Faster or slower?

[papa al]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

Finally, a simple, irrefutable argument for safety.

papa be shopping for a decent food vehicle to ride around.

Or maybe and elephant?

[robblok]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

Finally, a simple, irrefutable argument for safety.

papa be shopping for a decent food vehicle to ride around.

Or maybe and elephant?

Yes or maybe just stand still with the bike on a highway.. i mean slower is safer so absolute standstill would mean nothing could ever happen.

[dave_boo]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

[Shurup]

Carol, you must be a troll or your comprehending skills are impaired.

You were told this before in other topics but I will repeat in case you missed.

IF (!!!) all other road users in Thailand and BKK in particular were as educated and trained as the UK road users, what you're saying over and over in your posts, would apply. BUT (!!!) Thai road users are NOT (!!!) UK road users. Many here buy their license or don't have any license at all, they lack skills and common sense. You can't expect them to follow your UK regulation and it's better to stay far away from such drivers/riders, which means be ahead of them. You will NOT be safe mixing up with them riding in traffic.

As an extreme example, go watch some youtube videos from India. With your "proper" UK riding skills you will not last even one hour! I'm in Dhaka at the moment and it's pretty much the same as India. Traffic lights are getting ignored, travel directions are getting ignored, rickshaws are creating a mayhem on city streets constantly zipping across all the traffic lines with no indication of their intents and riding on oncoming lines (in addition to motorcycles and often cars). CONSTANT use of horns is giving me headaches, for which one can get shot if trying that in Thailand. You try riding "right" here and on your very 1st intersection you WILL run over a few rickshaws, you WILL get t-boned by a bus on one side and a car on the other side! Whose fault is it going to be? YOUR fault!

That was an extreme example to show that your UK skills and training DO NOT apply all over the world, they DO NOT apply to India, Bangladesh, HCMC, etc, at ALL. They at least partially DO NOT apply to BKK.

If you fail to see this point, you can .

Post Edited - troll reference removed

[papa al]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

Daaaaave!

You not tryin' ta slip some USofA stats in on us are ya?

We talkin' Thailand...

...or UK, not sure.

Edited March 1, 2015 by papa al

[dave_boo]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

Daaaaave!

You not tryin' ta slip some USofA stats in on us are ya?

We talkin' Thailand...

...or UK, not sure.

Those stats actually surprised me. I had assumed that in a country where 16 year old idiots (and who wasn't when they were 16?) can ride out of a dealer on any sized bike they want to that the numbers would be more skewed towards the speed kills theory. I think that it's commonly accepted that most accidents happen within 10 km of one's residence so that would probably indicate a slightly slower pace.

[papa al]

Thanks.

Data in that report seems quite limted.

They present gross numbers where per capita might be more illuminating.

Big Sport Bikes crash most.

I've read most accidents are rider caused but most rider fatalties are caused by the bigger vehicles.

One car sandwiching a bike into another car at a stop is very popular way of rider getting snuffed.

[Much lower incidence in CA where filtering is allowed.]

Not data on on anything like that.

What this forum needs is a real whiz on research and data.

Edited March 1, 2015 by papa al

[joesanunu]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

Comprehensive study of motorcycle crashes in Thailand and their causes.

The highest percentage of fatalities occur between midnight and 6AM.

Mechanical failure is reported to cause twice as many deaths as speeding. Interesting stuff.

http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/49_nattapong.pdf

[dave_boo]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

Comprehensive study of motorcycle crashes in Thailand and their causes.

The highest percentage of fatalities occur between midnight and 6AM.

Mechanical failure is reported to cause twice as many deaths as speeding. Interesting stuff.

http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/49_nattapong.pdf

Excellent find.

Had to laugh that they made the assumption that helmet use was 100% in the day time. And that dry season implied higher speeds rather than an increase in number of motorcycle on road.

[joesanunu]

Drive slower = SAFER

Drive faster = EASIER

The fatality of any injury increases with speed. Just check all the food vehicles - how many of them has been involved in a fatal accident or accident at all. They clearly never drive faster than 20 at any given time.

False. 34% of motorcycle fatalities occurred whilst the rider was speeding. That means the overwhelming majority of fatalities occur at or below the speed limit.

http://www.iii.org/issue-update/motorcycle-crashes

Comprehensive study of motorcycle crashes in Thailand and their causes.

The highest percentage of fatalities occur between midnight and 6AM.

Mechanical failure is reported to cause twice as many deaths as speeding. Interesting stuff.

http://www.forensic.sc.mahidol.ac.th/proceeding/49_nattapong.pdf

Excellent find.

Had to laugh that they made the assumption that helmet use was 100% in the day time. And that dry season implied higher speeds rather than an increase in number of motorcycle on road.

Yea, and the mechanical failure excuse is very high. Must relate to the Thais face saving obsession. "throttle stuck..brakes went out.."

[Nebula]

No food cart accidents coz they r slow? But there r such. No accidents with cyclsits then coz they move slow? Sadly even few famous ones have happened. Someone remember the ninja rider and the benz driver that drove over him coz he was too slow? Or let say during rainy season, moving along with all the cars. 20 cm or more of water on the road and all the waves pushing u around and if not so deep splashes all over u pushing u around. I am surprised you Gweilo have the patience to keep explaining to the instructor. At first I thought what so hard to understand. All posters here (lets not forget how her many friends called the people here) saying the same thing(rare) and all of them living here and still cant get it.

I can explain it all with this arrogance to an extent which is obvious by sarcasticly calling all here "experts" and brainwash that has occurred during thr 30 years along with all the habits needed for Uk riding. Just cant get out of her own reality. Which is quite common for many westerners in the whole thai visa forum. And lat lets not forget license here is obtained after Go, stop, park. Not after minimum hours learning woth an instructor and test on the road where ur skills and knowedge of the rules are tested.

[papa al]

Cognitive dissonance is ubiquitous.

[NoshowJones]

So lets get this right, you are actually arguing that the safest way to travel is to be racing ahead of everybody else.

You have to be there sooner than everyone else?

Or are you saying that it's a right for all Bikers to race ahead of all car drivers?

I think you will have a lot of car drivers who think they have the right to be in front as well?

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers.

Emergency vehicles want to be at the front because they are saving lives.

And at the end of the day because the junction at the end of the road is clogged up with the people who wanted to 'be in front' ten mins earlier now nobody is going anywhere fast.

There have been many studies done of this round the world, there are advanced traffic systems around major city hubs designed to speed up flow due to these facts.

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers. Since when did money come into this? Tuk Tuk and taxi drivers have no more right to the road than anyone else.

[dave_boo]

So lets get this right, you are actually arguing that the safest way to travel is to be racing ahead of everybody else.

You have to be there sooner than everyone else?

Or are you saying that it's a right for all Bikers to race ahead of all car drivers?

I think you will have a lot of car drivers who think they have the right to be in front as well?

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers.

Emergency vehicles want to be at the front because they are saving lives.

And at the end of the day because the junction at the end of the road is clogged up with the people who wanted to 'be in front' ten mins earlier now nobody is going anywhere fast.

There have been many studies done of this round the world, there are advanced traffic systems around major city hubs designed to speed up flow due to these facts.

Tuk Tuk and Taxi drivers deserve to be in front because they are carrying paying customers. Since when did money come into this? Tuk Tuk and taxi drivers have no more right to the road than anyone else.

My of them use LPG that is partly subsidised by us petrol engine folks. So they should be letting us queue to the front as we're the ones putting food on their tables...

[Carol Jadzia]

Well done all you Thai riding experts.

I will be expecting the accident rates to start tumbling in Thailand very soon as you all seem to have all the answers.

Keep up the good work.

Seems my friends were right.

[dave_boo]

Well done all you Thai riding experts.

I will be expecting the accident rates to start tumbling in Thailand very soon as you all seem to have all the answers.

Keep up the good work.

Seems my friends were right.

I am sure that if you're as pompous in real life as you appear on this forum your "friends" said what you wanted to hear to shut you the <deleted> up.

I just keep coming back to your theories against our practical experience and the accident rates arising between them. And it seems that following your book learning results in more accidents per km.

[Carol Jadzia]

I just keep coming back to your theories against our practical experience and the accident rates arising between them. And it seems that following your book learning results in more accidents per km.

Well your book reading seems to attribute all of the British Training system, proven riding skills from years of experience and practice by hundreds of Instructors and Assessors all to me.

Thanks for that I am honoured.

[Carol Jadzia]

I am sure that if you're as pompous in real life as you appear on this forum your "friends" said what you wanted to hear to shut you the <deleted> up.

I just keep coming back to your theories against our practical experience and the accident rates arising between them. And it seems that following your book learning results in more accidents per km.

Actually a lot of my friends think I am more Pompous than this at times. many say thats why they love me,

Not my Theories. Proven facts.

Oh sorry, forgot. No I learned it all from a book

Keep up the good work

Like I said your the expert. Well done.

[Shurup]

Well your book reading seems to attribute all of the British Training system, proven riding skills from years of experience and practice by hundreds of Instructors and Assessors all to me.

Thanks for that I am honoured.

[Jerry Cornelius]

There's statistics and personal opinion. Some use a particular statistic (or grouping) to argue their particular cause.

In the real world, there are justifications for both high and low speeds. Both taken to extremes can create problems for the rider/driver and others they encounter on the roads (or even tracks). Experience is the key factor, however gained. Some of mine came from pain and gravel rash. Not a recommendation (other than to avoid) but it teaches you a few survival skills. Not something you learn clad in cotton wool.

There are venues here and in other countries where you can gain experience without the pain (hopefully) and more use of these facilities would be beneficial, Although it's an .added stricture, it has to be better than a pro-active action to eliminate bikes from the road as happened in nanny states.

Jerry

[Carol Jadzia]

Well your book reading seems to attribute all of the British Training system, proven riding skills from years of experience and practice by hundreds of Instructors and Assessors all to me.

Thanks for that I am honoured.

If that's supposed to be me then I'm a red head and can you check for ear wax while your in there. Cheers.

Did I touch a nerve to get all this attention? Good.

[Shurup]

If that's supposed to be me then I'm a red head and can you check for ear wax while your in there. Cheers.

Did I touch a nerve to get all this attention? Good.

Another try in case you didn't get a hint:

And she's a read-head also.

Did I touch a nerve to get all this attention? Good.

That what trolls do so I'm not surprised you were seeking all this attention.

[Carol Jadzia]

If that's supposed to be me then I'm a red head and can you check for ear wax while your in there. Cheers.

Did I touch a nerve to get all this attention? Good.

Another try in case you didn't get a hint:

And she's a read-head also.

Did I touch a nerve to get all this attention? Good.

That what trolls do so I'm not surprised you were seeking all this attention.

Yes I'm a troll, that's what this is all about.

Is that the best you can do?

Thanks for the pic.

[garryjohns]

Now you are talking. You are giving some concise reasons to your earlier assertions. This way, we can debate and discuss individual points and can walk away knowing more than what we started with. We can of course agree to disagree as well.

I disagree that covering the brakes (or at least the way I do it) will cause the rear light to come on. I am merely resting my index and middle finger on the lever. The force (which is extremely little by the way) is downward and not inwards.

The reason for covering the brakes is not because of one's riding manner but because of the behaviour of other road users including pedestrians. Do you get it? In Thailand, people do not cross the street only at zebra crossings - they are likely to get mauled down anyway. People cross the street anywhere and everywhere. Not such a big deal in resort towns but try riding down Asoke or Onnut / Lat Krabang. Unless you ride these roads on a regular basis, you are unlikely to understand why it is absolutely necessary to cover your brakes.

Adopting certain UK standards would seem to me to cause accident rates to "soar".

Moreover, and this is especially important in Thailand where you have 2 tons of pickup being driven by a TV Global moderator no less up your backside, it's always better, from the standpoint of safer and defensive riding to light up the rear brake to "tell" that tailgater behind you to back off.

I have said from the start I am happy to discuss theory but I will get protective when I feel attacked.

Your argument about accident rates soaring is flawed.

You assume that the prevalence of other influences in Bangkok is somehow greater than other cities, on what facts do you base this?

The reasons you cover the brake are exactly the same as why anybody else would feel they need to ride the brakes in that situation. I know, I find it hard to not do the same too.

But 30 years of training and experience have taught me that it is not the best way to ride. How much experience have you got?

Even when riding my motorcycle through pedestrian areas at walking speeds I still will never cover my front brake as at slower speeds basic control skills dictate that I will be using my rear brake.

Leaving the front free to steer.

At higher speeds then anywhere someone rides the recommended safety advice would be to operate in a bubble. To keep around a safety gap so you are aware and have a basic level of safety distance at all times. Now if you don't want to ride like that then that's up to you.

Here we don't get a choice, we have to prove we know the information I am only passing on to you out of interest. We get tested on it.

You started off well, but by using the ad hominem argument, you lose all credibility once again. Simple question then. You have been riding longer than Marquez, Pedrosa, Lorenzo and many others have been alive. Do you reckon you're a better rider than any of them? See the fallacy of your argument?

But putting that aside......as I enjoy civilised debates.........

My argument about accident rates is in direct relation to your initial claim that accidents rates will "sore" (I assume you meant soar) due to more custom built bikes, relaxation of import duties and higher disposable incomes. You do realise that the majority of accidents involves scooters and step throughs don't you? None of your attributed reasons directly affect the segment of riders most prone to accidents. Whereas I base my argument on what I perceive to be an unsafe practice (in Thailand and more specifically, in the bigger cities).

Also, I don't have "facts" per se to show or prove that Bangkok is more unsafe, just experience of having lived in cities like Singapore, Melbourne, Hong Kong, Jakarta, Kuala Lumpur, Bangkok, Zurich and London to name a few. As an experienced "motorist", I am able to make certain educated deduction about the risk factors faced by motorists in these cities.

The reasons I cover my brakes are completely NOT the reason that some others ride their brakes. It is naive to even think that. The person that rides their brakes do so because they have little to no skill in assessing traffic situations. They have absolutely no idea as to what is happening around them or what can happen. Therefore, they ride their brakes as a preventative measure.

Those of us who "cover" our brakes do so because we have spotted and identified potential hazards and are preparing for those hazards to become reality, if they in fact do. Simple case in point - on a recent trip on the 323 (AH123), I was coming round a blind corner within the speed limit. In case you don't know the 323, this is a 4 laned highway from Kanchanaburi to Sangkhla Buri. Speeds in excess of 200 kph are possible on this road (due to the almost perfect road condition) though that would of course be a very silly and unsafe thing to do.

As I rounded the corner, a tanker was pulling out of a small soi on the left to cut across two lanes of oncoming traffic. Travelling at the speed that I was travelling, I could have stopped safely in time if I had all my fingers around the throttle. As it was, I was covering my brakes going round that corner and not only was I able to stop a lot sooner than in the first scenario, I didn't even need to put my foot down as I was able to release the brakes and swerve around the tanker in an exaggerated fashion.

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you. Furthermore, as a large part of my life was spent in Asia, I would even venture that I'm more experienced in Asian traffic conditions than you. But like I said earlier, this argument is ad hominem.

Next, your last point about keeping a safety bubble around you. My understanding of an earlier post of yours was that we should be riding at the same speed as the flow of traffic. I find that advise inconsistent with keeping a safety bubble around you. Did I misunderstand your earlier post?

Finally... you are passing on the information that you get tested on. No one doubts that your intentions are good. No one doubts that the standards you are telling us about are good (in the context and geographical location that it relates to). I have previously been in possession of an Australian drivers and motorcyclist licence (unrestricted). I am currently in possession of a British drivers licence, a Malaysian drivers and motorcyclist licence as well as a Thai drivers and motorcyclist licence. But I would be hesitant to ride even a scooter in HCMC. They operate to a standard completely alien to Thai standards. By the same token, UK standards cannot be imposed (not in the foreseeable future anyway) on the Thai scenario. At the end of the day, one size does not fit all, contrary to what you are trying to advocate.

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you.

ahhhhh One momento oh lifetime rider try-hard.you conveniently seem to have forgotten your 30 year hiatus from bikes ? ooooopps

So back to basics, your couple of years on road on bikes is all you have.A novice still, by all accounts.

Edited March 1, 2015 by garryjohns

[Shurup]

Then comes your point about experience. I imagine that I'm more elderly than you and considering that I obtained my first licence when I was 16, I would say that I have as much if not more experience than you.

ahhhhh One momento oh lifetime rider try-hard.you conveniently seem to have forgotten your 30 year hiatus from bikes ? ooooopps

So back to basics, your couple of years on road on bikes is all you have.A novice still, by all accounts.

Do you have anything useful to add to the topic? It's already turned to shit thanks to our UK expert.

[Carol Jadzia]

Do you have anything useful to add to the topic? It's already turned to shit thanks to our UK expert.

So when you run out of capable arguments you start throwing insults.

Well done.

[papa al]

Hiatus.

I've always loved that word.

As in...

'Shut up muppit, you don't know your hiatus from a hole in the ground..'

Edited March 1, 2015 by papa al

[papa al]

CJ:

Again, you are very welcome to post here.

I enjoy your stuff immensely.

[dave_boo]

CJ:

Again, you are very welcome to post here.

I enjoy your stuff immensely.

[Shurup]

Do you have anything useful to add to the topic? It's already turned to shit thanks to our UK expert.

So when you run out of capable arguments you start throwing insults.

Well done.

Me and others came up with enough reasonable arguments all of which went through your head without notice. I don't see any reasons bringing anything else into this troll overrun topic.

And where do you see the insult? You call us "Thai riding experts" I called you "UK expert". Fair play.

Xcuse me, gonna get my troll stray to get them off my skin.