The Anti-padi Thread

[skippybangkok]

Donna gave some great recommendations about the Anti-PADI thread belonging in another place. I guess Scuba Diving is the "right" place then.

Since this is an Anti-PADI thread, non-Anti-PADI comments should not be posted here and are considered :off topic:. ( guess this will will be a short thread)

There are those among us who have seen tons of issues with the certification of divers from hobo dive instructors who travel to thailand to well known reasons. Seen many who's main reason is the grog and bar girls, and... dang....they have to make $$ some how. Well, just pretend to teach diving a bit, certify some people even if they are prone to killing themselves, and collect ur cash. I have seen enough of PADI to question their real controls on their instructors who ultimately end up certifying people to kill themselves.

p.s. There are tons of PADI instructors who are a good and dedicated bunch, and I am sure they would prefer to see the back of there rotten apples.

Edited August 25, 2006 by skippybangkok

[donne]

everything has Pros and Cons.

u cant ensure every single instructor will be a great one.

the system of dive shop, thats the bad part in diving business. not PADI.

im not padi groupies but i dont think things can go wrong if u take it as education system ran by padi.

the dive shop should be more conservative about customer's life, isnt it?

probably by questionair about instructors after diving or should have standard for hiring certified instructor.

i blame the business, darling.

personally, i hv never met the rotten apples.

[Chantal]

Donna gave some great recommendations about the Anti-PADI thread belonging in another place. I guess Scuba Diving is the "right" place then.

Since this is an Anti-PADI thread, non-Anti-PADI comments should not be posted here and are considered :off topic:. ( guess this will will be a short thread)

There are those among us who have seen tons of issues with the certification of divers from hobo dive instructors who travel to thailand to well known reasons. Seen many who's main reason is the grog and bar girls, and... dang....they have to make $$ some how. Well, just pretend to teach diving a bit, certify some people even if they are prone to killing themselves, and collect ur cash. I have seen enough of PADI to question their real controls on their instructors who ultimately end up certifying people to kill themselves.

p.s. There are tons of PADI instructors who are a good and dedicated bunch, and I am sure they would prefer to see the back of there rotten apples.

A lot definitely depends on the dive operator. But in all fairness Skippy I have seen both good and bad Instructors from all the Underwater organizations - not only from PADI.

[britmaveric]

PADI certified for some time - I think it all depends on the dive outfit you go with. I couldnt say enough how professional Aquanauts is. The lads there are top quality and a credit to PADI.

[jdinasia]

Same here Brit. I have never had a bad experience with PADI outfits! That being said I have ALWAYS checked out a shop before signing up with them.

[H2oDunc]

Donna gave some great recommendations about the Anti-PADI thread belonging in another place. I guess Scuba Diving is the "right" place then.

Since this is an Anti-PADI thread, non-Anti-PADI comments should not be posted here and are considered :off topic:. ( guess this will will be a short thread)

There are those among us who have seen tons of issues with the certification of divers from hobo dive instructors who travel to thailand to well known reasons. Seen many who's main reason is the grog and bar girls, and... dang....they have to make $$ some how. Well, just pretend to teach diving a bit, certify some people even if they are prone to killing themselves, and collect ur cash. I have seen enough of PADI to question their real controls on their instructors who ultimately end up certifying people to kill themselves.

p.s. There are tons of PADI instructors who are a good and dedicated bunch, and I am sure they would prefer to see the back of there rotten apples.

Skippy I gather you have had a bad experience with PADI at some time as you appear to be very anti PADI rather than anti bad dive shop or instructor. Prey tell. Did you complain as PADI has a very good complaints system in operation. Or is it just lumping all (or rather most PADI instructors) as a bad lot. It is the same as me saying all farang are just here to drink, sleep with bargirls slag off the locals and generally abuse the place and the people. I know a lot that do but the majority do not. as I said I would be interested in hearing your beef and why you didnt complain. Over to you?

[britmaveric]

It seems to me the Padi instructors I know - all have well established businesses and have settled here. (wives/families included)

I think one has the responsibility to check out a dive operation/instructors and see if its right/safe for you.

[migrant]

I've dove at quite a few PADI outfits around the world, and took my son (when 15 year old) to Costa Rica to get certified through PADI. I'm NAUI but have had good luck.

I think checking the dive facility is a must, especially in vacation spot areas where the instructors may be more transitory

[britmaveric]

I don't think anyone would want to pay a PADI instructor to DIE!!

[jdinasia]

Truly!

It is NOT rocket science to know that ultimately the customer is responsible for checking out a shop and his instuctors first, BEFORE putting your life in their hands!

I doubt anyone would sign up with just any flight school to learn to be pilot. The same consideration should be given to learning to survive in another environment where man cannot exist unassisted!

Edited August 25, 2006 by jdinasia

[rcm]

From my point of view Padi isn't bad at all, in particular if you want to make a living with it. I made my Padi OWSI a few years back but out of personal interest and further experience i decided also to do it with FFESSM ( Fédération Française d'Etudes et de Sports Sous Marins) . There is good & bad in both ... teaching is easier with Padi as it provides tons of teaching Aids that other Dive Associations can only dream of. With FFessm i found the strong points in particular when you reach a 2 star Diver, it is to my opinion a more educated & physical able Diver than ,the supposed to be equvivalent, Rescue Diver from Padi . Reaching Divemaster /Instructor level is almost too easy with Padi while FFESSM makes it too difficult . I have seen on many occations that the FFESSM Dive Instructors made it too difficult for the entry level Divers, while at Padi " everybody" goes diving. PADI Diving is for (almost) everybody and i agree on that , but it doesn't mean to give OW Certifications too easy as i have so often seen.

rcm

[Plus]

Skippy is unhappy about the way PADI ceritifes just about everyone and lacks QC over schools offering PADI certification.

Business is business and business must grow.

No way a complete novice can tell a good shop from bad. Who knows how often they service their tanks? How often they SHOULD service them? Who knows what a boat should have on board. A big icebox? Decompression chamber? What should be in their medical kit?

How a walk-in tourist looking for his first dive going to know all that before he hands over the money? Tourists trust names - if it's PADI and it's all over the place, then it must be good.

[jdinasia]

Nice balanced post RCM Good to hear from folks with certs from the other groups!

C'mon there's gotta be SOMEONE out there that has a huge chip on their shoulders about PADI to help skippy out!

Edited August 25, 2006 by jdinasia

[skippybangkok]

Skippy is unhappy about the way PADI ceritifes just about everyone and lacks QC over schools offering PADI certification.

Business is business and business must grow.

No way a complete novice can tell a good shop from bad. Who knows how often they service their tanks? How often they SHOULD service them? Who knows what a boat should have on board. A big icebox? Decompression chamber? What should be in their medical kit?

How a walk-in tourist looking for his first dive going to know all that before he hands over the money? Tourists trust names - if it's PADI and it's all over the place, then it must be good.

I have a very good friend who is a great ( PADI ) instructor.

I compare it to an industry I used to work in a previous life ( ISO 9000 certification ) and there was one certification body who was extrememly good in sales ( Bxxx ) and had totally zero standards. Main goals was quantity of work and $$$ at the detriment of the industry. Basically, pay your cash, and you get ur certificate. For all the hype about "maintaining standards" in that industry, I can tell you from insider knowledge the certification these days is a total joke. Yes, there are some companies which maintain standards, but few and far between.

From what I see in PADI, it is so similar..... its a big business, and the standards are low. The quality of the out put is not linked to the great controls PADI has, rather the people who are interested in doing a good job ( and there are ).

For the record, we did on a few occaisions bring things to the attention of PADI. Not only were they protective of their licencees, they never bothered to go and check. ( extremely bad air was one case - you could smell the oil in the air , the other was the divers who were a statistic waiting to happen ).

[jdinasia]

Skippy is unhappy about the way PADI ceritifes just about everyone and lacks QC over schools offering PADI certification.

Business is business and business must grow.

No way a complete novice can tell a good shop from bad. Who knows how often they service their tanks? How often they SHOULD service them? Who knows what a boat should have on board. A big icebox? Decompression chamber? What should be in their medical kit?

How a walk-in tourist looking for his first dive going to know all that before he hands over the money? Tourists trust names - if it's PADI and it's all over the place, then it must be good.

Plus

I guess if someone made a snap decision to take a dive class (their first) and just walked into the first shop without thinking about it that you COULD be right!

I know I didn't for my first dives! I talked to people and got reccomendations!

Yet the point would be that it would be a BAD SHOP and not the organization that they belonged to since ANY shop could be bad from any orgnization!

[rcm]

Skippy is unhappy about the way PADI ceritifes just about everyone and lacks QC over schools offering PADI certification.

Business is business and business must grow.

No way a complete novice can tell a good shop from bad. Who knows how often they service their tanks? How often they SHOULD service them? Who knows what a boat should have on board. A big icebox? Decompression chamber? What should be in their medical kit?

How a walk-in tourist looking for his first dive going to know all that before he hands over the money? Tourists trust names - if it's PADI and it's all over the place, then it must be good.

Plus

I guess if someone made a snap decision to take a dive class (their first) and just walked into the first shop without thinking about it that you COULD be right!

I know I didn't for my first dives! I talked to people and got reccomendations!

Yet the point would be that it would be a BAD SHOP and not the organization that they belonged to since ANY shop could be bad from any orgnization!

True , i have seen bad shops from Cmas, FFessm, Naui and yes Padi too ....got nothing to do with the organization but the shop owner...

by the way i am missing some posts here...where did they go?

[Plus]

Yes, JD, you can get recommendations, you can search the Internet, compare shops and prices, but you'd never find out about their backdoor practices - safety standards, operating procedures etc. etc.

In fact you'll have to judge only by their front - the website and customer care.

Not until you've completed a few dives with the shop you can talk about it with some weight. And if it's a new customer taking his Open water course, he wouldn't know how the shop stacks up against competition - there is little value in most "satisfied customer" opinions.

I understand that it's beyond PADI's abilities to monitor each and every shop in a country where most of the instructors are forced to work illegally, but isn't this a PADI bashing thread?

[jdinasia]

just a sour grapes thread actually! But again ... ANY shop from any org can have the same issues

[Plus]

Come on, give Skippy a hand, he started Anti-Padi thread and set the rules, didn't he?

[jdinasia]

you missed a series of posts BY skippy that were deleted by mods!

But still I haven't seen anyone BUT skip overtly slamming PADI. That is rather telling since so very many people scuba and have PADI certs!

[rcm]

you missed a series of posts BY skippy that were deleted by mods!

But still I haven't seen anyone BUT skip overtly slamming PADI. That is rather telling since so very many people scuba and have PADI certs!

Ah, thats where the posts from last night went..

Maybe skip made some bad experience with Padi? Maybe during his open water diver course he was getting some water up the nose when clearing his Mask??

I don't see any other reason for the Anti- Padi attitude as other Dive organizations do have their Black sheeps too.

On another though ...lets say skippy reached instructor Level ....maybe he was subject to a QA review , or lost his teaching status, and is now just a bit fuming around about it?

[sadman]

I don't know enough about the various organisations to make a distinction, but would agree that going on recommendation.

I know where I will go and am quite happy to recommend them. Can't give too much of a plug but the boss's name begins with Chantal and she has posted on this thread. No more hints, though.

BTW, I know a BSAC instructor who swears that PADI are rubbish, and spookily - I also know a PADI instructor who has no time for BSAC. Funny, that.

[Plus]

You can find people slugging off PADI on any diving boat, I suppose. I'm personally satisfied with PADI so far, unless I meet some old shark bitten diver who'd make me feel shit about PADI, myself, the freaking boat and the universe in general. Really I have no opinion on the matter and have no clue what Skippy said to get his posts deleted. I thought it was all in good fun.

[bazmlb]

I did my OW a long time ago in 1988 when the instructors had to acutally lecture and teach you and see where your weaknesses were and assist you, i now see the current method PADI use watch a video read the book answer knowledge reviews as a means to pump more students thru, it doesnt let the instructor establish your training needs as well.

I have been doing courses with a TDI instructor who spends a lot of time with you, that was back in Australia, PSA have taken over from TDI here, so things may be very different.

As with any industry the bad ones are the ones who get talked about most, as seen with another form of teaching here, 1 rotten egg made a mess for the rest. But i still think PADI have some fundamental flaws in their system, i think they have followed McDonalds type system too closely and lost a lot of the personal service aspect.

[rcm]

I did my OW a long time ago in 1988 when the instructors had to acutally lecture and teach you and see where your weaknesses were and assist you, i now see the current method PADI use watch a video read the book answer knowledge reviews as a means to pump more students thru, it doesnt let the instructor establish your training needs as well.

I have been doing courses with a TDI instructor who spends a lot of time with you, that was back in Australia, PSA have taken over from TDI here, so things may be very different.

As with any industry the bad ones are the ones who get talked about most, as seen with another form of teaching here, 1 rotten egg made a mess for the rest. But i still think PADI have some fundamental flaws in their system, i think they have followed McDonalds type system too closely and lost a lot of the personal service aspect.

To become OW Diver with Padi you certainly do have Books, Videos, Knowledge Reviews and countless other Teaching Aids. Other companies do not have that.

It is easier and faster for the Student to absorb Information if you have and use these Aids correctly.

Not to be forgotten . Padi does the teaching also in Confined and Open Water prior to OW Certification. There are full outlines for what needs to be done . I don't think think there are "fundamental Flaws" , just some black Sheeps around, but other Dive Organizations have that too.

The personal service aspect shouldn't be suffering either as there is clearly a Divemaster/Instructore vs Student Ratio also set and i don't think it has changed a lot in recent years.

rcm

[H2oDunc]

, i now see the current method PADI use watch a video read the book answer knowledge reviews as a means to pump more students thru, it doesnt let the instructor establish your training needs as well

Scenario for you my friend. You are on holiday on a beautiful island doing your open water. would you rather A be stuck in a class room with an instructor going through the training going blah blah blah which you are not listening to just watching people walking by outside enjoying the sun. Or B taking the course material with you so you can go through it with partner , friend etc at your leisure where you can if you are not sure ask your instructor about anything you are unsure of. I know which most of my students prefer. This method isnt as you say to process more people than before. It is because this is the way most people want to learn. People tend to learn more when they do it at their own pace. Some people need to go over things a few times before it sinks in. In a class situation these people will just say they understand what you are saying even if they dont because they are embarressed.Yes there are good and bad in all organisations, its up to you to decide which is which. Enjoy, Dunc

[jdinasia]

For the most part this thread has been "pointing out the obvious"

[bazmlb]

, i now see the current method PADI use watch a video read the book answer knowledge reviews as a means to pump more students thru, it doesnt let the instructor establish your training needs as well

Taking the course material with you so you can go through it with partner , friend etc at your leisure where you can if you are not sure ask your instructor about anything you are unsure of (this mostly never happens for the reasons you point out below)

In a class situation these people will just say they understand what you are saying even if they dont because they are embarressed.

Yes there are good and bad in all organisations, its up to you to decide which is which.

The PADI marketing machine is quiet effective at pulling the numbers, there are a lot who arent (happy with PADI once they start progressing thru the levels.)

The best way to do a course on holidays with PADI (or any others that offer it) is via the referal syytem they have in place where you do all the study before you come on hols, who wants to spend any time on holidays studying.

[rcm]

In a class situation these people will just say they understand what you are saying even if they dont because they are embarressed[/b].

I am certain that one or the other individual may be embarrased by asking questions ....in Padi you are stressed as Instructor to use 'repetition' when teaching, as the Student may not remember or absorb things the first time they hear...

The best way to do a course on holidays with PADI (or any others that offer it) is via the referal syytem they have in place where you do all the study before you come on hols, who wants to spend any time on holidays studying.

I think referral is one way to do it, the best way to my opinion is to do the full Course with the Study, Padi Teaching Aids make it possible that you learn things while having Fun - this is the best possible way to learn because you learn with less strain ....and if you are having Fun i don't think you will have a problem to ask anything you may have not understood.

[Plus]

My personal problem is exactly with this "study at your leisure". We had classes, but we also had to read through the whole book on our own, and even though we were tested I know some folks didn't even open the book. Lots of good stuff wasn't covered in the classes but was in the books.

Some people spent too much time trying to figure out how to use tables and the wheel. Total waste of time. Every one has a computer now, and dives are usually planned by dive masters anyway, not dive boat customers.

Another joke was underwater navigation.