To ABS or not to ABS....

[Gweiloman]

When I was first learning to drive all those years ago, I was taught to use hand signals.

Sticking the right arm out means turning right, rotating it clockwise means turning left, waving up and down means slowing down and right angled with hand open and palm facing forward means stop.

With the advent of technology (indicators) and aircon (meaning windows are constantly closed), this is no longer taught as it's no longer necessary.

On the CB vs Z800 thread, there is some discussion about brakes so I thought might be better to have a thread dedicated to it.

In general, given most road conditions, ABS brakes will stop the bike faster and safer than non ABS brakes. Why is it that some still prefer to have non ABS brakes? Isn't that tantamount to preferring using hand signals over indicators?

[DualSportBiker]

I am not convinced that the two are comparable; a system for voluntary sharing of information and a method to avoid incident or potential incident. However, my bike has selectable ABS so I have an opinion on that...

I believe better riders that myself, of which there are many, prefer to be fully in charge and in touch with their bikes. Up-country, I keep it on, but if ever forced to ride downtown I will often turn it off. The extra few inches it takes if one actuates ABS is all you need to kiss a cage's backside... And yes, I know that means I am too close.

[Shurup]

Well, where I'm from, we were sticking left hand out the window, to stick the right one it had to be 2 meters long. LOL

Many higher end bikes have an option to disable the ABS, however I would only do that on the un-pawed road.

There are some arguments on the net that a better rider/driver can outperform the ABS and stop the vehicle sooner but I really doubt it. Sure a good rider/driver will know his vehicle and its abilities and can utilize it better than the less experienced, however no matter how good the operator is, he can't know the road conditions as good as he knows his vehicle.

ABS will always give a better, shorter stopping distance on any surface, except gravel/dirt.

[Gweiloman]

I am not convinced that the two are comparable; a system for voluntary sharing of information and a method to avoid incident or potential incident. However, my bike has selectable ABS so I have an opinion on that...

I believe better riders that myself, of which there are many, prefer to be fully in charge and in touch with their bikes. Up-country, I keep it on, but if ever forced to ride downtown I will often turn it off. The extra few inches it takes if one actuates ABS is all you need to kiss a cage's backside... And yes, I know that means I am too close.

When riding downtown, I would have thought the reverse was better. There are more instances when we might need to actuate emergency stops (bikes and pedestrians popping out from behind other traffic, cars running red lights etc) and ABS would allow a safer and quicker stop?

[WingNut]

I think there are a certain group of people that like to be in full control and not have technology decide for them how much braking power they need at any given time. Personally I see no downside though. I read studies and reports in the past about how the number of motorcycle accidents and deaths has been decreased by more than 30% with the advent of ABS breaks. They will be particularly useful in rain. I am in favor of them 100%. I guess if you are a track guy though you may not want them, but we are talking about street riding here. No more skids is a wonderful thing, unless you feel confident you can fully control a skid in all situations. I am sure I can't. Thank goodness for ABS.

[ll2]

ABS has to be officially mandatory for all bikes even scooters. this way i am sure here will be very less motorbike accidents around the globe but the greedy makers and their lobbies keep it still not mandatory.

with a switch to make it off and on at times like dirt or track. but new gen race abs, you dont even need to keep it off on the track.

it is a life saver IMO and it pays itself very fast.

it is a no brainer.

[guzzi850m2]

Yes I agree with the pro ABS folks.

However in 1998 I was riding a Kawa klr650 on a 3 month trip in Australia (1 cyl enduro bike) and I was entering a corner way too fast (I never been there before but was young and wild) and the only way to avoid going down a cliff I had to lock the rear wheel and go down and eating tarmac. I stopped just before I went over and I was okay but had a hell of a time to free my foot from the bike. Stupid seen in the rear view mirror but what the heck, I done many stupid things over the years and are more careful now.

My current V650 2015 is the first ABS bike I ever owned and I think the brakes are very very good but so far never ridden in the rain (I try to avoid that nowadays).

[WingNut]

I think the only disadvantage to ABS is that they can increase braking time by up to 25% in certain circumstances. And some people complain of a feeling of pulsating coming from the brakes when the ABS takes over. But otherwise I don't see any downside except a bit of increased cost that could save your life. A good value for money I think.

What is interesting is that Honda sells their CBR650F in Thailand only with ABS whereas the same bike is sold without ABS in the states as an option. It kind of says that Honda considers ABS to be of extreme importance on bigger bikes in Thailand.

[Gweiloman]

I am not convinced that the two are comparable; a system for voluntary sharing of information and a method to avoid incident or potential incident. However, my bike has selectable ABS so I have an opinion on that...

I believe better riders that myself, of which there are many, prefer to be fully in charge and in touch with their bikes. Up-country, I keep it on, but if ever forced to ride downtown I will often turn it off. The extra few inches it takes if one actuates ABS is all you need to kiss a cage's backside... And yes, I know that means I am too close.

Too close?

I'll bet you can't beat this guy, hahahaha

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=448518428655818&set=vb.146415502199447&type=2&theater

[macknife]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

[eisfeld]

I (and I bet 99% of riders) am not confident that I can do as good a job in an emergency situation on whatever surface the tire ends up on as a good ABS.

On top of that it frees my brain from trying to perfectly manage one more thing in an already extremely stressful situation.

On top of that modern bikes start to come with ABS that you can turn off if you feel like it. Really a no brainer.

[rambling]

From 2016 ABS will be mandatory on all new bikes sold in the EU.

The only way ABS will result in longer braking distance is with a very! highly skilled rider and on dry surface and even then not by much. For average and even good riders ABS can be a life saver. It is a no brainer for me either.

[Gweiloman]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

Yes, this is what I always thought as well. I can only think of two incidents where my ABS has engaged - once when I stupidly tried to undertake a truck on the emergency lane only to have a food vendor coming towards me and the second occasion was when I almost overshot a left turn into a small soi. Both times, the ABS managed to stop the bike in time.

Another poster talked about the pulsating feeling - I have this on my Versys but the CB600RR which I road once at Donington has such a smooth system that there is no pulsating at all.

[mania]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

I will give you my personal opinion Mac we have spoken off forum before & I know your open minded ,,,,,,,,,,But it is my opinion based on my life of riding.

I don't want too nor will I defend it against the various statistics that will surely follow or the professors

of riding here that will surely want to refute it ( Both of which I am not referring to you)

555 sorry but that aside........

What you say is in my opinion missing the point of why folks like myself will never have ABS

That excellent braking skill you refer to comes from a feedback which is gone once ABS systems are introduced.

If they were impassive as you say racers would of course have them because after all as you say its just there in case & does not intrude/affect anything.

But the point is this...... what makes good brakes great are short as possible stiff brake lines (braided) that don't flex...good calipers mounted well (again not flexing) & a good master/lever system

This gives you feel that cannot be replaced by long lines going thru ABS pumps etc.

Once you have an ABS system in place that feel is compromised/gone. The ability to actually produce what you call excellent braking is compromised.

Of course ABS has come a long way & there are some top flight systems that are note worthy. These systems for the most part

are not on the bikes most here talk about. Same for a switchable system...yes nice it can be turned off but the longer than needed lines pumps complexity remains

so it is not gone nor has the feeling of a top notch braking system returned.

Again this is my opinion based on my experiences.

But those who say simplistic things like more ABS = less accidents are talking vapor

Yes it helps a bad rider perhaps not lock up but that is a fraction of the problem/problems that leave bad riders in the ditch in the first place.

That they lock the brakes in the first place...emergency or not shows what kind of rider they are. To mask that mechanically has in the long run

not helped them at all....IMO

Anyway...hope all is well with you & hope you like your new R3 looking forward to hearing about it

Edited February 24, 2015 by mania

[Shurup]

You have a good point which probably many of us didn't think about.

[Aussieroaming]

My last bike had ABS brakes and to be honest most of the time I couldn't tell the difference when I had ABS selector on or off.

[Gweiloman]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

I will give you my personal opinion Mac we have spoken off forum before & I know your open minded ,,,,,,,,,,But it is my opinion based on my life of riding.

I don't want too nor will I defend it against the various statistics that will surely follow or the professors

of riding here that will surely want to refute it ( Both of which I am not referring to you)

555 sorry but that aside........

What you say is in my opinion missing the point of why folks like myself will never have ABS

That excellent braking skill you refer to comes from a feedback which is gone once ABS systems are introduced.

If they were impassive as you say racers would of course have them because after all as you say its just there in case & does not intrude/affect anything.

But the point is this...... what makes good brakes great are short as possible stiff brake lines (braided) that don't flex...good calipers mounted well (again not flexing) & a good master/lever system

This gives you feel that cannot be replaced by long lines going thru ABS pumps etc.

Once you have an ABS system in place that feel is compromised/gone. The ability to actually produce what you call excellent braking is compromised.

Of course ABS has come a long way & there are some top flight systems that are note worthy. These systems for the most part

are not on the bikes most here talk about. Same for a switchable system...yes nice it can be turned off but the longer than needed lines pumps complexity remains

so it is not gone nor has the feeling of a top notch braking system returned.

Again this is my opinion based on my experiences.

But those who say simplistic things like more ABS = less accidents are talking vapor

Yes it helps a bad rider perhaps not lock up but that is a fraction of the problem/problems that leave bad riders in the ditch in the first place.

That they lock the brakes in the first place...emergency or not shows what kind of rider they are. To mask that mechanically has in the long run

not helped them at all....IMO

Anyway...hope all is well with you & hope you like your new R3 looking forward to hearing about it

Great post mania.

This goes a long way towards explaining why racers do not want ABS. Braking points are measured in inches (I could be mistaken but I remember watching a video of Casey Stoner walking a track and telling how he is looking for a point (to start braking) the size of a 50 cent coin).

On the road however, do we need such precision and feel for normal day to day riding or even long distance touring? Genuine question by the way.

One other thing - there is also a video of Pedrosa braking into a corner with his rear wheel off the ground. Is this possible with ABS brakes?

[Gonsalviz]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

It does at slow speeds and in sand on pavement. It takes a bit to get used to but once you know what to expect, it's not bad. On the open road it is great. Someone mentioned making greater stopping distances. That is complete <deleted>.

[dave_boo]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

I will give you my personal opinion Mac we have spoken off forum before & I know your open minded ,,,,,,,,,,But it is my opinion based on my life of riding.

I don't want too nor will I defend it against the various statistics that will surely follow or the professors

of riding here that will surely want to refute it ( Both of which I am not referring to you)

555 sorry but that aside........

What you say is in my opinion missing the point of why folks like myself will never have ABS

That excellent braking skill you refer to comes from a feedback which is gone once ABS systems are introduced.

If they were impassive as you say racers would of course have them because after all as you say its just there in case & does not intrude/affect anything.

But the point is this...... what makes good brakes great are short as possible stiff brake lines (braided) that don't flex...good calipers mounted well (again not flexing) & a good master/lever system

This gives you feel that cannot be replaced by long lines going thru ABS pumps etc.

Once you have an ABS system in place that feel is compromised/gone. The ability to actually produce what you call excellent braking is compromised.

Of course ABS has come a long way & there are some top flight systems that are note worthy. These systems for the most part

are not on the bikes most here talk about. Same for a switchable system...yes nice it can be turned off but the longer than needed lines pumps complexity remains

so it is not gone nor has the feeling of a top notch braking system returned.

Again this is my opinion based on my experiences.

But those who say simplistic things like more ABS = less accidents are talking vapor

Yes it helps a bad rider perhaps not lock up but that is a fraction of the problem/problems that leave bad riders in the ditch in the first place.

That they lock the brakes in the first place...emergency or not shows what kind of rider they are. To mask that mechanically has in the long run

not helped them at all....IMO

Anyway...hope all is well with you & hope you like your new R3 looking forward to hearing about it

Mania;

Would you think that the ABS interferes with the feedback before actuation? I understand that there are many levels of ABS, but just take the general ones offered in LOS. Do they mask the feedback up to the point where you'd lock your brakes (and then they actuate)? Or am I misunderstanding the operation and in actuality the fluid is ALWAYS being modulated by the ABS system rather than just under possible skidding conditions? I also wonder (not trying to pick a fight or anything...honest!) how much the added steel lines effect the feel. After all the braking fluid should be incompressible and thus the amount of force applied should be constant...right? Isn't that why some bikes have the secondary front calliper ran of the primary one rather than having a "T" junction?

Also, do racers not need it as they know how to ride to not get into the skidding zone and thus it is unnecessary weight?

[Gonsalviz]

There are some that can ride and some that can't. ABS is an attempt to protect those that can't.

I don't mind it. My bike has no way to turn it off but it doesn't really matter to me. It hasn't 'saved me'. It does create small problems at very slow speed but I have learned to live with it.

[dave_boo]

There are some that can ride and some that can't. ABS is an attempt to protect those that can't.

I don't mind it. My bike has no way to turn it off but it doesn't really matter to me. It hasn't 'saved me'. It does create small problems at very slow speed but I have learned to live with it.

I understand what you're saying, but that can be said about all safety devices. Wear a helmet? Not needed if one can ride. Of course <self deleted> happens and there's <self deleted> all you can do about some <self deleted> pulling out in front of you, but hey! a good rider doesn't need safety equipment.

I'm all for letting people decide what they want to do on the other hand. I can respect the not wanting to use ABS (although the argument could be made that it puts others at risk) as well as not wearing a helmet (which I don't have qualms about people not doing...as long as they have an organ donors card!...because I do it all the time). I am interested in knowing things though and that's why I asked mania those questions; not to wind him up or start a flame war but to actually understand what he thinks.

[Gweiloman]

There are some that can ride and some that can't. ABS is an attempt to protect those that can't.

I don't mind it. My bike has no way to turn it off but it doesn't really matter to me. It hasn't 'saved me'. It does create small problems at very slow speed but I have learned to live with it.

Why would your ABS be activating at slow speeds? (unless you are grabbing your brakes forcefully which I'm sure you are not doing and even then, a non ABS brake would lock the wheels).

[WingNut]

Nuff said:

"A recent study by the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) revealed that motorcycles equipped with antilock brakes are 37 percent less likely to be involved in a fatal crash than models without ABS."

[1BADDAT]

From what I've read, doesn't the ABS only cut in when imminent wheel lock is detected? Therefore, if you are excellent at braking then you have no need for ABS(except in an emergency) and it shouldn't affect your riding/braking in any way?

I will give you my personal opinion Mac we have spoken off forum before & I know your open minded ,,,,,,,,,,But it is my opinion based on my life of riding.

I don't want too nor will I defend it against the various statistics that will surely follow or the professors

of riding here that will surely want to refute it ( Both of which I am not referring to you)

555 sorry but that aside........

What you say is in my opinion missing the point of why folks like myself will never have ABS

That excellent braking skill you refer to comes from a feedback which is gone once ABS systems are introduced.

If they were impassive as you say racers would of course have them because after all as you say its just there in case & does not intrude/affect anything.

But the point is this...... what makes good brakes great are short as possible stiff brake lines (braided) that don't flex...good calipers mounted well (again not flexing) & a good master/lever system

This gives you feel that cannot be replaced by long lines going thru ABS pumps etc.

Once you have an ABS system in place that feel is compromised/gone. The ability to actually produce what you call excellent braking is compromised.

Of course ABS has come a long way & there are some top flight systems that are note worthy. These systems for the most part

are not on the bikes most here talk about. Same for a switchable system...yes nice it can be turned off but the longer than needed lines pumps complexity remains

so it is not gone nor has the feeling of a top notch braking system returned.

Again this is my opinion based on my experiences.

But those who say simplistic things like more ABS = less accidents are talking vapor

Yes it helps a bad rider perhaps not lock up but that is a fraction of the problem/problems that leave bad riders in the ditch in the first place.

That they lock the brakes in the first place...emergency or not shows what kind of rider they are. To mask that mechanically has in the long run

not helped them at all....IMO

Anyway...hope all is well with you & hope you like your new R3 looking forward to hearing about it

Mania;

Would you think that the ABS interferes with the feedback before actuation? I understand that there are many levels of ABS, but just take the general ones offered in LOS. Do they mask the feedback up to the point where you'd lock your brakes (and then they actuate)? Or am I misunderstanding the operation and in actuality the fluid is ALWAYS being modulated by the ABS system rather than just under possible skidding conditions? I also wonder (not trying to pick a fight or anything...honest!) how much the added steel lines effect the feel. After all the braking fluid should be incompressible and thus the amount of force applied should be constant...right? Isn't that why some bikes have the secondary front calliper ran of the primary one rather than having a "T" junction?

Also, do racers not need it as they know how to ride to not get into the skidding zone and thus it is unnecessary weight?

ABS only modulates when the system detects that brakes have been applied too hard and the wheel starts slipping.

Braking fluid incompressible. Rubber lines however swell under pressure. The braided steel around the rubber lines limit the amount of swelling.

Pressure is equal in each caliper on a two caliper system regardless if they are a Teed together or daisy chained. The fluid dynamics under braking are so minimal so they can be ignored.

[BKKBike09]

As has been mentioned I'm sure it won't be too long before ABS is mandatory. Probably a good thing too, although in my 25+ years of riding experience I've never owned an ABS-equipped bike. So my current bike (FZ09) not having ABS didn't put me off buying it.

Maybe there are benefits to learning to ride on a non-ABS bike precisely because it trains you how to brake properly (cue input from a certain member with the initials CJ ...), or maybe it makes no difference at all? To take an analogy from the world of flying, it used to be that spinning an aircraft (and obviously recovering it) was a mandatory part of learning to fly. Nowadays modern basic training aircraft are generally very docile and often quite hard to provoke into a spin, and spinning/spin recovery isn't part of the PPL syllabus, because it's deemed safer. Of course that also means that a pilot who's not familiar with spin recovery might find it quite alarming to find him/herself in an unexpected spin if flying an aircraft that isn't so docile.

Seems to me that until ABS is all you will ever find, it's probably helpful to have experience of both ABS and non-ABS brake systems.

[eisfeld]

Lies, damn lies and studies... or something

Would need to check if the study was properly performed as there is plenty of room for this conclusion to be misleading. Note that it doesn't say that ABS helps preventing accidents. Riders of bikes with ABS could be for some reason just more safety oriented (rightly or wrongly). Also since bikes that come without ABS are nowerdays of the more sportier nature, you already get a bias.

Anyways great post mania! I was not aware that excellent breaks without ABS have a much better feel. I never rode a bike with such breaks and I would say it's not easy to buy one here. I'm probably one of the bad riders you mentioned but striving to improve. Good stuff to think about and self-reflect!

[mania]

Great post mania.

This goes a long way towards explaining why racers do not want ABS. Braking points are measured in inches (I could be mistaken but I remember watching a video of Casey Stoner walking a track and telling how he is looking for a point (to start braking) the size of a 50 cent coin).

On the road however, do we need such precision and feel for normal day to day riding or even long distance touring? Genuine question by the way.

One other thing - there is also a video of Pedrosa braking into a corner with his rear wheel off the ground. Is this possible with ABS brakes?

Hi Gweiloman

IMHO & for myself yes I want the best braking system I can have.

It is not just a matter of precision but function.

No Pedrosa nor anyone else could have used the front brake effectively to the point of lifting the rear without ABS kicking in. Remember ABS is not unlocking a skid & while Dani

of course is not locking his front wheel it is spinning/rotational speed at a large difference at that point than to his rear wheel. That is what ABS monitors rotational speeds of the two wheels

It decides what it thinks is a big enough difference & then kicks in/takes over/takes away his ability to fully use his brakes.

Mania;

Would you think that the ABS interferes with the feedback before actuation? I understand that there are many levels of ABS, but just take the general ones offered in LOS. Do they mask the feedback up to the point where you'd lock your brakes (and then they actuate)? Or am I misunderstanding the operation and in actuality the fluid is ALWAYS being modulated by the ABS system rather than just under possible skidding conditions? I also wonder (not trying to pick a fight or anything...honest!) how much the added steel lines effect the feel. After all the braking fluid should be incompressible and thus the amount of force applied should be constant...right? Isn't that why some bikes have the secondary front calliper ran of the primary one rather than having a "T" junction?

Also, do racers not need it as they know how to ride to not get into the skidding zone and thus it is unnecessary weight?

Dave,

Yes of course it has interfered by masking the necessary feedback that comes with what I described in my post as a great braking system.

As to does it mask to a point of lock I would guess that depends on the rider. For a poor rider it does not matter much as they are just grabbing a handful & hoping for the best. It would not mask the limit for me but it has taken away a useful indicator & useful amount of braking. Once it decides I am too close to optimum braking/ or what it perceives as speed differences being too great between the two wheels it takes over robbing me of that point which is actually further than where the ABS kicks in. Of course ABS is not designed to act when a skid occurs but before it. How far before? Well as a safety device it is going to err on the side of what it thinks is safe/prudent

Steel lines help the feel not because of fluid being uncompressible

But because the line itself under high stress will slightly expand & actually physically move about. You can see it yourself on a rubber exterior type brake line especially the front brake. Have a pal press fast & tight/hold release repeat while you squat down by the fork & watch the rubber type line move. But this is a small fine tuning & part of the whole better system not even noticeable to many I would guess. But still part of the whole.

Racers do not want it not due to the weight as all factories easily break weight minimums & many times need to add weight. But it is just impossible to ride in those conditions with it. Again due to the ABS checking rotational speeds & whether they match or are within the limits the system was designed to take over at. Yes they could probably adjust software to be extremely on the limit but why? Because as you said these folks know how to ride.

You said they know how to ride to not get into the skidding zone Is this not something

Every rider should learn/know? I think it is. I also think if a rider does accidentally get a lock started they should know to quickly release & restart the braking process.

Same as a rider heading into a turn & then decides they are going too fastInstead of target fixating & heading to the outside of the turn they should instinctively know what needs to be done where to lookwhere to go.

Again this is all my opinion.This is what I know & what I want.

What others want/need is up to them to decide.

Edited February 25, 2015 by mania

[mania]

Anyways great post mania! I was not aware that excellent breaks without ABS have a much better feel. I never rode a bike with such breaks and I would say it's not easy to buy one here. I'm probably one of the bad riders you mentioned but striving to improve. Good stuff to think about and self-reflect!

Actually any bike without or even any car is going to have a better feel IMO

But how to describe a *pinch*? Unless one has felt a *pinch* it would be a hard thing to describe to someone.

It is wrong of me to say "bad rider" we all ride for the fun, the feel, the freedom etc...so really no bad riders.

But I do think all riders should strive to be better not just for the pleasure but the safety

a rider who wants to be better skilled could do far worse IMHO than to learn many of those skills in the dirt.

They will be rewarded with a clear definition of what a *pinch* feels like

Because in the dirt you can practice & feel what a lockup is ..where it is in the braking range & much more.

When I was young & taught many things I was taught almost right off to start with figure 8's

In the beginning 1 foot down MX style was allowed but as the 8's got faster & faster & tighter & tighter

it had to be both feet on the pegs & racing from turn to turn. Learned many thing thru exercises such as those.

How useless a locked brake is...what slides with both feet on the pegs feels like & how to control them with the throttle not the brake etc.

But especially all forms of rapid braking without losing the control of a spinning wheel reducing speed effect & not locking it & giving up

all control of any further controlled deceleration is good to learn

You will note all GP road racers spend time off the asphalt during the off season.

Some like Rossi have their own hybrid track a mix of concrete & dirt like substance on top.

There is a very good reason for this.

Edited February 25, 2015 by mania

[dave_boo]

Dave,

Yes of course it has interfered by masking the necessary feedback that comes with what I described in my post as a great braking system.

As to does it mask to a point of lock I would guess that depends on the rider. For a poor rider it does not matter much as they are just grabbing a handful & hoping for the best. It would not mask the limit for me but it has taken away a useful indicator & useful amount of braking. Once it decides I am too close to optimum braking/ or what it perceives as speed differences being too great between the two wheels it takes over robbing me of that point which is actually further than where the ABS kicks in. Of course ABS is not designed to act when a skid occurs but before it. How far before? Well as a safety device it is going to err on the side of what it thinks is safe/prudent

Steel lines help the feel not because of fluid being uncompressible

But because the line itself under high stress will slightly expand & actually physically move about. You can see it yourself on a rubber exterior type brake line especially the front brake. Have a pal press fast & tight/hold release repeat while you squat down by the fork & watch the rubber type line move. But this is a small fine tuning & part of the whole better system not even noticeable to many I would guess. But still part of the whole.

Racers do not want it not due to the weight as all factories easily break weight minimums & many times need to add weight. But it is just impossible to ride in those conditions with it. Again due to the ABS checking rotational speeds & whether they match or are within the limits the system was designed to take over at. Yes they could probably adjust software to be extremely on the limit but why? Because as you said these folks know how to ride.

You said they know how to ride to not get into the skidding zone Is this not something

Every rider should learn/know? I think it is. I also think if a rider does accidentally get a lock started they should know to quickly release & restart the braking process.

Same as a rider heading into a turn & then decides they are going too fastInstead of target fixating & heading to the outside of the turn they should instinctively know what needs to be done where to lookwhere to go.

Again this is all my opinion.This is what I know & what I want.

What others want/need is up to them to decide.

My apologies about the steel line comment. I was referring to the steel lines that run from the ABS system. Not the braided lines that you add aftermarket. But I worded it poorly. I definitely understand the importance of braided lines. And to nitpick, the fact that the fluid is incompressible means that something else has to give. Obviously we want that to be the piston in the calliper. Otherwise I agree with you as I installed some HEL lines on my Ninja 250...still waiting for some good ones for the 500X.

Otherwise I respect the fact you don't require and even less want ABS. At my skill level having that safety net is a plus. Perhaps in the future there will be bikes that have ABS but can be completely disabled at the dealer for someone who has completed proper training or has a racing license or something...

[ll2]

that is nonsense to say abs is killing the brake feel. abs is not a robotic system that brakes for you. it just applies the braking pressure on and off when the sensors send signals stating that tire/tires are skidding.

abs comes in effect when the tire is skidding and as it is a hydraulic system, it does not matter much if there is an extra length of hoses on ABS system as long as it is not 10 meters of extra length especially if they are braided steel lines.

also it is plain misleading to say ABS does not prevent accidents! so all those engineers, regulators and inventors of ABS are stupid then to create such a system and spend billions on it? i dont think so someone with respect for human life and fellow riders can say that allegedly.

i use a bike with ABS system now and brakes gives me great modulation and feedback.

only setback of an ABS system is longer braking distance if it comes on during hard braking but that is only if the tires skid.

if you know how to brake with a non abs system and use your abs brakes accordingly, an abs system stops at the same distance if you dont activate the ABS.

only on the track i can say a conventional abs system might be limiting as you slide there etc but then makers create race abs systems and put them on their expensive track monsters and they dont limit the bike, or basically you have an on/off switch so you can keep the ABS off.