UK anti-Semitic incidents hit record in 2014, says charity

[sdanielmcev]

The only irrational thinking here is when you take a single sentence and state it is the only evidence, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, JT. It is just another example of co-opting a term to suit your purpose. Why not say what it actually is?

Anti-Judaism.

That word wouldn't work well.

Judaism is a religion.

I am a Jew and do not practice Judaism but still a target of Jew haters (antisemites).

I am not a Judaism.

Do you get the difference?

Some antisemities do focus more on the Jewish religious dogma but anti-Judaism would be too limiting as it would leave out hostility towards Jewish PEOPLE.

We are not dictionary writers here.

This is an English language forum and words have meanings.

You are pissing against the wind with the endless objection to the established meaning of antisemitism.

A better phrase to shut up the relentless kvetching of people like you not accepting the established definition of antisemitism might be Jew hating or some have proposed and are even using Judeophobia.

But for whatever historical reason, the ESTABLISHED word and definition for hatred of Jews remains antisemitism.

You are welcome to lobby the dictionary writers but the endless obsession about this here is tedious and the hostile motives are obvious.

There isn't a big problem with using Judeophobia except so few people use it that it is poor communication when a widely used term antisemitism is widely understood.

If you want to say Jew hating or Judeophobia. that seems perfectly OK.

I sometimes do proactively write antisemitism (hatred against Jews) just because I know the same annoying and disingenuous objections to the established meaning come up again and again.

Why do you think this is worthy of bringing up for the 100th time?!?

Cheers, dude.

Please note:

I would like to propose that Thaivisa.com establish a new rule against objecting to the established definition of the word antisemitism.

This has been brought up countless times and each time the objections have been without any merit and when someone bothers, soundly rebutted.

Why waste any future bandwidth on this SETTLED ISSUE?!?

Because the 'issue" hasn't been settled. As you say, words have meaning. Okay, so what about the majority of semites that are not jewish? You don't see how your argument falls flat there. And, I am not being disingenuous when any group is excluded from a discussion to your comfort. Also, anti-Semitism is a popular definition, not established, except in the minds of those that pervert the language to their argument.

[Jingthing]

Why would you assume people don't know (or suspect) I am a Jew? Besides that, none of your business. This topic isn't about my personal experiences.

Then why did you bring them into it?

"I am a Jew and do not practice Judaism but still a target of Jew haters (antisemites). "

That one sentence out of context distorts the meaning. I'm assuming that was a deliberate game you're playing, That is not cool

Others, the meaning of my thoughts explaining that Judaism is a religion and Jews are people is in the post above. No point in any further comment on the matter in response to a deliberately distorted loaded question.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Jingthing

[Credo]

It doesn't seem to be a very good time for anybody who has roots in the ME, be they ethnic or religious.

[TooPoopedToPop]

It doesn't seem to be a very good time for anybody who has roots in the ME, be they ethnic or religious.

Quite true... and the reason is because the whole region is descending into barbarity.

Look at what is happening - from the Gaza Massacre to the hideous executions carried out by the Islamic State.

[Ulysses G.]

All caused by radical Islam.

[Chicog]

The only irrational thinking here is when you take a single sentence and state it is the only evidence, in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, JT. It is just another example of co-opting a term to suit your purpose. Why not say what it actually is?

Anti-Judaism.

Or perhaps anti-Israeli - most people who indulge in racist abuse are generally pretty clueless. They probably don't even realise there are Israeli Arabs and Palestinian Christians.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Chicog

[Jingthing]

Anti-Israelism is a specific thing.

Anti-semitism (hatred towards Jews) is ancient and has existed for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel.

Anti-Israelism does not REPLACE anti-semitism.

Of course many people express BOTH anti-semitism AND anti-Israelism.

http://jcpa.org/article/anti-israelism-and-anti-semitism-common-characteristics-and-motifs/

Anti-Israelism

The late-twentieth and early-twenty-first-century explosion of anti-Israelism, a hate phenomenon that had existed for decades at much lower levels, caught the Jewish world and Israel by surprise. Certain authors, however, had already described several aspects of the anti-Zionist permutation of anti-Semitism.

In 1979, in the original French version of his book The Anti-Zionist Complex, Jacques Givet wrote: “The anti-Zionist becomes an overt anti-Semite as soon as he goes beyond criticism of the policies of the Jerusalem government (a favorite activity of the Israelis themselves) and challenges the very existence of the State of Israel.”

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jingthing

[Chicog]

Anti-Israelism is a specific thing.

Anti-semitism (hatred towards Jews) is ancient and has existed for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel.

Anti-Israelism does not REPLACE anti-semitism.

Of course many people express BOTH anti-semitism AND anti-Israelism.

http://jcpa.org/article/anti-israelism-and-anti-semitism-common-characteristics-and-motifs/

Anti-Israelism

The late-twentieth and early-twenty-first-century explosion of anti-Israelism, a hate phenomenon that had existed for decades at much lower levels, caught the Jewish world and Israel by surprise. Certain authors, however, had already described several aspects of the anti-Zionist permutation of anti-Semitism.

In 1979, in the original French version of his book The Anti-Zionist Complex, Jacques Givet wrote: “The anti-Zionist becomes an overt anti-Semite as soon as he goes beyond criticism of the policies of the Jerusalem government (a favorite activity of the Israelis themselves) and challenges the very existence of the State of Israel.”

Yes, I am aware of that.

I was merely pointing out that most people that use these terms are usually dragging their knuckles along the ground and wouldn't know the difference between a semite, a Jew and an Israeli if one sat on their face.

[Scott]

Previously removed posts have been reinstated. Please proceed with caution and be civil.

This topic is about anti-Semitic incidents in the UK.

[Chicog]

Why would you assume people don't know (or suspect) I am a Jew? Besides that, none of your business. This topic isn't about my personal experiences.

Then why did you bring them into it?

"I am a Jew and do not practice Judaism but still a target of Jew haters (antisemites). "

That one sentence out of context distorts the meaning. I'm assuming that was a deliberate game you're playing, That is not cool

Others, the meaning of my thoughts explaining that Judaism is a religion and Jews are people is in the post above. No point in any further comment on the matter in response to a deliberately distorted loaded question.

Please don't be so defensive, I am not criticising you but asking a simple question.

The topic of this thread is "Anti-semitic incidents", and it would appear you are claiming to have been on the receiving end.

I was simply asking why, given that you said yourself that you do not practise Judaism.

[Seastallion]

Anti-Israelism is a specific thing.

Anti-semitism (hatred towards Jews) is ancient and has existed for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel.

Anti-Israelism does not REPLACE anti-semitism.

Of course many people express BOTH anti-semitism AND anti-Israelism.

http://jcpa.org/article/anti-israelism-and-anti-semitism-common-characteristics-and-motifs/

Anti-Israelism

The late-twentieth and early-twenty-first-century explosion of anti-Israelism, a hate phenomenon that had existed for decades at much lower levels, caught the Jewish world and Israel by surprise. Certain authors, however, had already described several aspects of the anti-Zionist permutation of anti-Semitism.

In 1979, in the original French version of his book The Anti-Zionist Complex, Jacques Givet wrote: “The anti-Zionist becomes an overt anti-Semite as soon as he goes beyond criticism of the policies of the Jerusalem government (a favorite activity of the Israelis themselves) and challenges the very existence of the State of Israel.”

There you have it JT, from your own source.....anti-Zionist is NOT antisemite until it manifests as antisemitism. Most, if not all anti-Israel/anti-Zionist members here are not antisemite as you continually allege. It is your persistent allegations of antisemitism here that drive people to question the over-use of the word.

As in the UK, it appears that the antisemitism accusation is made at the drop of a hat; "Down with Israel" will be labelled antisemitism, and I'm sure that many of the reports of antisemitism in the OP are just that; anti-Israel sentiments that are construed as antisemitism.

[Morch]

Anti-Israelism is a specific thing.

Anti-semitism (hatred towards Jews) is ancient and has existed for thousands of years before the establishment of Israel.

Anti-Israelism does not REPLACE anti-semitism.

Of course many people express BOTH anti-semitism AND anti-Israelism.

http://jcpa.org/article/anti-israelism-and-anti-semitism-common-characteristics-and-motifs/

Anti-Israelism

The late-twentieth and early-twenty-first-century explosion of anti-Israelism, a hate phenomenon that had existed for decades at much lower levels, caught the Jewish world and Israel by surprise. Certain authors, however, had already described several aspects of the anti-Zionist permutation of anti-Semitism.

In 1979, in the original French version of his book The Anti-Zionist Complex, Jacques Givet wrote: “The anti-Zionist becomes an overt anti-Semite as soon as he goes beyond criticism of the policies of the Jerusalem government (a favorite activity of the Israelis themselves) and challenges the very existence of the State of Israel.”

There you have it JT, from your own source.....anti-Zionist is NOT antisemite until it manifests as antisemitism. Most, if not all anti-Israel/anti-Zionist members here are not antisemite as you continually allege. It is your persistent allegations of antisemitism here that drive people to question the over-use of the word.

As in the UK, it appears that the antisemitism accusation is made at the drop of a hat; "Down with Israel" will be labelled antisemitism, and I'm sure that many of the reports of antisemitism in the OP are just that; anti-Israel sentiments that are construed as antisemitism.

And once more, I suggest having a look at the report instead of guessing how incidents are classified etc.

[Ulysses G.]

Most, if not all anti-Israel/anti-Zionist members here are not antisemite as you continually allege.

The hateful posts that were reported and deleted by moderation over a period of time say otherwise.

Most men would rather deny a hard truth than face it.

― George R.R. Martin

Edited February 7, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Jingthing]

Why would you assume people don't know (or suspect) I am a Jew? Besides that, none of your business. This topic isn't about my personal experiences.

Then why did you bring them into it?

"I am a Jew and do not practice Judaism but still a target of Jew haters (antisemites). "

That one sentence out of context distorts the meaning. I'm assuming that was a deliberate game you're playing, That is not cool

Others, the meaning of my thoughts explaining that Judaism is a religion and Jews are people is in the post above. No point in any further comment on the matter in response to a deliberately distorted loaded question.

Please don't be so defensive, I am not criticising you but asking a simple question.

The topic of this thread is "Anti-semitic incidents", and it would appear you are claiming to have been on the receiving end.

I was simply asking why, given that you said yourself that you do not practise Judaism.

Any person (including you) who reads that post IN CONTEXT can clearly see I was asserting absolutely nothing EITHER WAY about my personal experiences with antisemitic attacks. Again, please desist from unwelcome personal baiting based on spin tricks and obviously manipulative edits, and just stick to the topic.

What the context of that post was about involved asserting that antisemitism is not only about hatred against Judaism the religion, but also of course Jews, as in JEWISH PEOPLE.

As far as vulnerability IN GENERAL to antisemitic attacks, a lot depends on the visibility/identity clues of the Jewish person and WHERE they are in the world.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jingthing

[Chicog]

Any person (including you) who reads that post IN CONTEXT can clearly see I was asserting absolutely nothing EITHER WAY about my personal experiences with antisemitic attacks. Again, please desist from unwelcome personal baiting based on spin tricks and obviously manipulative edits, and just stick to the topic.

What the context of that post was about involved asserting that antisemitism is not only about hatred against Judaism the religion, but also of course Jews, as in JEWISH PEOPLE.

As far as vulnerability IN GENERAL to antisemitic attacks, a lot depends on the visibility/identity clues of the Jewish person and WHERE they are in the world.

No it wasn't that clear, but having re-read it I take your point, and it wasn't intended as personal baiting. I simply asked you a question. Thank you for the explanation.

As for your second sentence, Jewish people by definition are associated with Judaism. That's what the word means.

Jewish

ˈdʒuːɪʃ/

adjective

1. relating to, associated with, or denoting Jews or Judaism.

   "the Jewish people"

There are other Israelis who are Christians or of other faiths.

However, a lot of these "antisemites", as you call them, are either unable to or don't bother to make a distinction.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Chicog

[Jingthing]

You're wrong. Many Jewish people do not practice Judaism. They were born into Jewish families, particularly of a Jewish mother, and thus they are as much a JEW as the black hat forelocked types. If you can't process that basic fact, that's your problem. Being a Jewish PERSON is not only about being religious (in fact it doesn't require being religious AT ALL), there are ethnic factors (for example Ashkenazi Jews often have identifiable ethnic features such as wavy or curly dark hair) and also cultural factors. Different Jews identify with their Jewishness in different levels and ways. Some Jews totally reject their identity and they are free to do that as well but in many cases societies won't let them if their lasts names are something like Goldberg ... in many cases Jews change their names to avoid discrimination and in history so many Jews have claimed fake conversions to avoid being murdered.

BTW, even your link disproved your incorrect assertion that being a Jew necessarily has anything to do with practicing the Jewish religion.

Yes I realize some obsessive anti-Zionists are totally invested in denying the existence of Jews as a PEOPLE. Tough cookies.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jingthing

[Chicog]

I thought you were big into dictionaries...

[Jingthing]

I thought you were big into dictionaries...

Indeed.

Note the word OR in your definition.

Dude, your relentless disingenuous postings here have exhausted my patience. This is clearly just a game to you and your motives appear to be to ANNOY rather than any truth seeking. It's time to add you to my honor/horror ignore list. I really don't know what took me so long to reach this point ... life is too short.

Adios and good day.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jingthing

[Scott]

An off-topic post has been removed. I have allowed this discussion to veer off in a non-productive manner. Further inflammatory or troll posts will result in suspensions. This is the final reminder. The topic is about incidents in the UK.

[Jay Sata]

It is necessary to look at the figure in context.

Here is part of the report...

Garry Shewan, Britain's national police lead for Jewish communities, said the charity's report was in line with increases in anti-Semitic crimes reported to police in recent weeks.

The charity said it received 81 reports of violent anti-Semitic assaults last year, including a victim being verbally abused and hit with a glass and a baseball bat in London.

Most of the reported incidents were not as extreme.

"The most common single type of incident in 2014 involved verbal abuse directed at random Jewish people in public," the group said in a report. In many cases, "the victims were ordinary Jewish people, male or female, attacked or abused while going about their daily business in public places," it said.

So we are looking at 81 incidents across a population of 64 million over 365 days.

Not exactly a huge number?

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Morch]

It is necessary to look at the figure in context.

Here is part of the report...

Garry Shewan, Britain's national police lead for Jewish communities, said the charity's report was in line with increases in anti-Semitic crimes reported to police in recent weeks.

The charity said it received 81 reports of violent anti-Semitic assaults last year, including a victim being verbally abused and hit with a glass and a baseball bat in London.

Most of the reported incidents were not as extreme.

"The most common single type of incident in 2014 involved verbal abuse directed at random Jewish people in public," the group said in a report. In many cases, "the victims were ordinary Jewish people, male or female, attacked or abused while going about their daily business in public places," it said.

So we are looking at 81 incidents across a population of 64 million over 365 days.

Not exactly a huge number?

How's about having a look at the report itself (rather than simply rehashing the OP) and getting a clue?

The report refers to an increase in antisemitic incidents relative to previous years.

This is more like 81 violent incidents across a population of 300k (which is the relevant figure for the minority in question).

Other than you, nobody claimed the number was huge....?

[Chicog]

It seems there has been a general trend upwards in racist abuse since 2002, and I don't doubt that abuse of other races or creeds is on the rise too.

I don't see why abuse of one particular group merits more attention than another.

It's all equally insidious.

[Chicog]

I thought you were big into dictionaries...

Indeed.

Note the word OR in your definition.

Dude, your relentless disingenuous postings here have exhausted my patience. This is clearly just a game to you and your motives appear to be to ANNOY rather than any truth seeking. It's time to add you to my honor/horror ignore list. I really don't know what took me so long to reach this point ... life is too short.

Adios and good day.

Notwithstanding his decision to stick his fingers in his ears and go "Ner Ner Ner", I have no such intentions whatsoever.

But I will not accept this constant redefinition of words to suit ones argument.

[Jingthing]

It is necessary to look at the figure in context.

Here is part of the report...

Garry Shewan, Britain's national police lead for Jewish communities, said the charity's report was in line with increases in anti-Semitic crimes reported to police in recent weeks.

The charity said it received 81 reports of violent anti-Semitic assaults last year, including a victim being verbally abused and hit with a glass and a baseball bat in London.

Most of the reported incidents were not as extreme.

"The most common single type of incident in 2014 involved verbal abuse directed at random Jewish people in public," the group said in a report. In many cases, "the victims were ordinary Jewish people, male or female, attacked or abused while going about their daily business in public places," it said.

So we are looking at 81 incidents across a population of 64 million over 365 days.

Not exactly a huge number?

How's about having a look at the report itself (rather than simply rehashing the OP) and getting a clue?

The report refers to an increase in antisemitic incidents relative to previous years.

This is more like 81 violent incidents across a population of 300k (which is the relevant figure for the minority in question).

Other than you, nobody claimed the number was huge....?

Now that would be very curious indeed if antisemitic (hatred towards Jews) incidents in the U.K. were on the increase against non-Jews!

Of course the number in question when looking at antisemitic (hatred against Jews) incidents is the number of Jews in the U.K., not the total population! The numbers are pretty bad for such a small minority in the U.K. -- the Jews. But as I've said before, if you're in the U,K. whether you're a Jew or not, you can test the atmosphere yourself by walking around the streets wearing a yarmulke (if male) and/or a prominent Star of David. Of course if you want to experience hostility against ISRAEL which is so often closely mixed up with antisemitism, go ahead and walk around in the U.K with a large Israeli flag. You might want to hire a bodyguard though for that.

It's sad that in such a great and civilized country as the U.K. Jewish temples need to be under guard and I'm sure many Jews who would like to be more visible on the streets are choosing not to be out of very rational FEAR of assaults. At least it's not as bad in the U.K. (yet?) as in France and Sweden.

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jingthing

[Morch]

It seems there has been a general trend upwards in racist abuse since 2002, and I don't doubt that abuse of other races or creeds is on the rise too.

I don't see why abuse of one particular group merits more attention than another.

It's all equally insidious.

I have no idea whether or not abuse of other minorities rose, and if indeed so, that it was on par with the increase described in the current report. Considering that the Jewish community is pretty small as minority groups go, there would need to be significantly more such incidents directed at larger minority groups in order for the magnitude to be the same.

The abuse of one group does not merit more attention than another, unless figures support that said group gets more than its "fair share" of such abuse. As the OP deals with the Jewish community, obviously the focus would be on that community. When we'll have another topic dealing with abuse of another group, the focus will shift. Discussing abuse directed at one group does not come at the expense of acknowledging other groups abused.

[Morch]

It is necessary to look at the figure in context.

Here is part of the report...

Garry Shewan, Britain's national police lead for Jewish communities, said the charity's report was in line with increases in anti-Semitic crimes reported to police in recent weeks.

The charity said it received 81 reports of violent anti-Semitic assaults last year, including a victim being verbally abused and hit with a glass and a baseball bat in London.

Most of the reported incidents were not as extreme.

"The most common single type of incident in 2014 involved verbal abuse directed at random Jewish people in public," the group said in a report. In many cases, "the victims were ordinary Jewish people, male or female, attacked or abused while going about their daily business in public places," it said.

So we are looking at 81 incidents across a population of 64 million over 365 days.

Not exactly a huge number?

How's about having a look at the report itself (rather than simply rehashing the OP) and getting a clue?

The report refers to an increase in antisemitic incidents relative to previous years.

This is more like 81 violent incidents across a population of 300k (which is the relevant figure for the minority in question).

Other than you, nobody claimed the number was huge....?

Now that would be very curious indeed if antisemitic (hatred towards Jews) incidents in the U.K. were on the increase against non-Jews!

Of course the number in question when looking at antisemitic (hatred against Jews) incidents is the number of Jews in the U.K., not the total population! The numbers are pretty bad for such a small minority in the U.K. -- the Jews. But as I've said before, if you're in the U,K. whether you're a Jew or not, you can test the atmosphere yourself by walking around the streets wearing a yarmulke (if male) and/or a prominent Star of David. Of course if you want to experience hostility against ISRAEL which is so often closely mixed up with antisemitism, go ahead and walk around in the U.K with a large Israeli flag. You might want to hire a bodyguard though for that.

It's sad that in such a great and civilized country as the U.K. Jewish temples need to be under guard and I'm sure many Jews who would like to be more visible on the streets are choosing not to be out of very rational FEAR of assaults. At least it's not as bad in the U.K. (yet?) as in France and Sweden.

Well, there that....http://www.kippamagic.com/

[Jay Sata]

The figures are not accurate as was pointed out in a recent edition of the More or Less programme on BBC Radio 4.

This is reflected in the Pew Foundation 2014 Global Attitudes survey - which suggests that in Europe unfavourable attitudes towards Roma and Muslims are more prevalent than those toward Jews.

The Pew survey also reports lower levels of anti-Semitic sentiment than suggested by the ADL survey. For France, the Pew survey suggests 10% of people have unfavourable attitudes towards Jewish people, which contrasts with the ADL poll's suggestion that 37% of people in France are anti-Semitic.

The numbers polled by a Jewish Chronicle survey are also not a true reflection of the UK.

The papers website suggested that "almost two-thirds of British Jews have questioned their future in the UK amid rising anti-Semitism".

The Jewish Chronicle told the BBC that the poll was conducted by asking 150 Jewish people at random on the streets of North London whether they or their friends "had a discussion about whether there is a future for Jews in the UK".

More or Less. BBC Radio 4 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28853221

Edited February 7, 2015 by Jay Sata

[Morch]

The figures are not accurate as was pointed out in a recent edition of the More or Less programme on BBC Radio 4.

This is reflected in the Pew Foundation 2014 Global Attitudes survey - which suggests that in Europe unfavourable attitudes towards Roma and Muslims are more prevalent than those toward Jews.

The Pew survey also reports lower levels of anti-Semitic sentiment than suggested by the ADL survey. For France, the Pew survey suggests 10% of people have unfavourable attitudes towards Jewish people, which contrasts with the ADL poll's suggestion that 37% of people in France are anti-Semitic.

The numbers polled by a Jewish Chronicle survey are also not a true reflection of the UK.

The papers website suggested that "almost two-thirds of British Jews have questioned their future in the UK amid rising anti-Semitism".

The Jewish Chronicle told the BBC that the poll was conducted by asking 150 Jewish people at random on the streets of North London whether they or their friends "had a discussion about whether there is a future for Jews in the UK".

More or Less. BBC Radio 4 http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-28853221

The article linked does not say that the figures related to the OP are inaccurate. Most of the quoted bit deals with other sources, not the one discussed. The article makes the distinction between polling incidents and polling attitudes (the OP deals with the former). Also, the relevant figures mentioned in the linked article do not exactly conform to the ones appearing in the report itself (minor discrepancies, but still...).

[Jay Sata]

You need to listen to the whole programme.

It is an excellent weekly production that debunks so many false claims regarding statistics.

[Steely Dan]

It seems there has been a general trend upwards in racist abuse since 2002, and I don't doubt that abuse of other races or creeds is on the rise too.

I don't see why abuse of one particular group merits more attention than another.

It's all equally insidious.

Were it to apply equally to all minorities you would be correct, the fact is Jews are leaving France and Sweden in droves, I don't think you could minimize the rise of antiSemitism in mainland Europe. The UK lags this trend due I guess to a smaller Muslim population relative to say France, but the trend is clear and specific to Jews.