Alone at controls, co-pilot sought to 'destroy' the plane

[StasD]

It seemes to me there is a new trend in civil air. I consider it would be better to go to Crimea next time by train

[Jip99]

Not just this topic but car/motorcycle crashes. They are not accidents. Murder, manslaughter maybe , but accidents can't be avoided. If a piece of tree blows into your bike or car , or a bird flies into your windscreen that is an accident. If a drunk runs you down or a pilot commits suicide it is not an accident.

Indeed.

This is quite simply, a case of mass murder.

The mass murder of 149 innocent people - for which Herr Lubitz will go down as the perpetrator of one of the most heinous crimes of the century.

[F4UCorsair]

How do they know he didn't have a freak medical event?

That may have also happened JT, but doesn't explain programming the auto pilot to descend nor locking the door, unless of course the event was one of mental confusion.. seems umlikely for my money though.

Edited March 27, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[steve187]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

According to pprune.org the copilot was "grounded" - apparently for a longer period - on medical grounds and chose to ignore it. It is said that he should not have flown on that day and instead have informed his employer. A torn up "sick note" for a period of time including that day was found when police searched his parents´ house where he was living.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2015-03-27/germanwings-co-pilot-had-sick-note-on-day-of-crash

edit: typo

further on in the attached clip at the 45 sec. mark about Lufthansa internal memos about the co-pilots mental state

[beechguy]

Guess you're one of those who believe that mental diseases are not curable.

Clearly not cured in the case of this pilot..........

To operate a high tech aircraft and be responsible for 150 human lives, I would expect the flight deck would comprise four crew, an engineer, a navigator, chief pilot and co pilot but obviously the flying public has been short changed and the aircraft industry has been exposed for what they are, an ever growing rabble of cost savers where money and profits over rule safety and commonsense, Screw you all !

What a load of nonsense, when was the last time you were in the cockpit of an aircraft, 1959?

[F4UCorsair]

The last i heard everyone wants air flights as cheap as possible and now with the fuel ciosts low, that's what we are getting. Good news, eh? Except the pilots are paid poorly so the job only attracts the mid to low range folks.

If we want the very best pilots the price for each seat will rise, significantly. Happy now?

Not true

Often pilots are recruited by the parent airline and farmed off to the subsidiary.

Also, because an aspiring pilot doesn't make the cut with the major and finds himself in the LCC subsidiary doesn't mean he wasn't good enough, just that there were better on the day of the selection. Airlines move on to a whole new group, and often age is part of the mix. The longer an airline can get out of training one person, the less goes on training costs, a large part of airline operating costs.

An example of that is an airline for which I flew, and many others I believe, only permitted maximum 28 days vacation at one time, because if a pilot was away for over 30 days, he needed to do a simulator session to again be current, and that involved two other pilots.

Pilots are no different from any other group in that the 'bell curve' applies...5% are guns, 5% struggle to meet the standard, and the rest fall into the average band.

The system is built around average people because there simply aren't enough aces.

If only aces were hired, airlines would only employ former fighter pilots (although I've seen some less than average from that lot), but fighter pilots don't generally make good airline pilots, too Iindependent, don't like team work, and are what Chuck Yeager called 'the right stuff', but it's not right for airline operations.

Edited March 27, 2015 by F4UCorsair

[Chicog]

Thanks to many posters for trying to define terrorism in answer to my question.

I'm truly grateful yet still confused. It appears the term is used today rather loosely, depending on individual points of view.

Violence/aggression to be considered terrorism (sorry for not directly quoting) must contain elements of

• political aims;
• higher cause;
• political agenda;

as opposed to murder/suicide case.

Without trying to discount the opinions quoted, it seems to me that the same action can be proclaimed either/or depending on our wish.

Say, I rob a bank and kill some people in the process. If I give the proceeds to my political party to buy arms - I am a terrorist. If I keep the money - I am a killer/robber? But the process and victims are the same.

A serial killer terrorizing his neighborhood is simply a killer as long as he does it because he likes to kill. But a killer using a bomb in a public place and blowing himself up is a terrorist because he simply likes to kill and hates people.

Now, back to our A320. 150 people killed. The perpetrator didn't say a word. He may be a terrorist. He may be a killer/suicide case. Same horrible result, just different name we assign to him.

Is there any difference? Does it really matter? I mean what's the difference if he didn't say a word, or had said "banzai", or "Allah Akbar" or "Hail Mary"?

I understand suicides. But usually they are alone. Dying is a lonely business. All the grieving stay back. All saying RIP also stay back. Why take 150 lives if he was not a terrorist?

All this really proves is that you do not understand the meaning of the word "terrorism".

Terrorism is commonly defined as violent acts (or the threat of violent acts) intended to create fear (terror), perpetrated for a religious, political, or ideological goal, and which deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians).

There is no evidence that he had any religious, political or idealogical goal; terrorists usually publicise these.

[manarak]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

According to the news, the torn up notes are sick notes where a doctor certifies that Lubitz is unfit for work.

He was apparently angry about this and tore up the notes.

The media says Lubitz hid his illness from the company.

Question: how is that even possible? shouldn't the doctor communicate directly with Germanwings?

I begin to see the link with the trade union and the requirement for pilots to *voluntarily* disclose any medical problems rather than doctors being required to report to airlines.

I suppose Lubitz' visits at the doctor were private and that the doctor was not affiliated or hired by Germanwings.

...

The trade union ("Vereinigung Cockpit") might have defended Lubitz in the past and even helped him to get a SIC, probably also defending his privacy regarding not reporting the medicals (conjecture).

Regarding Lubitz motivation, I'd say he was pissed off with the world.

It was his childhood dream to fly, but he had to interrupt his training for at least six months due to depression.

He passed his pilot qualification in 2008, yet because of his depression he had to work as a flight attendant for years, it probably felt as a demotion.

I can imagine how the other flight attendants who had no chance of ever becoming pilots treated him - they called him "Tomato Andy" because he often had to serve tomato juice which is a favorite among German passengers.

If he had reported the medicals, it would have meant either another demotion to flight attendant for some time or even the end of his career as a pilot alltogether.

So I guess he wanted to get even.

Edited March 27, 2015 by manarak

[manarak]

German press reports that Lubitz' medical records were beyond the company's doctors reach because of privacy laws.

[mauGR1]

German press reports that Lubitz' medical records were beyond the company's doctors reach because of privacy laws.

I guess everybody, me included, are still trying to come to terms with this unbelievable tragedy.

...But for sure, " Germanwings " and its doctors, and co-pilot Lubitz's private doctor have to carry part of the guilt for the horrible death of 149 innocents and the grief of thousands of relatives and friends.

It seems more and more people are going nuts in this difficult world, easy to predict that we are going to see more of this crazy stuff.

[Cpkt8]

Selfish bastard! May he burn in hell eternally!

[Diddl]

You are absolutely right “carter1882”. Yes, the airline has been very quick to reach a conclusion. Aren’t they always in such cases?

Everything on this forum is about the co-pilot. I sympathise with him and his family if he is innocent, as I do with everyone that died. Isn’t it wonderful how people can execute this man over and over and over again when they know nothing about the man! Talk about a lynch party! It’s quite barbaric and nothing has changed for thousands of years!

I have a question about something else for pilots and/or technical computer experts out there – Is it possible for a plane’s computer to be remotely controlled? Could the descent have been remotely controlled?

Please, please, please, I only want expert replies, not hearsay or beliefs.

[xavierr]

So far, none of the board racists have been calling it "catholicist terrorism." Come on, go ahead.

As for the pilot, for once I wish I'd believe in hell.

I'm sure the future will bring even more disturbing and confusing details about this event.

Hell is not enough

[ALFREDO]

You are absolutely right “carter1882”. Yes, the airline has been very quick to reach a conclusion. Aren’t they always in such cases?

Everything on this forum is about the co-pilot. I sympathise with him and his family if he is innocent, as I do with everyone that died. Isn’t it wonderful how people can execute this man over and over and over again when they know nothing about the man! Talk about a lynch party! It’s quite barbaric and nothing has changed for thousands of years!

I have a question about something else for pilots and/or technical computer experts out there – Is it possible for a plane’s computer to be remotely controlled? Could the descent have been remotely controlled?

Please, please, please, I only want expert replies, not hearsay or beliefs.

Conspiracy theorist?

[paully]

A rate of decent was chosen that didn't set off any alarms or warnings. The weather in the area was reportedly cloudy with scattered showers. Apart from those at the front, the bulk of the passengers would have been unaware of anything seriously wrong. The screams heard on the CVR in the final seconds is probably when the plane was low enough to clear the clouds and they suddenly realised they were flying into the mountains.

The weather was, reportedly, clear and certainly clear enough for those on board to see that they were descending far, far too close to the approaching mountains. The very fact that screams were picked up on the CVR in the cockpit merely indicates how very loud those final screams were, not that there was no alarm before this. Sorry, but imagining that those on board were fine until the last seconds is not likely. A horrible way to go.

[balo]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

According to the news, the torn up notes are sick notes where a doctor certifies that Lubitz is unfit for work.

He was apparently angry about this and tore up the notes.

The media says Lubitz hid his illness from the company.

Question: how is that even possible? shouldn't the doctor communicate directly with Germanwings?

This is very interesting , only 2 countries in Europe has a special privacy law so the employee working for a company can hide their medical records. Of course German wings probably will evaluate every pilot themselves and do mental tests but they do not have access to his private records.

In my native country Norway and also Sweden all doctors is required by law to report any medical condition of the pilots directly to the airlines. This is to prevent pilots from flying if they have symptoms of being sick. And it works , 45 pilots was reported last year in Scandinavia.

Germany needs to change this stupid law asap.

Edited March 27, 2015 by balo

[Jingthing]

My understanding is that the vast majority of people with clinical mental illness are not dangerous to others. This man assuming the conclusions are true not only killed all in the plane, his action will increase stigma against mental illness all over the world.

[Lissos]

Regarding Lubitz motivation, I'd say he was pissed off with the world.

Firstly, I do understand your post and that you are 'not' in any way diluting his choice to do what he did so this is not an attack.

All I can say is that I and many others have been mightily pissed off with the world before, have been suicidal once or several times in our lives, angry at people who wrecked our chances and our confidence etc. But a decision to take 150 petrified people of all ages into those final moments of 'pissed off with the world''ness, takes a unique kind of c**t in this world, the sort of one who doesn't even deserve a decent burial if you ask me. It is not my usual way to be like that, but even as a non relative of those on board this is bad enough. Imagining a family member on board? I can't even go there.

[cookee68]

Conclusion seems very hasty... is the French Prosecutor trying to clear his desk so he can have a long weekend???

Still more questions than answers.

The data recorder has not been recovered so far, this would show if the auto pilot had been engaged or reconfigured >3,000ft/min decent and heading (about) 025. (maybe the rate of decent had already been set and the co-pilot engaged the auto pilot not realising)???

If it was the co-pilots intention to kill so many people why did he not fly it in to the centre of a nearby city and kill more people???

More importantly why did he do it (if he did.)???

Why don't they have toilets inside the cockpit, so many why's?

[neverdie]

So sad. Such a tragedy.

[micmichd]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

According to the news, the torn up notes are sick notes where a doctor certifies that Lubitz is unfit for work.

He was apparently angry about this and tore up the notes.

The media says Lubitz hid his illness from the company.

Question: how is that even possible? shouldn't the doctor communicate directly with Germanwings?

This is very interesting , only 2 countries in Europe has a special privacy law so the employee working for a company can hide their medical records. Of course German wings probably will evaluate every pilot themselves and do mental tests but they do not have access to his private records.

In my native country Norway and also Sweden all doctors is required by law to report any medical condition of the pilots directly to the airlines. This is to prevent pilots from flying if they have symptoms of being sick. And it works , 45 pilots was reported last year in Scandinavia.

Germany needs to change this stupid law asap.

Obviously, Mr. Lubitz attended his private doctor for treatment, and he relied on privacy. Without privacy laws, he might not even have done this. Edited March 27, 2015 by micmichd

[slightlychilled]

Brilliant reactions by executives of Airbus, Lufthansa, Germanwings. Within hours they visited the disaster area. Relatives and the press were informed about first conclusions incredibly fast. No stupid games, no spinning attempts. That's the way to handle such a situation. Asian airlines watch this in amazement.

Yes especially the Lufthansa/Germanwings exec who when asked " in the light of what has happened will Lufthansa/Germanwings now be ensuring that there is always more than one person in the cockpit" astonishingly replied "I see no reason to change our procedures at this time "

Yes Brilliant truly brilliant...........................

TBH I don't think someone so mentally unstable that they want to crash a plane is going to be stopped by a stewardess sitting in the cockpit. If he has such a total disregard for human life he can easily render her unconscious / dead and just carry on crashing the plane.

[slightlychilled]

Obviously, Mr. Lubitz attended his private doctor for treatment, and he relied on privacy. Without privacy laws, he might not even have done this.

And there is no obligation to inform your private doctor what your profession is or who your employer is. You can even lie. In Germany, a professional can go to any doctor anytime, the doctor who wrote the sick notes may not even have known he was a pilot.

He passed his pilot qualification in 2008, yet because of his depression he had to work as a flight attendant for years, it probably felt as a demotion.

Not because of his depression but because flying school churns out far more pilots than there are vacancies available. Many bide their time working at check-in / cabin crew until a vacancy becomes available. This is not at all unusual.

[Scott]

Brilliant reactions by executives of Airbus, Lufthansa, Germanwings. Within hours they visited the disaster area. Relatives and the press were informed about first conclusions incredibly fast. No stupid games, no spinning attempts. That's the way to handle such a situation. Asian airlines watch this in amazement.

Yes especially the Lufthansa/Germanwings exec who when asked " in the light of what has happened will Lufthansa/Germanwings now be ensuring that there is always more than one person in the cockpit" astonishingly replied "I see no reason to change our procedures at this time "

Yes Brilliant truly brilliant...........................

TBH I don't think someone so mentally unstable that they want to crash a plane is going to be stopped by a stewardess sitting in the cockpit. If he has such a total disregard for human life he can easily render her unconscious / dead and just carry on crashing the plane.

A lot of suicidal people are intent on ending their life and are not particularly dangerous to those who are trying to stop them. Most are opportunistic enough to wait for the right time. How long he had planned to commit suicide is unknown. He may have been waiting for the right time and this could have been prevented had there been someone in the cockpit to let the captain in.

Many people consider suicide to be an extremely selfish act. In this case it would appear to be true. I don't think any of the passengers deserved to die.

[englishoak]

Brilliant reactions by executives of Airbus, Lufthansa, Germanwings. Within hours they visited the disaster area. Relatives and the press were informed about first conclusions incredibly fast. No stupid games, no spinning attempts. That's the way to handle such a situation. Asian airlines watch this in amazement.

Yes especially the Lufthansa/Germanwings exec who when asked " in the light of what has happened will Lufthansa/Germanwings now be ensuring that there is always more than one person in the cockpit" astonishingly replied "I see no reason to change our procedures at this time "

Yes Brilliant truly brilliant...........................

TBH I don't think someone so mentally unstable that they want to crash a plane is going to be stopped by a stewardess sitting in the cockpit. If he has such a total disregard for human life he can easily render her unconscious / dead and just carry on crashing the plane.

A lot of suicidal people are intent on ending their life and are not particularly dangerous to those who are trying to stop them. Most are opportunistic enough to wait for the right time. How long he had planned to commit suicide is unknown. He may have been waiting for the right time and this could have been prevented had there been someone in the cockpit to let the captain in.

Many people consider suicide to be an extremely selfish act. In this case it would appear to be true. I don't think any of the passengers deserved to die.

He could at any point have gone and rented a Cesna or many other private options and dived it into the ground. He chose the time and place and he definitely planned it to be exactly the way it went, thats some mental illness where you devise the plan to include 150 innocents instead of just him, the murdering ****

[Mosha]

Torn up sick notes relating to mental illness found. It just gets better

http://www.wsj.com/articles/germanwings-co-pilot-andreas-lubitz-had-medical-condition-says-spokesman-1427450383?mod=djemalertNEWS

Certain professions should be exempt from patient doctor confidentiality. The doctor in this case should have been able to contact the airline, and say this person is not fit to pilot an aircraft.

[Radar501]

"Captain tried to smash into cockpit with axe"

How is it that the captain gained access to an axe aft of the flightdeck, where even the sharpest objects allowed are plastic knives?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Radar501

[crusty]

Guess you're one of those who believe that mental diseases are not curable.

Clearly not cured in the case of this pilot..........

To operate a high tech aircraft and be responsible for 150 human lives, I would expect the flight deck would comprise four crew, an engineer, a navigator, chief pilot and co pilot but obviously the flying public has been short changed and the aircraft industry has been exposed for what they are, an ever growing rabble of cost savers where money and profits over rule safety and commonsense, Screw you all !

What a load of nonsense, when was the last time you were in the cockpit of an aircraft, 1959?

Oh, so now the pilot is a qualified engineer is he ? Marine law requires a dedicated navigator and engineer onboard what's so different with aircraft ?

[micmichd]

I guess he wanted utmost damage for Lufthansa/Germanwings.

Maybe he suffered from serious over-identification with "his" airline, and he didn't care the human lives on board too much.

If it is true that there is more pilots trained than actually needed, and it was not a personal insult if someone else was preferred, his boss should have explained this to him.

Unfortunately there's a tendency in big organizations where employees are told to obey orders without any questions, I think the German word for this is "Kadavergehorsam". Blind obedience to authority gives all way for confabulations about the reasons behind, and this might eventually end up in helpless paranoia.

Psychiatrists cannot cure everything, the management has to take its part, too.

[micmichd]

As far as I remember, the minimum crew used to be 3 in an airplane before Airbus Industries came up and invented the autopilot as a substitute for one of the 3.

There certainly should always be at least 2 people in a cockpit.

What would happen in cases of a blackout, a heart attack, or an epileptic attack if nobody is there to take over the control?