Family shocked by UK suicide bomber's reported death in Iraq

[DividendGuy]

To ABCer

I hate to burst your bubble, but the West is already doomed by their policy of allowing Muslims into their countries in large numbers. Look at what is happening now with all the Muslim boat people from around the world heading to Europe, Australia, Thailand, Myanmar etc. This is where you are getting the large numbers and then later after their numbers swell and keep swelling because we allow them to keep coming then you will see the real shit hit the fan. Eventually, the West is going to start looking like France where there are large parts of the country you can't travel to because of the safety issue. It is a simple problem to cure...just let the Christians from these Muslim countries migrate to the West and let the Muslims stay with the Muslims.

[7by7]

The parents of a suicide bomber express their shock and dismay at the action of their son. Many members here dismiss that and blame the parents for their son's act.

Do those same members blame the parents of all those who commit a crime for the actions of their children, or only when they are Muslim?

I suspect it's the latter.

The families of the women who have gone missing with their children, probably to join IS, express their shock and dismay that they would do such a thing.

Those same members here effectively call those family members liars.

Muslim groups say they want to actively join with the government in combating Islamic extremism and terrorist recruitment in the UK.

Those same members dismiss these groups efforts.

As I have said elsewhere, there is a major problem with, mainly young, British Muslims being attracted to extremism, IS and similar groups. No one can deny that.

Their reasons for so doing are probably complex, but one factor must be that they feel they are not accepted, even hated, in the country of their birth, the country of which they are citizens. Simply because of their religion.

If the attitude towards British Muslims among the general UK population is the same as that expressed by some members here in this and similar topics, then they have good reason to feel that way.

To forestall the inevitable accusation, this is not an attempt by me to excuse or apologise for them, simply to explain!

Fortunately, the vast majority of the non Muslim population of the UK does not share the views of those posters here and the Islamaphobic websites they love so much.

Fortunately, the vast majority of British Muslims know this and are doing their best to combat the extremists in their midst.

But whatever measures are taken, whoever takes them, success will never be 100% certain.

There will always be fanatics who wont accept the will of the majority and seek to use force to get their way. An example from today's news Londonderry alert: Bomb was 'an attempt to murder police officer'.

I wonder how many of those members here who blame Islam and British Muslims for the actions of Talha Asmal will also blame Catholicism and the Irish for the actions of whoever planted that bomb.

None, I expect.

Edited June 18, 2015 by 7by7

[7by7]

What is your evidence that UK mosques are grooming kids to become terrorists?

I mean real evidence, not a highly edited TV programme or the ranting of websites who believe a fatal RTC in which one out of the four drivers involved is Muslim was a jihadists attack!

Edited June 18, 2015 by 7by7

[canuckamuck]

The parents of a suicide bomber express their shock and dismay at the action of their son. Many members here dismiss that and blame the parents for their son's act.

Do those same members blame the parents of all those who commit a crime for the actions of their children, or only when they are Muslim?

I suspect it's the latter.

The families of the women who have gone missing with their children, probably to join IS, express their shock and dismay that they would do such a thing.

Those same members here effectively call those family members liars.

Muslim groups say they want to actively join with the government in combating Islamic extremism and terrorist recruitment in the UK.

Those same members dismiss these groups efforts.

As I have said elsewhere, there is a major problem with, mainly young, British Muslims being attracted to extremism, IS and similar groups. No one can deny that.

Their reasons for so doing are probably complex, but one factor must be that they feel they are not accepted, even hated, in the country of their birth, the country of which they are citizens. Simply because of their religion.

If the attitude towards British Muslims among the general UK population is the same as that expressed by some members here in this and similar topics, then they have good reason to feel that way.

To forestall the inevitable accusation, this is not an attempt by me to excuse or apologise for them, simply to explain!

Fortunately, the vast majority of the non Muslim population of the UK does not share the views of those posters here and the Islamaphobic websites they love so much.

Fortunately, the vast majority of British Muslims know this and are doing their best to combat the extremists in their midst.

But whatever measures are taken, whoever takes them, success will never be 100% certain.

There will always be fanatics who wont accept the will of the majority and seek to use force to get their way. An example from today's news Londonderry alert: Bomb was 'an attempt to murder police officer'.

I wonder how many of those members here who blame Islam and British Muslims for the actions of Talha Asmal will also blame Catholicism and the Irish for the actions of whoever planted that bomb.

None, I expect.

One would not be so quick to judge Islam for acts of violence if you could look at their book and see that it teaches against violence and tells its followers that love is the answer. But alas that is not what you find in the Koran. As they have chosen to emulate a very violent historical figure, we see that their personal acts of violence have a common root and have a precedent in their worldview.

Now with Catholicism the very opposite is true. The Bible (specifically the New Testament which modern Christians are taught to emulate as the Old was for a different time) does not encourage violence and does teach men to love even their enemies.

So when you see violence in the name of Catholicism it is obvious that the violence is not from the teaching, but from a misguided and errant follower who is very far off track. Therefore a thinking man would not connect violence with Catholicism, but with some group or individual that have lost the way.

[7by7]

From Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

Of course, there have been throughout the history of Islam those Muslims who believe waging war against the non believer is justified, but in many cases they use that justification for their own political ends, not religious ones. Just as IS and similar groups are doing today.

The same is true of Christianity. Why do you think most of the world is Christian? It's not because their ancestors suddenly saw the light, in many cases it's because Christianity was forcibly imposed on them by European conquerors.

You may find Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam? an interesting an informative read; though as it was written by a Muslim some here will dismiss it as lies.

[canuckamuck]

From Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

Of course, there have been throughout the history of Islam those Muslims who believe waging war against the non believer is justified, but in many cases they use that justification for their own political ends, not religious ones. Just as IS and similar groups are doing today.

The same is true of Christianity. Why do you think most of the world is Christian? It's not because their ancestors suddenly saw the light, in many cases it's because Christianity was forcibly imposed on them by European conquerors.

You may find Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam? an interesting an informative read; though as it was written by a Muslim some here will dismiss it as lies.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). Source

Now show me a quote from Jesus where he advocates physical violence

[7by7]

Another interesting perspective, this time from a non Muslim.

British Muslims deserve better leaders - and they'll need them, which concludes

For all of its remarkable success, British Islam has yet to find the leaders it deserves. And this matters because the war being waged by the jihadis is not just against the West but against Islam as understood and practised by millions in this country and beyond. It is tempting to believe that after almost a decade without any major terrorist attacks, things are quieting down. The reality is that we are entering a new phase of the war with Islamic extremism, one introduced by the Paris murders. And it is a war in which the voices of mainstream, moderate Muslims will be needed more than ever.

But those voices need to be heard and listened to; not ignored by the government and press.

[7by7]

Canuckamuck, a quote from The Religion of Peace; well known for it's liberal views and it's lack of bias and never quoting from the Quran or Hadiths out of context; not!

Talking of conquest and killing, how about the invasion of Canaan and the genocide of those living there by the Israelites?

Jesus may not have preached warfare and violence, but over the last two thousand years many wars have been fought and millions of people persecuted, tortured and murdered in his name!

Anyway, I'm off to work now, so will have to continue this conversation, if you wish to, tomorrow.

Edited June 18, 2015 by 7by7

[canuckamuck]

Canuckamuck, a quote from The Religion of Peace; well known for it's liberal views and it's lack of bias and never quoting from the Quran or Hadiths out of context; not!

Talking of conquest and killing, how about the invasion of Canaan and the genocide of those living there by the Israelites?

Jesus may not have preached warfare and violence, but over the last two thousand years many wars have been fought and millions of people persecuted, tortured and murdered in his name!

Anyway, I'm off to work now, so will have to continue this conversation, if you wish to, tomorrow.

People have done many things in Jesus' name, but that does not make what they do an accurate representation of His teachings. Hinckley shot Reagan for the sake of Jodie Foster But Jodie Foster was not responsible for that attack.

Christians managed to put the dark ages behind them. But your gang seems a little nostalgic about that era.

[Ace of Pop]

Education. Religions greatest enemy. How can anyone with half a brain believe this crap

[ABCer]

To ABCer

I hate to burst your bubble, but the West is already doomed by their policy of allowing Muslims into their countries in large numbers. Look at what is happening now with all the Muslim boat people from around the world heading to Europe, Australia, Thailand, Myanmar etc. This is where you are getting the large numbers and then later after their numbers swell and keep swelling because we allow them to keep coming then you will see the real shit hit the fan. Eventually, the West is going to start looking like France where there are large parts of the country you can't travel to because of the safety issue. It is a simple problem to cure...just let the Christians from these Muslim countries migrate to the West and let the Muslims stay with the Muslims.

No dividends on this one. A wasted shot.

I think I am the only one in this forum who strongly advocates segregation

[Thorgal]

To ABCer

I hate to burst your bubble, but the West is already doomed by their policy of allowing Muslims into their countries in large numbers. Look at what is happening now with all the Muslim boat people from around the world heading to Europe, Australia, Thailand, Myanmar etc. This is where you are getting the large numbers and then later after their numbers swell and keep swelling because we allow them to keep coming then you will see the real shit hit the fan. Eventually, the West is going to start looking like France where there are large parts of the country you can't travel to because of the safety issue. It is a simple problem to cure...just let the Christians from these Muslim countries migrate to the West and let the Muslims stay with the Muslims.

No dividends on this one. A wasted shot.

I think I am the only one in this forum who strongly advocates segregation

Segregation based on what ?

[ABCer]

Calm down, Thorgal, not on race, not on colour - on Religion.

There are many terms for this division. Some call it Isolationism. It is not new. I am not its inventor. It has been tested out for centuries. It actually worked. Some countries are supporting it and using it quite successfully as we speak, today.

And the added bonus is - it is not violent. It does not call for deaths of the opponents. It will actually bring back peace to human kind at a very low cost (relatively speaking).

Most people do not like the idea. But they have no choice in the matter. It is do or die.

Edited June 19, 2015 by ABCer

[7by7]

I see no one has commented on yesterday's red herring, where I posted a link to an article which came to the opposite conclusion to the one I claimed!

Which is odd, as usually any mistake I make are usually instantly leaped on by certain members.

Maybe they didn't notice, or more likely they didn't read the link.

After all, some members are not, sad to say, interested in informed debate; merely in spouting their hate and prejudice.

[Steely Dan]

For those living in an ivory tower guarded by the three wise monkeys, (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil). I put it to you that the reason why so many Muslims feel alienated is because they hate the culture and people of the Country they were born in. Outside the ivory tower we have Bradford, Dewsbury, Luton, Tower Hamlets etc etc etc.

Here Rod Liddle absolutely nails it.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/columnists/rod-liddle/9559342/how-on-earth-was-it-that-a-suicide-bomber-issued-from-savile-town-in-dewsbury/

[Steely Dan]

I see no one has commented on yesterday's red herring, where I posted a link to an article which came to the opposite conclusion to the one I claimed!

Which is odd, as usually any mistake I make are usually instantly leaped on by certain members.

Maybe they didn't notice, or more likely they didn't read the link.

After all, some members are not, sad to say, interested in informed debate; merely in spouting their hate and prejudice.

Perhaps some members concluded you were spamming with verbose posts and would continue to do so until everyone gave up and stopped posting on this thread.

[Steely Dan]

To ABCer

I hate to burst your bubble, but the West is already doomed by their policy of allowing Muslims into their countries in large numbers. Look at what is happening now with all the Muslim boat people from around the world heading to Europe, Australia, Thailand, Myanmar etc. This is where you are getting the large numbers and then later after their numbers swell and keep swelling because we allow them to keep coming then you will see the real shit hit the fan. Eventually, the West is going to start looking like France where there are large parts of the country you can't travel to because of the safety issue. It is a simple problem to cure...just let the Christians from these Muslim countries migrate to the West and let the Muslims stay with the Muslims.

No dividends on this one. A wasted shot.

I think I am the only one in this forum who strongly advocates segregation

Only?

@Transam,

The link you posted contained the following;- The question is how to people arrive at this worldview? (The Caliphate)

The answer is of course simple, by reading the Quran, Suras and Hadiths and following what they say literally. When a western government arrives at this answer effective policies are then possible.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Steely Dan

[7by7]

I see no one has commented on yesterday's red herring, where I posted a link to an article which came to the opposite conclusion to the one I claimed!

Which is odd, as usually any mistake I make are usually instantly leaped on by certain members.

Maybe they didn't notice, or more likely they didn't read the link.

After all, some members are not, sad to say, interested in informed debate; merely in spouting their hate and prejudice.

Perhaps some members concluded you were spamming with verbose posts and would continue to do so until everyone gave up and stopped posting on this thread.

Am I surprised that you feel those with whom you disagree should be ignored, maybe even silenced?

No.

You, obviously, are not interested in informed debate!

The overwhelming majority of British citizens, of all ethnicities and religions, do not live in ivory towers; they live in the real world, in the real UK . Many may be too busy with their everyday lives, or simply to lazy, to do much or take much interest; but most understand there are problems and want solutions to those problems.

Some fall for the hysterical hype from one side or the other; but most are far to intelligent to take the rants of the hatemongers like Pamela Gellar, Anjem Choudray etc. seriously.

I wish the same could be said of certain members here.

[thaibeachlovers]

"Peace loving law-abiding British muslim family"? That they may be but obviously this lad/idiot did not have the same way of thinking..

There is a very serious problems in parts of Yorkshire.

The hub of grooming gangs.

Other news from today.

Three sisters from Bradford are feared to have travelled to Syria with their nine children after going on a pilgrimage to Saudi Arabia.

The sisters and their children, aged between three and 15, were due back in the UK on Thursday, Khan Solicitors said on behalf of the family.

Ten are thought to have boarded a flight to Istanbul in Turkey on 9 June.

Lawyer Balaal Khan confirmed concerns about them "travelling to Syria". West Yorkshire Police is investigating.

Allegedly

According to the solicitors, it is thought the group travelled to Syria where a brother of the three sisters is understood to be fighting with extremists. It is feared they have met up with him.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-leeds-33140851

By all means encourage as many as possible to visit Syria and then withdraw their passports so they can't come back. That sort is not wanted in the west.

[thaibeachlovers]

To ABCer

I hate to burst your bubble, but the West is already doomed by their policy of allowing Muslims into their countries in large numbers. Look at what is happening now with all the Muslim boat people from around the world heading to Europe, Australia, Thailand, Myanmar etc. This is where you are getting the large numbers and then later after their numbers swell and keep swelling because we allow them to keep coming then you will see the real shit hit the fan. Eventually, the West is going to start looking like France where there are large parts of the country you can't travel to because of the safety issue. It is a simple problem to cure...just let the Christians from these Muslim countries migrate to the West and let the Muslims stay with the Muslims.

You must of not noticed, but Australia has stopped the boat people arriving on Australian shores- the only western country with any sense.

Europe is lost if they don't wake up soon to what is happening.

[Jay Sata]

If the conservative ultra Muslim migrants in the UK are not happy with the decadence they see around them and would like to enjoy a life with those like minded can I suggest migrate to northern Pakistan or Bangladesh?

I risk upsetting a few here when I say that Burma and Australia can see the end result and do not want these exteme believers in a book of mumbo jumbo causing trouble and strife.

As for those trying to claim asylum in the UK then I suggest giving them a few acres on South Georgia in the Falklands

where they wont have to worry about ISIS.

[Jay Sata]

Comparisons can be drawn between the white sink estates where uneducated scroungers live to breed and live off the state with the sort of familys that breed these ISIS terrorists. In the case of the former feckless fathers and mothers raise kids who often fail to attend school and grow up to roam the streets in packs. A life of petty crime and breeding more feckless kids is the result.

In the case of the so called Muslim grooming gangs most came from homes where the parents were uneducated and had no desire to motivate their children. Economic migrants from poor parts of Pakistan leaving their homeland for the welfare state of the UK but with no desire to integrate.

The only form of discipline or structure they have is belief in the afterlife and the teachings in the mosque.

Sadly this means that in their minds any non believer is a second class person not worthy of respect.

Yasmin Alibi Brown,herself a Ugandan asian sums it up pretty well here.

The rapists are all probably considered very good Muslims, praying and fasting in the daytime, then prowling and preying at night on girls they think of as barely human. I remember once writing a story on bounty hunters in Bradford, men who were capturing Asian girls and women who had fled to refuges and getting paid thousands of pounds by the families. In one taxi a young chap, born in Britain but of Kashmiri heritage. He had a tasbi ( Islamic rosary) hanging on the mirror. Yet he was a proud pimp. As we drove around I was reminded of the murderous morality of the anti-hero in the film Taxi Driver. He was furious about young Asian girls on the streets and wanted them to be kept indoors and he believed he was a good man because in his business he only used white women, cheap and easy will go with anyone he informed me, not like us.

These men- and there are many of them- are filled with fear and hatred of females, only understand coerced sex and are convinced that white women in particular deserve no respect and can be used with impunity. Sexism and racism courses through their veins. One can but imagine what they actually did to the traumatised and drunk children. Prison will make no difference to their sick minds and hearts. Or to those many others out there.

source http://alibhai-brown.com/about-me/

Edited June 19, 2015 by Jay Sata

[uptheos]

I wish all radical Muslims would go to join ISIS, at least we know they won't let them come back!

[DividendGuy]

What we are all seeing is a transformation of Europe and some other countries to the Muslim faith. I know it will take time, but look at France. The governments allowing these people to come and live in the west are causing nothing but trouble for future generations of local people. The Muslim's coming into these countries have no intentions of fitting in, but in fact will try to change the culture in the countries they settle in to their own faith and values. Muslims and Christianity don't seem to be able to live in harmony because of our values so, why do we Westerners allow them in large numbers to come and cause such turmoil? Our governments are wrong to allow in so many with this exodus style approach. Is there any way out of this mess?

[Jay Sata]

Islam is like many religions in that it has normal followers and the ultra orthodox or extremists.

Just look at the bible belt in the USA with Mormons etc.

Judaism is the same with the ultra orthodox right wingers causing mischief in the West Bank but often living of the state and not integrating.

The ultra conservative Muslims in the UK and Europe have never given up their beliefs but merely moved to a part of the world where they are supported by a benevolent welfare system.

In truth if they could all get their benefits and the NHS sent to Pakistan or Bangladesh they would not be in Rotherham or any of the miserable cold wet run down parts of the the UK.

Would you?

[simple1]

From Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

Of course, there have been throughout the history of Islam those Muslims who believe waging war against the non believer is justified, but in many cases they use that justification for their own political ends, not religious ones. Just as IS and similar groups are doing today.

The same is true of Christianity. Why do you think most of the world is Christian? It's not because their ancestors suddenly saw the light, in many cases it's because Christianity was forcibly imposed on them by European conquerors.

You may find Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam? an interesting an informative read; though as it was written by a Muslim some here will dismiss it as lies.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). Source

Now show me a quote from Jesus where he advocates physical violence

In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

Based upon the mass slaughter carried out by Crusaders, if the Christian armies had been able to reach into the wider world the death and suffering would have easily equalled that caused by Islamic armies.

IMO In today’s world the Islamists are deluding Western youth & others that they are fighting for Islam, whereas the truth of the matter is the Islamist leadership is focused on power and the flow on benefits, as with any dictatorship, with a religious front. One only needs to read up on the real power players strategic objectives guiding DAESH leadership.

[simple1]

I do not believe in parental failure.

I do not believe in parental ignorance.

I do not believe in parental grief.

I do not believe in these young people innocence.

I do not believe in these young people being brainwashed by IS propaganda.

I firmly believe these young people being brainwashed by their Religion from childhood.

I firmly believe that unless Religion of Islam is banned in the West - the West is doomed.

Note: I am not calling for any sort of violence.

Why not apply to join intelligence operations in Oz or elsewhere to guide them, as their analysis of the phenomenon of youth joining or supporting Islamic extremist organisations doesn't support your opinions

[Steely Dan]

From Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

Of course, there have been throughout the history of Islam those Muslims who believe waging war against the non believer is justified, but in many cases they use that justification for their own political ends, not religious ones. Just as IS and similar groups are doing today.

The same is true of Christianity. Why do you think most of the world is Christian? It's not because their ancestors suddenly saw the light, in many cases it's because Christianity was forcibly imposed on them by European conquerors.

You may find Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam? an interesting an informative read; though as it was written by a Muslim some here will dismiss it as lies.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). Source

Now show me a quote from Jesus where he advocates physical violence

In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

Based upon the mass slaughter carried out by Crusaders, if the Christian armies had been able to reach into the wider world the death and suffering would have easily equalled that caused by Islamic armies.

IMO In today’s world the Islamists are deluding Western youth & others that they are fighting for Islam, whereas the truth of the matter is the Islamist leadership is focused on power and the flow on benefits, as with any dictatorship, with a religious front. One only needs to read up on the real power players strategic objectives guiding DAESH leadership.

The crusades were but a tiny blip in relation to the hundreds of years of Moorish invasions and slave raids that preceded them. The Holy Roman Empire was incidentally under constant threat from the Moors, little wonder then if they tagged militarism to religion. On the other hand the Islamic scriptures are an explicit and open ended call for conquest and subjugation.

[simple1]

From Top Ten Ways Islamic Law forbids Terrorism

Qur’an 6:151 says, “and do not kill a soul that God has made sacrosanct, save lawfully.” (i.e. murder is forbidden but the death penalty imposed by the state for a crime is permitted). 5:53 says, “… whoso kills a soul, unless it be for murder or for wreaking corruption in the land, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind; and he who saves a life, it shall be as if he had given life to all mankind.”

The Quran says, “But if the enemies incline towards peace, do you also incline towards peace. And trust in God! For He is the one who hears and knows all things.” (8:61) The Quran chapter “The Cow,” 2:190, says, “Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! God loveth not aggressors.”

Of course, there have been throughout the history of Islam those Muslims who believe waging war against the non believer is justified, but in many cases they use that justification for their own political ends, not religious ones. Just as IS and similar groups are doing today.

The same is true of Christianity. Why do you think most of the world is Christian? It's not because their ancestors suddenly saw the light, in many cases it's because Christianity was forcibly imposed on them by European conquerors.

You may find Are Judaism and Christianity as Violent as Islam? an interesting an informative read; though as it was written by a Muslim some here will dismiss it as lies.

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun (the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)" (Translation is from the Noble Quran) The verse prior to this (190) refers to "fighting for the cause of Allah those who fight you" leading some to believe that the entire passage refers to a defensive war in which Muslims are defending their homes and families. The historical context of this passage is not defensive warfare, however, since Muhammad and his Muslims had just relocated to Medina and were not under attack by their Meccan adversaries. In fact, the verses urge offensive warfare, in that Muslims are to drive Meccans out of their own city (which they later did). Verse 190 thus means to fight those who offer resistance to Allah's rule (ie. Muslim conquest). Source

Now show me a quote from Jesus where he advocates physical violence

In the view of many historians, the Constantinian shift turned Christianity from a persecuted into a persecuting religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence

Based upon the mass slaughter carried out by Crusaders, if the Christian armies had been able to reach into the wider world the death and suffering would have easily equalled that caused by Islamic armies.

IMO In today’s world the Islamists are deluding Western youth & others that they are fighting for Islam, whereas the truth of the matter is the Islamist leadership is focused on power and the flow on benefits, as with any dictatorship, with a religious front. One only needs to read up on the real power players strategic objectives guiding DAESH leadership.

The crusades were but a tiny blip in relation to the hundreds of years of Moorish invasions and slave raids that preceded them. The Holy Roman Empire was incidentally under constant threat from the Moors, little wonder then if they tagged militarism to religion. On the other hand the Islamic scriptures are an explicit and open ended call for conquest and subjugation.

You've ignored the points I raised

[Jay Sata]

Despite all their religious convictions and desire to please their god these people are like something from the stone age as has been demonstrated by their barbarity in Iraq and Syria.

I have just been reading about this animal from Oldham who was jailed yesterday for 16 years.

Serial abuser jailed for life

19/06/2015

A 33 year old man has today been given a life sentence, with a minimum term of 16 and a half years, at Manchester Crown Court for the physical and sexual abuse of four women over a 14 year period between 2000 and 2014.

Iqbal Ali was charged after the fourth victim was hospitalised with life threatening injuries after a sustained attack upon her in 2014, which in turn led to the three other victims being identified.

He was found guilty of 25 offences including rape, indecent assault, ABH, GBH, possession of an imitation firearm with intent to cause fear of violence and assault.

Wendy Logan, Senior Crown Prosecutor for CPS North West said: "Today Iqbal Ali has been sentenced to life imprisonment for abusing four partners over fourteen years, often lining up the next victim before his current relationship had ended.

"He inflicted systematic physical, sexual and emotional abuse upon each of them. He controlled all aspects of their lives. At times he threatened them with what they believed was a real firearm, burned them and strangled them. He took control of their money, what food they ate, where they worked and who they spent time with.

"I would like pay tribute to the courage of each of the victims of these horrendous crimes for standing up to their abuser. It is thanks to them coming forward to report the abuse to the police and by going through the ordeal of reliving their experiences during a trial that has resulted in this extremely dangerous man being brought to justice.

"Today as Iqbal Ali begins this prison sentence he must now face up to the consequences of his deplorable actions.

"The CPS and police take all cases of domestic abuse very seriously and will do all in our power to bring the perpetrators before the courts."

source Crown Prosecution Service. http://www.cps.gov.uk/northwest/cps_northwest_news/serial_abuser_jailed_for_life_/

Edited June 20, 2015 by Jay Sata