Families: No justice in Israeli inquiry on Gaza beach deaths

[geriatrickid]

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

My comment points out the double standard applied. Howver, let's deal with the legal issue at hand. You want to push the legal aspect fine. The burden is upon you, the accuser, to show that a crime occurred. You ask, how do I know that the children were encouraged to play there? I base my opinion on past activity of Hamas and its use of human shields and the location of militarized activities embedded within "civilian" areas, whether it be residences, homes, hospitals, or schools. How do you know the children were not allowed to play in a militarized area.

You state that the the facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was. How were these "facts" established"? Who provided these facts? Hamas? Hamas has a history of lying and does not allow any questioning and certainly does not allow inquiries., so please tell me how you established these "facts".

Nothing I said was off topic, smoke and mirrors. The reality is that many people who could be classified as non combatants have died in the past year. It is disingenuous to come and beat your chest and say Israel bad, Israel make crime, Israel killer, when Hamas has been killing its own for years and the Egyptians pacified their border a few months ago. And yet, you ignore all that, instead choosing to rain down accusations on a country under constant attack from Gaza. Back up your claim with some actual facts and not the fabricated crap that Hamas puts out.

Edited June 14, 2015 by geriatrickid

[Jingthing]

Pallywood staged "atrocities" are a real thing. This was real dead kids but yeah who knows what happened. We also know that Hamas murders their own people. We also know a key Hamas tactic is to whip up hostility towards Israel. Modern wars are fought with weapons and PR. Israel won on weapons. Hamas won on PR.

[sirineou]

Pallywood staged "atrocities" are a real thing. This was real dead kids but yeah who knows what happened. We also know that Hamas murders their own people. We also know a key Hamas tactic is to whip up hostility towards Israel. Modern wars are fought with weapons and PR. Israel won on weapons. Hamas won on PR.

Wow a new low!!!

now suggesting the Palestinians are killing their children to make the Israelis look bad.

Incredible!!!!!!

[Jingthing]

The bigger picture.

Some background on the recent war in question.

Israeli Gaza war report defends IDF actions, fingers Hama
...

Containing dozens of pictures and primary Palestinian and Israeli military sources, the report makes an elaborate case for Israel, arguing that the army went beyond requirements of international law to protect civilians. It reveals for the first the elaborate orders given by IDF commanders to combat soldiers to ensure no civilians were present in the targets they were about to attack.

At the same time, the report attempts to show how Hamas and Gaza’s other armed factions intentionally violated the laws of armed conflict and committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.
...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-gaza-war-report-defends-idf-actions-fingers-hamas/

Edited June 14, 2015 by Jingthing

[Seastallion]

The bigger picture.

Some background on the recent war in question.

Israeli Gaza war report defends IDF actions, fingers Hama

...

Containing dozens of pictures and primary Palestinian and Israeli military sources, the report makes an elaborate case for Israel, arguing that the army went beyond requirements of international law to protect civilians. It reveals for the first the elaborate orders given by IDF commanders to combat soldiers to ensure no civilians were present in the targets they were about to attack.

At the same time, the report attempts to show how Hamas and Gaza’s other armed factions intentionally violated the laws of armed conflict and committed war crimes and crimes against humanity.

...

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-gaza-war-report-defends-idf-actions-fingers-hamas/

All the IDF have to do is release all the recordings made during the attack and not only would the condemnation stop, but several journalists would get the sack.....AND Palestinians would receive a whole lot less sympathy, AND Israel would get a whole lot more support......The IDF know this, and it would be a MAJOR triumph in the bigger picture.....so why don't they release the footage (with audio)???????

[Steely Dan]

Pallywood staged "atrocities" are a real thing. This was real dead kids but yeah who knows what happened. We also know that Hamas murders their own people. We also know a key Hamas tactic is to whip up hostility towards Israel. Modern wars are fought with weapons and PR. Israel won on weapons. Hamas won on PR.

Wow a new low!!!

now suggesting the Palestinians are killing their children to make the Israelis look bad.

Incredible!!!!!!

Don't you think a couple of extra exclamation marks would show even more outrage? It is established fact that Hamas murder their own to further their aims. Amnesty international recently accused them of over twenty summary executions of Fatah members during the first hours of operation Cast lead. Make of it what you will but as of today the source I gave is experiencing a denial of service attack, the home page replaced by a photo with the words God hates Jews on it. It certainly looks like someone has something to hide.

[Linky]

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

My comment points out the double standard applied. Howver, let's deal with the legal issue at hand. You want to push the legal aspect fine. The burden is upon you, the accuser, to show that a crime occurred. You ask, how do I know that the children were encouraged to play there? I base my opinion on past activity of Hamas and its use of human shields and the location of militarized activities embedded within "civilian" areas, whether it be residences, homes, hospitals, or schools. How do you know the children were not allowed to play in a militarized area.

You state that the the facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was. How were these "facts" established"? Who provided these facts? Hamas? Hamas has a history of lying and does not allow any questioning and certainly does not allow inquiries., so please tell me how you established these "facts".

Nothing I said was off topic, smoke and mirrors. The reality is that many people who could be classified as non combatants have died in the past year. It is disingenuous to come and beat your chest and say Israel bad, Israel make crime, Israel killer, when Hamas has been killing its own for years and the Egyptians pacified their border a few months ago. And yet, you ignore all that, instead choosing to rain down accusations on a country under constant attack from Gaza. Back up your claim with some actual facts and not the fabricated crap that Hamas puts out.

So you have no proof the kids were there because Hamas wanted them there. Glad that conspiracy is sorted.

You ask who provided the facts that Israel bombed those kids but didnt know who it was.

Fact, Israel bombed children.

If Israel did know who it was bombing then they intentionally bombed children. Disgusting abhorrent behaviour and a war crime.

Or

Israel did not know who was there but bombed it anyway. War crime.

So which war crime would you prefer?

The rest of your post is off topic.

Edit: the fact that the kids were bombed is admitted. So nothing to do with what Hamas has or hasnt said. It is a fact.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Linky

[arjunadawn]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

[Pakboong]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

I found this post refreshing and I have no love for Israel. I do however, have a love for the truth no matter how ugly it might be.

[Linky]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

Rubbish. The OP is about Israel bombing children. There is no evidence to suggest the kids were shields. Deflection is all the apologists are trying.

But but but hamas did something. Nope the topic is not hamas, it is the bombing of children, something apologists are trying to lay blame on others. Its pathetic the way some are trying to justify it.

[Linky]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

I found this post refreshing and I have no love for Israel. I do however, have a love for the truth no matter how ugly it might be.

If you murder someone good luck with your defence that others have done it and got away with it so should you.

[Seastallion]

Clearly killing those kids on the beach was a war crime.

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

Seriously? The sun rising tomorrow as it has in the past? A billion billion times vs a small number of rumoured events, thus translating to likelihood?

Your disingenuous analogy could equally...actually be better used... to say we don't know Israel deliberately knowingly targeted the kids.

[arjunadawn]

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

Rubbish. The OP is about Israel bombing children. There is no evidence to suggest the kids were shields. Deflection is all the apologists are trying.

But but but hamas did something. Nope the topic is not hamas, it is the bombing of children, something apologists are trying to lay blame on others. Its pathetic the way some are trying to justify it.

That you state the OP is about Israel bombing children shows the narrow scope from which you consider this issue. The OP is most definitely about the fair and objective statement I made above: "Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice."

I never mentioned Hamas one time, though it is fair that was implied. To consider justly whether the nature of the deaths one has to have scope. If not, we are really only an assault element using justice to leverage war upon Israel. I do lay blame upon Hamas the same way I lay blame upon the entire psychology of war against Israel- using bodies, using human shields, etc. I remain correct in that, without straying too far, it is natural tendency to consider regional values and equal justice when evaluating such things. Israel should be held to a higher standard because it is a democracy. However, Israel is the only player in the region held to a standard comparable to an enlightened people.

It is a strawman to suggest I am trying to justify anything. You build that premise and struck it down. It exists solely in your own mind. I did no such thing.

[arjunadawn]

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

Seriously? The sun rising tomorrow as it has in the past? A billion billion times vs a small number of rumoured events, thus translating to likelihood?

Your disingenuous analogy could equally...actually be better used... to say we don't know Israel deliberately knowingly targeted the kids.

Hrmm, I think this is fair. I do not have this perspective, but I do see how others could equally make the point you note above.

Edited June 15, 2015 by arjunadawn

[Linky]

And on what legal basis do you make your claim? You haven't got a pot to piss in.

The politically correct comment for me to make is, oh my what a tragedy. Unfortunately, the realist in me knows that these "children" who should have not been allowed anywhere near a military compound, were encouraged to hang around because they were valuable as shields. That's how Hamas works. The politically incorrect statement for me is to say I don't care anymore. Gaza is one big welfare state created by the locals own political selfishness and laziness. Generations have made a comfortable living not working and collecting generous financial benefits from the west and wealthy gulf states. T

he Egyptians loathe and detest these people with good reason. Unlike the Israelis, they don't cower in and hide in fear. When Hamas murdered 31 Egyptians last year, the Egyptians bulldozed hundreds of Gaza dwellings and kicked ass Along with digging up many of the tunnels they also sent some dead bodies back to the Hamas leadership. The Egyptians didn't have any inquiries or worry about the western press. Maybe Israel needs to ask the Egyptians to come take over their border security. At least then no one be crying crocodile tears when the Egyptians pacified the border.

When Turkey machine guns down refugees on its border, no one demands a war crime trial. When Iran kills Afghanis including women and children who are trying to cross its border, no one demands a war crime trial. Where are the war crimes trial demands against Hizbollah, Iraq, Libya, Algeria, Tunisia, and Saudi Arabia as all are currently involved in brutal armed conflict in which children are either participating or are injured.

More deflection. But but but but.

I'll give you a hint, this thread is about Israel.

How do you know the children were encouraged to play there? Again more grasping at straws.

The facts are that Israel bombed those kids when they had no idea who it was.

Everything else you say is off topic and smoke and mirrors.

There were no "buts" in the preceding post. Is this stuttering?

This thread is about Gaza and Israel and deaths and justice. We do not know that children were encouraged to play there, just like we do not know for sure that the sun will rise tomorrow. Since the sun always has risen in the past it is a reasonable inference to presume it will rise in the morning. It may not rise tomorrow, but it would contrary to human nature to assume that today.

Off topic? One way to look at it. However, it is evident from countless OPs that whenever a discussion about Israel takes place in one manner or another there is a contextual effort to put it all in perspective. That this effort seeks to establish just observation based on the observation of other, similar, regional actors and similar behaviors, it is fair to provide that context by looking through a larger keyhole. This would be the basic mechanics of human reason- to broaden observation to increase accuracy in perception. To deny this human tendency is itself "smoke and mirrors."

Seriously? The sun rising tomorrow as it has in the past? A billion billion times vs a small number of rumoured events, thus translating to likelihood?

Your disingenuous analogy could equally...actually be better used... to say we don't know Israel deliberately knowingly targeted the kids.

Hrmm, I think this is fair. I do not have this perspective, but I do see how others could equally make the point you note above.

Make the point with not a shred of evidence.

[arjunadawn]

If I made the point, what evidence is needed? Thank you for affirming that.

[Jingthing]

Don't forget the larger agenda to push "war crimes" trials on Israel completely out of balance to what Hamas does, and many others much worse in the world today.

The agenda is quite clear. The agenda is to end Israel. The agenda of Hamas is to end Israel. It's in their charter. The agenda of the core leadership of the BDS movement is to end Israel. Yes, it is a fact, they ARE picking on the Jews. Israel not only MUST defend against rockets from Gaza (now re-arming and re-tunneling) but also must defend against a very organized propaganda movement to end its existence. That is the context of this kind of news story.

You know there is also an underlying RACISM against Arabs on the anti-Israel unbalanced obsession. The subtext is Gaza people are Arabs ... as the Israel demonizers would think ... we expect them to be terrorists and do war crimes and murder their own children. No war crimes trials for them. But Israel is Jews ... we expect them to be civilized.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

Don't forget the larger agenda to push "war crimes" trials on Israel completely out of balance to what Hamas does, and many others much worse in the world today.

The agenda is quite clear. The agenda is to end Israel. The agenda of Hamas is to end Israel. It's in their charter. The agenda of the core leadership of the BDS movement is to end Israel. Yes, it is a fact, they ARE picking on the Jews. Israel not only MUST defend against rockets from Gaza (now re-arming and re-tunneling) but also must defend against a very organized propaganda movement to end its existence. That is the context of this kind of news story.

You know there is also an underlying RACISM against Arabs on the anti-Israel unbalanced obsession. The subtext is Gaza people are Arabs ... we expect them to be terrorists and do war crimes and murder their own children. No war crimes trials for them. But Israel is Jews ... we expect them to be civilized.

Of course you are correct. Even when one takes an objective position to even comment on generally stipulated facts there arouses in posters venom. I tend to side with Israel, though not always, because I have a keen grasp of what faces Israel. It is only recently I have come to realize that many posters with differing views also have a keen grasp of what Israel faces, and this is simple duplicitous if not grossly sick- not all!

Irrespective of the fundamental nature of Hamas and the various reps that purport to represent Palestinian issues, it is fair to question, probe, even indict if necessary, Israel for actions unbecoming of a state, if applicable. However, at no time should it be mitigated that Israel faces an existential threat from pretenders to representative government who have as their sole ambition the annihilation of the Jewish State and Jewish peoples.

I made a previous point about the sun always rising therefore we expect it will with regard to expecting Hamas will behave and expose innocents because they always have. Another poster pointed out that from a different perspective one could state the same about Israel. I get it. This is correct. It does not change the fact that the expectation of Hamas behavior is singularly predicated upon its past, its avowed aims, and their continued behavior to achieve this. It is widely known that throughout the islamic world, though not everywhere, muslims are seen as expendable based on the premise that what is better or best for islam is always primary, not what is best for a future Palestinian state. Therefore, it islamic foundations simply cannot be overlooked. To do so is disingenuous and for Israel and the West, catastrophic. Thus we note this tendency to subordinate the person to the furtherance of islam is observable in the tendency to use human bodies as bombs and likewise, the unwitting rationale that humans used as shields are martyrs who will receive just recompense in paradise. These are facts.

Was this the case here? I dont know for sure but it is foolhardy not to consider the fact that is is quite possible.

[jdinasia]

Sorry, but the Geneva Conventions clearly state that you have to know where your bombs are falling.

To attempt to claim self-defense because HAMAS used kids in the past as human shields doesn't meet the requirements. Israel has used kids as human shields too. Equally irrelevant when discussing rockets fired from Gaza.

[jdinasia]

Don't forget the larger agenda to push "war crimes" trials on Israel completely out of balance to what Hamas does, and many others much worse in the world today.

The agenda is quite clear. The agenda is to end Israel. The agenda of Hamas is to end Israel. It's in their charter. The agenda of the core leadership of the BDS movement is to end Israel. Yes, it is a fact, they ARE picking on the Jews. Israel not only MUST defend against rockets from Gaza (now re-arming and re-tunneling) but also must defend against a very organized propaganda movement to end its existence. That is the context of this kind of news story.

You know there is also an underlying RACISM against Arabs on the anti-Israel unbalanced obsession. The subtext is Gaza people are Arabs ... as the Israel demonizers would think ... we expect them to be terrorists and do war crimes and murder their own children. No war crimes trials for them. But Israel is Jews ... we expect them to be civilized.

Holding Israel accountable for their war crimes doesn't "end Israel" though it might see a few leaders and or senior politicians jailed or other penalties

[Linky]

If I made the point, what evidence is needed? Thank you for affirming that.

And finished off with comprehension problems.

[Linky]

From posts on this and the similar thread some apologist nutters would consider it quite acceptable for Israel to nuke the whole area so that each and every person was killed. All because of Hamas of course.

But they wont look in the mirror to consider it is also Israel's fault for continuing with the same response time and again and expecting a different outcome.

Its time Israel changed its thinking on how to resolve the mess. If it doesn't, the world will do it for them.

[Jingthing]

From posts on this and the similar thread some apologist nutters would consider it quite acceptable for Israel to nuke the whole area so that each and every person was killed. All because of Hamas of course.

But they wont look in the mirror to consider it is also Israel's fault for continuing with the same response time and again and expecting a different outcome.

Its time Israel changed its thinking on how to resolve the mess. If it doesn't, the world will do it for them.

Total garbage.

Supporting Israel's right to defend itself is not nuts.

It's the right and civilized thing to do.

Israel is a great nation and deserves to exist.

Nobody said Israel should nuke the region.

You made that up to demonize Israel.

Israel can make adjustments sure, but still always MUST defend against those dedicated to its destruction. No choice.

Then you make threats against Israel.

I get it ... you hate Israel, you're an enemy of Israel, join the club.

But posters playing lying inflammatory games as above ... nutters and nukes, OK, I've had enough. Welcome to my ignore list.

[Linky]

From posts on this and the similar thread some apologist nutters would consider it quite acceptable for Israel to nuke the whole area so that each and every person was killed. All because of Hamas of course.

But they wont look in the mirror to consider it is also Israel's fault for continuing with the same response time and again and expecting a different outcome.

Its time Israel changed its thinking on how to resolve the mess. If it doesn't, the world will do it for them.

Total garbage.

Supporting Israel's right to defend itself is not nuts.

It's the right and civilized thing to do.

Israel is a great nation and deserves to exist.

Nobody said Israel should nuke the region.

You made that up to demonize Israel.

Israel can make adjustments sure, but still always MUST defend against those dedicated to its destruction. No choice.

Then you make threats against Israel.

I get it ... you hate Israel, you're an enemy of Israel, join the club.

But posters playing lying inflammatory games as above ... nutters and nukes, OK, I've had enough. Welcome to my ignore list.

You blame Hamas for indescriminate bombing but consider it ok for Israel to do the same murdering children.

Pott and kettle

[Scott]

Please get back on the topic. One suspension has been given and more will follow if the nonsensical arguing continues.

[JockPieandBeans]

From posts on this and the similar thread some apologist nutters would consider it quite acceptable for Israel to nuke the whole area so that each and every person was killed. All because of Hamas of course.

But they wont look in the mirror to consider it is also Israel's fault for continuing with the same response time and again and expecting a different outcome.

Its time Israel changed its thinking on how to resolve the mess. If it doesn't, the world will do it for them.

Total garbage.

Supporting Israel's right to defend itself is not nuts.

It's the right and civilized thing to do.

Israel is a great nation and deserves to exist.

Nobody said Israel should nuke the region.

You made that up to demonize Israel.

Israel can make adjustments sure, but still always MUST defend against those dedicated to its destruction. No choice.

Then you make threats against Israel.

I get it ... you hate Israel, you're an enemy of Israel, join the club.

But posters playing lying inflammatory games as above ... nutters and nukes, OK, I've had enough. Welcome to my ignore list.

You blame Hamas for indescriminate bombing but consider it ok for Israel to do the same murdering children.

Pott and kettle

I tend not to get involved in these threads.

For 1 simple reason.

If a solution is to be found, both sides need to stop blaming each other to reach compromise. It is a foolish argument to blame and not admit blame yourself.

In every conflict there is wrongdoing on both sides. 2 wrongs will never equal a right. It is time for the people involved to put up and shut up and work towards a common settlement that is agreeable to both sides.

[JockPieandBeans]

Sorry, but the Geneva Conventions clearly state that you have to know where your bombs are falling.

To attempt to claim self-defense because HAMAS used kids in the past as human shields doesn't meet the requirements. Israel has used kids as human shields too. Equally irrelevant when discussing rockets fired from Gaza.

I love these people that revert to the Geneva Convention.

What does it say about indiscriminate death by suicide vest and early detonation of VBIED's ?

[jdinasia]

Sorry, but the Geneva Conventions clearly state that you have to know where your bombs are falling.

To attempt to claim self-defense because HAMAS used kids in the past as human shields doesn't meet the requirements. Israel has used kids as human shields too. Equally irrelevant when discussing rockets fired from Gaza.

I love these people that revert to the Geneva Convention.

What does it say about indiscriminate death by suicide vest and early detonation of VBIED's ?

See paragraph 2- covered there.

When discussing war crimes, what would you have people cite?

BTW - it wouldn't bother me in the least if HAMAS was brought up on war crime charges.

Both sides have committed atrocities. They deserve to be charged. Only one side, however, is occupied. It is a requirement that an occupying force protect civilians, not kill children on the beach.

[geriatrickid]

You blame Hamas for indescriminate bombing but consider it ok for Israel to do the same murdering children.

Pott and kettle

You have not substantiated your claim that Israel murdered anyone. You keep insisting that the accused prove its innocence. The burden of proof in a criminal case is on the accuser(s). There has to be no reasonable doubt. You and your cadre have not supported your claims.

[JockPieandBeans]

Sorry, but the Geneva Conventions clearly state that you have to know where your bombs are falling.

To attempt to claim self-defense because HAMAS used kids in the past as human shields doesn't meet the requirements. Israel has used kids as human shields too. Equally irrelevant when discussing rockets fired from Gaza.

I love these people that revert to the Geneva Convention.

What does it say about indiscriminate death by suicide vest and early detonation of VBIED's ?

See paragraph 2- covered there.

When discussing war crimes, what would you have people cite?

BTW - it wouldn't bother me in the least if HAMAS was brought up on war crime charges.

Both sides have committed atrocities. They deserve to be charged. Only one side, however, is occupied. It is a requirement that an occupying force protect civilians, not kill children on the beach.

Like I said. Not my argument.

Both sides need to stop the blame game, accept what has happened and move forward for the greater good.

Screaming war crimes is a useless waste of time, when it is abundantly clear that is a charge that could be levelled at both sides.