Right of Way for Emergency Vehicles in Chiang Mai

[Mapguy]

The latest news of the fire in Wararot Market where fire fighters were apparently hampered reaching the blaze by bystanders and others and a personal observation yesterday about drivers failing to give right of way to an ambulance obviously in a rush to make it to the hospital have given me an idea.

The observations below are made with full realization that there are many places where appropriate manouvering is simply not possible or is difficult. An ancient city can be quite crowded.

About the fire engines trying to reach the fire, note that there are two fire stations with appropriate equipment not very far away from the location of the blaze. Indeed, one is very close (on the road past the American Consulate very near to the river), although the engines would have to have had to go against traffic at the last intersection before the location of the fire to reach the fire. The problem noted in the news: onlookers and neighboring vendors blocked access. The other is on the south side of the moat with a more difficult route to follow, but not too far away.

About the ambulance, quite noticeably in a hurry (more so than usually observed) because the driver even swung into ongoing traffic to get around traffic blocking his own lane that clearly had time and space to pull to the side. You don't often (my first time, actually) see an ambulance driver --- all lights ablaze and siren blaring --- being that aggressive. Quite often, of course, on some roads, like Huay Kaew, traffic is unable to move over, but this wasn't the case at all. There was clearly access to the side of the road and time to reach it in order to let the ambulance pass.

So, here's an idea for developing a solution to avoid such like-threatening situations. There have been posts before about dashboard cams. Why not dashboard cams on emergency vehicles? Then, the next step would be analysing the footage both for assessing traffic penalties and for public information and "instruction." Blocking emergency vehicles is taken very, very seriously in many countries. No little slap-on-the-wrist 200 bhat fines.

I hope that there are some constructive comments or improvements upon this basic idea. Please no "TIT" or "Thai drivers are crazy" comments, or those of fatalists! Such comments don't real add anything to the conversation. It is certainly valid that the advanced traffic systems and the highly-policed traffic in some countries (most likely the homelands of most posters here) make emergency vehicle access better taught, more understood and observed. Ok, but what to do to improve the situation here?

What if the fire were at your condo? Or you were in the back of the ambulance?

[masuk]

Major roads would need to have an extra lane, available only to buses (Chiang Mai read Song Teaws), and emergency vehicles. Pull-over bays would need to be created for public vehicles (buses) to pull into as required.

To ensure that drivers don't 'stray' into these lanes, good policing and realistic fines would be needed.

The extra lane would need to be painted in, and maybe city drivers start switching to smaller commuter cars and not these lumbering 4WDs they seem to love.

[FolkGuitar]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Edited June 5, 2015 by FolkGuitar

[DGS1244]

It is not the ambulances and fire appliances you need worry about it is the 'volunteer' rescue squads. They drive like maniacs, with no equipment haft the time and put more people at risk than those that they 'save. I have frequently seen them racing ton get home not to an incident.

[suzannegoh]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Singapore has three advantages in putting in a system like that which Chiang Mai lacks -- money to install the infrastructure, a citizenry that is willing to obey traffic laws, and traffic police who aren't corrupt.

Edited June 6, 2015 by suzannegoh

[Dante99]

Is this just conversation or do you, Mapguy, intend to take a recommendation to the government? How many of your oft posted recommendations for the government have you actually taken to them?

[worgeordie]

Is this just conversation or do you, Mapguy, intend to take a recommendation to the government? How many of your oft posted recommendations for the government have you actually taken to them?

99, Why are you always so negative,you criticize,but offer no or little help,

questions but no answers.

regards Worgeordie

[masuk]

Is this just conversation or do you, Mapguy, intend to take a recommendation to the government? How many of your oft posted recommendations for the government have you actually taken to them?

Everything we write is noted and recorded.

[Mapguy]

It is not the ambulances and fire appliances you need worry about it is the 'volunteer' rescue squads. They drive like maniacs, with no equipment haft the time and put more people at risk than those that they 'save. I have frequently seen them racing ton get home not to an incident.

No doubt emergency vehicles need to be regulated somehow, but accepting that, that problem is really a different one.

[Oscar2]

It is not the ambulances and fire appliances you need worry about it is the 'volunteer' rescue squads. They drive like maniacs, with no equipment haft the time and put more people at risk than those that they 'save. I have frequently seen them racing ton get home not to an incident.

rubbish. they are great. i have seen many in action and how they saved a guy's life in our village. i also have first-hand experience with them from my own very bad accident 2 years ago. yes they drive fast but they are very committed - all for free. i saw a show on television about a year ago and many of them in Bangkok spend upwards of one million Bath of their own money hot-rodding their engines, buying oxygen, defibrillators, drugs, respirators, etc. all they get in return is supposedly good karma.

[Dante99]

Is this just conversation or do you, Mapguy, intend to take a recommendation to the government? How many of your oft posted recommendations for the government have you actually taken to them?

99, Why are you always so negative,you criticize,but offer no or little help,

questions but no answers.

regards Worgeordie

Your use of the word "always" shows that you do not read broadly or well.

That you find my questions to be negative and criticizing reflects more on you than on the questions.

Chill out, enjoy the ride, intense focus on the destination <removed> up the trip.

[chingmai331]

Isn't this just some question of 'fate'? If your destiny is to live in a dense, urban zone overcrowded with vehicles who cannot get through to rescue you, that's your fate.

I was driving on the highway yesterday and the ambulance came up behind me and i moved over. No other cars within 200 meters, so no problem. But frankly, in the inner city the solution is not at hand.

How about the hundreds of sagging wires, entertainment, internet and electrical wires, hanging off the posts all over the city? The chances of one falling and hurting you are slim indeed. Should the city DO something? If fire at your place, my advice: get everyone out, call the Fire Dept, get the garden hose and offer a prayerful hope.

I can offer what happened in my USA city 5 yrs ago. Emerg medical trucks have few rules, the most important being '12 minute response time to any destination'. So they really go fast and are really LOUD. Zoom over the small crest in the road, crash into a car with mom and 2 kids, all in car died. No liability on 4 tonne Emerg truck, he was 'legal'.

Be careful what you wish for.

[legend23]

Well here is a can of worms!

Congestion tax like anywhere else - fail.

Extra lanes - could work but hard to implement. And red truck only lanes, forget that they make their own lanes enough already.

The whole thing about Chiang Mai is that it is there already, and without bulldozing the whole place and starting again. then seriously, all you've got to do is work with what you have. It's not the worst. Things like making Nimman a clearway between 4pm and 8pm, with cars being towed away instead of clamped and still blocking lanes.

Tourists, Chiang Mai has lots and that will not change, so deal with it. Many of those tourists come from places with very different driving conditions, they forget they need to drive Chiang Mai style.

And there are so many other points you could make!

[maximillian]

I am not familiar with Chiang Mai, but my observation in Nakhon Si Thammarat traffic congestions, I would suggest a One Way System like they have in Manhattan for example. Only left turns possible. Good planning needed for that. Traffic law enforcement. Get experts from the US, Singapore etc...

There is a solution to every problem if there is a will to do so.

[FolkGuitar]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Singapore has three advantages in putting in a system like that which Chiang Mai lacks -- money to install the infrastructure, a citizenry that is willing to obey traffic laws, and traffic police who aren't corrupt.

Yes, there would be problems... but the advantages of this system negate many of them. Unfortunately, very few people are honest enough to obey laws simply because they are the right thing to do. That's why there are traffic tickets and fines.

Once the electronic readers are in place (and placed beside all the cameras currently installed,) it needs no 'on-street' police to monitor the system. We know that the citizenry will not be 'willing' to obey, but as is already happening to those who have violated traffic laws on camera, they will not be able to re-register their vehicles at the end of the year without paying off their fines. With enough fines accruing, confiscation of vehicles will turn many scoff-laws into very law-abiding citizens. It might take 2-3 years of in-use program, but by then enough folks will get the message and either pay for a monthly or yearly pass, or stop driving private cars into town, significantly reducing the congestion on city streets.

[Dante99]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Singapore has three advantages in putting in a system like that which Chiang Mai lacks -- money to install the infrastructure, a citizenry that is willing to obey traffic laws, and traffic police who aren't corrupt.

Yes, there would be problems... but the advantages of this system negate many of them. Unfortunately, very few people are honest enough to obey laws simply because they are the right thing to do. That's why there are traffic tickets and fines.

Once the electronic readers are in place (and placed beside all the cameras currently installed,) it needs no 'on-street' police to monitor the system. We know that the citizenry will not be 'willing' to obey, but as is already happening to those who have violated traffic laws on camera, they will not be able to re-register their vehicles at the end of the year without paying off their fines. With enough fines accruing, confiscation of vehicles will turn many scoff-laws into very law-abiding citizens. It might take 2-3 years of in-use program, but by then enough folks will get the message and either pay for a monthly or yearly pass, or stop driving private cars into town, significantly reducing the congestion on city streets.

The Singapore system is good and has different costs for different times of day. It uses an electronic device on the dash of every car enabeling automatic debit.

Very very difficult to do in Chiang Mai. Fai dap

[FolkGuitar]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Singapore has three advantages in putting in a system like that which Chiang Mai lacks -- money to install the infrastructure, a citizenry that is willing to obey traffic laws, and traffic police who aren't corrupt.

Yes, there would be problems... but the advantages of this system negate many of them. Unfortunately, very few people are honest enough to obey laws simply because they are the right thing to do. That's why there are traffic tickets and fines.

Once the electronic readers are in place (and placed beside all the cameras currently installed,) it needs no 'on-street' police to monitor the system. We know that the citizenry will not be 'willing' to obey, but as is already happening to those who have violated traffic laws on camera, they will not be able to re-register their vehicles at the end of the year without paying off their fines. With enough fines accruing, confiscation of vehicles will turn many scoff-laws into very law-abiding citizens. It might take 2-3 years of in-use program, but by then enough folks will get the message and either pay for a monthly or yearly pass, or stop driving private cars into town, significantly reducing the congestion on city streets.

The Singapore system is good and has different costs for different times of day. It uses an electronic device on the dash of every car enabeling automatic debit.

Very very difficult to do in Chiang Mai. Fai dap

Yes, the same electronic system that I mentioned in my first post...

"The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access."

Why do you think it would be 'very very difficult' to do in Chiang Mai? All it takes is sensors located over the main streets into town to reduce the traffic considerably. Sure, there will always be some petty sneak-thieves using the smaller sois just as there are now, but random police checks as they do now for helmets would handle that.

[suzannegoh]

With an aim to reduce city street congestion, some years ago Singapore created a private care free zone in its downtown area. If you want to drive into the zone you need to pay. The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access. Others need to pay for the privilege of driving their personal cars into the downtown streets, payable on a daily use basis. Mounted cameras enforce the law. This system cut the traffic load in half!

If put into effect in Chiang Mai, it would server dual purpose; significantly reduce the traffic congestion, and allow emergency vehicles greater freedom in completion of their tasks. With less cars on the road, these ambulances and fire trucks would stand a better chance of getting through in a timely fashion.

Singapore has three advantages in putting in a system like that which Chiang Mai lacks -- money to install the infrastructure, a citizenry that is willing to obey traffic laws, and traffic police who aren't corrupt.

Yes, there would be problems... but the advantages of this system negate many of them. Unfortunately, very few people are honest enough to obey laws simply because they are the right thing to do. That's why there are traffic tickets and fines.

Once the electronic readers are in place (and placed beside all the cameras currently installed,) it needs no 'on-street' police to monitor the system. We know that the citizenry will not be 'willing' to obey, but as is already happening to those who have violated traffic laws on camera, they will not be able to re-register their vehicles at the end of the year without paying off their fines. With enough fines accruing, confiscation of vehicles will turn many scoff-laws into very law-abiding citizens. It might take 2-3 years of in-use program, but by then enough folks will get the message and either pay for a monthly or yearly pass, or stop driving private cars into town, significantly reducing the congestion on city streets.

The Singapore system is good and has different costs for different times of day. It uses an electronic device on the dash of every car enabeling automatic debit.

Very very difficult to do in Chiang Mai. Fai dap

Yes, the same electronic system that I mentioned in my first post...

"The same sort of electronic E-Zpass system in use for bridges, tunnels, and highways in other countries allows daily commuters, taxis, buses, etc., access."

Why do you think it would be 'very very difficult' to do in Chiang Mai? All it takes is sensors located over the main streets into town to reduce the traffic considerably. Sure, there will always be some petty sneak-thieves using the smaller sois just as there are now, but random police checks as they do now for helmets would handle that.

There's another thing that it requires - for 100% of vehicles to be fitted with electronics compatible with the ERP system. In Singapore they were easily able to do that by a Government mandate, but if you can't do that, then you'd either need to make a provision to manually collect road fees from vehicles that lack the electronics, or strongly enforce an exclusion of such vehicles from the ERP zones.

Edited June 6, 2015 by suzannegoh

[recom273]

It's wouldn't just be in CM, I think this is quite a complicated problem.

Towns and cities in the west are carefully planned, to place hospitals with maximum access routes.

We all know in the west that when we see a blue flashing light it means someone is in trouble - and it's against the law to obstruct. I don't even think there is a law here concerning emergency vehicles.

Who are these people that drive - trained professionals ? - I doubt it. They could be fire crews or police - but also there is a chance they are private individuals with some flashing lights who thinks he's more important than anyone else. How many times is it some local government official with a hired police escort. If it's an emergency vehicle, then is it a over-melodramatic rescue vehicle or a private ambulance who just wants to get the job over, collect his commission and chase the next auto accident. There are equally probably no laws against the use of flashing lights, sirens and accident liability here.

Procedure, congestion tax, no right turns - who are you kidding, these people can't even stop at a red light, that's not hard is it - red in nature means danger / stop - in Thailand it means three cars have just driven through, if I tag on the end I should get through, no worries.

[masuk]

It's wouldn't just be in CM, I think this is quite a complicated problem.

Towns and cities in the west are carefully planned, to place hospitals with maximum access routes.

We all know in the west that when we see a blue flashing light it means someone is in trouble - and it's against the law to obstruct. I don't even think there is a law here concerning emergency vehicles.

Who are these people that drive - trained professionals ? - I doubt it. They could be fire crews or police - but also there is a chance they are private individuals with some flashing lights who thinks he's more important than anyone else. How many times is it some local government official with a hired police escort. If it's an emergency vehicle, then is it a over-melodramatic rescue vehicle or a private ambulance who just wants to get the job over, collect his commission and chase the next auto accident. There are equally probably no laws against the use of flashing lights, sirens and accident liability here.

Procedure, congestion tax, no right turns - who are you kidding, these people can't even stop at a red light, that's not hard is it - red in nature means danger / stop - in Thailand it means three cars have just driven through, if I tag on the end I should get through, no worries.

On the subject of a lot of folk not really knowing the traffic rules,: I have just read the latest edition of Chiang Mai City Life. There is a large article on Thai road safety.

The editor of the magazine states that she didn't even know until now that there is a 60km speed limit in the city.

In countries where we have been taught to observe traffic laws, we know that the speed limit in most cities is 60km, and in residential areas in Australia it is 50kmh.

Highways out of the city are often 90kmh (I have seen a single, solitary sign in Chiang Mai to this effect), and 110kmh on the open road.

I feel that correctly controlled and policed traffic has a higher priority than moving umbrellas off beaches in the south.

[Dante99]

Folkguitar:

Difficulties:

It requires working sensors in all vehicles (cost?) and what about the visitors and rural people?

Vehicle sensors debit accounts requiring sophisticated (for here) software.

Continuous electricial supply is needed, no periods of power down. When will we get that?

Money for all that might be better spent for education or something else.

It requires a user group that can be systematized and Thailand is not strong at that.

It could be done but I remember the cable car to Doi Suthep, plan 1, plan 2, ....

Enjoy, good man. Did you ever take that ride through Phayao to Nan?

[Pdavies99]

I am sorry to say that Thais in general do not care about anyone other than themself.

It is with regret that I state this, but look around, this principle applies in most actions in a Thais life.

So to think a westerners thought pattern would work here, is a non- starter!

Sorry!

The emergency services are poorly assisted in Thailand, in testing circumstances, road safety comes last, the only the fact is: scoop them up and go hell for leather down the road, I truly wish them the best.

Edited June 6, 2015 by Pdavies99

[FolkGuitar]

Difficulties:

It requires working sensors in all vehicles (cost?) and what about the visitors and rural people?

Same is true in every country where this sort of electronic debiting is used. The hardware is sold cheaply in all the computer/electronic shops and is an easy installation.

Vehicle sensors debit accounts requiring sophisticated (for here) software.

No more so than sim cards that need to get topped up

It could be done but I remember the cable car to Doi Suthep, plan 1, plan 2, ....

THIS really is the crux of the problem!

Enjoy, good man. Did you ever take that ride through Phayao to Nan?

Yes... but you are two trips behind! We rode along the Lao border on that trip, along the Burmese border by Doi Angkhan on another trip, and yet another trip through national parks to the south of Chiang Mai. There is some mighty fine motorcycle riding to be had in this here Land of Smiles!

[stevensg]

Can be done by using tolls easy pass, the sensors and cards use by toll way.

[ChiangraiTony]

A couple of things come to mind when I'm reminded about this type situation as described by the OP. Fascination, and the story about the boy who called Wolf. Not only in Thailand but everywhere I've traveled there are many that have a fascination. There are those that will run to see an emergency situation. They have little understanding let alone compassion to understand that their very act is aiding to the delays, congestion, confusion and yes, even the loss of life. The boy who called Wolf. Many emergency vehicle operators cry Wolf. They turn on their flashing lights only for us to see them trying to make their way through traffic even when there is no emergency. Pedestrians and other drivers see this once, and they see this twice, and then they see this again and again and soon they lose trust and no longer heed the warnings. When the real emergency (Wolf) shows itself the pedestrians and other drivers neglect to obey. It then becomes a difficult situation to change this type behavior. In this day with the camera cell phones and cameras connected to other devices, everyone seems to want to get in the picture. Their focus becomes a selfish one. They even try to see how quickly they can post to facebook. This is a clear example displaying a lack of respect for others and for other human life.

Strong leadership, education, commitment are just some of what ingredients need to become part of the equation to begin to address this. The value of others are sometimes not recognized except only when it touches us personally.

For those that feel strongly about seeing a more positive change, maybe a good start would be to visit the CM city Mayors office. It must start with the leaders. They need to first recognize the problem and be willing to commit to making change in an effective way. It must start there with the leaders.

I admit, being a foreigner and seeing first hand that lives are being lost due to others not being more considerate and their lack of common sense is scary to say the least. Especially when you reflect on yourself and if you ever have to encounter an emergency where you need to get to the hospital quickly. It's unfortunate and sometimes a reality that we too could not make it there to the hospital due to the lack of other people carring and understanding. This is the condition here in Thailand. Scary indeed.

To make the change effective it must be comprehensive. Everything needs to be considered. The solution must extend to schools as well. This preventable situation can be corrected and solved but like most things will take time.

Count me in on any real viable solutions. I myself support any positive change but it must be sustainable and totally supported by the city's leadership.

[Mapguy]

Well here is a can of worms!

Congestion tax like anywhere else - fail.

Extra lanes - could work but hard to implement. And red truck only lanes, forget that they make their own lanes enough already.

The whole thing about Chiang Mai is that it is there already, and without bulldozing the whole place and starting again. then seriously, all you've got to do is work with what you have. It's not the worst. Things like making Nimman a clearway between 4pm and 8pm, with cars being towed away instead of clamped and still blocking lanes.

Tourists, Chiang Mai has lots and that will not change, so deal with it. Many of those tourists come from places with very different driving conditions, they forget they need to drive Chiang Mai style.

And there are so many other points you could make!

And you have made some good points. One-size-fits-all solutions don't work. Huay Kaew or the Doi Saket Road from the Superhighway are classic traffic bottlenecks where passing cars is practically impossible under current practices. Opposite lane passing, again where possible, usually near intersections, might end up working, but significant re-education and enforcement of emergency vehicle right-of-way IMO has to precede that.

And, just for a tickler, emergency vehicles don't stand out much beyond how normal delivery vans look --- even when the lights are flashing --- and they don't make enough noise!! Sometimes they seem to sneak up on you! Some decent klaxons might help quite a bit.

[rwill]

You really expect this in a country where regular lanes are used for turning, turn lanes are used to go straight, stopping at a red light will get you rear ended, you are expected to make U turns in the middle of busy highways. 50% of motorcycles that apparently can't even afford the 30 baht or so for a light bulb. ???