Ambassador: US handed Cambodia to 'butcher' 40 years ago

[webfact]

Ambassador: US handed Cambodia to 'butcher' 40 years ago
By DENIS D. GRAY

PARIS (AP) — Twelve helicopters, bristling with guns and U.S. Marines, breached the morning horizon and began a daring descent toward Cambodia's besieged capital. Residents believed the Americans were rushing in to save them, but at the U.S. Embassy, in a bleeding city about to die, the ambassador wept.

Forty years later, John Gunther Dean recalls one of the most tragic days of his life — April 12, 1975, the day the United States "abandoned Cambodia and handed it over to the butcher."

"We'd accepted responsibility for Cambodia and then walked out without fulfilling our promise. That's the worst thing a country can do," he says in an interview in Paris. "And I cried because I knew what was going to happen."

Five days after the dramatic evacuation of Americans, the U.S.-backed government fell to communist Khmer Rouge guerrillas. They drove Phnom Penh's 2 million inhabitants into the countryside at gunpoint. Nearly 2 million Cambodians — one in every four — would die from executions, starvation and hideous torture.

Many foreigners present during the final months remain haunted to this day by Phnom Penh's death throes, by the heartbreaking loyalty of Cambodians who refused evacuation and by what Dean calls Washington's "indecent act."

I count myself among those foreigners, a reporter who covered the Cambodian War for The Associated Press and was whisked away along with Dean and 287 other Americans, Cambodians and third country nationals. I left behind more than a dozen Cambodian reporters and photographers — about the bravest, may I say the finest, colleagues I've ever known. Almost all would die.

The pullout, three weeks before the end of the Vietnam War, is largely forgotten, but for historians and political analysts, it was the first of what then-U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger termed "bug-outs."

"It was the first time Americans came anywhere close to losing a war. What worries me and many of us old guys who were there is that we are still seeing it happen," says Frank Snepp, a senior CIA officer in Saigon and author of "Decent Interval," which depicts the final years of the Vietnam War. After Cambodia and Vietnam came Laos; there would be other conflicts with messy endings, like Central America in the 1980s, Iraq and — potentially — Afghanistan.

Today, at 89, Dean and his French wife reside in an elegant Paris apartment graced by statues of Cambodian kings from the glory days of the Angkor Empire. A folded American flag lies across his knees, the same one he clutched under his arm in a plastic bag as he sped to the evacuation site. Captured by a photographer, it became one of the most memorable images of the Vietnam War era.

In the apartment's vestibule hangs a framed letter signed by President Gerald R. Ford and dated Aug. 14, 1975. It highlights that Dean was "given one of the most difficult assignments in the history of the Foreign Service and carried it out with distinction."

But Dean says: "I failed."

"I tried so hard," he adds. "I took as many people as I could, hundreds of them, I took them out, but I couldn't take the whole nation out."

The former ambassador to four other countries is highly critical of America's violation of Cambodian neutrality by armed incursions from neighboring Vietnam and a secret bombing campaign in the early 1970s.

The U.S. bombed communist Vietnamese sanctuaries and supply lines along the Vietnam-Cambodia border, keeping Cambodia's Lon Nol government propped up as an anti-communist enclave, but it provided World War II aircraft and few artillery pieces to Phnom Penh forces fighting the Khmer Rouge.

In his memoirs, Kissinger says the U.S. had no choice but to expand its efforts into the neighboring country which the North Vietnamese were using as a staging area and armory, and that anti-war sentiment prevented it from giving Cambodia more assistance.

Dean is bitter that Washington did not support his quest to persuade ousted Cambodian King Norodom Sihanouk to return from exile and forge a coalition between the Khmer Rouge and Lon Nol. It was Dean's "controlled solution."

"Ambassador Dean never had (President Richard) Nixon's or Kissinger's support because both of them wanted out of Indochina," Snepp says, though he, and some historians, doubt that Dean's plan could have worked.

By early 1975, the embassy's cables, most of them declassified in 2006, were becoming increasingly frantic.

Meeting me one day, a haggard Dean, who had lost 15 pounds, asked rhetorically: "Isn't there any sense of human decency left in us?"

The Khmer Rouge were tightening their stranglehold on the capital, shutting down its airport from which the embassy had flown out several hundred Cambodians. An April 6 cable from Dean said the Cambodian government and army "seem to be expecting us to produce some miracle to save them. You and I know there will be no such miracle."

Congress was cutting the aid lifeline to Phnom Penh. The American public had had enough of the war.

Among Cambodians in-the-know, some anti-American feeling was growing.

"We in Cambodia have been seduced and abandoned," Chhang Song, a former information minister, said one night in early 1975.

But among Phnom Penh residents I found only smiles — "Americans are our fathers," one vegetable vendor told me — along with a never-never-land mindset that things would turn out to be all right. Somehow.

The morning of the evacuation, Dean sat in his office one last time and read a letter from Prince Sirik Matak in which the respected former deputy prime minister declined evacuation and thus sealed his own death. It read: "I never believed for a moment that you have this sentiment of abandoning a people which has chosen liberty. I have only committed this mistake of believing in you the Americans."

Dean today describes it as the "greatest accusation ever made by foreigners. It is wrenching, no?"

His embassy closed down at 9:45 a.m., the evacuees driven to a soccer field. The "Jolly Green Giant" helicopters were setting down. The Marines fanned out to form a security cordon, but fears of Cambodian reprisals proved unfounded.

Children and mothers scrambled over fences to watch. They cheered, clapped and waved. A Cambodian military policeman smartly saluted Alan Armstrong, the assistant defense attache. Disgusted and ashamed, Armstrong dropped his helmet and rifle, leaving them behind.

I tried to avoid looking into faces of the crowd. Always with me will be the children's little hands aflutter and their singsong "OK, Bye-bye, bye-bye."

Five days later we received a cable from Mean Leang, an ever-jovial, baby-faced AP reporter who had refused to seek safety. He wrote about the brutal entry of the Khmer Rouge into the city, its surrender and its gunpoint evacuation. "I alone in office, losing contact with our guys. I feel rather trembling," he messaged. "Do not know how to file our stories now ... maybe last cable today and forever."

Barry Broman, then a young diplomat, remembers a Cambodian woman who worked upcountry monitoring the war for the embassy who had also refused evacuation.

"One day she said, 'They are in the city,' and her contact said 'OK, time to go.' She refused. Later she reported, 'They are in the building,' and again refused to leave her post. Her last transmission was, 'They are in the room. Good-bye.' The line went dead."

EDITOR'S NOTE _ AP reporter Denis Gray, who covered the Cambodian War, was evacuated from Phnom Penh 40 years ago.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-04-10

[zydeco]

Well written piece. Good reporting from someone who was also a primary source.

[casualbiker]

A sad sad episode in south east Asian history.. It's kinda a pity Thai kids don't learn it in school!

[Just1Voice]

April 30th, 1975. I was finishing my shower when my wife rushed into the bathroom and told me come watch the news. The news was the evacuation of Siagon just before the fall. I sat on the sofa, stunned into silence. I had served 3 tours with the Marines in Vietnam, and as I sat there, the only thing I could think was - "It was all a waste of time", as I cried.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Just1Voice

[Grouse]

And all because of an irrational fear of communism! The Vietnamese just wanted their country back and just look at the collateral damage in meibouring countries!

Act in haste and repent at leisure as they say!

I for one am hoping for a much more isolationist US of A in coming years.....

[Steely Dan]

Don't start something you are not prepared to finish springs to mind. This truism doesn't just apply to the U.S but to anyone who intervenes in a foreign Country, especially if done so on ostensibly humanitarian grounds.

[zydeco]

And all because of an irrational fear of communism! The Vietnamese just wanted their country back and just look at the collateral damage in meibouring countries!

Act in haste and repent at leisure as they say!

I for one am hoping for a much more isolationist US of A in coming years.....

Irrational fear of the bloodiest, most murderous ideology in human history? Don't forget that the Khmer Rouge were the creation of Hanoi and Beijing.

[Cats4ever]

Hanoi did not have too much to do with the Khmer Rouge - Hun Sen fled to Vietnam and was installed in government by Vietnam when they threw out the Khmer Rouge. Something that Western countries used as an excuse (disgracefully) to further isolate Vietnam. No one comes out of wars entirely clean. Getting rid of the KR was a very good thing. The west simply failed to fully understand the old Indo Chine, and the communist bogey card was played.

[Robby nz]

And all because of an irrational fear of communism! The Vietnamese just wanted their country back and just look at the collateral damage in meibouring countries!

Act in haste and repent at leisure as they say!

I for one am hoping for a much more isolationist US of A in coming years.....

Irrational fear of the bloodiest, most murderous ideology in human history? Don't forget that the Khmer Rouge were the creation of Hanoi and Beijing.

There have been many books written on these times, read one or more of them and find out you are way out of line on that one.

It was Hanoi, Vietnam, who eventually went in and booted the KR out and installed Hun sen, who is still there, as PM.

[oneday]

Don't start something you are not prepared to finish springs to mind...

This is so incredibly true. We general have the best of intentions, but we are always vilified for trying to do the right thing and it NEVER turns out good.

All I can say is future presidents have a good number of examples to look at before they decide to go into anymore countries and try to save the day or hunt down those that have harmed us.

[junk1e]

Re. Irrational fear of the bloodiest, most murderous ideology in human history? Don't forget that the Khmer Rouge were the creation of Hanoi and Beijing.

That is absolute rubbish. Chinese and Vietnamese were the most persecuted minorities in Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge years. Was the Vietnamese who eventually invaded and kicked the Khmer Rouge out and suffered years of sanctions by the US and others as a result. The West were not that interested as no financial incentive to get involved in Cambodia.

[GreasyFingers]

A sad sad episode in south east Asian history.. It's kinda a pity Thai kids don't learn it in school!

The real pity is that the American kids never learn it in school or anywhere.

[Suradit69]

A sad sad episode in south east Asian history.. It's kinda a pity Thai kids don't learn it in school!

How about American kids (and adults for that matter). Are they all well-versed on it all?

A sad sad episode in south east Asian history.. It's kinda a pity Thai kids don't learn it in school!

The real pity is that the American kids never learn it in school or anywhere.

Yes some people lament that Thai kids aren't knowledgeable about things that happened in Europe during the Second World War and the Nazis, but I wonder how much history is taught Americans about their own country's involvement in places like Cambodia or Vietnam. I imagine it's reduced to a brief chapter of highly edited and/or revisionist history ... just like the Brit's selective recall of the devastating impact of their colonial period.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Suradit69

[zydeco]

The incredible ignorance being expressed here about what happened during the war years is absolutely staggering. Stated by a bunch of people who got their information out of newspapers while sipping tea and coffee.

[zydeco]

And all because of an irrational fear of communism! The Vietnamese just wanted their country back and just look at the collateral damage in meibouring countries!

Act in haste and repent at leisure as they say!

I for one am hoping for a much more isolationist US of A in coming years.....

Irrational fear of the bloodiest, most murderous ideology in human history? Don't forget that the Khmer Rouge were the creation of Hanoi and Beijing.

There have been many books written on these times, read one or more of them and find out you are way out of line on that one.

It was Hanoi, Vietnam, who eventually went in and booted the KR out and installed Hun sen, who is still there, as PM.

Don't just study the tail end of history. Saloth Sar was educated in the French Communist Party, led the CPK from the early 60s until grabbing power with the aid of North Vietnam and China (with Sihanouk as a front man) and ousting the United States' supported government led by Lon Nol.

[727Sky]

April 30th, 1975. I was finishing my shower when my wife rushed into the bathroom and told me come watch the news. The news was the evacuation of Siagon just before the fall. I sat on the sofa, stunned into silence. I had served 3 tours with the Marines in Vietnam, and as I sat there, the only thing I could think was - "It was all a waste of time", as I cried.

I flew into Saigon and pulled the Ambassador's wife, birdcage, and rwo kids out for a return trip to Bangkok on the Friday before the monday it fell. The Vietnamese troops were totally demoralized.. For those of us who fought in that war it was a turning point for the rest of our lives on many different levels.

The Cambodia Fish hook operation by the U.S. military was actually very sucessful as far as supplies captured and NVA killed.

It was very quiet in Viet Nam for the next couple of months especially in 3 Corps

The U.S. tried the same thing in Laos and the First Cav had many many aircraft shot down because the NVA were waiting for them with 51 Cal, 23mm, and 37 mm radar guided anti aircraft guns.... That operation was one big cluster F.

Cambodia and its' capatol were just about all that was left as the Khmer Rouge surrounded the capitol . It was a slow but steady advance that all could see... In the outskirts of the country there still was a lot of U.S. R&D going on such as fuel air bomb testing and other particularly nasty weapons; but nothing of that was really effective against the advance of the Khmer Rouge... for there was no intent or plan (means) to really stop them... the country was lost and 2 to 4 million Cambodians were killed by kids carrying AKs and clubs... America did not give a rats hinney and just turned its' back on the who affair... Not a time in American history to be proud of IMO.

Right or wrong it was a war that many young Americans (some 56,000 if you want to believe the official numbers) gave their lives for; not to mention all the Vietnamese, Cambodian, and residents of Laos ... The big boys all preached the domino effect and this is 'the line we must hold' until it became inconvenient .. mean while the young men died or came back with scars and maimed bodies which they had to live with for the rest of their lives...

Many books have been written about this subject so no need for me to write one here.. A any politician is likely to say, "We must put this time behind us an look forward"...

That way they can make the same mistake again due to a short memory span of a given population. How is that war on terror going ? War on Cancer (send money) the only war they seem to be good at is the war on their very own people.... Yah know, the war that intercepts every bit and bite of electronic correspondence from all over the world. But that is OK for it is for your own good and safety..

Seems that all wars are just a racket and about money for the few while the many suffer... The few to stay in power and maintain their monopoly on the goods and services for the war machine...

.

[JingerBen]

April 30th, 1975. I was finishing my shower when my wife rushed into the bathroom and told me come watch the news. The news was the evacuation of Siagon just before the fall. I sat on the sofa, stunned into silence. I had served 3 tours with the Marines in Vietnam, and as I sat there, the only thing I could think was - "It was all a waste of time", as I cried.

I flew into Saigon and pulled the Ambassador's wife, birdcage, and rwo kids out for a return trip to Bangkok on the Friday before the monday it fell. The Vietnamese troops were totally demoralized.. For those of us who fought in that war it was a turning point for the rest of our lives on many different levels.

The Cambodia Fish hook operation by the U.S. military was actually very sucessful as far as supplies captured and NVA killed.

It was very quiet in Viet Nam for the next couple of months especially in 3 Corps

The U.S. tried the same thing in Laos and the First Cav had many many aircraft shot down because the NVA were waiting for them with 51 Cal, 23mm, and 37 mm radar guided anti aircraft guns.... That operation was one big cluster F.

Cambodia and its' capatol were just about all that was left as the Khmer Rouge surrounded the capitol . It was a slow but steady advance that all could see... In the outskirts of the country there still was a lot of U.S. R&D going on such as fuel air bomb testing and other particularly nasty weapons; but nothing of that was really effective against the advance of the Khmer Rouge... for there was no intent or plan (means) to really stop them... the country was lost and 2 to 4 million Cambodians were killed by kids carrying AKs and clubs... America did not give a rats hinney and just turned its' back on the who affair... Not a time in American history to be proud of IMO.

Right or wrong it was a war that many young Americans (some 56,000 if you want to believe the official numbers) gave their lives for; not to mention all the Vietnamese, Cambodian, and residents of Laos ... The big boys all preached the domino effect and this is 'the line we must hold' until it became inconvenient .. mean while the young men died or came back with scars and maimed bodies which they had to live with for the rest of their lives...

Many books have been written about this subject so no need for me to write one here.. A any politician is likely to say, "We must put this time behind us an look forward"...

That way they can make the same mistake again due to a short memory span of a given population. How is that war on terror going ? War on Cancer (send money) the only war they seem to be good at is the war on their very own people.... Yah know, the war that intercepts every bit and bite of electronic correspondence from all over the world. But that is OK for it is for your own good and safety..

Seems that all wars are just a racket and about money for the few while the many suffer... The few to stay in power and maintain their monopoly on the goods and services for the war machine...

.

Thanks for that excellent and perceptive post.

[anon4546543]

My country (Australia) has followed the US into many failed and dismal war zones. Mr Dean states-"it was the first time Americans came close to losing a war". You have to be joking. Good American soldiers and their allies have died on fruitless incursions. Since WW11 the US has lost every war except Panama and a small Caribbean nation. Sure, they win the battles, but they nearly always lose the war. Thankfully the US is too broke to invade another country. This comment is not meant to upset vets, especially the US marines and my Aussie former soldiers. But lets come totally clean on all this. The US policy of being the worlds policeman is totally redundant. Enuf sed.

[ggt]

"Isn't there any sense of human decency left in us?"

Very disturbing account of the last days of the fall of Cambodia to the Khmer Rouge...

Countries were more naïve to the lack of integrity in US foreign policy in those days...

Few countries in the world pay much attention to what the US says these days...so much hot air...

[Grouse]

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it (Churchill)

[zydeco]

April 30th, 1975. I was finishing my shower when my wife rushed into the bathroom and told me come watch the news. The news was the evacuation of Siagon just before the fall. I sat on the sofa, stunned into silence. I had served 3 tours with the Marines in Vietnam, and as I sat there, the only thing I could think was - "It was all a waste of time", as I cried.

I flew into Saigon and pulled the Ambassador's wife, birdcage, and rwo kids out for a return trip to Bangkok on the Friday before the monday it fell. The Vietnamese troops were totally demoralized.. For those of us who fought in that war it was a turning point for the rest of our lives on many different levels.

The Cambodia Fish hook operation by the U.S. military was actually very sucessful as far as supplies captured and NVA killed.

It was very quiet in Viet Nam for the next couple of months especially in 3 Corps

The U.S. tried the same thing in Laos and the First Cav had many many aircraft shot down because the NVA were waiting for them with 51 Cal, 23mm, and 37 mm radar guided anti aircraft guns.... That operation was one big cluster F.

Cambodia and its' capatol were just about all that was left as the Khmer Rouge surrounded the capitol . It was a slow but steady advance that all could see... In the outskirts of the country there still was a lot of U.S. R&D going on such as fuel air bomb testing and other particularly nasty weapons; but nothing of that was really effective against the advance of the Khmer Rouge... for there was no intent or plan (means) to really stop them... the country was lost and 2 to 4 million Cambodians were killed by kids carrying AKs and clubs... America did not give a rats hinney and just turned its' back on the who affair... Not a time in American history to be proud of IMO.

Right or wrong it was a war that many young Americans (some 56,000 if you want to believe the official numbers) gave their lives for; not to mention all the Vietnamese, Cambodian, and residents of Laos ... The big boys all preached the domino effect and this is 'the line we must hold' until it became inconvenient .. mean while the young men died or came back with scars and maimed bodies which they had to live with for the rest of their lives...

Many books have been written about this subject so no need for me to write one here.. A any politician is likely to say, "We must put this time behind us an look forward"...

That way they can make the same mistake again due to a short memory span of a given population. How is that war on terror going ? War on Cancer (send money) the only war they seem to be good at is the war on their very own people.... Yah know, the war that intercepts every bit and bite of electronic correspondence from all over the world. But that is OK for it is for your own good and safety..

Seems that all wars are just a racket and about money for the few while the many suffer... The few to stay in power and maintain their monopoly on the goods and services for the war machine...

.

Were you AAM or Continental?

[Seastallion]

And history repeats now.

From McCarthy's reds under the bed that led to Viet Nam, to Bush's "war on terror"........really, REALLY we have to wonder about what the gummint is telling us.

[elgordo38]

Re. Irrational fear of the bloodiest, most murderous ideology in human history? Don't forget that the Khmer Rouge were the creation of Hanoi and Beijing.

That is absolute rubbish. Chinese and Vietnamese were the most persecuted minorities in Cambodia during the Khmer Rouge years. Was the Vietnamese who eventually invaded and kicked the Khmer Rouge out and suffered years of sanctions by the US and others as a result. The West were not that interested as no financial incentive to get involved in Cambodia.

Yes all they had was rice no oil so they were left behind. (DELETED)

Edited April 10, 2015 by seedy
off topic

[seedy]

Troll / Flaming post removed.

Edit: Other off-topic posts and replies have been removed along with conspiracy theory posts.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Scott

[727Sky]

Tan Son Nhut Air Base was receiving mortar and small arms fire sporadically throughout that week prior to the fall. The mission was tasked to the Army and a U-21 aircraft because if the runway became unusable I could take-off from a taxi-way if needed.. The U-21 twin engine turbo prop could even do grass if I had to.

I was Military which had spent about a year and a half in Udon then 6 months in Utapao (all sneaky pete no dog tag kind of missions for intell... Looking back it was stupid) for 6 months before I transferred to Bangkok and the 70th aviation detachment. My years in Viet Nam were 69 to 70 First Cav airmobile rude crude and totally unsophisticated Mofos but we got the job done. I was one of those doing Cambodia in a UH-1H Huey with all the rest of the guys in the fish hook. When I left the service they tried to recruit me for some flying in Central and South America.. Probably for the Iran Contra B.S. Just speculation but ... The recruiter actually bought me a very nice supper and upon the completion as he walked out to his car he pulled a telescopic mirror out and checked under the doors of his two door coupe.. Paranoia and cloak and dagger stuff plus me do not get along very well.. I do not want to live looking over my shoulder all the rest of my life... Plus as time has shown if you are hanging it out they will throw you under the bus without a second look if it is better for TPTB.

When Nam fell I hung up my guns and even got out of the reserve.. I could have stayed and retired but if they had called another war.... My thinking was..... I did wonder if I would go... So I resigned and got a real job with Continental Airlines which was finally swallowed by United a few years before my retirement.

No regrets here I sleep well with my life's decisions yet I do morn for my country. Many of my X military guys seem to think the America of today is not the America we fought for.. There are many good and great Americans ... Unfortunately it appears few reside in Washington D.C.

[emilymat]

As a Brit, thanks for the posts, particularly the Americans who were active at the time. I often wondered exactly how accurate 'The Killing Fields' was, even though I have followed western politics avidly for 50 years.

It's clear from what posters and OP say, that the film was pretty accurate, and I found it upsetting to watch the first time.

[johna]

I have to disagree with Dean, the worst thing America did with Cambodia, was siding with the Khmer Rouge when Vietnam liberated Cambodia in 1979.

America and its puppy dog Britain trained and armed the Khmer Rough in camps along the Thai border, the Brits took KR cadres to Malaysia for training.

Margaret Thatcher in a rare attack of conscience ended Britain's aid to the KR

[Trouble]

Tan Son Nhut Air Base was receiving mortar and small arms fire sporadically throughout that week prior to the fall. The mission was tasked to the Army and a U-21 aircraft because if the runway became unusable I could take-off from a taxi-way if needed.. The U-21 twin engine turbo prop could even do grass if I had to.

I was Military which had spent about a year and a half in Udon then 6 months in Utapao (all sneaky pete no dog tag kind of missions for intell... Looking back it was stupid) for 6 months before I transferred to Bangkok and the 70th aviation detachment. My years in Viet Nam were 69 to 70 First Cav airmobile rude crude and totally unsophisticated Mofos but we got the job done. I was one of those doing Cambodia in a UH-1H Huey with all the rest of the guys in the fish hook. When I left the service they tried to recruit me for some flying in Central and South America.. Probably for the Iran Contra B.S. Just speculation but ... The recruiter actually bought me a very nice supper and upon the completion as he walked out to his car he pulled a telescopic mirror out and checked under the doors of his two door coupe.. Paranoia and cloak and dagger stuff plus me do not get along very well.. I do not want to live looking over my shoulder all the rest of my life... Plus as time has shown if you are hanging it out they will throw you under the bus without a second look if it is better for TPTB.

When Nam fell I hung up my guns and even got out of the reserve.. I could have stayed and retired but if they had called another war.... My thinking was..... I did wonder if I would go... So I resigned and got a real job with Continental Airlines which was finally swallowed by United a few years before my retirement.

No regrets here I sleep well with my life's decisions yet I do morn for my country. Many of my X military guys seem to think the America of today is not the America we fought for.. There are many good and great Americans ... Unfortunately it appears few reside in Washington D.C.

"Many of my X military guys seem to think the America of today is not the America we fought for.. There are many good and great Americans ... Unfortunately it appears few reside in Washington D.C."

Never a better statement about the sad state of American leadership today.

I served in Pleiku at the end of the conflict 71-72. It was so sad to witness the bases at Phu Cat, Cam Ranh Bay, Pleiku closing and knowing that we were just giving up, going home with our tails between our legs. You were certainly correct in your previous post about how the war affected our thought about subsequent conflicts. One can see the parallel in Iraq as we left and now are witnessing the consequences, just as we witnessed the aftermath of departing Vietnam in 1972. The same will happen in Afghanistan if we are not careful. There is no better remembrance of the tragedy of Vietnam than the Wall in Washington DC with it's 58,000 names. It's not a place to remember a victory but a place to reflect on the price of conflict.

[thedude82]

so the khmer rouge is america's fault as well. Where was thailand in all of this? its their neighbors. funny how Vietnam was the one to clean up Cambodia.

[Credo]

Wars and conflicts seldom confine themselves to geopolitical borders. They spill over borders and into other countries.

Europe was a mess after WWI and WWII. S.E. Asia was in tatters after 75. Iraq and Afghanistan will be a mess for a long time as will many of the countries in the Middle East that are experiencing conflicts.

There are lessons to be learned, but sadly, they never are.