Thailand, Morality, ethics and me

[n210mp]

This is not a Thai bashing thread but a genuine desire to understand.

just what it is that makes on the one hand Thai people the nicest people I have ever had the good luck to meet up with and on the other hand and i do speak in a general and not specific way that as a rule Thailand is morally and ethically bankrupt from the top to the bottom.

On a one to one basis I get along very most of the Thai folk that I meet up with but am at a loss that they accept without any complaint the outrageous corruption endemic in Thai society.

I could go on and give examples but I am sure that most of you will understand where it is I am coming from.

[georgemandm]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

[CharlieH]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

[nidieunimaitre]

In my younger days, my homecountry was extremely corrupt, and vote buying was normal.

But everybody tells me that people were so much nicer then?! Yet they put up with that situation.

Perhaps it is just natural evolution of human society: when society becomes more democratic, people become more individualist.

Thailand is in the middle of a transition, from backward to modern.

Some people / institutions / habits change faster than others, resulting in much confusion.

[HeijoshinCool]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

.

Nice analogy.

[nidieunimaitre]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

I agree that different cultures can have perfectly valid different norms.

f ex who should look after old or handicapped people? Their family or their government or private organisations?

But I think that there is a limit, and that we should not become completely relativists / nihilists.

Of course it is extremely tricky to compare cultures, as we all tend to make judgements based on our own norms.

Ex Absurdo: if all cultures are equal, then European culture of the year 1.000 is equal to European culture of the year 2.000?

In my opinion there is no reason to accept corruption as part of a culture. Corruption is morally and practically wrong.

[Aussieroaming]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

[n210mp]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

So early in the thread and already a poster who doesn't read the OP thoroughly.

You are so far off the mark in your response that I thought it prudent not to answer but now and again I feel the need to say something to inane comments like yours.

Your inability to read what I writ doesn't surprise me at all but to actually respond in the manner that you did beggars belief.

For Gods sake read the post properly then read it again and then a third time and then define where, in what phrase or paragraph I was Thai bashing.

In the meantime telling someone to bog off back to their own country because you may not agree with their sentiment is like taking your bat and ball home, in other words very childish!

Now please think about what I am saying and if there is even the slightest accuracy in what I have said then and come back with a sensible and interesting reply.

Like for instance you could have made a comment like; the Thai people are so brainwashed that they do not have that sense of "empowerment" that we from the West or those in other SEA have in regard to these matters.

In other words am looking at why and I take the evolutionary process in consideration why after such a long time of "fraternisation" with the West and all of its contribution to Thai society they still havnt evolved like say Singapore , Japan or Korea.

I look forward to your answer to the points that I have raised

Edited March 25, 2015 by n210mp

[nidieunimaitre]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

Opinion polls suggest otherwise.

And yes of course there IS a minority that is fed up with the endemic corruption.

As I said, Thailand is making a leap forwards, but there are quick and slow jumpers.

[Rancid]

In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

[nidieunimaitre]

In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

You might want to google William Godwin.......

[JohnnyJazz]

What is corruption and what is payment for service rendered ? When you send something by mail you pay the price according to the weight, distance etc .... If you want faster delivery you pay extra. Nothing wrong with that.

Then Thai don't see the law as we see it. Fairness, or the idea they have of fairness, is important for the Thais but the law is just seen as guidance. As long as nobody get hurt or disadvantaged in the process, it's no big deal to break the law.

The problem is we foreigner have a too narrow definition of the law. For Thai people what we call corruption is just helping friends and friends of friends and thanking friends for the help given. Harmony is the society is so much more important than blindly following inadequate regulation don't you think ?

[redandyellow]

The Thai paradigm ( nice people, with an utterly corrupt society from top to bottom) is a veritable paradox of herculean proportions, "over the top," and world class too - for good measure..

[redandyellow]

The Thai paradigm ( nice people, with an utterly corrupt society from top to bottom) is a veritable paradox of herculean proportions, "over the top," and world class too - for good measure..

But why the gigantic paradox? It was surely formed in a type of perfect "storm," with concrete reasons, and some unknown ingredients. One could speculate at length about the fact that Thailand (Siam) was never colonized by European powers, instead preferring to let European powers "assimilate," or whittle away Thai land, in order to appease France and Britain, in Cambodia - Laos - Vietnam and Burma respectively. Today, Thailand resembles the heart of an artichoke plant, with the "leaves" now belonging to the aforementioned four countries, and the Mekong no longer forms logical borders.

That the country was never colonized has had consequences - both good and bad.To peel back the myriad of onion layers piece by piece is key, in part to solving the mystery of the paradox.

[Cypress Hill]

Good ol' georgemandm . . . "Whereustay" and "Sandman77" rolled into one

[redandyellow]

Good ol' georgemandm . . . "Whereustay" and "Sandman77" rolled into one

Let me guess..george is a no nonsense blue collar guy?

They've (bovine humans) been trying to sort out their differences in the parking lot for 10,000 years, with clubs, spears, knives and fists, and it ain't working.

Another tactic perhaps, like tact?

[kannot]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

[kannot]

What is corruption and what is payment for service rendered ? When you send something by mail you pay the price according to the weight, distance etc .... If you want faster delivery you pay extra. Nothing wrong with that.

Then Thai don't see the law as we see it. Fairness, or the idea they have of fairness, is important for the Thais but the law is just seen as guidance. As long as nobody get hurt or disadvantaged in the process, it's no big deal to break the law.

The problem is we foreigner have a too narrow definition of the law. For Thai people what we call corruption is just helping friends and friends of friends and thanking friends for the help given. Harmony is the society is so much more important than blindly following inadequate regulation don't you think ?

No, especially when Mr Ferrari <deleted> has just ploughed through Mr plod

Edited March 25, 2015 by kannot

[Berkshire]

OP, first you say "This is not a Thai bashing thread," then you go on to say "Thailand is morally and ethically bankrupt from the top to the bottom." That's quite a cop-out. At least be honest about it.

You're demonstrating exactly what Rancid explained. In the west, corruption occurs but it's much more sophisticated so the sheep can sleep at nights. It's about appearances while in Thailand, it's more out in the open. You're bashing Thailand, but hiding behind this "desire to understand" nonsense. How about display a bit of intellectual honesty?

Edited March 25, 2015 by Berkshire

[malt25]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

So early in the thread and already a poster who doesn't read the OP thoroughly.

You are so far off the mark in your response that I thought it prudent not to answer but now and again I feel the need to say something to inane comments like yours.

Your inability to read what I writ doesn't surprise me at all but to actually respond in the manner that you did beggars belief.

For Gods sake read the post properly then read it again and then a third time and then define where, in what phrase or paragraph I was Thai bashing.

In the meantime telling someone to bog off back to their own country because you may not agree with their sentiment is like taking your bat and ball home, in other words very childish!

Now please think about what I am saying and if there is even the slightest accuracy in what I have said then and come back with a sensible and interesting reply.

Like for instance you could have made a comment like; the Thai people are so brainwashed that they do not have that sense of "empowerment" that we from the West or those in other SEA have in regard to these matters.

In other words am looking at why and I take the evolutionary process in consideration why after such a long time of "fraternisation" with the West and all of its contribution to Thai society they still havnt evolved like say Singapore , Japan or Korea.

I look forward to your answer to the points that I have raised

OP, don't take any notice of George. George has a somewhat warped sense of humor & often posts nonsense replies to valid posts. He can be, when the mood takes him, write sense & in extreme cases even be literate.

He baited you with the desired result.... you took the bait hook, line & sinker.

Not sure what really motivates him. He probably pulled the wings of flies when he was a kid to get his jollies.

Cheers..... Mal.

[jerojero]

Good and bad everywhere. But face skews things a bit more in LOS.... Save face, lie excessively if necessary.

[Laughing Gravy]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

Opinion polls suggest otherwise.

And yes of course there IS a minority that is fed up with the endemic corruption.

As I said, Thailand is making a leap forwards, but there are quick and slow jumpers.

I would have to disagree Thailand is not making leap forwards, leap backwards maybe.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Laughing Gravy

[CaptHaddock]

In the West our societies are run by criminal banking cartels & their Central banks, they buy governments and are above the law. Conveniently they also own indirectly the media so you certainly never hear about it, most of the corruption is at the very top. Most people are completely oblivious to the big picture as they indulge in the provided bread & circuses.

In Thailand the corruption is more obvious as top to bottom scramble for their share of the pie.

In Thailand politicians pay voters directly for votes, in the West the wealthy finance advertising campaigns for their stooges for the same outcome. At least here they know they've been bought, in the West the welfare handouts are the same thing but people don't even know they've been bought.

In Thailand the wealthy are above the law, the West is the same but the population seems largely unaware as the odd nobody is thrown to the sharks.

Thailand is just human nature on display in its raw form without the media manipulation pretending it is otherwise. Average people just adapt to the rules of the system in play.

This is exactly the point. I explain to my Thai friends that the US, for example, probably has more corruption than Thailand, but it's not at the street level, so to speak. The cop who stops you for speeding is probably not looking for a bribe and it would be very dangerous to offer him one. Nevertheless, the political system is driven by corruption on a vast scale. Here's just one example. Before Dick Cheney ran for Vice President with Bush in 2000, he was the president of Halliburton, a major supplier of oilfield services to the oil industry. During his tenure running Halliburton the company bought another company, a rival in the same oilfield services business called "Dresser Industries." The combined companies would become the largest provider of services to the oil industry in the world. After acquiring Dresser Cheney plundered the pension plan of a Dresser unit called Dresser-Rand resulting in loss of pension benefits to workers originally covered under the plan amounting to $25 million. When Cheney left his job at Halliburton to become VP of the US the Halliburton board in gratitude voted to award him an early retirement pension, for which he had not qualified, that was worth $37 million.

But that's just the warmup to the corruption story. In an economy the size of the US, sums like $37 million are not so important even if the corrupt acts are outrageous. As Vice President Cheney pushed for and got the illegal war in Iraq based on fraudulent claims about Iraq's military capabilities and intentions. During the ten years beginning in 2003, the single company that received the most US government contracts in Iraq was Kellog, Brown and Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton until it was sold off in 2007. The total value of the contracts was $39 billion, some of which were awarded without competitive bidding.

Total cost estimates of the Iraq war range from $1 Trillion to $3 Trillion. The estimated value of the annual oil production in Iraq before Cheney's war began was $15 billion per year.

That's how corruption works in the US. The average voter can't comprehend that ruinous wars that end in military failure come about to enable war-profiteering of companies and their stooges.

Edited March 26, 2015 by CaptHaddock

[Holdfast72]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

Exactly...

However, there is a cure... visit/do business in Viet Nam. They make the Thais look like amateurs.

I don't even notice corruption in Thailand anymore.

I am also under no illusions there's another country somewhere that makes the Vietnamese look like amateurs.

[lostmebike]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

[oneday]

Not sure we're you come from back in my country we have good and bad people and it is the same here good and bad you come to thailand to have fun and not work out how the country is run and if you don't like not saying you , but a lot on this forum TV need to look at there selves and stop thai bashing I am sick of it here on TV you get some real good reading but you get to much thai bashing and it should stop if you don't like it here get out and go back home to your country.

...and we who see the truth are sick and tired of you people who think Thai people are just wonderful lovey dovey people with zero faults and can do no wrong.

Many Thai people LIE with incredible ease and feel absolutely no guilt about it and it doesn't even seem to matter if the person they are lying to knows it.. And of course there are liars in every country in the world...hell we all lie to one extent or another, but not like Thai people do. This is part of their culture or physic makeup and part and parcel why they accept, not necessarily like, but somewhat accept corruption. Corruption always has been and, in their minds, always will be, and this attitude has seeped into many Thai people's personal ethics or lack thereof.

Yes, of course, there are good and bad people in all countries and each country has their faults, but in Thailand a huge portion of the population has no trouble lying. It's so bad, that when we ask a store clerk, on the phone, if they have something in stock and (this is common) their answer comes back in 1 second flat, "No have", we know without a doubt they did not even bother to look because they are basically lazy. Most store clerks fumble around when you ask them for help. I can count on one hand the store clerks I've met that are truly helpful and knowledgeable. I DO NOT see that much lack of competence in my country and unfortunately it's due to a built-in lack of ethic and poor education. Even my GF sister is lazy and it really ticks my GF off and strains their relationship. On the other hand, my GF is hard working, honest and a great person.

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This country is a country of extremes. As bad as many people here are at lying and laziness, I have met some of the best people in the world here (SEE, NOT THAI BASHING, BUT BEING REAL). The builder who built our house and just about of the workers on the house were better than most I could hope to hire in my own country. Our builder was and is incredible. My GF's father is the sweetest, humblest man I've ever met. He is generous to a fault; everyone around him loves him...and there are many Thai people like this. The people building our wall are very nice people, very competent at their job and hard working, but at one point even they LIED to us and we knew it and they knew it.

It's a different attitude and extreme swings in ethics from one person to the next and so many that lie. In the tourist cities, there are so many that never crack a smile all day long and even if you try to get them to smile they don't. I don't see this attitude too much outside the tourist areas because they haven't been influenced by bad tourists. The problem is, once these people have their opinion of tourists formed, it is set in stone and applied with a broad brush to all tourists.

So when I meet a bad Thai, an unfriendly Thai, a Thai who lies or has any other bad characteristic I don't ignore it or dwell on it, unless it's really bad, but after a while it starts to really eat away at a lot of us. If you are the kind of person who can be lied to, get really bad service and deal with unfriendly people who never smile than you are simply a better person than many of us and more power to you, but allow us our observations which are based on REAL interactions with REAL Thai people. We don't make this up.

When Thai people are good they can be much better than most of us or the people in our own countries, but when the are bad...

I have lived here 6 years so I have some experience.

[ggt]

If you were brought up in a cesspool...after a while you do not smell it anymore...outsiders do...but not you because the stench is everywhere all the time...

[MaeJoMTB]

Can't help thinking selling your daughters into prostitution and living off their earnings is wrong.

Guess I'm just hopelessly old fashioned.

[micmichd]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

I agree that different cultures can have perfectly valid different norms.

f ex who should look after old or handicapped people? Their family or their government or private organisations?

But I think that there is a limit, and that we should not become completely relativists / nihilists.

Of course it is extremely tricky to compare cultures, as we all tend to make judgements based on our own norms.

Ex Absurdo: if all cultures are equal, then European culture of the year 1.000 is equal to European culture of the year 2.000?

In my opinion there is no reason to accept corruption as part of a culture. Corruption is morally and practically wrong.

I'm one of these cultural relativists. I'm (British) German by birth, and I never fit into any mainstream Farang value systems. After being on the road in Asia for over a year in 1969/70, I decided that Asian culture is preferably to European culture.

I have always seen European culture with the eyes of a foreigner ever since.

This doesn't mean that I am a nihilist.

I know quite well that everyone needs a cognitive frame of unquestionable beliefs and values in order not to run completely mad.

My cognitive frame is surely rather Buddhist than Christian.

It is also rather scientific than Christian. In fact I left church at the age of 14 because of the biological impossibility that a virgin could be pregnant (which they would force me to believe)

Buddhism is more realistic in this matter.

Of course I'm aware that Buddhism also has a core of norms that cannot be logically proven to be false or true. Even mathematical logic itself has a logical limit itself, according to the Goedel theorem.

I believe that Buddhism is superior because it has a wider range of understanding.

You can understand Farang culture from Buddhism, but not vice versa.

Edited March 26, 2015 by micmichd

[hdkane]

Quit generalizing because the corruption isn't endemic...lots of Thai people aren't corrupt and don't condone corruption.

Please provide examples...because to be absolutely truthful, I have never once encountered a Thai person that did not condone corruption...while they may object to it, they most often participate and always condone it...