Thailand, Morality, ethics and me

[lostmebike]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

I'll bet the OP is trying to claim that he's as pure as the driven snow. It's called lying to oneself.

Agreed.

I can sort of understand his gripe about corruption but it`s evident in all countries, may be in different guises but it`s still there.

However, who hasn`t benefited from `knowing someone` or `paying extra` for personal gain whilst here?

Corruption is even more evident in developing countries and the `squeaky clean`would be better off admitting this before laying roots in said developing places.

[pendingo]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

I'll bet the OP is trying to claim that he's as pure as the driven snow. It's called lying to oneself.

Absolutely Berkshire, I'm whiter than white.

No other claims on my part.

I just see the world for what it is and don't need to lie to myself about it.

Please read my post again.

[nidieunimaitre]

I have never seen so much lack of competence in services like in Germany.

Lying might be socially acceptable when truth (honesty) would hurt too much.

You can kill someone with telling the truth.

So you left Germany, came to Thailand, and burned your German passport?

A man of principles, congratulations!

[pendingo]

My apologies if I have ruffled a few feathers on this forum.

It's just that I was agreeing with quite a few OP's that corruption is a world wide problem not just with Thailand.

No way was I trying to make out how squeaky clean I am.

There are things I've done and said in the past which I am not proud of.

I can only use the time I have left to make up for it one way or another.

[dotpoom]

I'd like to know if there is any place on this planet where corruption does not exist....when the rich are getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Where corporations own the politicians making greed and money the driving force. Where there are only three classes of people...Class 1..The rich....Class 2...the people who carry out their orders...and Class 3.....the poor, who pay for everything.

[NoshowJones]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

I agree that different cultures can have perfectly valid different norms.

f ex who should look after old or handicapped people? Their family or their government or private organisations?

But I think that there is a limit, and that we should not become completely relativists / nihilists.

Of course it is extremely tricky to compare cultures, as we all tend to make judgements based on our own norms.

Ex Absurdo: if all cultures are equal, then European culture of the year 1.000 is equal to European culture of the year 2.000?

In my opinion there is no reason to accept corruption as part of a culture. Corruption is morally and practically wrong.

There will always be corruption here, just accept it and look at ways to use it to your own advantage.

All the government departments here that you care to name are gaining from corruption in some way, it's

unlikely they will be upset if you gain from it.

There are loads of examples, I'll name one, you get caught speeding, the cop "fines" you 300Bt, you know

you are guilty, then you have the choice, pay the cop the 300Bt and then drive away, or find the police station

with your receipt and pay it there. If you are honest, what would you do?

[NoshowJones]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

Doesn't the UK run on greed, according to what I think is a very true post from a poster, America also runs on greed.

Greed and Capitalism is rife everywhere, you would be hard pushed to find anywhere it isn't.

[pendingo]

Every country in the world has its own corruption, in some its the police force in others the banksters and in others the army. In Thailand it is multilayered and it will take generations to cleanup. The only problem is that if you have an honest politician that tries to clean up corruption he would be eliminated asap by either the elites/army or the mafia. Sometimes a building gets so rotten that you can't fix it, its just better to knock it down and start from scratch.

It happens in UK and US in particular. The good politicians who make an effort to stand up against corruption may be eliminated one way or another but with more subtlety either by some kind of defamation eg at best any dirt that can be dug up against them or at worst some kind of fatal accident or medical condition. Particularly to the ones who have come close to some wrongdoing which could upset the apple cart if it is exposed.

Also look what happens to whistle-blowers who dare to stick their heads above the parapet after exposing what has been happening in their particular organisation.

Never ceases to amaze me how some people don't get it.

Corruption has been going on for thousands of years in "civilised" human society and is inbred in all of us no matter what part of the globe we live in.

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

I singled out the UK and the US here in the first part of my comment (notwithstanding the rest of the world is any less corrupt) because I consider they are past masters at corruption especially at corporate level.

[nidieunimaitre]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

I agree that different cultures can have perfectly valid different norms.

f ex who should look after old or handicapped people? Their family or their government or private organisations?

But I think that there is a limit, and that we should not become completely relativists / nihilists.

Of course it is extremely tricky to compare cultures, as we all tend to make judgements based on our own norms.

Ex Absurdo: if all cultures are equal, then European culture of the year 1.000 is equal to European culture of the year 2.000?

In my opinion there is no reason to accept corruption as part of a culture. Corruption is morally and practically wrong.

There will always be corruption here, just accept it and look at ways to use it to your own advantage.

All the government departments here that you care to name are gaining from corruption in some way, it's

unlikely they will be upset if you gain from it.

There are loads of examples, I'll name one, you get caught speeding, the cop "fines" you 300Bt, you know

you are guilty, then you have the choice, pay the cop the 300Bt and then drive away, or find the police station

with your receipt and pay it there. If you are honest, what would you do?

You and I are clearly very different people.

1/ I never get caught speeding, because I do not speed, so your question is irrelevant.

2/ I will never use corruption to my advantage, I spent my youth in a very corrupt country, but never gave in, and I will not change in my old age in Thailand.

3/ Individuals may occasionally gain from corruption, but in the end corruption is economically and of course morally a mistake.

4/ I suspect that you condone corruption only because you have an above average income and just like the Thai HISO, you think that money outclasses morality.

Thais that condone corruption can blame the low Thai educational standards, I wonder what you could blame. Are you of Irish descent perhaps? (that would be a total downer for me, in my youth I joined demonstrations against the British colonialism in Ireland).

[Berkshire]

Thailand runs on fear, disagree end up with problem sometimes dead.

Don`t forget greed.

Doesn't the UK run on greed, according to what I think is a very true post from a poster, America also runs on greed.

Greed and Capitalism is rife everywhere, you would be hard pushed to find anywhere it isn't.

Exactly. Greed is almost a requirement of capitalism. Or do these guys not even understand the country from which they come from?

[micmichd]

I have never seen so much lack of competence in services like in Germany.

Lying might be socially acceptable when truth (honesty) would hurt too much.

You can kill someone with telling the truth.

So you left Germany, came to Thailand, and burned your German passport?

A man of principles, congratulations!

Unfortunately I still need my German passport for travelling and extension of stay in Thailand. Still.

[micmichd]

Maybe, and in many cases, you come from a society where the rules are similar to playing chess, and you have entered a society that has no idea of chess, but only checkers.

The point being, different people, culture, society, and you need in many instances to forget about what you have been taught as "normal" or even acceptable.

That's not to say that its wrong, nor right, its just not the same and making adjustments to the differences is fraught with misunderstandings and confusion as to what you know as "the norm" and what your surroundings dictates is "the norm".

I agree that different cultures can have perfectly valid different norms.

f ex who should look after old or handicapped people? Their family or their government or private organisations?

But I think that there is a limit, and that we should not become completely relativists / nihilists.

Of course it is extremely tricky to compare cultures, as we all tend to make judgements based on our own norms.

Ex Absurdo: if all cultures are equal, then European culture of the year 1.000 is equal to European culture of the year 2.000?

In my opinion there is no reason to accept corruption as part of a culture. Corruption is morally and practically wrong.

There will always be corruption here, just accept it and look at ways to use it to your own advantage.

All the government departments here that you care to name are gaining from corruption in some way, it's

unlikely they will be upset if you gain from it.

There are loads of examples, I'll name one, you get caught speeding, the cop "fines" you 300Bt, you know

you are guilty, then you have the choice, pay the cop the 300Bt and then drive away, or find the police station

with your receipt and pay it there. If you are honest, what would you do?

[micmichd]

I'm not speeding, but I can imagine emergency situations where this could change.

I would pay the fine without much hesitation.

[nidieunimaitre]

I'm not speeding, but I can imagine emergency situations where this could change.

I would pay the fine without much hesitation.

Stay on topic please.

Would you pay the fine or would you pay the bribe?

[MaeJoMTB]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

[nidieunimaitre]

I have never seen so much lack of competence in services like in Germany.

Lying might be socially acceptable when truth (honesty) would hurt too much.

You can kill someone with telling the truth.

So you left Germany, came to Thailand, and burned your German passport?

A man of principles, congratulations!

Unfortunately I still need my German passport for travelling and extension of stay in Thailand. Still.

I understand that, a man needs a passport.

But surely, you will refuse the pension that Nanny State Germany will pay you?

I admire your principles.

[Tingtau]

The following is not intended as a "knock" against the O/P in any way, shape or form...I believe that his/her post poses a valid question. The following was penned by me in response to comments made on f/b and I post it here in the hopes that it may provide some help in answering the O/P's legitimate question.

"I have heard so many comments ("ad nauseum" for me at least) from non-Thais in which they describe Thais as “racist” and that Thailand treats all non-Thais as unwanted (“except for our money”) outsiders! In response, I felt driven to pen the following comment (I apolgize in advance for its length):
Perhaps these comments result from unfortunate experiences involving difficulties which arose out of a communication breakdown, a lack of understanding of a certain taboo in Thai“culture” or “custom”, or perhaps it was simply due to the perception that one’s self-annointed place on the Ladder of Hierarchal Importance” was not duly recognized to his or her satisfaction. Whatever the causes, I have my own feelings as to why we might feel “unwanted’ and these feelings arise from a couple of questions and observations.
My first question……”If we truly want to be accepted, would you not think it reasonable that learning the language to be an expectation”. And I don’t mean simply being able to say “Sawadee khrap/ka (Hello)” or “Khon bia eek duan (Another beer please) “. I mean being able to, at the very least, show a willingness and desire to become conversant. Think of your own home country and any foreigner wanting to be “assimilated” there and given the privileges which you enjoy! What would be one of the first hoop through which you would want that person to pass? If you said “have lots of money”….okay, partially true inasmuch as you would expect NOT to have to support that person, but otherwise (…..GONG…) Wrong!! If you said “to be able to speak our language”, understand our customs and history (DING, DING , DING) Right!! Why would anyone expect NOT to be required to be able to speak conversationally, to know our customs and at least know something of our history?

A second and third question…. “How much do I, the foreigner, know about the history of Thailand?” or its culture…and “Why should this be important?” Well, with respect to history…. if you are a country who has never suffered invasion by other countries, you probably feel relatively safe and secure in your identity. So secure that you are willing to accede to “outsiders” requests/demands for some changes to be made to your country’s laws/regulations in order to accommodate the “outsider”. And most will not complain or rise up, until the very fabric of what you believe to be your country’s identity, is being so badly torn as to threaten your perception of that identity. Then look at how you feel about your countries “benevolent attitude toward immigrants”!! Canadians, Americans, Britons, Australians….how do you feel about “outsiders’ currently? Still agree with throwing out the welcoming mat for any and all without restrictions?

Thailand, unlike the countries from whence the complainers most often come, has suffered invasion and attempts to subjugate its citizens on countless occasions over the centuries. Why then, should it not be reasonable for the Thai government of today, to be extremely protective of its sovereignty? Unfortunately, for those of us who have a genuine desire to give our loyalty to, and be accepted by, Thailand the country, this has resulted in all manner of roadblocks and seeming deliberate efforts to make us feel unwanted (“except for our money”).
As to culture....you may think that “culture” isn’t that big an issue in your own home country…unless you have experienced or are experiencing the “invasion” of a people whose culture is in seeming polar opposition and a threat to your own. Think of ‘common law”, “equal rights for all”, “freedom of speech, religion” …the list goes on and on…..then think of “shariah law”, “restricted female rights”, “lashes and prison terms for simply asking for freedom of speech”, “lashes, prison and death sentences for so-called apostasy”….the list goes on and on. Think of those issues and then tell me that knowledge of “culture” is not important!

I see Thailand, not as a racist country or unwelcoming country, but rather as a country whose historical roots and experiences has led to the current “circle the wagons” attitude toward the “foreigner”. Any change, if indeed change is to take place, will require time. Also needed is a clear demonstration of the “foreigners” willingness to learn the language, history, customs, and culture. Perhaps, both the most important and difficult thing we must accomplish, is to instill in the minds of the Thai people and its government, the confidence that we are not here to take advantage of this wonderful country or its people, but wish only to be assimilated into the country. Forming and living in enclaves comprised solely of one’s home countrymen; refusing to make the effort to learn the language and/or adapt to this country’s ways; failing to show a willingness to make sincere attempts to understand the Thai as a people; showing a disrespect for its King and/or government….and the list goes on and on……all of these things will deny any possibility for such change."

I subsequently received responses to this ‘blog’ which made a number of allegations, to which I responded as follows:

1. Service at 7/11 or gas station Thais served before falang
   I have used the services of gas stations, 7/11s, banks, etc and never have I had the attendant deliberately pass over me to serve a Thai. Having said that, I can attest to the fact that it would seem that “lining up”, “queuing” for anything unless it is a military exercise, is an unlearned behaviour for many. The consequence is that, if you are not pro-active and watchful, you WILL have some Thais blissfully disregard the fact that you were there first and walk to the head of the line. I have seen this done where the person whose position being usurped was another Thai.
   
   2. Traffic confrontations – changing of rules for non-Thai in order to charge money
   I, personally, have never experienced this type of treatment. I have heard many tell stories about it, so I cannot deny that it may take place. Probably true….to what extent, again, I don’t know. That SOME Thai police hold racist views toward the farang, I have no doubt. To be deplored but name me a country where this is not true! The best defence would be to learn the language. Amazing how fairly one can suddenly be treated if the intended victim is able to clearly communicate and expose the actions of the person in power as unjust! Added comment…the average Thai traffic cop, as I understand it, earns no more than 13,000฿ per month. In fact, while I have difficulty in accepting their figures as anywhere near current, according to a report on the Thailandguru website, regular police may only earn less than 6,000฿ per month, possibly as low as 4,500฿!!!
   See - http://www.thailandguru.com/thailand-tourist-police.html Can anyone wonder at the practice of “tea money”, which is still a practice in all avenues of government, existing in the policing?
   http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/print.php?id=3252
   Who would be the most natural person to obtain this “tea money”…..certainly not the
   Thai earning 300฿.
   While not condoning the practice, I understand why it exists and no longer see it in the
   same light as I would should it involve a copper in Canada who, just having joined last
   month is earning a salary of over $12,000 (312,000฿) monthly, even given the
   difference in cost of living!!
   
   3. Traffic confrontations – witnesses siding with Thai over non-Thai’s claim to be not at fault.
   Again, as in #2, I have never experienced this…but mind you, while having had a total of two accidents during my time in Thailand, neither ones which involved an investigation and/or interviewing of witnesses.
   I would like to think that given a situation where absolutely no doubt as to who was at fault was the case, that blatant lies would not be told. However, as can be demonstrated clinically, everyone sees things, not as a camera sees them, but rather through their brain processing what has been seen through a multi-faceted lens which, in addition to their eye, includes past experiences, biases, assumptions…a multitude of factors. All of this occurring in a split second and resulting in differing interpretations of what took place, as opposed to what the video camera would show. An interesting read on this can be found at http://agora.stanford.edu/.../Issue%20One/fisher&tversky.htm
   End result: Biased recollection or interpretation, but not, I would suggest, always or even most often, racism.
   
   4. Child born to mixed couple (Thai-Falang) not given Thai birth certificate
   I can attest from personal knowledge that this is absolute fiction! I have a Falang friend who is married to a Thai citizen and their child was issued a Thai birth certificate. To get the answer for a Thai-nonThai unmarried couple situation, I have put the question to Ask a Lawyer on the ThaiVisa forum but I really cannot see there being any difference insofar as issuance of a Thai birth certificate. Is it possible that this belief has somehow evolved from the fact that, unlike Canada (and possibly the same in USA, UK, Australia) where people, up until at least 2005 that I know of, would attempt to coincide their due delivery date with a visit to friends and/or family. By doing so, automatically the child; no matter what the citizenship of his/her parents, automatically had Canadian citizenship status and accompanying Canadian birth certificate. !! I suspect that this is not the case in Thailand!

5. Park and pier fees
I know this to be true and I can understand the knee-jerk reaction by those of us raised where prices for goods and services, by law must be equal for all persons. Exception: Employees who get a discount..sometimes as high as 50%. Is one example, but there are others. What’s the saying….All people are equal, just some people are more equal than others!” It should also be noted that a number of countries have already instituted a “sliding scale” when penalizing people for certain traffic infractions and arguments are being made for its inception in other countries.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/.../should_speeding_fines_be_based.html
http://www.refinery29.com/.../finland-speeding-ticket...
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/.../traffic-tickets-on.../
Not the same thing, you say? I beg to differ….the concept is the same…it’s the “who” being discriminated against that differs. Instead of “employee/general public”, “wealthy----poor”, here in Thailand it is the “perceived wealth” that is assigned to the falang. The average Thai will earn no more than 300฿ a day whereas the resident ex-pat , in order to satisfy immigration laws, must be able to show a monthly income of somewhere between 40,000 to 65,000฿…. or more than 4xs that of the average Thai. I know that this figure is very often (most often when it relates to, say, the average freelancing SCUBA instructor) much larger than actual fact, but as I said, it is the “perceived wealth” view that many, if not most. Thais have regarding a falang!
6. Farang racist in manner “they” use it
And finally this word “farang or falang” (I have heard and read the words of Thais who smilingly explain that “farang is the “falang” way of saying “falang”). I don’t see it as being a big deal!! Is it racist and/or derogatory to be called a farang/falang? Well, it simply means “foreignor” which is what we falangs are! I don’t get “shivers of delight” running up and down my spine when hearing myself being called that, but neither do I (anymore) get hot flashes in my cranial vault. I suppose that since it is respectful to refer to someone as Khun (add whatever proper name is held) that, as opposed to not calling me Khun Bruce, perhaps I would feel better if someone said Khun Falang in addressing me. But not a big deal! Perception is the key. If your state of mind perceives it to be derogatory, well, that’s how you will consider it! I don’t! I choose to think of it as being similar to someone saying “Hey Canuck, Yank, Ozzie…oh, you’re from New Zealand….okay, hey, Kiwi…..you seem like a rum chap, come over and join us for beer, why don’tcha!!” Life’s too short to piss about on the small stuff. Maybe the guy you’re hearing using the term IS being derogatory! So what!! Prove to him (and others) that he’s wrong…that you are just an “average Joe” not unlike himself, that you respect his right to have negative thoughts about you, but that they really aren’t deserved! Unless he is an out and out arse (in which case, what do you care what he thinks), he probably is going to have second and third thoughts. I seen and had it happen, not just here in Thailand, but elsewhere in the world.

Are there some ‘racist’ Thais? Are there some racists in any given country? 55, does the bear “poop” in the woods? Sure…sure… and sure! Is Thailand a racist country? Does Thailand “treat all non-Thais as unwanted”? Is it impossible for the suspicious attitudes of some Thais to be changed? No, no, and no…..not in my book!! Just as I choose always to see the glass “half full” rather than “half empty”, I choose to see the majority “ good” in this country rather than dwell on the minority “bad”!

[micmichd]

I'm not speeding, but I can imagine emergency situations where this could change.

I would pay the fine without much hesitation.

Stay on topic please.

Would you pay the fine or would you pay the bribe?

[micmichd]

Depends.

When in a hurry, I would pay without waiting for a receipt. So, I would pay the bribe then.

[micmichd]

I have never seen so much lack of competence in services like in Germany.

Lying might be socially acceptable when truth (honesty) would hurt too much.

You can kill someone with telling the truth.

So you left Germany, came to Thailand, and burned your German passport?

A man of principles, congratulations!

Unfortunately I still need my German passport for travelling and extension of stay in Thailand. Still.

I understand that, a man needs a passport.

But surely, you will refuse the pension that Nanny State Germany will pay you?

I admire your principles.

[micmichd]

I'm not on welfare. I have already worked for the pensions I get back now, they are my property. Of course, I will not refuse to take back my property.

Edited March 26, 2015 by micmichd

[thaibeachlovers]

In my younger days, my homecountry was extremely corrupt, and vote buying was normal.

But everybody tells me that people were so much nicer then?! Yet they put up with that situation.

Perhaps it is just natural evolution of human society: when society becomes more democratic, people become more individualist.

Thailand is in the middle of a transition, from backward to modern.

Some people / institutions / habits change faster than others, resulting in much confusion.

My country was not at all corrupt when I was a nipper, but the people were pretty genuine.

As the years have passed, the government has become corrupt and the people tend to be worshipping money and not so nice.

[MaeJoMTB]

In my younger days, my homecountry was extremely corrupt, and vote buying was normal.

But everybody tells me that people were so much nicer then?! Yet they put up with that situation.

Perhaps it is just natural evolution of human society: when society becomes more democratic, people become more individualist.

Thailand is in the middle of a transition, from backward to modern.

Some people / institutions / habits change faster than others, resulting in much confusion.

I'm not convinced Thailand is advancing in any way.

Seems to be moving backwards if Prayut and the Thai authorities edicts on morality (and everything else) are anything to go by.

Stealing $$$$$s is OK, ruling by gun is OK, but girls wearing the uniform given to them at the motor show is criminal ..........

[nidieunimaitre]

I'm not on welfare. I have already worked for the pensions I get back now, they are my property. Of course, I will not refuse to take back my property.

I can not believe that a man with principles would ever pay tax / contributions for a pension system that was set up by the government.

Such a man would have left the Nanny State before ever contributing to this socialist system.

A man without principles, of course would whine & bash the nanny state when it suits him, and enjoy the benefits of that same nanny state when that suits him.

What about you?

Do you prefer government pensions and health care systems, (European nanny state style) or do you prefer to take care of yourself, (Thai - American style)?

Let me guess: you want the best of 2 worlds, first whinging in Germany (about Germany), and later whinging in Thailand (about Germany).

[Berkshire]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

[wileycoyote]

Que sera,sera

[MaeJoMTB]

How many people on this forum can say they are truly not corrupt?

Who on here has not lied or been economic with the truth for whatever reason?

I can honestly state I have never considered selling one of my family members for sex, either in marriage or to a brothel.

I wonder how many Thais can make that same claim.

I expect most posters on this forum can make that same claim.

Let's face it a bit of cheating in business is trivial compared to the national Thai prostitution game.

Are you saying you personally know Thai parents who have sold their children into prostitution? I don't know one. Who the heck are you hanging out with you sicko?

Do you view sinsot as not selling your children?

(My current wife was sold to a man for marriage at age 18 against her will, it's fairly common)

Edited March 26, 2015 by MaeJoMTB

[nidieunimaitre]

 

Que sera,sera

 

Thank you for NOT posting the link to that counter revolutionary silly song

[micmichd]

I'm not on welfare. I have already worked for the pensions I get back now, they are my property. Of course, I will not refuse to take back my property.

I can not believe that a man with principles would ever pay tax / contributions for a pension system that was set up by the government.

Such a man would have left the Nanny State before ever contributing to this socialist system.

A man without principles, of course would whine & bash the nanny state when it suits him, and enjoy the benefits of that same nanny state when that suits him.

What about you?

Do you prefer government pensions and health care systems, (European nanny state style) or do you prefer to take care of yourself, (Thai - American style)?

Let me guess: you want the best of 2 worlds, first whinging in Germany (about Germany), and later whinging in Thailand (about Germany).

[Derek M]

Interestingly, I once read that Lee Kwan Yew (I think!) attributed the success of Singapore and Hong Kong to the combination of British regard for the 'rule of law' and the Chinese work ethic. He saw the British as not having the same 'fire' to make money as the Chinese, but saw the Chinese as culturally too prone to 'going around the rules'. It's one explanation, at least..

At last......an informed, intelligent group of posters on TV! What a change from the usual Thai bashing dross that passes for debate on most of this BB.

Yes, the fact that Thailand has never been colonised certainly has an influence on the morals and ethics of the people, although the rule of law that was put in place by the British and others was to facilitate their plundering of the colonies rather than protect the rights of the local people.

There is a fine line as someone has suggested between paying a fair price for a service and corruption, but it is the institutionalised low level corruption (tea money to police and civil servants) that grates with our western culture as this just doesn't happen in the west. But these people are paid fair salaries in the west which does not seem to be the case here, can we really blame them for trying to make up for that with a little entrepreneurship?

Well one can have a sideline selling computers, rise to be police chief of a major city start their own brand of politics and run for PM...

cause a coup and get found guilty for abuse of power and becoming excessively rich while in office (or to that effect) turning yourself from millionaire to Billionaire in few short years

Oh wait..that already happened.

Sorry mate, defo have to agree to disagree tea money, bribe money to local police is wrong, just as wrong as it at the very higest level (Banksters!) often this type of corruption is not Robin Hood but but Robbing poorer/poorest to feed the poor defo not entrepreneurship, entrepreneurship would be investing their own money or borrowed money to make/invest in their own business. Even if it is pushing a mango cart by side of the road on their day off. Not putting on the uniform and collecting monthlies from local businesses or stopping cars/motorbikes on the road and pocketing the cash or planting drugs on a farang/farangs car/motorbike or colluding with Jet ski operators or karaoki bars and so on in various scams involved in.

Not having a law that is stricktly applied leads to a society that often cannot tell the difference between right and wrong. Here it's pretty much all of society can poorly differentiate between a sense of right or wrong, in the west it's the rich very hi so who have poor morals judgement and dificulty understanding rights and wrongs. Sadly in Farangland law is ignored or expensive lawyers get them off with what ever their wrong doings are.