Advice getting started on a family house

[kitjohnson]

I'm looking to build a 3-bedroom house with my wife just outside Bangkok. Our budget at the moment is about 2.5 million but we could bump that up to 3.5 million.

I want to make it as ecological as possible. From what I've seen so far when speaking to a few contractors, architects, and companies, the market here doesn't seem overly concerned with reducing electricity bills through ecological design. I guess that will happen in time. By 'eco design' I mean:

* thought paid to the surrounding environment to make best use of sun, wind, and trees
* money invested in good insulation where that would help keep the house cool
* good airflow throughout the house
* a roof that keeps the house as cool as possible
* modern style and conveniences. We're not going to live in an earthen hut :-)

I'd like to get started building soon, and I'm not sure of the best way forward. I have zero experience in this area. If anyone can recommend any of the following I'd be really grateful:

* architects, contractors, or construction companies who are experienced in ecological house design, preferably with a track record of doing a thorough job and not cutting corners
* books on eco house design specifically for tropical climates like we have in Bangkok
* anything else to help get this project started

I really am grateful for any help that anyone can give, as so far, with the people I've spoken to, I haven't found any promising leads for an ecologically-designed and built home.

(I have searched this topic already on this site but most of what I found wasn't exactly what I'm asking here.)

[cooked]

I have seen books in Asia books that might help. The Aussies and the Americans around Florida have experience in this field. Architects? Good luck.

[wayned]

Where is "just outside of Bangkok"?

[rgs2001uk]

Best of luck with that one.

How "eco friendly" is your wife?

Reason for asking, Thai folklore and old wives tales may well hinder your design.

Airflow through the house, sorry cant have that the money might blow out the house, cant have bedroom in that side of the house, bed cant be facing that direction, etc etc.

How much land do you have to build on?

As noted by another poster, head off to Asia books or Se Ed bookstore, they have plenty of design books available.

Check out a website, coolthaihouse.com.

As for getting started soon, take your time and do your research, the land will still be there next year wont it, whats the rush?

[IMHO]

One of the first things you will want to understand is the sun angle throughout the year, which is critical when positioning and designing the house, and the landscaping.

Here's the summer solstice: http://suncalc.net/#/13.7954,100.5029,8/2015.06.21/12:00

And the winter solstice: http://suncalc.net/#/13.7954,100.5029,8/2015.12.22/12:00

If you play around with the dates, you will see that from March to September (the equinoxes) the sun is mostly overhead, or a little to the North - meaning that the biggest issues are the East (sunrise) and West (sunset) sides of the house. From September to March, the sun comes from a very pronounced Southerly direction, and by the December solstice it really does have some angle to it - so much so that things like roof overhangs become completely ineffective against the afternoon sun.

[JaiLai]

One of the first things you will want to understand is the sun angle throughout the year, which is critical when positioning and designing the house, and the landscaping.

Here's the summer solstice: http://suncalc.net/#/13.7954,100.5029,8/2015.06.21/12:00

And the winter solstice: http://suncalc.net/#/13.7954,100.5029,8/2015.12.22/12:00

If you play around with the dates, you will see that from March to September (the equinoxes) the sun is mostly overhead, or a little to the North - meaning that the biggest issues are the East (sunrise) and West (sunset) sides of the house. From September to March, the sun comes from a very pronounced Southerly direction, and by the December solstice it really does have some angle to it - so much so that things like roof overhangs become completely ineffective against the afternoon sun.

stratecially positioned trees work well for shade around the house.

[kitjohnson]

I'm grateful for all the replies.

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

I agree that it's probably good to take it slowly. We're keen to get started, but better to be patient now and get it right than have major headaches later.

I've spent a fair bit of time in bookshops already, but haven't seen many books that are dedicated to eco designs for houses in humid tropical climates. I'll keep looking.

Thanks so much for the info on sun angles. That was actually a question I had in the back of my mind. So if I understand it correctly, we should take care that the southern side is prepared to receive sun from September to March, and that during the rest of the year we should think about how to prepare for the morning and evening sun (from the East and West).

[IMHO]

I'm grateful for all the replies.

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

I agree that it's probably good to take it slowly. We're keen to get started, but better to be patient now and get it right than have major headaches later.

I've spent a fair bit of time in bookshops already, but haven't seen many books that are dedicated to eco designs for houses in humid tropical climates. I'll keep looking.

Thanks so much for the info on sun angles. That was actually a question I had in the back of my mind. So if I understand it correctly, we should take care that the southern side is prepared to receive sun from September to March, and that during the rest of the year we should think about how to prepare for the morning and evening sun (from the East and West).

Right, it's the very first thing you need to understand, because once you've put the first post in the ground, it's hard to change course

The biggest problem is the West side - all year around it's going to get hammered by the afternoon sun. Next is the South side, because it's going to get hammered for half the year. The East side will of course get morning sunlight, but it's less of an impact than West and South, because it's generally cooler in the morning anyway - it might still pay to minimize glass area on that side though. The North side usually doesn't need any special considerations, unless it's two or more stories - in single story, a 1.0-1.5M roof overhang will keep most of the North sun out.

The next thing to think about is positioning the house on the plot so you are going to be able to plant trees strategically too. Insulation is good, but shade is always better

[kitjohnson]

The biggest problem is the West side - all year around it's going to get hammered by the afternoon sun. Next is the South side, because it's going to get hammered for half the year. The East side will of course get morning sunlight, but it's less of an impact than West and South, because it's generally cooler in the morning anyway - it might still pay to minimize glass area on that side though. The North side usually doesn't need any special considerations, unless it's two or more stories - in single story, a 1.0-1.5M roof overhang will keep most of the North sun out.

The next thing to think about is positioning the house on the plot so you are going to be able to plant trees strategically too. Insulation is good, but shade is always better

That's exactly the kind of advice I was hoping for. Thank you!

Since the land is spacious and we love trees, we can think about creating as much shade as possible with trees on the west and south sides, and controlling the amount of glass we put on those sides too.

Another question I've got (since you mentioned stories), is what impact does number of stories make? Most family houses I've been to in Thailand are two-storey, and the second story is horribly uncomfortable without aircon. My guess is that the heat from the ground floor rises, and the sun beats on the roof, and so it becomes an oven up there. Could that be alleviated through more efficient (cooling) roof design?

But if we went with single-storey, we would still have the issue of a hot sun on the roof all day.

I expect that single storey would be more expensive, because the total roof area would be much larger, plus lots more foundations to lay.

[IMHO]

There are a number of pros and cons when talking 1 vs 2 storey:

One Story Pros:

* Roof overhangs are able to shade more total wall area

* Construction cost is considerably cheaper

* Easier to create shade for the whole house with trees

Two Storey Pros:

* Downstairs is generally cooler, because nothing really beats the double-insulation of a concrete floor and a roof above.

* Wind flow - the second floor generally gets much more of it, with less trees, garden, fences etc to block it. That's only beneficial when wind temps are low enough to help with cooling though

Two Storey Cons:

* More direct sunlight hits the ground floor walls and windows, because the roof overhangs are so high up - can be mitigated with 'skirt' roof sections.

* Heat rises - which means the second floor is generally hotter than what a single storey house would be - that can be mitigated as well though. We have now built a few houses where the staircase ends adjacent to an upstairs terrace area - so the hot air just flows right out of a screen door. In those houses, the staircase is usually the coolest room in the whole house, and the other rooms upstairs or no hotter than what a single storey house would be.

* Construction costs per sqm are about 10-20% more than single storey.

The basic concepts of a cool house are pretty simple:

1) Use shade as much as possible - blocking/limiting direct sunlight is the single most effective weapon you have. Trees, roof overhangs, even solar panels and solar hot water systems help.

2) What you can't shade, reflect - e.g. using foil under roof tiles and Solartag reflective glass.

3) What you can't reflect, insulate - e.g. using double brick cavity walls, exterior wall claddings, double glazing, ceiling batts/insulted gypsum (Thermaline)

4) Design your house so it's able to take advantage of prevailing winds (which flip direction for half the year) so you can ventilate when it's cool out, but stop that ventilation as air temps rise.

Edited February 6, 2015 by IMHO

[IMHO]

I expect that single storey would be more expensive, because the total roof area would be much larger, plus lots more foundations to lay.

Not so, actually...All the extra formwork, steel, concrete and time required for the framing, floor and staircase in 2-storey actually makes it more expensive per sqm.

Edited February 6, 2015 by IMHO

[IMHO]

There are a number of pros and cons when talking 1 vs 2 storey:

One Story Pros:

* Roof overhangs are able to shade more total wall area

* Construction cost is considerably cheaper

* Easier to create shade for the whole house with trees

Two Storey Pros:

* Downstairs is generally cooler, because nothing really beats the double-insulation of a concrete floor and a roof above.

* Wind flow - the second floor generally gets much more of it, with less trees, garden, fences etc to block it. That's only beneficial when wind temps are low enough to help with cooling though

Two Storey Cons:

* More direct sunlight hits the ground floor walls and windows, because the roof overhangs are so high up - can be mitigated with 'skirt' roof sections.

* Heat rises - which means the second floor is generally hotter than what a single storey house would be - that can be mitigated as well though. We have now built a few houses where the staircase ends adjacent to an upstairs terrace area - so the hot air just flows right out of a screen door. In those houses, the staircase is usually the coolest room in the whole house, and the other rooms upstairs or no hotter than what a single storey house would be.

* Construction costs per sqm are about 10-20% more than single storey.

The basic concepts of a cool house are pretty simple:

1) Use shade as much as possible - blocking/limiting direct sunlight is the single most effective weapon you have. Trees, roof overhangs, even solar panels and solar hot water systems help.

2) What you can't shade, reflect - e.g. using foil under roof tiles and Solartag reflective glass.

3) What you can't reflect, insulate - e.g. using double brick cavity walls, exterior wall claddings, double glazing, ceiling batts/insulted gypsum (Thermaline)

4) Design your house so it's able to take advantage of prevailing winds (which flip direction for half the year) so you can ventilate when it's cool out, but stop that ventilation as air temps rise.

oh and,

5) Bricks block heat way more effectively than glass and wood - so minimize window and door areas on hot sides of the house.

[rgs2001uk]

I'm grateful for all the replies.

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

I agree that it's probably good to take it slowly. We're keen to get started, but better to be patient now and get it right than have major headaches later.

I've spent a fair bit of time in bookshops already, but haven't seen many books that are dedicated to eco designs for houses in humid tropical climates. I'll keep looking.

Thanks so much for the info on sun angles. That was actually a question I had in the back of my mind. So if I understand it correctly, we should take care that the southern side is prepared to receive sun from September to March, and that during the rest of the year we should think about how to prepare for the morning and evening sun (from the East and West).

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

Sounds as if you have about 1 rai of land.

I know the area, its up by Rangsit/LamLukKa, you are correct about it being basically paddy fields.

One area of concern you havent mentioned is drainage/flooding, that area was hit pretty bad back in 2011.

I dont know the elevation of your land, but I rai is a heck of a lot to raise, I would consider having the house elevated by at least 1 meter.

I dont know if you have included piling in your budget, depending on design, you can easily add at least another 200k++ baht to the cost.

[kannot]

Build using q con blocks and a metal insulated colorbond white roof with well vented roof space, you will not get temps lower than ambient no matter what any smart arse tells you, with good insulation you can open doors windows at 6.30 am trap the cool morning air but good sealing up of the house is essential to keep that air in.

banana plants grow fast and will shade you well in 12 months.

Build on the ground its cooler than the air on a raise d house as long as any surrounding path of concrete does not touch the house base.

Edited February 8, 2015 by kannot

[zlodnick]

Mahogany trees! You can buy a 3 meter tall tree for about 500 Bht.

They look good, provide lots of shade, and grow fairly fast.

If you have rain gutters, keep them at least 1o meters from thehouse.

[kitjohnson]

I just want to say thank you to all the help. I really am a beginner to this type of thing, and your comments have really helped me get a feel for what I should be looking for.

There are a number of pros and cons when talking 1 vs 2 storey:

One Story Pros:

* Roof overhangs are able to shade more total wall area

* Construction cost is considerably cheaper

* Easier to create shade for the whole house with trees

Two Storey Pros:

* Downstairs is generally cooler, because nothing really beats the double-insulation of a concrete floor and a roof above.

* Wind flow - the second floor generally gets much more of it, with less trees, garden, fences etc to block it. That's only beneficial when wind temps are low enough to help with cooling though

Two Storey Cons:

* More direct sunlight hits the ground floor walls and windows, because the roof overhangs are so high up - can be mitigated with 'skirt' roof sections.

* Heat rises - which means the second floor is generally hotter than what a single storey house would be - that can be mitigated as well though. We have now built a few houses where the staircase ends adjacent to an upstairs terrace area - so the hot air just flows right out of a screen door. In those houses, the staircase is usually the coolest room in the whole house, and the other rooms upstairs or no hotter than what a single storey house would be.

* Construction costs per sqm are about 10-20% more than single storey.

The basic concepts of a cool house are pretty simple:

1) Use shade as much as possible - blocking/limiting direct sunlight is the single most effective weapon you have. Trees, roof overhangs, even solar panels and solar hot water systems help.

2) What you can't shade, reflect - e.g. using foil under roof tiles and Solartag reflective glass.

3) What you can't reflect, insulate - e.g. using double brick cavity walls, exterior wall claddings, double glazing, ceiling batts/insulted gypsum (Thermaline)

4) Design your house so it's able to take advantage of prevailing winds (which flip direction for half the year) so you can ventilate when it's cool out, but stop that ventilation as air temps rise.

This is awesome advice. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly. Especially the 'basic concepts' bit.

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

Sounds as if you have about 1 rai of land.

I know the area, its up by Rangsit/LamLukKa, you are correct about it being basically paddy fields.

One area of concern you havent mentioned is drainage/flooding, that area was hit pretty bad back in 2011.

I dont know the elevation of your land, but I rai is a heck of a lot to raise, I would consider having the house elevated by at least 1 meter.

I dont know if you have included piling in your budget, depending on design, you can easily add at least another 200k++ baht to the cost.

Yep, it was hit badly by the floods. A meter or so of water for months. Horrible. The mother-in-law has raised about half the land already (the patch we want to build on), about 75cm I think (I need to measure it). I suppose one advantage of a two-storey house is that even if flooded, at least you have someone dry to escape to.

I just found out what piling is. If I understand correctly, any house build in the Bangkok area would need that, so yes it'll be budgeted for.

Build using q con blocks and a metal insulated colorbond white roof with well vented roof space, you will not get temps lower than ambient no matter what any smart arse tells you, with good insulation you can open doors windows at 6.30 am trap the cool morning air but good sealing up of the house is essential to keep that air in.

banana plants grow fast and will shade you well in 12 months.

Build on the ground its cooler than the air on a raise d house as long as any surrounding path of concrete does not touch the house base.

What I'm planning is the ability to seal the house and insulate (for when we want to use air conditioners) as well as have the ability to open up windows and doors to let the air flow through and circulate through the house, when it's cool enough.

Mahogany trees! You can buy a 3 meter tall tree for about 500 Bht.

They look good, provide lots of shade, and grow fairly fast.

If you have rain gutters, keep them at least 1o meters from thehouse.

Mahogany, thanks for the tip. They do look good and for a three meter tall tree that sounds like a bargain.

At the moment we're working on a provisional design with a housing construction company (Built to Build group). I've got some ideas for where to put the land on the plot, and where to put trees. I'll post that here when it's ready.

Once again, thanks everyone for this advice.

[canman]

Have you considered a Thai style house raised a couple meters on piles? I lived in one in Pattaya and it was very comfortable. The raised design gets you above the floods and also gives you a large shaded area underneath which can be used for bbq's etc. The raised design also gets you somewhat above the mosquitoes. A wooden floor will also hold less heat then a concrete pad and cool quicker at night.

[kitjohnson]

Have you considered a Thai style house raised a couple meters on piles? I lived in one in Pattaya and it was very comfortable. The raised design gets you above the floods and also gives you a large shaded area underneath which can be used for bbq's etc. The raised design also gets you somewhat above the mosquitoes. A wooden floor will also hold less heat then a concrete pad and cool quicker at night.

Yes, we definitely considered that. I'm still open to the idea. Most of the houses in the surrounding area are raised either a few inches or a couple of metres off the ground. You've spelled out some of the advantages there. Are there many disadvantages - other than the inconvenience of having to walk up stairs every time you move in/out of the house? That's fine when you're young and healthy, but when we get older, it could make life difficult.

[brianmarinus]

The largest concern about the heat here is actually Not the heat but the humidity-get that down and you will not feel the heat so much.

[MaeJoMTB]

This guy might be able to help.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/811115-wife-wants-to-divorce-two-kids/

[eddie61]

Agree with advice on sun angles etc.

There are some good programs available that allow you to walk through your plans and predict sun angles and shadows at any time of the year.

I would start from there: only other advice is that you make a contract wherein you buy and pay for all materials directly, and watch the bodgers every minute of the day, particularly, be there the day they pour the footings, I repeat........ BE THERE THE DAY THEY POUR THE FOOTINGS!

Also, check water pipes if under floor: I mean challenge the bodgers and the head bodger if not convinced

BTW

Bodgers repairing cracks due to subsidence as we speak, because I wasn't there to inspect the footings 8 years ago...

[oneday]

We just finished building our house. The best advice I can give, if I get this right that your main concern is ecological, is to insulate as you mentioned. It is common to insulate the roof. They do sell insulation here so no problem there. However, normal construction is with Q-Con block for your walls and with a single block wall there is no way to insulate. We built our house with double Q-Con block. Columns are 20 x 20cm normally so a 7.5 wide block, a 5cm air gap (which I saw no reason to insulate) and another 7.5 block will make your walls look and feel 20cm thick. We love our walls. This will go a long way to insulating for sound and temperature. We did not bother with double walls inside...that's overkill IMO.

One thing Thais do not do well is understand about allowing roofs to breath. Make sure your roof has at least two vented gable ends with slotted soffits so air can enter through the soffits and exit through the gables. You should have soffits no matter what, but in lieu of gable ends make sure you have a ridge vent. They do make these here. And always vent as high up inside the attic as far as possible since we all know hot air raises. It you can get a whole house fan installed (these are fairly big) in a ceiling somewhere that would be good. In the evening when the sun sets you can turn the fan on and replace all the hot air in the house with the cooler outside air in a couple of minutes. CAUTION: DO NOT forget to open doors and windows. These fans can move a lot of air; you don't want to create a vacuum.

One other huge piece of advice I'd give you is about finding a builder. You could try what we did. Go to several local building material supply stores (not your Home Pro or Thai Watsadu), but your more local Mom and Pop operations and ask if they know a builder who they would want to build their house. That is how we found our builder and he was phenomenal and after being fully paid he is still great.

Good luck.

[Muhendis]

Word of caution about the trees. Although it's not been mentioned, if you're going for wind and/or solar power, trees will be a bit of a nuisance. They will need regular pruning etc.

With regard to wall construction, I went for cavity walls with polystyrene insulation which makes a big saving on air conditioner running costs.

[SOUTHERNSTAR]

I would do the following:

Step 1 find out how high was the 2011 flood in the area.

Step 2 fill the land 1 meter higher than what the 2011 flood was - compact the soil as its filled in - if not you should wait atleast a year for the soil to settle.

Step 3 design a house thats lifted 1 or 2 meter from the ground. This makes termite control and plumbing maintenance easier, lessen damp problems and will protect the house against extreme floods.

Step 4 design the house with wide verandas which will keep the sun from the inside walls.

Step 5 use concertina type sliding doors. These doors open wider than normal sliding doors which increase airflow.

Step 6 design the house with higher ceilings and insulate the ceilings.

Step 7 plant trees on the western and southern side of the house. You must however remember that the more trees you have the less the airflow will be. You must thus choose trees that will grow in such a way that they will provide shade without decreasing airflow - tall tree trunks with umbrella type canopy.

Thicker insulated walls drecrease temp inside the house. Flowing water around the house makes it cooler.

[whiteman]

Have you considered a Thai style house raised a couple meters on piles? I lived in one in Pattaya and it was very comfortable. The raised design gets you above the floods and also gives you a large shaded area underneath which can be used for bbq's etc. The raised design also gets you somewhat above the mosquitoes. A wooden floor will also hold less heat then a concrete pad and cool quicker at night.

Yes, we definitely considered that. I'm still open to the idea. Most of the houses in the surrounding area are raised either a few inches or a couple of metres off the ground. You've spelled out some of the advantages there. Are there many disadvantages - other than the inconvenience of having to walk up stairs every time you move in/out of the house? That's fine when you're young and healthy, but when we get older, it could make life difficult.

When you build the house just ask the builder where would be a good place to place a wheel chair ramp so that you would get easy assess to the house when one gets much older. Make sure there is room later for it to be built and that the end of the place where the ramp would finish would either go into a door entrance or onto a deck and then into a entrance doorway.

[oxo1947]

The Cool Thai house blog / Book started about 10 years ago & is still running although it deals more with building problems than the Eco aspect http://www.coolthaihouse.com/

why don't you do a blog also, as it progresses you will get running advice as well as helping other people.

There are some green blogs around re Thailand...building house from mud etc....just Google https://naturalbuild.wordpress.com/category/thailand/

Very best of luck in the venture , hope you have a real laid back attitude in life----I feel you may need it.

[ChangMaiSausage]

Have you considered a Thai style house raised a couple meters on piles? I lived in one in Pattaya and it was very comfortable. The raised design gets you above the floods and also gives you a large shaded area underneath which can be used for bbq's etc. The raised design also gets you somewhat above the mosquitoes. A wooden floor will also hold less heat then a concrete pad and cool quicker at night.

Yes, we definitely considered that. I'm still open to the idea. Most of the houses in the surrounding area are raised either a few inches or a couple of metres off the ground. You've spelled out some of the advantages there. Are there many disadvantages - other than the inconvenience of having to walk up stairs every time you move in/out of the house? That's fine when you're young and healthy, but when we get older, it could make life difficult.

When you build the house just ask the builder where would be a good place to place a wheel chair ramp so that you would get easy assess to the house when one gets much older. Make sure there is room later for it to be built and that the end of the place where the ramp would finish would either go into a door entrance or onto a deck and then into a entrance doorway.

Or do as we have done, we have a guest double room downstairs that I have already penciled in as my bedroom when I'm unable to climb stairs or just too drunk

[sometimewoodworker]

http://www.coolthaihouse.com/forum/index.php Is dedicated to building here.

[gandalf12]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

I'm grateful for all the replies.

The land is in Sai Mai. It's pretty open - rice paddies surrounding it at the moment. There's quite a lot of land: 1,500 square metres.

I agree that it's probably good to take it slowly. We're keen to get started, but better to be patient now and get it right than have major headaches later.

I've spent a fair bit of time in bookshops already, but haven't seen many books that are dedicated to eco designs for houses in humid tropical climates. I'll keep looking.

Thanks so much for the info on sun angles. That was actually a question I had in the back of my mind. So if I understand it correctly, we should take care that the southern side is prepared to receive sun from September to March, and that during the rest of the year we should think about how to prepare for the morning and evening sun (from the East and West).

Nice area, I know I live there. Hold out for what you want and you will get it. Getting it designed wont be a real problem but you will have to guide the designer (Architect) through your ideas. When it is being built make sure you check on what it happening as often as possible or they will do things the way Thais accept them

[recycler]

Be careful with trees overhanging the house, they do not only bring shade, but also animals that will populate your attic and eventually come down in your house.