Orient Thai plunges from sky after engine fails

[Benmart]

Nosebleeds? Fainting? From descending too fast??

People react differently in dynamic situations. Since I wasn't there and haven't experienced a rapid descent with an engine out, I leave it at that.

[Benmart]

Nosebleeds? Fainting? From descending too fast??

Ever been in that situation? No, I thought not.... Maybe you can give us some insight on what has happened during your attempts to replicate this. Does the brain sort of lose focus on your knowledge of everything?

I prefer to attack the post and not the poster. The last sentence was really unnecessary and invalidates everything that preceded it IMO.

"Some seldom make deposits in the bank of civility".

[JOC]

See, if I got this right.

It happened on Saturday and is only reported in Thailand Tuesday??

All at the same time the government is promising God and the world, that Thailand is serious about addressing air safety issues.

And for starters, they try to sweep this incident under the carpet.

With that attitude (mai phen rai) I hope they get prohibited from flying to many more countries, than the 3 who had already said: Enough is enough!!

Edited March 31, 2015 by JOC

[ginjag]

See, if I got this right.

It happened on Saturday and is only reported in Thailand Tuesday??

All at the same time the government is promising God and the world, that Thailand is serious about addressing air safety issues.

And for starters, they try to sweep this incident under the carpet.

With that attitude (mai phen rai) I hope they get prohibited from flying to many more countries, than the 3 who had already said: Enough is enough!!

Ironic your post----you need 3 liters of the drink you bought me on another thread.

prior to the last 8 months - Are you satisfied the PTP and the PM had everything in control and aviation in Thailand was safe for their 3 years??

OTT anti Prayuth post as per norm.

[Alfred Gruetzner]

Good pilots are able to handle an engine failure during cruising speed in a way that the passengers do not even feel that something is wrong. But it is necessary to check the instruments constantly. If the plane starts to stall then it is obvious: Unawarness of the flying crew! Can be deadly. If the plane - for example - has a speed of 600 nm - then an engine failure will not put the plane immediately in a stall situation, The crew has ample time to react. If the plane is in take off situation the crew might handle this much better, because they are, have to, constantly observing the engine instruments and know what to do if an engine shuts down.

If you have the engines on the wing and 1 fails, wouldn't the airplane make a sharp turn, which may cause some other problems. And what would the autopilot do in such a situation?

there would not be a sharp turn by the aircraft. It will turn by some degrees only, but attentive crews immediately can react by switching off the autopilot and balance the rudders and look for the nearest airport to make an emergency landing. If this plane really has "fallen" from the sky by some thousand feet there must be another cause. May be they have flown too high up (flown in the so called coffin corner) where the

minimum and the maximum speed are very near together. If this happens the wings of the plane might suffer a flow demolition and then falls from sky like a stone. (happened with China airlines in the eighties) This incident is of course very rare. May be also they had a windshear (too much wind from the rear creating flow demolition too. Very dangerous

[AleG]

This is another example of sensational reporting. The engine did not fail but there was a fault in the oxygen system. The pilots initiated a rapid descent from their cruising altitude down to the oxygen level of 10,000ft initially, and landed the aircraft safely. Dramatic for the pax, yes, but pretty much in a day's work for your average pilot which is practiced umpteen times by them and it's part of the many emergency procedures carried out when necessary. Well done to the pilots who did their jobs to the book and everyone walked away, shaken but alive.

Obviously you know something no body else does??? All the reports coming out including those in China mention engine failure. Anyone who says that during an engin failure planes do not descend very rapidly as indicated have not studied aircraft accidents. They can, and have. dropped like stones just look at the Trident that crashed in Staines UK some years ago. Flying altitude to ground in a few seconds. The dropping speed required for passengers to have nose bleeds etc. is far more than what a normal high speed pilot controlled descent would be.

That Trident crash was caused by incorrect use of slats and a subsequent deep stall condition inherent to the T-Tail design of the airplane, engine problems had nothing to do with it.

Planes don't plummet when power is lost on one, two or all engines; an airliner can glide for more than a hundred kilometers from cruise altitude. The "Plunge" from the article was a fast descend due to cabin pressure loss, not a loss of control situation; quite the contrary in fact.

[wvavin]

So now you guys know why the Japanese issued an immediate ban followed by Korea and China.

[NeverSure]

I have some doubt that any aircraft can stall at any speed as you state. I believe there is a certain stall speed associated with any fixed wing aircraft. It would be interesting to be proved wrong though.

Sorry if someone has already answered this. A plane can stall at any airspeed. It has as much to do with the direction of airflow over the wings.

The wings are shaped as they are to provide lift as the plane flies. The shape creates lower pressure above the wing and higher pressure underneath it, creating lift.

If you were going full speed and suddenly pulled the nose up, the direction of the airflow relative to the wing would change so much there would no longer be lift. When the nose first went up the plane would continue in the same direction for a bit and it would stall right out of it.

[Tywais]

I have some doubt that any aircraft can stall at any speed as you state. I believe there is a certain stall speed associated with any fixed wing aircraft. It would be interesting to be proved wrong though.

Sorry if someone has already answered this. A plane can stall at any airspeed. It has as much to do with the direction of airflow over the wings.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/813523-orient-thai-plunges-from-sky-after-engine-fails/page-5#entry9252999

[MrY]

Airholes can cause a plane to drop like a stone.

...and A-holes fly Airbuses in to a stone wall.

[MrY]

AFAIK the f-16 is the world's only plane whose maximum engine thrust exceeds its weight (which varies of course) so it can theoretically fly straight up like a rocket. But even one of those can stall out.

F-16 and about 20 others....

[2fishin2]

I have some doubt that any aircraft can stall at any speed as you state. I believe there is a certain stall speed associated with any fixed wing aircraft. It would be interesting to be proved wrong though.

He is correct, the stall depends solely on angle of attack and not airspeed. Of course there is a relationship and that the slower the aircraft the higher the angle of attack needed to keep it at altitude.

Good succinct answer....obviated my response but it was going to be "just google it!"

AFAIK the f-16 is the world's only plane whose maximum engine thrust exceeds its weight (which varies of course) so it can theoretically fly straight up like a rocket. But even one of those can stall out.

Thats not true anymore....there are a few aircraft that can do that now.

[Enoon]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

A plane yes. A jet, not so much.

Deadstick landing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia For example, with a glide ratio of 15:1, a Boeing 747-200 can glide for 150 kilometres (93 mi) from a cruising altitude of 10,000 metres (33,000 ft).

An airplane or aeroplane (informally plane) is a powered, fixed-wing aircraft that is propelled forward by thrust from a jet engine or propeller.

[NeverSure]

Any aircraft can stall at any speed. When it stalls, sometimes the pilot can reestablish laminar flow over the wings and sometimes they cannot. In any case it takes time to recover from a stall and during that time, it falls like a lead balloon.

An aircraft can't stall at any speed.

This is just totally incorrect, but this plane didn't stall anyway. The person you are replying to is correct up to the lead balloon part and I think he's just being dramatic because he knows what he's talking about.

[hawksway]

Perhaps an over dramatized event. This is a Boeing 747 which can easily suffer 2 engines out in level flight. The drop of oxygen masks suggests the Pilot took the decision to declare an emergency and made a rapid descent to land.

[Lokie]

Pilot was probably looking for the gear down lever, hit the one marked (Oxygen Masks, Emergency Only) quick thinking - thought save face, make look like engine out, dive down, rapid decent for effect, no face lost - Hero!

[NeverSure]

Right, what would I know about flying... Silly me..

Which aircraft? The C17 or the second pose shot in what looks like a Hercky Jerky?

That his 'brother' who doesn't think you can get a nosebleed from a rapid descent - middle ear barotrauma.

[moe666]

Another typical Thai news cover up...'It never happened '....'Sweep it under the carpet '....'It was Yingluck's fault '....Heads in the sand.....Living in denial.....Thainess.

In short....anything but the transparent truth.

How is it a cover up on Thai visa corrtect

[CNXBKKMAN]

I have some doubt that any aircraft can stall at any speed as you state. I believe there is a certain stall speed associated with any fixed wing aircraft. It would be interesting to be proved wrong though.

He is correct, the stall depends solely on angle of attack and not airspeed. Of course there is a relationship and that the slower the aircraft the higher the angle of attack needed to keep it at altitude.

Good succinct answer....obviated my response but it was going to be "just google it!"

AFAIK the f-16 is the world's only plane whose maximum engine thrust exceeds its weight (which varies of course) so it can theoretically fly straight up like a rocket. But even one of those can stall out.

Thats not true anymore....there are a few aircraft that can do that now.

Someone told me once that 777-200 can fly up vertical if it's has no passengers or cargo so powerful are the two engines. Don't know if its ever been done, Boeing might have done it during testing? Aviation myth?

[Gonsalviz]

Maintenance what maintenance? We changed the oil a couple years ago.

In fact, the oil only gets a change when the engine gets changed. Whatever oil is lost during a component change is replenished but the oil never gets changed. The engine does not even have a filter.

[Captor]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Just a guess at this point. Combined with the nosebleeds and loss of engine a hunch is that it had rapid decompression and they dived to get low enough for atmospheric pressure to provide oxygen to the cabin.

That's a guess.

Cabin pressure is often maintained by energy from an engine or engines so my guess is additive.

That is what I guess too. Not even sure there was a problem with the engine... Just the cabine pressure?

[Enoon]

Well done to those (I presume) pilots who have tried to explain that stalls can occur at any speed if you exceed the critical angle of attack.

It is possible to observe high speed stalls in airshow disasters. They occur in the final seconds when a pilot, who has started a loop to low, yanks the stick back in panic, in a dive, at high speed just before hitting the ground. The fact that the aircraft has stalled at that point is not commented upon, as it was heading for its final destination when the loop commenced. The stall does not contribute to is end.

Isn't Wikipedia wonderful?

Stall (fluid mechanics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Stalls in fixed-wing flight are often experienced as a sudden reduction in lift as the pilot increases the wing's angle of attack and exceeds its critical angle of attack (which may be due to slowing down below stall speed in level flight).

"Stalls do not derive from airspeed and can occur at any speed - but only if the wings have too high an angle of attack."

Accelerated Stalls - Aircraft of World War II

"I think they may be talking about high speed stalls. Most stalls happen at low speed when the wing stops flying. You just drop out of the sky and, usually, one wing down.

But a high speed stall is where you're angle of attack to the wind flow exceeds the ability of the wing to create lift. For example, if you are buzzing along at 300mph and you yank the stick back very hard, the aircraft could stall with loss of lift over the wings. Band news if you are in fighter as the thing will probably start to tumble, really bad news in a GA aircraft as you'll probably lose your wings."

"Trying to get back on topic I do know that the Spitfire Pilots notes (all the versions that I have found) go to some trouble to warn pilots about its handling in a high speed stall flipping the aircraft onto its back."

Edited March 31, 2015 by Enoon

[stonycan]

Hats off to the pilots for getting it landed

[NeverSure]

Well done to those (I presume) pilots who have tried to explain that stalls can occur at any speed if you exceed the critical angle of attack.

It is possible to observe high speed stalls in airshow disasters. They occur in the final seconds when a pilot, who has started a loop to low, yanks the stick back in panic, in a dive, at high speed just before hitting the ground. The fact that the aircraft has stalled at that point is not commented upon, as it was heading for its final destination when the loop commenced. The stall does not contribute to is end.

Isn't Wikipedia wonderful?

Stall (fluid mechanics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Stalls in fixed-wing flight are often experienced as a sudden reduction in lift as the pilot increases the wing's angle of attack and exceeds its critical angle of attack (which may be due to slowing down below stall speed in level flight).

"Stalls do not derive from airspeed and can occur at any speed - but only if the wings have too high an angle of attack."

Accelerated Stalls - Aircraft of World War II

"I think they may be talking about high speed stalls. Most stalls happen at low speed when the wing stops flying. You just drop out of the sky and, usually, one wing down.

But a high speed stall is where you're angle of attack to the wind flow exceeds the ability of the wing to create lift. For example, if you are buzzing along at 300mph and you yank the stick back very hard, the aircraft could stall with loss of lift over the wings. Band news if you are in fighter as the thing will probably start to tumble, really bad news in a GA aircraft as you'll probably lose your wings."

"Trying to get back on topic I do know that the Spitfire Pilots notes (all the versions that I have found) go to some trouble to warn pilots about its handling in a high speed stall flipping the aircraft onto its back."

All true. Actually modern aircraft have a tapered wing with a different size and shape on the inboard sections compared to the outboard sections. This is designed to cause either the inboard or outboard sections of the wing to stall first, leaving the other sections flying, and the roll controls working. The other sections will of course soon stall too but it gives the pilot time to correct while still having control. The plane will still drop dramatically but not as much as when the other sections stall too, moments later.

I believe that most of the time it's the outboard sections that stall first. I don't know every plane at all, of course.

Planes are therefore much more likely to stay controllable longer, and give the pilot a chance to get the nose down and correct the angle of attack. The pilot can keep the wings level unless it all stalls.

Tapered wing.

Edited March 31, 2015 by NeverSure

[USNret]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Yeah, that's why planes never crash.

[KuhnPaen]

Ok, now that they are all safe and sound, they should fire the flight attendants for crying and carry on like that. They are only human, but what if the pilot acted like that? Instead, the pilot heroically managed to land the plane. Kudos to him

[HappyinNE]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

Any aircraft can stall at any speed. When it stalls, sometimes the pilot can reestablish laminar flow over the wings and sometimes they cannot. In any case it takes time to recover from a stall and during that time, it falls like a lead balloon.

Not true. There is always a defined stall speed. Also some stalls can be recovered from in a few seconds. Been in a lot of them as I was a Naval Aviator and also an instructor pilot. Had to teach students about stalls.

[Jonmarleesco]

Some countries must have been reading the tea leaves.

[lawrence1366]

Orient Thai aka 1-2-Go allowed to fly internationally after it crashed domestically and wind up. Perhaps international customers are less likely to recall the accident and locally, they have short memories.

[Longtooth]

I always assumed forward momentum and glide ratio would prevent a plane from falling from the sky?

My ultralight was lovely. I heard like a single engine Cessna 150 or 172 would be OK. I would guess the glide ratio of a jet airliner would not allow a landing as it would stall on landing flare attempt. You might even need at least one turbine running to power flight controls, don't know. I could be wrong. Is it possible that one particular jet engine is responsible for cabin pressurization instead of the general electrical system? Does every turbine have a generator that powers the electrical system? Is pressurization hydraulically powered and not electrically powered? Is pressurization tapped off of a turbine compressor stage? If it was one particular turbine that somehow drove the pressurization, the pilots would have to rapidly descend as the plane lost pressurization to try to reach a safe altitude, if the pressurization-engine was the one that failed. You would zoom down from about 35,000 feet to at least about 10,000 feet. The oxygen masks would probably deploy if the cabin pressure went below a certain equivalent level of safe pressure. Nose bleeds if they didn't get down fast enough. I'm only guessing, if somebody knows, fill us in.