraum . 4 million refugees under occupation by Israelis and another 5 million in the Palestinian diaspora, and the Palestinians used to be the 94% majority (according to U Grants own admission) in Palestine until Zionists arrived as uninvited guest in the 1890s to steal and occupy the land.

The fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Declaration_of_Independence

Go figure who the invaders and terrorists are.

Here, this proves your hypocrisy:

Now suddenly there are 9 million Palestinian refugees?!?!? just 2 years ago i refuted the claims of 4 million refugees,and now they became 9 millions?

Are they all the fault of Israel? according to your system, in about 20 years from now when they become 30 million, you will say that Israel expelled 30 million refugees from Palestine?

Does anyone doesnt understand whats wrong with this picture?!?

The Palestinian refugee problem is an invented, over estimated and blown out of any proportions problem!

It is true that there were Arabs who lost their homes and became refugees in 1948 civil war between Jews and Arabs (yes, it was a civil war!), but the numbers here are out of proportion and being such for political propaganda!

the estimates are about 400,000 to 700,000 Arab refugees due to the conflict.

Israel accepted the Arabs inside its territory as equal rights citizens (21% of Israelis are Arab mostly Muslims), and by that was the only country in the middle east who actually helped to solve the so called Palestinian refugee problem ! (except Jordan, but that didnt last long!)

All the other Arab countries, who so much claim to care about the Palestinian cause, didnt allow any Palestinian refugees to receive citizenship in their own countries, or even basic human rights!

All that so they can cynically use the refugees and their suffering as a pressure and propaganda tool against Israel!

They never cared for the Palestinians or lofty notions as human rights!

To top that all, the same countries (Syria,Iraq,Lebanon,Egypt,Libya,Tunisia esc...) expelled 800,000 Jewish Arab from their lands! some of them after riots, slaughters and pogroms, some of them not allowed to take any property but the shirt on their back, causing a second refugee problem, which they hoped will overload Israel with refugees and cause it to collapse!

In some countries those Jews, were living in there before even the start of Islam, for example in Iraq- how dared they expel those people?

And my proof for the hypocrisy is that nobody ever ever mentions the tragedy of the Jewish Arabs (or maybe even know about it), and there isnt and never was any organization by the UN or any body that took care of their plight!

BUT when it comes to the Palestinians? You got A SPECIAL ORGANIZATION ONLY FOR PALESTINIANS called UNRWA, and then an organization called UNHCR FOR THE REST OF THE WORLD!

an organization who instead of trying to solve the problem, exist only to perpetuate it, and all from your tax money!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFN-yrecx1c

[arjunadawn]

I haven't found any results but am wondering what impact the Hasbara apparatus has had on public opinion?

Are you really wondering or do you just love to repeatedly invoke the word Hasbara as if providing information about the good things about Israel is the most evil thing going in the world today?

Sorry, but this exchange is very funny.

[DPIZZA]

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Ex IDF Special Forces Miko Peled is indeed qualified to tell the truth about the suffering to the Palestinians caused by Israel’s establishment through the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists..he, his father, and his grandfather have been part of that Zionist military machine that caused the problem. He has now turned to making peace with his neighbors, something PM Netanyahu has never dreamt of doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

You again with your propaganda?

AGAIN, i want to show you what a hypocrite you are:

"If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist."

lets address what you said: You apparently have no problem deciding who should have a right of citizenship when it comes to Israel, not that it is strange you think you have any say in this, but it is also obvious from your previous comments that you support the right of the Palestinians (all of 9 million of them by your counting!) to return to Israel!

its been already 67 years since 1948, how many of the Palestinians who left Israel/Palestine do you think still alive today? huh? how many of those 9 millions ever laid one foot in Israel/Palestine?

I assure you that a very small percentage, so dont give me that crap of "Born not born in Israel", because when it comes to the Palestinians you have no problem bringing people who never even saw Israel/Palestine to live there!

You also forgetting there are at the moment second,thirds and forth generation of Israelis born and raised in Israel. where do you suggest they will go?

The right of return of the Palestinians is just a tactic not to recognize Israel. The Palestinians know very well that if 9 or even 4 million Palestinians will return to Israel, there wont be any Israel, and they know that there isnt a single Israeli government who can sign such crazy suicide letter/peace agreement!

Now about your other subject:

"Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:"

It is true that they werent born in Israel. It is true that they were immigrants, but illegal? who exactly decided they were illegal? I guess since there wasnt any Palestinian state at the time or ever before, so it must have been the British!

Again, what is allowed for the Palestinians is not allowed for the Jews...

Your side of the argument always brings the point that British were ruthless colonists who illegally occupied Palestine/Israel, and thus had no right to decide who live over there, BUT when it comes to Jews, you have no problem accepting the British authority and accepting their determination that those people were "Illegal immigrants"!?!?!

did i say hypocrite already?

[DPIZZA]

Well, as a member of the Zionist fringe you would say that wouldn't you. Your litotes doesn't fool anyone.

I think Miko Peled is a very brave man to speak the truth and he is very well qualified considering his background. One day he will be hailed as a righteous Israeli.

Me? Zionist fringe? Interesting.

Not that I clearly know what that means, but judging from my on record and consistent views regarding Israel's illegal (here it is again) settlement efforts, I'd say I would probably not be well accepted at your fantasy "Zionist Fringe", whatever this may be.

Miko Peled is indeed a good and brave man, all the more so for publicly holding unpopular politically fringe opinions. Perhaps it would do to point out that terming something fringe does not necessarily mean one is diametrically opposed to said views, the all or nothing tunnel vision is boring. As for his views being "the truth" - this is in as much as political opinion is true. How is Peled "very well qualified considering his background" is anybody's guess - there are ex-special forces and sons of generals on most sides of the Israeli political spectrum. Israel's Prime Minister is ex-special forces, does this suggest that his is "very well qualified considering his background" as well? As far as I am concerned, Miko Peled could be hailed as a righteous Israeli right now, but he's still in the fringe politics zone.

And one last pearl, in another post you erroneously stated that "the fact that 36 of the 37 signatories to the Israeli Declaration of Independence were illegal Jewish immigrants mainly from Eastern Europe speaks volumes" (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/795049-study-germans-have-skeptical-view-of-israel/?p=8995267) - would that include Miko Peled's grandfather?

"His grandfather, Dr. Avraham Katsnelson was a Zionist leader and signer on the Israeli Declaration of Independence."

http://mikopeled.com/

If you believe that Jews anywhere in the world have an automatic right [some religious nut jobs say god given right] to live in Israel simply because they have a Jewish grandmother or have converted to Judaism, while Palestinians who were actually born there do not, then you are a Zionist.

Ex IDF Special Forces Miko Peled is indeed qualified to tell the truth about the suffering to the Palestinians caused by Israel’s establishment through the mass immigration and aggression of Zionists..he, his father, and his grandfather have been part of that Zionist military machine that caused the problem. He has now turned to making peace with his neighbors, something PM Netanyahu has never dreamt of doing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled

Nothing erroneous about my statement at all... 36 out of 37 of Israel’s founders were illegal immigrants born outside Palestine and indeed it is a pearl that speaks volumes. Here’s the list along with their birthplaces:

Eliyahu Berligne (Belarus), Eliyahu Dobkin (Belarus), Eliezer Kaplan (Belarus), Avraham Katznelson (Belarus), Moshe Kolodny (Belarus), David Remez (Belarus), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Belarus), Zerach Warhaftig (Belarus), Aharon Zisling (Belarus), Meir David Loewenstein (Denmark), Fritz Bernstein (Germany), Wolf Gold (Germany), Felix Rosenblueth (Germany), David-Zvi Pinkas (Hungary), Herzl Vardi (Lithuania), Meir Vilner (Lithuania), Yehuda Leib Fishman (Moldova), Meir Grabovsky (Moldova), Avraham Granovsky (Moldova), David Ben-Gurion (Poland), Mordechai Bentov (Poland), Yitzhak Gruenbaum (Poland), Yitzhak-Meir Levin (Poland), Zvi Luria (Poland), Nahum Nir (Poland), Zvi Segal (Poland), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Tiberias), Daniel Auster (Ukraine), Yitzhak Ben-Zvi (Ukraine), Rachel Cohen-Kagan (Ukraine), Kalman Kahana (Ukraine), Golda Meyerson (Ukraine), Berl Repetur (Ukraine), Ben-Zion Sternberg (Ukraine), Moshe Shertok (Ukraine), Saadia Kobashi (Yemen), Mordechai Shatner (Latvia)

Except for the Yemeni, a bunch of Caucasians.....ironically much closer genetically to Aryans than to Semites.

You know what? i'm tried of your racial stupidity, but i'm not going to comment about your problem with "the Ashkenaz Jews Jewish racial Purity", honestly because my head hurts already...

I just cant understand how you cant understand, that what you are doing is not better then what the Nazis did, but for opposite reasons!

For the Nazis Jews werent white enough they were Semite, so they first wanted to expel them. When that didnt work, they decided to exterminate them!

For you, Jews are not black enough to live in Israel because they are Caucasians, and that is why you want to expel them from there!

Anyway you look at it, you are no lover of Jews (notice i dont use antisemite, because i spear me another headache...)!

and you and the Nazis have more in common than you think, so do remember that next time you call a Jew a Nazi...

On the other hand, you mentioned the Yemenite Jews, what about the Moroccan Jews, or Iraqi Jews, or Egyptian, Tunisian, Algerians, Libyan, Syrian, Iranian, Indian(from India), Ethiopian, Bucharen (from Uzbekistan), Kurdish, Afghan Jews?!?!

Are they ok too? or they are not enough Jewish for you "more strict than a Jewish Rabbai" person?

If so, we already solved half of the Israelis racial profile for you, because they ARE half of the Jewish population!

But Oy Vei Zmir Rabbai! what happens when one of those "racially certificated Jew" of yours marries one of those Ashkenazi Jews, what about their children? are they good enough to be Jewish?

DO YOU UNDERSTAND HOW RIDICULOUS YOUR IDEA IS?

[BKKBobby]

No one should have any automatic rights to become citizens of a country if the decision is based on religion.

Off topic, I consider it a fairy tail triology. Torah, bible and the koran. Jesus had followers that added a lot of stuff to the old testament to be able to sell his new version to jews. Muhammed did version number three where he acknowleged version 1 and 2 so he easier could get converts.