UK national taking Thai wife and Uk kids to Spain.

[daveyravey]

As per previous post i have decided to leave Thailnd with my family and started checking out visa requirements for the wife to move

back to the UK.My wife is Thai and 2 kids have UK passports.Married over 5 years.

My initial observations are that it is expensive, stressful and time consuming trying to get a UK settlement visa..

Now there is no specific reason we need to move to the UK and my parents own a lovely 3 bed house near Alicante that is rarely used and they will happily

let us move there.

Eureka Moment! Move to Spain for 6 months and see where things take us. I have read about the Surhinder Singh route and whilst

there is no underlying reason for us to go this way, i would like a 6 to 12 month holiday in a beautiful villa in Spain, and i might even

look for a business in Spain and never go to the UK if we settled and found a business.I understand i would need to get 12 hours work a week or more

or become self employed.

So what visa would my wife need to accompany me to Spain? Where and how do we apply?

I thank you in anticipation of the informative replies many great people take the time to post here.

[loppylugs1]

Yes looked at this for quite a while too. Looked at Spain, went over to take a look, probably where your place is Torreveja or thereabouts,myself did not like it,or the area,so many houses empty , now concentrating on Portugal,Lagos area ,looks nice, try there too the Algarve,some good reports from there.

Easy to get your wife in,just show marriage certificate,the Spanish embassy in BKK will be a port of call,is easy,after 5 years there she can go to the UK.

Need to get out of Thailand PDQ Im sick to death of it all,got couple of dogs and want them to come along, as for working there,it is nigh on impossible to find any form of work,Im lucky got couple of half decent pensions

JB

If you go to a web site Britishex pats ask a few qs there well informed site

Edited March 7, 2015 by loppylugs1

[Donutz]

Your wife can apply for a type C (short stay, apply for residency after arrival) visa or type D (long term/migration, apply before departure -takes longer to process- )visa. As you are an EU national traveling to another EU state your wife is eligable for a free visa, issued with minimum paperwork and ASAP. See the Schengen sticky. The Spanish embassy isn't customer orientated though, demanding (unrightfully) that the mariage must be known in the country of the EU national with legalisation of the embassy of this EU national country as evidence. Search this forum on "Spain" for examples in 2013-2014.

Edited March 7, 2015 by Donutz

[daveyravey]

I would obviously not be working or looking for work til we got to Spain,

so is that ok to get the visa.

Does anyone have any links to the visa application?

[loppylugs1]

Just go to the Embassy,they will inform you. All i was asked for was Thai marriage certificate and English translation,

[Donutz]

You can apply by sending a mail to the embassy in which case they must give an appointment ASAP -max 2 weeks-, or for a fee via the external party VFS.

Short-term visa applications can be submitted at the Visa Application Centre in Bangkok without prior appointment. Please note that you can also submit the application at the Embassy, but you will need to schedule an appointment at [email protected].

If you wish to apply for a Long term visa, please contact the Embassy ([email protected]).

You may wish to read section 3 "EU/EEA family member applications" of the Schengenvisa handbook for embassy staff: http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/visa-policy/docs/20140709_visa_code_handbook_consolidated_en.pdf

And read the directive (2004/38):

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2004:158:0077:0123:en:PDF

[MaeJoMTB]

Yes looked at this for quite a while too. Looked at Spain, went over to take a look, probably where your place is Torreveja or thereabouts,myself did not like it,or the area,so many houses empty , now concentrating on Portugal,Lagos area ,looks nice, try there too the Algarve,some good reports from there.

Easy to get your wife in,just show marriage certificate,the Spanish embassy in BKK will be a port of call,is easy,after 5 years there she can go to the UK.

Need to get out of Thailand PDQ Im sick to death of it all,got couple of dogs and want them to come along, as for working there,it is nigh on impossible to find any form of work,Im lucky got couple of half decent pensions

JB

If you go to a web site Britishex pats ask a few qs there well informed site

Coincidence or what!

Was looking at properties in Torreveja (using Rightmove) only this morning with a view to doing the same myself.

Cheap apartments from 16kGBP and up.

[7by7]

<snip>Easy to get your wife in,just show marriage certificate,the Spanish embassy in BKK will be a port of call,is easy,

In theory, but see Donutz's posts.

after 5 years there she can go to the UK.

She can, of course, go to the UK at any time; provided she has the appropriate entry clearance.

After living with you in Spain for three months (not 5 years!) she can use the Surinder Singh route to apply for an EEA Family Permit to live in the UK with you; provided you have been exercising a treaty right while in Spain and the other conditions are met.

[loppylugs1]

Yes looked at this for quite a while too. Looked at Spain, went over to take a look, probably where your place is Torreveja or thereabouts,myself did not like it,or the area,so many houses empty , now concentrating on Portugal,Lagos area ,looks nice, try there too the Algarve,some good reports from there.

Easy to get your wife in,just show marriage certificate,the Spanish embassy in BKK will be a port of call,is easy,after 5 years there she can go to the UK.

Need to get out of Thailand PDQ Im sick to death of it all,got couple of dogs and want them to come along, as for working there,it is nigh on impossible to find any form of work,Im lucky got couple of half decent pensions

JB

If you go to a web site Britishex pats ask a few qs there well informed site

Coincidence or what!

Was looking at properties in Torreveja (using Rightmove) only this morning with a view to doing the same myself.

Cheap apartments from 16kGBP and up.

Gees do not go there,cheaper than cheap,but you will never get out of it. A right depressing dump. Can rent cheap too,villa 2 beds etc. for 300 euros a month

[daveyravey]

You can apply by sending a mail to the embassy in which case they must give an appointment ASAP -max 2 weeks-, or for a fee via the external party VFS.

So its free if we go to the embassy but there is a fee at VFS? Do you know how much the fee is?

[MaeJoMTB]

Yes looked at this for quite a while too. Looked at Spain, went over to take a look, probably where your place is Torreveja or thereabouts,myself did not like it,or the area,so many houses empty , now concentrating on Portugal,Lagos area ,looks nice, try there too the Algarve,some good reports from there.

Easy to get your wife in,just show marriage certificate,the Spanish embassy in BKK will be a port of call,is easy,after 5 years there she can go to the UK.

Need to get out of Thailand PDQ Im sick to death of it all,got couple of dogs and want them to come along, as for working there,it is nigh on impossible to find any form of work,Im lucky got couple of half decent pensions

JB

If you go to a web site Britishex pats ask a few qs there well informed site

Coincidence or what!

Was looking at properties in Torreveja (using Rightmove) only this morning with a view to doing the same myself.

Cheap apartments from 16kGBP and up.

Gees do not go there,cheaper than cheap,but you will never get out of it. A right depressing dump. Can rent cheap too,villa 2 beds etc. for 300 euros a month

Bit off topic now,

But I used to spend a lot of time in Spain, Southern France and the Algarve.

Algarve was way more expensive, beaches weren't so good, but gallons of Vinho Verde did pass the time.

Spain was a lot busier out of the tourist season, and probably cheaper then France or Portugal (Algave).

As I speak French and Spanish (forgotten most of it, but sure it will come back) seems they are the obvious two to choose between.

[MaeJoMTB]

You can apply by sending a mail to the embassy in which case they must give an appointment ASAP -max 2 weeks-, or for a fee via the external party VFS.

So its free if we go to the embassy but there is a fee at VFS? Do you know how much the fee is?

Theoretically, (according to PDF previously posted)

You could all get on a plane to Spain (no visa) and they would be required to provide one at the arrival airport.

That would be a bit exciting.

Edited March 7, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[7by7]

In theory, yes.

Travel documents for non-EU family members

Arriving at the border without an entry visa

It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey.

However, if they arrive at the border without an entry visa, the border authorities should give them the opportunity to prove by other means that they are your family members. If they manage to prove it, they should be issued with an entry visa on the spot.

However, they would first have to get on the plane!

It is extremely unlikely that the airline would carry them without a visa; or if they did it would only be after a long argument and much quoting of and providing written official evidence of the rules.

This is because the airline will be subject to a large fine (20,000 USD per passenger if memory serves) if they knowingly carry a passenger who does not have the correct entry clearance for their destination. Not all check in staff at all airports are familiar with the EU freedom of movement regulations.

As the first line of the above quote says; "It is always best for your non-EU family members to be well informed in advance and have all the necessary documents before starting their journey." Especially if travelling from outside the EU.

[daveyravey]

looks like the VFS fee is about 850baht. Its an admin fee , not the visa fee. I have just emailed them so i should get a reply in a day or 2.

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain. Who knows we might end up staying there. Other forums say all we need is my passport, wifes passport, marraige cert and legalisation from UK embassy and 2 photos each. Sounds like an adventure.

[Donutz]

The VFS service is ofcourse only for those who chose to use VFS it's services.

On these and other forums most people encounter problems with unwilling, incompetent, ill informed, ... Spanish staff. Perhaps Loppy got lucky even though Spanish national legislation incorrectly incooperated Directive 2004/38.

Officially there is NO absolute need for a lot of paperwork (including reasons for return). One simply needs to proof that:

- the couple is genuinly and legally married (the marriage does not need to be known or registeristed in the country of the other partner, it simply has to be a legit marriage, not one of convience, not be a sham marriage etc. To verify that the couple is indeed married embassies may ask for legalisations, translations and it could help if the marriage is also registered in both countries (read: in the EU) but it should not be something to refuse the application over. Sadly a few embassies are being a bunch of **** and do demand this: the Spanish and French tend to be rather difficult.

- both partners ID themselves so that the authorities can verify that the people before them match those on the maritial papers and are indeed who they say they are (one EU national, one non-EU national).

- traveling together or joining eachother in an other EU/EEA country then the country of which the EU national is a citizen of. this could be something as simple as a written statement by the EU national.

-- thus there is no need for proof of accomodation, proof of transport, proof of sufficient financial means, travel insurance , no fees, no services fees etc.

Edit: Embassy handbook on EU/EEA documentation:

It is an established principle of EU law in the area of free movement that visa applicants have

the right of choice of the documentary evidence by which they wish to prove that they are

covered by the Directive (i.e. of the family link, dependency ...). Member States may,

however, ask for specific documents (e.g. a marriage certificate as the means of proving the

existence of marriage), but should not refuse other means of proof.

3.7. Burden of proof

The burden of proof applicable in the framework of the visa application under the Directive is twofold:

Firstly, it is up to the visa applicant to prove that he is a beneficiary of the Directive. He must

be able to provide documentary evidence foreseen above as he must be able to present

evidence to support his claim. If he fails to provide such evidence, the consulate can conclude that the applicant is not

entitled to the specific treatment under the Directive.

Additional documents may not be required regarding the purpose of travel and means of

subsistence (e.g. proof of accommodation, proof of cost of travelling),which is reflected in

the exemption for family members of EU citizens from filling in the following fields of the

visa application form: (..)

An EU/EEA type of application could only be refused if you commited fraud (you are not actually married for instance), or there is a threat to national security (hope your spouse is not on an international wanted list... ).

Edited March 7, 2015 by Donutz

[7by7]

<snip>

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain.

Not necessarily.

The freedom of movement treaty rights are:

1. Student
2. Jobseeker
3. Worker, employed or self employed
4. Living off independent means, e.g. a pension or investment income.

Assuming 1,3 and 4 don't apply to you, you could live in Spain as a jobseeker and your wife can live there with you. However, many countries put a time limit on this; usually three months, after which you would have to leave unless you can show you have a realistic chance of finding work in the very near future.

What the Spanish position on this is, I don't know.

[loppylugs1]

Look I have been in and out of Spain multiple times,times needed official stamping for this and that. The Spanish border officials do not have a clue, probably could not read English anyhow, could not be bothered stamp 'ere ,stamp there.

Actually the suggestion of turning up at the border without a visa sounds OK,just the 'plane ride ,but I'm sure there are sites on the comp ,or even a trip down Kahsean Rd (sp) BKK that could provide something for the airline.

Yes all I was asked for was Thai certificate and English translation. I did a fair bit of asking too while there from people who had completed the process,just that fancy edged certificate and the English translation.

Anyway its Spain you want,try Bulgaria or one of those countries for entry,one in,all in,send for the kids later

[daveyravey]

<snip>

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain.

Not necessarily.

The freedom of movement treaty rights are:

1. Student
2. Jobseeker
3. Worker, employed or self employed
4. Living off independent means, e.g. a pension or investment income.

Assuming 1,3 and 4 don't apply to you, you could live in Spain as a jobseeker and your wife can live there with you. However, many countries put a time limit on this; usually three months, after which you would have to leave unless you can show you have a realistic chance of finding work in the very near future.

What the Spanish position on this is, I don't know.

Edited March 7, 2015 by daveyravey

[daveyravey]

<snip>

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain.

Not necessarily.

The freedom of movement treaty rights are:

1. Student
2. Jobseeker
3. Worker, employed or self employed
4. Living off independent means, e.g. a pension or investment income.

Assuming 1,3 and 4 don't apply to you, you could live in Spain as a jobseeker and your wife can live there with you. However, many countries put a time limit on this; usually three months, after which you would have to leave unless you can show you have a realistic chance of finding work in the very near future.

What the Spanish position on this is, I don't know.

If i choose living off independent means can my wife still relocate to the uk with me? i have enough money to last 6 months there.

Edited March 7, 2015 by daveyravey

[Donutz]

Look I have been in and out of Spain multiple times,times needed official stamping for this and that. The Spanish border officials do not have a clue, probably could not read English anyhow, could not be bothered stamp 'ere ,stamp there.

Actually the suggestion of turning up at the border without a visa sounds OK,just the 'plane ride ,but I'm sure there are sites on the comp ,or even a trip down Kahsean Rd (sp) BKK that could provide something for the airline.

Yes all I was asked for was Thai certificate and English translation. I did a fair bit of asking too while there from people who had completed the process,just that fancy edged certificate and the English translation.

I wish most or all people had such a pleasant experience, and that Davey will have a pleasant experence, dealing with the Spanish authorities (embassy in BKK), which unfortunately is not the case.

See this topic for example (there are more on this forum and elsewhere):

- http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/703486-spanish-schengen-visa-new-rule/

So at the very least one should (always) be well prepared and consider the possibility that you will meet resistance of some sort.

Is it me who has to find work? or could my wife find work and let me look after the kids.?

The reason i ask this is because she could become autonomo which is essentially a self employed state that carries big tax relief for people under 30 yrs old. My wife is under 30, unfortunately im a little north of 30.

The EU Directive applies to EU nationals, it's about you using your rights, your family is simply joining you. You will have to find the job or some other form of income so that you will not be an unreasonable burden to the EU state involved (Spain). How Spain deals with this exactly I do not know. As far as I can tell once there things usually work out just fine though some authorities may still (incorrectly due to poor incooperation of 2004/38 in Spanish legislation) insist on the marriage being registrated or known to the UK authorities

[daveyravey]

If i request a 90 day type C visa for my wife can she exit and re enter spain automatically?

We might like to visit Paris for a weekend or something.

Is a 90 day visa automatically given and is it multi entry?

[loppylugs1]

<snip>

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain.

Not necessarily.

The freedom of movement treaty rights are:

1. Student
2. Jobseeker
3. Worker, employed or self employed
4. Living off independent means, e.g. a pension or investment income.

Assuming 1,3 and 4 don't apply to you, you could live in Spain as a jobseeker and your wife can live there with you. However, many countries put a time limit on this; usually three months, after which you would have to leave unless you can show you have a realistic chance of finding work in the very near future.

What the Spanish position on this is, I don't know.

If i choose living off independent means can my wife still relocate to the uk with me? i have enough money to last 6 months there.

There are more than enough bums living there,believe me Life on Mars springs to mind

Get a Russian flight ,fly to Bulgaria,once you are in,you are in sorta,nobody has a clue about English,even the Spanish when you arrive,just stamp anything put in front of them

Bulgaria not in the EU yet sorry, try Poland

your chance of work are zilch but your wife has good chance . Do the nails thing about 5000 baht for a course,massage,few Thai restaurants out there

Edited March 7, 2015 by loppylugs1

[Donutz]

A Schengen visa gives access to the entire Schengen area, of which both France and Spain are members. A multiple entry visum would be required for those who pass the external border (such as from any Schengenmember to the UK, as the UK is not a Schengen memberstate).

Embassies generally issue the number of days request (or less if they find it hard to believe that the lenght of stay is legit but are okay with a shorter stay rather then denying the visa straight away), multiple entries can be given to bonafide travelers that have a need for it (up to the embassy to decide on what "bonafide" is and if agree for the need of multiple entries -they might wish to see evidence of such need...). If you wish 90 days and cross the external border several times (such as a visit to the UK) you'd need to request this.

[7by7]

<snip>

Seems the crux of this is getting a job in Spain.

Not necessarily.

The freedom of movement treaty rights are:

1. Student
2. Jobseeker
3. Worker, employed or self employed
4. Living off independent means, e.g. a pension or investment income.

Assuming 1,3 and 4 don't apply to you, you could live in Spain as a jobseeker and your wife can live there with you. However, many countries put a time limit on this; usually three months, after which you would have to leave unless you can show you have a realistic chance of finding work in the very near future.

What the Spanish position on this is, I don't know.

If i choose living off independent means can my wife still relocate to the uk with me? i have enough money to last 6 months there.

I stand to be corrected on the following, but it is my understanding.

Whilst you do need to be exercising a treaty right in order for you and your family to use the directive to live in Spain, you would not, as a British citizen, need to do so when/if you relocate to the UK and use Surinder Singh to bring your wife with you.

However, you would need to satisfy UKVI that you will be able to support and accommodate your wife in the UK without becoming an 'unreasonable burden upon the state;' whatever that means.

[MaeJoMTB]

As far as I can work out (from the pdf),

Just go to Spain for 3 months with the excuse 'looking for work' & take your wife with you.

No other reasoning or explanations necessary, they have to give her a 3 month VISA.

No need to actually find any work, or you could sell a few items on ebay and claim 'self-employed'.

Then apply for a residency card when you're there in the first 3 months.

It seems they can't refuse.

Edited March 8, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[loppylugs1]

You would be far better going to the Britishexpats site in Spain,to get better insight to living there. Benidorm or even Barcelona seem to be the suggested places for ex pats looking for work. Many detailed qs and answers there,including schools for kids etc.

[loppylugs1]

EUROPA - European Union website, the official EU website.htm

[paz]

Spain, just like all the other EU countries with their huge immigrant mass, including illegals that are tolerated, do not have the intent, justification or resources to challenge Immigration from other EU countries.

They can occasionally make it difficult to obtain certain "privileges", like access to the health system, open a bank account, get permanent residency, but if one has the correct paperwork and is persistent, will obtain what he's entitled to, by law.

Really I think it's more about liking the place or not, than paperwork.

[Donutz]

Might this be of help?

I don't know about the details but recently I came across a (Dutch) list that explains the basics of the Spain route.

I'll give a brief translation:

1. Find a place to live in Spain.

2. Move and register in a Spanish town. Smaller towns are usually a better choice then large cities with waiting lists, bureaucracy etc. Ask for a "Certificado de empadroniamiento en el Ayuntamiento" .

3. Get a " Certificado al ciudadano de la Union Europea" , it contains the NIE (Número de Identificación). It can be requested via the "Officina de Extranjeria de la Unión Europea" (in Madrid).

3. Then you get a form Ex-16 , fill it in. Pay 10 euro's in fees and keep the paper that confirms payement of these fees. Take all this to the Aliens Police.

4. Now your family can come to Spain. They should get a free visa with minimum hassle and paperwork (no need for travelinsurance etc. ). You need to show that you are married/family, they will jin you ofcourse ID yourself and your family members. See the Schengen FAQ and the EU website on travel.

- http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/travel/entry-exit/non-eu-family/index_en.htm

- http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/index_en.htm

- http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32004L0038

5. They need to register with the municipality aswell, and request and request settlement. Asking for a "Tarjeta de Residencia de Familiar de la Unión" (" Tarjeta de Residencia de Conyuge de Ciudadano Comunitario" ?). If you wish to make sure which documents the authorities may ask for, contact the “Comisaría de Extranjería”.

Source: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/790183-schengen-visa-schengen-visa-route/#entry8916794

In your case flying together with your family from TH to ES might be preferable over you going in advance all by yourself. A dedicated "(UK/EU) expats in Spain"' site or forum obviously would be able to go more in depth. Briefly scouting the net I came across posts mentioning a family applying for "application for the Tarjeta de residencia familiar de ciudadano de la union" with an "ex 19 form" for their non EU spouse, with supporting documents such as the Spanish "certificado de convivencia con la informe de la policia" and ofcourse marital papers and official translation and legalisation.

Edited March 8, 2015 by Donutz

[Donutz]

So you could go to Spain (or any other EU country) for the purpose of finding work (employement)and various other purposes, including economicaly inactive. In which case financial means would have to be proven, the height depending on the minimum living standard of the given country (Spain in your case but don't ask me how much income the require per month for financially independant EU citizens),

For the first 3 months you should be alright anyway aslong as you don't become a financial burden to the authorities,giving you time find work if financially independant is not an option. Once there you'd need to tackle Spanish bureacracy discribed above, but this might be more straightfoward if an experienced source explains it and I doubt you'd need to know everything in advance but having a general idea of the procedures certainly won't harm your cause.

The theory remains simple: move there, don't be a burden to the Spanish authorities, register in a townhall, register with immigration, register your family members, settle in perhaps later on move to the UK or just stay in Spain if it suits you better.