Krabi Immigration - Extension of Stay - Retirement - First App

[JDGRUEN]

Krabi Immigration - Applying for my first Extension of Stay - Retirement.

I have researched many dozens of TVF Threads and Posts on this subject. I have learned much - but find I still need clarification.

First - In applying for an Extension of Stay based on Retirement at the Krabi Immigration office - are there any peculiarities to watch out for at that office? Are there any documentation requirements that are a bit different or in addition to what is expected elsewhere ... that anyone might know about? I just like to be prepared.

My current status: Currently nearing the end of my last Permission to Stay under a Non Immigrant 'O' Multi-Entry Visa acquired in America. Last Border Run - Exit and Re-Entry - 12 DEC 2014... Current Permission to Stay Expires 11 MAR 2015. (First entry into Thailand 18 JAN 2014. Multi 'O' Visa issued on 16 DEC 2013).

I plan to submit my Extension Application about 15 FEB 2015 or so. I am going to make an appointment soon and will go to the American Embassy on or about 8 to 11 FEB to obtain an Embassy Letter/Affidavit relative to meeting financial qualifications for the Retirement Extension.

I do not have a Thai Bank Account. My Checking and Savings Accounts are in America. I read that The Embassy Affidavit should be accepted by Thai Immigration as Proof of Financial Requirements, but that I should have Bank Letters (or copies of bank statements?) to back that up - if they insist on further proof. I meet the financial requirements using a combination of monthly pension income and savings. Twelve months of pension direct deposits plus my savings exceeds the 800,000 Baht equivalent requirement. Note: My monthly pension is less than 65,000 Baht but the combined total of 12 months pension added to my savings account balance exceeds the 800K amount.

I am not sure if Thai Immigration would accept my proof of a combo financial situation - held in an American Bank - not in a Thai Bank... (if they insisted on proof beyond the Embassy letter/affidavit).

Question about the bank letter: Is there a specific format? ... Is it just a ledger/listing of my monthly pension deposits over the past 12 months and the latest balance of my Savings account - done on a bank letterhead or what?

I have a copy of the TM.7 Form and working on filling it out - using information and examples found on TVF posts. I am not sure of the best way to document my residence. My landlord said he would fill out any required forms (TM.30?) or sign a rental agreement. Any advice on this would be appreciated.

I have a passport size recent photograph for the TM.7 Form, I will make copies of the Passport Pages and the TM.6 Departure Card - and sign it.

Also - please let me know if I have assumed, miss-assumed or misunderstood something, or otherwise got it wrong as to what I should do. I am seeking kindly offered clarification and advice. I am open to amending my approach. Have I left anything out as to what I should do?

[Lite Beer]

As far as I know the money has to be in a Thai Bank if using a combination of pension and savings.

2.22 In the case of retirement:
Each permission shall be granted for no more than one year.The alien:
(1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM).
(2) Must be 50 years of age or over.
(3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month: or (4) On the filing date, the applicant must have funds deposited in a bank in Thailand of no less than Baht 800,000 for the past three months. For the first year only, the applicant must have proof of a deposit account in which said amount of funds has been maintained for no less than 60 days prior to the filing date: or
(5) Must have an annual earning and fluids deposited with a bank totaling no less than Baht 800,0000 as of the filing date.

1. Application form
2. Copy of applicant’s passport
3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or
4. Funds deposit certificate issued by a bank in Thailand and a copy of a bankbook

[ubonjoe]

I don't recall any reports of Krabi asking for back up proof.

If asked you could use a bank statement showing ATM withdrawals here. And/or if you are on social security you could also show your statement.

Immigration will not accept a combination of income with money in the bank outside the country. But saving can be equated to income since you can take money out of the account it to make it a monthly income.

By going early to get your extension and there was problem with proving your income you would have time to open an account and move some money in. For the combination option the money only has to in the bank on the date you apply.

[JDGRUEN]

Thank you both ... I can print statements from my savings and checking accounts showing ATM withdraws and Social Security Direct Deposits ... A lot of paper but I am willing to do it. It is good to hear that Krabi Immigration has no track record of asking for financial proof to back up the Embassy Letter/Affidavit... makes it simpler.

I am going to go as early as reasonably possible. I have to get to BKK First and the U.S. Embassy asap it would seem to speed up the process.

As an old soldier - I always have contingency plans -- if I need more time -

[ubonjoe]

You just missed a chance to of gotten your affidavit in Phuket. There was an embassy outreach there on the 30th.

If you have not found it yet you can fill out affidavit form online and print it before you go to the embassy. http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/notarial-services.html#income_affidavit

[Sophon]

I don't recall any reports of Krabi asking for back up proof.

If asked you could use a bank statement showing ATM withdrawals here. And/or if you are on social security you could also show your statement.

Immigration will accept a combination of income with money in the bank outside the country. But saving can be equated to income since you can take money out of the account it to make it a monthly income.

By going early to get your extension and there was problem with proving your income you would have time to open an account and move some money in. For the combination option the money only has to in the bank on the date you apply.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but to me what you are saying here doesn't make any sense:

Immigration will accept a combination of income with money in the bank outside the country. But saving can be equated to income since you can take money out of the account it to make it a monthly income.

Since when will Immigration accept a combination of income and money in a bank outside Thailand? And if savings in a foreign bank could be equated to income, then everyone with savings in their home country in excess of (the equivalent of) THB 800k would qualify for a retirement extension, and we all know that it doesn't work that way. Taking money out of your savings doesn't make it income.

To qualify for a retirement extension you need:

• Monthly income THB 65k
• THB 800k in an account in a bank in Thailand
• A combination of annual income plus funds in an account in a bank in Thailand totalling 800k

From what the OP says it seems to me that he doesn't presently qualify for the retirement extension. His income is not enough to meet the income requirement, and he doesn't have any money in a bank in Thailand to make up for the shortfall. To qualify he would have to open a Thai bank account and transfer enough money to that so that he could meet the combination requirement.

Are you suggesting that he should "bend the truth" when doing the income affidavit to include some of his savings as income? It might work with him being from the U.S., but it wouldn't be truthful. People from other countries where the embassy require proof of income would never be able to do this, since the embassy would not include savings in the income calculation. Again because being able to take money from your savings doesn't make it income.

What am I missing here?

Sophon

[ubonjoe]

I fixed a typo where I left out a not.

Savings can be considered income because you can withdraw funds on monthly basis. I think you might surprised what some countries will allow to establish a monthly income for an income letter.

[mikebike]

For your first extension I would strongly recommend going to the immigration office and getting an officer to detail what is required at that location. Saved me issues with my first extension in NST... their requirements were different than Phuket.

[Sophon]

I fixed a typo where I left out a not.

Savings can be considered income because you can withdraw funds on monthly basis. I think you might surprised what some countries will allow to establish a monthly income for an income letter.

OK, that makes more sense.

On your second point, sorry but I totally disagree. If savings could be considered income, then there would be no point for the rules to state that funds has to be in an account in Thailand. Everyone could just claim their home country savings as income and not have to transfer them to Thailand. Other than tax deferred pension savings where the savings are not considered income until they are taken out, there is no definition of the word savings that makes it income. Maybe you are right that there are some embassies that are lax in their interpretation and will include savings (I know mine won't), but you would then have to hope that you are not one of the rare cases where Immigration asks for back-up documentation because I'm sure Immigration would not agree with your point that money in an account in Farang-land counts as income. Savings simply aren't income.

If I were the OP, I would open a Thai bank account and transfer the shortfall between his pension and the combination requirement of THB 800k. That way he can sleep easy at night knowing that he actually qualifies for his extension rather than hoping he gets away with getting an extension he doesn't qualify for. But that is, of course, up to the OP to decide.

Sophon

[2fishin2]

US embassy doesnt care where the money comes from.

[Sophon]

US embassy doesnt care where the money comes from.

Yes, we all know that because they don't actually certify your income they just takes your affidavit. The question is if the OP want to actually qualify for his extension, or if he is just trying to make it look like he does with the (admittedly small) risk that Immigration asks for back-up proof. I don't know how Immigration would react if they found out you had made a sworn affidavit at your embassy claiming to have income you don't actually have, but I am sure that as a minimum you wouldn't get your extension and you might be exposed to closer scrutiny on future extensions.

Sophon

[ubonjoe]

I fixed a typo where I left out a not.

Savings can be considered income because you can withdraw funds on monthly basis. I think you might surprised what some countries will allow to establish a monthly income for an income letter.

OK, that makes more sense.

On your second point, sorry but I totally disagree. If savings could be considered income, then there would be no point for the rules to state that funds has to be in an account in Thailand. Everyone could just claim their home country savings as income and not have to transfer them to Thailand. Other than tax deferred pension savings where the savings are not considered income until they are taken out, there is no definition of the word savings that makes it income. Maybe you are right that there are some embassies that are lax in their interpretation and will include savings (I know mine won't), but you would then have to hope that you are not one of the rare cases where Immigration asks for back-up documentation because I'm sure Immigration would not agree with your point that money in an account in Farang-land counts as income. Savings simply aren't income.

If I were the OP, I would open a Thai bank account and transfer the shortfall between his pension and the combination requirement of THB 800k. That way he can sleep easy at night knowing that he actually qualifies for his extension rather than hoping he gets away with getting an extension he doesn't qualify for. But that is, of course, up to the OP to decide.

Sophon

Just a difference in opinion. There are different types of retirement saving plans in some countries where you put the money in and then it is paid out monthly after your retire..

In reality the 800k baht in a Thai bank should be taken out on a monthly basis to live on or at least that is the intent of that option.

For back up to an income document the best proof is a Thai bank account with transfers coming in on a regular basis.

Not a problem for me because my income is well above the 40k baht requirement I need to show. And my account shows 100% of it coming in minus transfer fees.

[Sophon]

I fixed a typo where I left out a not.

Savings can be considered income because you can withdraw funds on monthly basis. I think you might surprised what some countries will allow to establish a monthly income for an income letter.

OK, that makes more sense.

On your second point, sorry but I totally disagree. If savings could be considered income, then there would be no point for the rules to state that funds has to be in an account in Thailand. Everyone could just claim their home country savings as income and not have to transfer them to Thailand. Other than tax deferred pension savings where the savings are not considered income until they are taken out, there is no definition of the word savings that makes it income. Maybe you are right that there are some embassies that are lax in their interpretation and will include savings (I know mine won't), but you would then have to hope that you are not one of the rare cases where Immigration asks for back-up documentation because I'm sure Immigration would not agree with your point that money in an account in Farang-land counts as income. Savings simply aren't income.

If I were the OP, I would open a Thai bank account and transfer the shortfall between his pension and the combination requirement of THB 800k. That way he can sleep easy at night knowing that he actually qualifies for his extension rather than hoping he gets away with getting an extension he doesn't qualify for. But that is, of course, up to the OP to decide.

Sophon

Just a difference in opinion. There are different types of retirement saving plans in some countries where you put the money in and then it is paid out monthly after your retire..

In reality the 800k baht in a Thai bank should be taken out on a monthly basis to live on or at least that is the intent of that option.

For back up to an income document the best proof is a Thai bank account with transfers coming in on a regular basis.

Not a problem for me because my income is well above the 40k baht requirement I need to show. And my account shows 100% of it coming in minus transfer fees.

As already mentioned, I agree that there are some types of retirement savings that clearly qualify as income or can at least be considered as being in a grey zone: But the OP mentions having his savings in checking and savings accounts, and ordinary savings in normal everyday accounts simply aren't income. When filling out a questionnaire (or the Thai arrival/departure card), do your include your savings in your annual income? When you fill out your tax return, do you include your savings as income for that year? No, because savings simply aren't income and cannot be justified to be.

If you went to Immigration and asked them if your savings in your home country counts as income, what do you think the answer would be (I know what answer my money would be on)? If it's a question of qualifying for a retirement extension, then there is no way that savings can be included as income. On the other hand, if it's a question of (falsely) making it look like you qualify, then for some it would be possible to include savings. But you take the risk (however big or small) of being found out.

I just want the OP to understand, that as the rules are he doesn't presently qualify for his extension. Then it's up to him to decide what to do about it.

Sophon

[JDGRUEN]

To: Sophon ... Your concern is misplaced and your tone of accusation that I do not meet financial requirements and I am trying to fool Thai Immigration is uncalled for. I have more than enough funds to meet the equivalent of 800,000 THB annually. Your are basing your unnecessary accusations only on your opinion of the rules... Ubonjoe and others here offer a different opinion. I trust their opinion as your opinion is done with tacky remarks and is in the minority.

I will be signing the Embassy Letter/Affidavit with full truthfulness - done it good faith.

Please go find someone else to insult.

[NeverSure]

As already mentioned, I agree that there are some types of retirement savings that clearly qualify as income or can at least be considered as being in a grey zone: But the OP mentions having his savings in checking and savings accounts, and ordinary savings in normal everyday accounts simply aren't income. When filling out a questionnaire (or the Thai arrival/departure card), do your include your savings in your annual income? When you fill out your tax return, do you include your savings as income for that year? No, because savings simply aren't income and cannot be justified to be.

If you went to Immigration and asked them if your savings in your home country counts as income, what do you think the answer would be (I know what answer my money would be on)? If it's a question of qualifying for a retirement extension, then there is no way that savings can be included as income. On the other hand, if it's a question of (falsely) making it look like you qualify, then for some it would be possible to include savings. But you take the risk (however big or small) of being found out.

I just want the OP to understand, that as the rules are he doesn't presently qualify for his extension. Then it's up to him to decide what to do about it.

Sophon

"On the other hand, if it's a question of (falsely) making it look like you qualify, then for some it would be possible to include savings. But you take the risk (however big or small) of being found out."

With all due respect, that's a pretty direct insult for something when I don't think you understand what he's saying.

Cheers

[Sophon]

To: Sophon ... Your concern is misplaced and your tone of accusation that I do not meet financial requirements and I am trying to fool Thai Immigration is uncalled for. I have more than enough funds to meet the equivalent of 800,000 THB annually. Your are basing your unnecessary accusations only on your opinion of the rules... Ubonjoe and others here offer a different opinion. I trust their opinion as your opinion is done with tacky remarks and is in the minority.

I will be signing the Embassy Letter/Affidavit with full truthfulness - done it good faith.

Please go find someone else to insult.

In no way do I believe that you are trying to fool Immigration, nor did I anywhere accuse you of doing so. I was afraid that you believed that savings in a U.S. bank would qualify you for the extension, and wanted to point out that they won't so that you don't show up at Immigration unprepared.

The rules are quite clear and there are really no room for interpretation, if your income is not enough to qualify on it's own, you can use bank deposit in a bank in Thailand to make up the shortfall, but you can't use bank deposit in a bank outside Thailand. You have to realize that as the rules are, it's not a question of you having 800,000 Baht to live on annually, your combination of income and bank deposits just has to meet the requirements when you apply for the extension but you can use the same funds in your bank year after year. You can even park 800,000 Baht in a Thai bank account and just leave it there untouched to qualify for your annual extensions. But when using savings to qualify the funds has to be in a bank in Thailand.

As I said, up to you to decide what you want to do.

Sophon

[Sophon]

As already mentioned, I agree that there are some types of retirement savings that clearly qualify as income or can at least be considered as being in a grey zone: But the OP mentions having his savings in checking and savings accounts, and ordinary savings in normal everyday accounts simply aren't income. When filling out a questionnaire (or the Thai arrival/departure card), do your include your savings in your annual income? When you fill out your tax return, do you include your savings as income for that year? No, because savings simply aren't income and cannot be justified to be.

If you went to Immigration and asked them if your savings in your home country counts as income, what do you think the answer would be (I know what answer my money would be on)? If it's a question of qualifying for a retirement extension, then there is no way that savings can be included as income. On the other hand, if it's a question of (falsely) making it look like you qualify, then for some it would be possible to include savings. But you take the risk (however big or small) of being found out.

I just want the OP to understand, that as the rules are he doesn't presently qualify for his extension. Then it's up to him to decide what to do about it.

Sophon

"On the other hand, if it's a question of (falsely) making it look like you qualify, then for some it would be possible to include savings. But you take the risk (however big or small) of being found out."

With all due respect, that's a pretty direct insult for something when I don't think you understand what he's saying.

Cheers

The discussion between me and UbonJoe is about what the rules say and allow about using savings and not directed at the OP (although based on his general situation). If you read my posts you will note that I refer to general situations rather than the OP, but if it somehow comes across as I trying to accuse or offend the OP, then that was unintended and I apologize for that. My aim was to point out that in order for savings to be used, the rules say that they have to be in an account in a bank in Thailand.

To me the rules are quite clear, savings outside Thailand can never be used to qualify for a retirement extension. You either qualify based on your income, or if your income is insufficient then you will have to have funds in an account in Thailand. Savings outside Thailand are not income, and to be used to qualify they (or part of them) will have to be transferred to Thailand.

Sophon

[mojaco]

Sophon is correct in what the rules clearly require.

[Sophon]

I seem to have ruffled some feathers here which was never my intention, so if I have offended someone I apologize for that. I never meant to imply that the OP would do something unethical or illegal, nor would I have a reason to think so as he just asked for advice and didn't really specify what further actions he would take before going to Immigration.

The main reason I posted in the first case was because of this advice offered by UbonJoe:

Immigration will accept a combination of income with money in the bank outside the country.

So I was afraid that the OP (or someone else reading the post) would show up at Immigration with Embassy letter for his income and expect to be able to make up the shortfall with account statements from a bank outside Thailand. It turned out to be a simple typo from UbonJoe leaving out a "not", and he corrected his post after reading mine.

As to the question about whether savings qualify as income, I really don't think I am in the minority to believe that they absolutely don't. But I am not going to start a poll to determine that, everyone can make up their own minds and in the end all that really matters is what Immigration believes.

I think I will finish by quoting the actual rules we are talking about, then people can decide for themselves what to believe and do:

Edit: Screen shot of police order clause


Again, I apologize to anyone that I have unintentionally offended.

Sophon

[ubonjoe]

This is what clause 2.22 of Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay states.for income.

"3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or"

It does not define income which leaves ti open to what can be defined as income.

[Sophon]

This is what clause 2.22 of Immigration Bureau Order 138/2557 documents for extension of stay states.for income.

"3. Evidence of income such as a retirement pension, interest or dividends; and/or"

It does not define income which leaves ti open to what can be defined as income.

True, but words have definitions so there are limits to what can be included. I think it would be hard to find a definition of the word "income" anywhere that includes savings.

But as said, the only definition that counts in this case is that of Immigration.

Sophon

[JDGRUEN]

Thanks for the informative information and opinion on my request for assistance here with specific thanks to those who have done so with civility.

I have a plan now and will proceed. I will do what thousands of others have done and make use of the Embassy Letter/Affidavit. The wording, provisions and implications of that affidavit, in lieu of bank documents, have been accepted by Thai Immigration many thousands of times with applicants attesting to receiving funds 'every month from the United States Government and/or other sources'... and has been generally deemed sufficient. I will execute this document in full truthfulness and in good faith.

http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/income_affidavit_retirees.pdf

And - Admins please close this thread with my last post as my questions have been answered, Thank you.

[ubonjoe]

Closed at OP's request.