Im Confused! Please Help In Land Ownership Question

[imjustagirl]

Hi

Can someone please tell me - can a company with 49% farang ownership (the usual 10 votes farang share, 1 vote thai share) own a house in thailand??? One soliciter has said no, due to the new land registry rules.....another has said they are not in force yet and another says should not be a problem. I don't know who to trust! Have the new rules come into force yet in Surrat thani?

Any help would be much appreciated.

[Nawtilus]

There is a crapload about this already, go forth and read.

[LaoPo]

There is a crapload about this already, go forth and read.

Friendly answer to a newbie, isn't it?

LaoPo

[imjustagirl]

Hi

Can someone please tell me - can a company with 49% farang ownership (the usual 10 votes farang share, 1 vote thai share) own a house in thailand??? One soliciter has said no, due to the new land registry rules.....another has said they are not in force yet and another says should not be a problem. I don't know who to trust! Have the new rules come into force yet in Surrat thani?

Any help would be much appreciated.

I have had a look, came across something called 'usafruct' (?)....Im probably being really thick but can't seem to find anything anything other than a post saying that sunbelt asia had notified that the new rules came into place on the 16th August...is this correct, the rest of the thread didn't confirm it, just went on to discuss options offered by sunbelt. Sorry if i am repeating previous threads, i just need a straight forward, simple answer that someone without a law degree can understand. I don't have much cash and don't want to lose my shirt to any dodgy agent who offers me uneccesary options such as lease etc if i can own the land still outright. Thanks in advance for any help given.

[sbk]

Here is a good thread that covers the basics and another that addresses this issue as well, but not Samui directly

You could also do a quick browse through the Samui forum for more.

[Gary A]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

[Khun Jean]

I don't know who to trust!

It is not complicated at all. You can not own land. Thats it. Really simple.

Only thing you can trust is the written Thai law. It is all on official government sites. To make it easier for you so you don't have to read all the articles here is a short version.

You can not own land.

So that leaves you with renting. That is also easy. 30 years. And then hope that you can extend it. Yes HOPE you canextend it, because you can not write it in a contract that the landowner has to. It would make the contract illegal.

Usefruct, that is the oldest way and will cost you 100 baht (or a percentage if you do not have a Thai spouse) for registering the land for you to use until you are dead. Of course you will have to compesate the owner. Expect to pay the same as if you bought it. It is the latest craze because not many options (especially the money making options for laywers) are legal.

Samui has it own set of rules, check the samui forum and have a peek at www.samuiforsale.com. They explain it very straightforward.

Gary A is right. But remember Samui is special. They don't have condo's there.

The condo's that are for sale are not really condo's.

Most important for further advice is, do you have a Thai spouse?

Edited August 25, 2006 by Khun Jean

[sbk]

Khun Jean, its not that Samui has different rules, just that they don't have condos.

[Khun Jean]

Yes sbk, sorry about that. Thai law is for all Thailand. Samui has been in the news lately for some scams so it would be wise to wait out the storm before buying.

It is just that developers sell it as condo's when in truth they are not. Until now Samui is special with that, but i guess it will happen elsewhere too, just never seen it.

Buyer "triple" beware.

[Charma]

This issue makes a regular appearance on TV. There are many threads on this subject, but many of them pick up the issue kind of half way through or veer off onto other areas. These issues are also constantly changing or being updated at the moment. Because of this it is difficult for people new to this subject to get the information they need.

Mods: Maybe a pinned topic for land purchase/ home ownership would be a good idea?

For the OP the issue you have highlighted seems to be at this stage:

• Many farangs have used 49%/50% Thai companies to purchase land, utilising preference shares to maintain control of the company
  
• There have been no "new" laws or rules to specifically prevent this
  
• There HAVE been memos issued over the past few months that indicate a "clampdown" on this method of land purchase
  
• These memos have indicated that this method circumvents the law as intended, because the Thai shareholders of such companies are not genuine investors and are merely stooges
  
• The date of August 15th was given as a date by after which enforcement would be more rigourous
  
• There have been indications that this will not only affect new companies, but existing ones will be checked at some point
  
• The effect of the memos varies from region to region and seems at this stage to depend on the attitude of the particular land office
  

This is my take on the issues.

There has not been enough reliable information coming through yet as to how far reaching these investigations/clampdowns are. IMO. I would not recommend that you purchase land through a company at the moment.

Hope this helps. Look through the other threads to get a more detailed account of the situation.

Good luck

[imjustagirl]

I don't know who to trust!

It is not complicated at all. You can not own land. Thats it. Really simple.

Only thing you can trust is the written Thai law. It is all on official government sites. To make it easier for you so you don't have to read all the articles here is a short version.

You can not own land.

So that leaves you with renting. That is also easy. 30 years. And then hope that you can extend it. Yes HOPE you canextend it, because you can not write it in a contract that the landowner has to. It would make the contract illegal.

Usefruct, that is the oldest way and will cost you 100 baht (or a percentage if you do not have a Thai spouse) for registering the land for you to use until you are dead. Of course you will have to compesate the owner. Expect to pay the same as if you bought it. It is the latest craze because not many options (especially the money making options for laywers) are legal.

Samui has it own set of rules, check the samui forum and have a peek at www.samuiforsale.com. They explain it very straightforward.

Gary A is right. But remember Samui is special. They don't have condo's there.

The condo's that are for sale are not really condo's.

Most important for further advice is, do you have a Thai spouse?

Thanks for that, found samuiforsale very useful and a bit clearer now. problem i have is that i am mid purchase and due to delays have fallen slap bang in the middle of the changes in company ownership and have paid half of property price already and now cannot be owned by my company!!! Looks like lease is only way to go, sheesh - all i want to do is buy a little house to live in while i work here! hey ho, life is never boring here!

[taxexile]

that someone without a law degree can understand

a lot of lawyers here dont have law degrees , so they will be more than willing to explain things for you.

the laws as they stand are a minefield , and untrustworthy people abound in the land and property business and in the legal advisors on the periphery of that business.

until the laws become clearer and property rights are guaranteed one way or the other for buyers , it would be best to rent for the time being. especially on the suratthani islands where government investigations are ongoing as to whether the sellers of many plots of land actually had legal title in the first place.

many people who have bought land are going through a period of uncertainty as to whether they actually have correct legal title to their purchase , either due to being deliberately misinformed or being misinformed by people who thought they knew the law.

it is very hard to come by correct or up to date information in this country , and so i would repeat, proceed with great caution and dont invest a penny more than you would be able to walk away from.

be very careful.

good lawyers with accurate advice and knowledge of ways of obtaining secure and inviolable ownership do exist , but you will need to find one before you put any money down.

i agree with the posts above from khun jean and charma.

[sbk]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

[imjustagirl]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

No, can't get money back as buying from owner. Am now thinking that a 30 year lease with renewal on the property through a thai colleague with a 'superficies' on the property is the best way to go (at least from the www.samuiforsale.com site ....then i own the building and if no renewal given then the 'lessor' needs to pay for building value, at least thats my understanding.

what a pickle! Its only a little 1 bed house for 1.1mil...so hardly worth the bother of not renewing as land must be all of 100sqm!!.I'm not exactly a speculator!! Get the feeling everything is so up in the air right now it doesn't matter what i do, look at those who bought under a company - they will prob all get investigated and i was told that it was completely ok to form company and buy this way 1 year ago! Big question is will the house still be standing in 30 years (probably not if the lifespan of the concrete roads here are anything to go by )!

[lannarebirth]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

If it were me, I think I would PM the TV poster named " Nadia2" and put my questions to her. She appears to be both savvy and cautious with regard to real estate legal issues.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showuser=25888

Edited August 25, 2006 by lannarebirth

[Charma]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

No, can't get money back as buying from owner. Am now thinking that a 30 year lease with renewal on the property through a thai colleague with a 'superficies' on the property is the best way to go (at least from the www.samuiforsale.com site ....then i own the building and if no renewal given then the 'lessor' needs to pay for building value, at least thats my understanding.

what a pickle! Its only a little 1 bed house for 1.1mil...so hardly worth the bother of not renewing as land must be all of 100sqm!!.I'm not exactly a speculator!! Get the feeling everything is so up in the air right now it doesn't matter what i do, look at those who bought under a company - they will prob all get investigated and i was told that it was completely ok to form company and buy this way 1 year ago! Big question is will the house still be standing in 30 years (probably not if the lifespan of the concrete roads here are anything to go by )!

I think your suggestion of the lease from a colleague is a good solution in your case. The 1.1 million spread over thirty years makes much more financial sense than renting and you will have full control over your house for that period. You could try tacking on a 30 year extentsion, but as you have recognised, this may not be enforceable. By registering the building in your name, you can then seek a compensation payment from your colleague if they don't want to give you another lease, or use this as a negotiation for a renewal. Who knows, they could be honourable and give you the extension for free. Whichever way it works out, you don't really have a lot to lose in this situation.

[Dragonman]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

No, can't get money back as buying from owner. Am now thinking that a 30 year lease with renewal on the property through a thai colleague with a 'superficies' on the property is the best way to go (at least from the www.samuiforsale.com site ....then i own the building and if no renewal given then the 'lessor' needs to pay for building value, at least thats my understanding.

what a pickle! Its only a little 1 bed house for 1.1mil...so hardly worth the bother of not renewing as land must be all of 100sqm!!.I'm not exactly a speculator!! Get the feeling everything is so up in the air right now it doesn't matter what i do, look at those who bought under a company - they will prob all get investigated and i was told that it was completely ok to form company and buy this way 1 year ago! Big question is will the house still be standing in 30 years (probably not if the lifespan of the concrete roads here are anything to go by )!

I think your suggestion of the lease from a colleague is a good solution in your case. The 1.1 million spread over thirty years makes much more financial sense than renting and you will have full control over your house for that period. You could try tacking on a 30 year extentsion, but as you have recognised, this may not be enforceable. By registering the building in your name, you can then seek a compensation payment from your colleague if they don't want to give you another lease, or use this as a negotiation for a renewal. Who knows, they could be honourable and give you the extension for free. Whichever way it works out, you don't really have a lot to lose in this situation.

Charma's suggestion is the exact, and only, recommendation I would ever give in your case.

[imjustagirl]

Do you have any chance to get the deposit payment back? Did you buy from a developer or directly from the owner of the property?

Anyone have any suggestions for this dilemma?

No, can't get money back as buying from owner. Am now thinking that a 30 year lease with renewal on the property through a thai colleague with a 'superficies' on the property is the best way to go (at least from the www.samuiforsale.com site ....then i own the building and if no renewal given then the 'lessor' needs to pay for building value, at least thats my understanding.

what a pickle! Its only a little 1 bed house for 1.1mil...so hardly worth the bother of not renewing as land must be all of 100sqm!!.I'm not exactly a speculator!! Get the feeling everything is so up in the air right now it doesn't matter what i do, look at those who bought under a company - they will prob all get investigated and i was told that it was completely ok to form company and buy this way 1 year ago! Big question is will the house still be standing in 30 years (probably not if the lifespan of the concrete roads here are anything to go by )!

I think your suggestion of the lease from a colleague is a good solution in your case. The 1.1 million spread over thirty years makes much more financial sense than renting and you will have full control over your house for that period. You could try tacking on a 30 year extentsion, but as you have recognised, this may not be enforceable. By registering the building in your name, you can then seek a compensation payment from your colleague if they don't want to give you another lease, or use this as a negotiation for a renewal. Who knows, they could be honourable and give you the extension for free. Whichever way it works out, you don't really have a lot to lose in this situation.

Charma's suggestion is the exact, and only, recommendation I would ever give in your case.

Thanks everyone for your help and advice

I am going to go with the freehold on building and lease on the land. The contract says will extend lease but as has been pointed out may not be enforceable. This seems seems the most safe solution (and legal!) and makes no sense for the lease holder not to extend as would really not be worth his time and trouble not to renew.....as actual land so small not really worth much...

Once again thanks everyone, feel much more informed now

[tominchaam]

Imjustagirl.

I really wish you good luck and hope it will work out fine many years to come. Good decision - it would be nice if you could give us info about the final outcome one day in the future as many are interested in going a similar way.

[number6]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

Hes been told others have been told but they still dont get it - LISTEN PEOPLE - as a forang you cant legally own land PERIOD LISTEN - ok try all tricks you want try to believe something else - maybe it will work maybe it wont - but legally LISTEN forangs cannot buy land - buy a condo get a 30 year lease (dont believe 30+30 etc) or if u have a thai wife trust her for xxxxx sake or leave her

I have 2 condos my name legal my thai wife has 2 houses her name legal - if she dumps me she

deserves waht she has PERIOD

PLEASE PLEASE STOP ALL THIS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YOU CANNOT OWN LAND LEGALLY HERE

GOT IT GOT IT

[JimmyGreaves]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

Hes been told others have been told but they still dont get it - LISTEN PEOPLE - as a forang you cant legally own land PERIOD LISTEN - ok try all tricks you want try to believe something else - maybe it will work maybe it wont - but legally LISTEN forangs cannot buy land - buy a condo get a 30 year lease (dont believe 30+30 etc) or if u have a thai wife trust her for xxxxx sake or leave her

I have 2 condos my name legal my thai wife has 2 houses her name legal - if she dumps me she

deserves waht she has PERIOD

PLEASE PLEASE STOP ALL THIS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YOU CANNOT OWN LAND LEGALLY HERE

GOT IT GOT IT

You sure about that? If you have got enough doe and you go via BOI then you still sure?

[Charma]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

Hes been told others have been told but they still dont get it - LISTEN PEOPLE - as a forang you cant legally own land PERIOD LISTEN - ok try all tricks you want try to believe something else - maybe it will work maybe it wont - but legally LISTEN forangs cannot buy land - buy a condo get a 30 year lease (dont believe 30+30 etc) or if u have a thai wife trust her for xxxxx sake or leave her

I have 2 condos my name legal my thai wife has 2 houses her name legal - if she dumps me she

deserves waht she has PERIOD

PLEASE PLEASE STOP ALL THIS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YOU CANNOT OWN LAND LEGALLY HERE

GOT IT GOT IT

I presume that you are perfectly happy that your condo fully meets all the legal requirements regarding the percentage of Thai and foreign ownership? It would be nice to feel safe from any other future "clampdown" the government decide to initiate!

[Khun Jean]

Just do like the chinese have been doing. As Heng told, just wait until the next generation. Mine are 4 and 5 year now. So owning freehold in the family is slowly but steadily becoming a possibility.

Allowing al the stories to keep circulating is certainly not helping. The wish to own is so big, that any spark of hope is blown up to possibilities and therefore future problems. Better not to imagine things and just take them as they are. There are always people willing to take a risk, most of who don't even know what they got into. And then tell others it is not a problem to do like they did. Sometimes ignorance and luck go together. But i would not trust on it when it is a large part of your retirement plan. If you have a few 100 million baht in the bank, sure buying that piece of land for a few million will not even make you blink your eyes when you loose it. When it is al the money you saved in the last 40 years, it is probably better to never ever invest it in Thailand.

If renting a place 20+ years costs about the same as buying it, why even bother. If you do it for the wife, that is recommendable. Still be able to walk away from it, and be able to continue your lifestyle. Divorces are still happening, don't close your eyes for this, especially in the moment of hormonal imbalance.

[number6]

I presume that you are perfectly happy that your condo fully meets all the legal requirements regarding the percentage of Thai and foreign ownership? It would be nice to feel safe from any other future "clampdown" the government decide to initiate!

as sure as you can be of anything here or anywhere - my lawyer (yes proper legally qulified top Thia lawyer not one of those who practise but dont even have any qualkifications) checked it very touroughly - but then in UK in 60's UK government confiscated hundreds of houses for so called slum clearance and paid £ 5 each compensation

[astral]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

Hes been told others have been told but they still dont get it - LISTEN PEOPLE - as a forang you cant legally own land PERIOD LISTEN - ok try all tricks you want try to believe something else - maybe it will work maybe it wont - but legally LISTEN forangs cannot buy land - buy a condo get a 30 year lease (dont believe 30+30 etc) or if u have a thai wife trust her for xxxxx sake or leave her

I have 2 condos my name legal my thai wife has 2 houses her name legal - if she dumps me she

deserves waht she has PERIOD

PLEASE PLEASE STOP ALL THIS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YOU CANNOT OWN LAND LEGALLY HERE

GOT IT GOT IT

There is no need to get so irate and start shouting.

(using caps is considered shouting!!)

Thank you

Moderator

[number6]

The simple answer is that you CAN'T own property here regardless of what anyone tells you. Buy a condo legally in your own name and sleep well at night.

Hes been told others have been told but they still dont get it - LISTEN PEOPLE - as a forang you cant legally own land PERIOD LISTEN - ok try all tricks you want try to believe something else - maybe it will work maybe it wont - but legally LISTEN forangs cannot buy land - buy a condo get a 30 year lease (dont believe 30+30 etc) or if u have a thai wife trust her for xxxxx sake or leave her

I have 2 condos my name legal my thai wife has 2 houses her name legal - if she dumps me she

deserves waht she has PERIOD

PLEASE PLEASE STOP ALL THIS xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

YOU CANNOT OWN LAND LEGALLY HERE

GOT IT GOT IT

There is no need to get so irate and start shouting.

(using caps is considered shouting!!)

Thank you

Moderator

Most humble apologies oh mighty one

but on that subject how about doing somthing about abuse and general slagging some ops get and ive seen tons of capitals used here and no slap on wrist please be consistant

Ps: how do i whisper