SURVEY: Should Greece be allowed to remain in the Eurozone?

[jaywalker]

Is the question really 'should Greece be allowed to say in the Eurozone?' or should it be 'does Greece gain any advantage by staying in the Eurozone?'. I suspect that the answer to both questions is probably No.

The ECB, the IMF and Germany are partly to blame for this mess. Let me make an analogy: back in the '90s and early '00s the US banks were handing out money like drunken sailors. Then, the US economy slowed and crashed and over a 10 year period (2005 to 2015), 1 out of 4 US homeowners lost their homes to bank foreclosure. Now Greece's creditors are in the same position as the US Banks were a few years ago when millions of people were defaulting on their loans. However, there is one important difference. Greece's debtors cannot kick the Greeks out of their houses and sell them off to repay the debt! These sovereign debts are basically unsecured loans and if Greece defaults, their debtors have no real recourse.

If I were in charge of Greece, I would do two things:

1.print Drachma's and have them loaded into the ATM's this morning.

2.declare bankruptcy and negotiate repayment of the loans on a basis of 20 cents on the Euro.

Exactly. Default & go back to Drachma.

Painful but I think, inevitable.

The USA will have to do it someday, probably sooner rather than later, but the drama in the EU will strengthen the USD for a few more years.

[steven100]

The Greek PM has got no intention of ever paying back the IMF or the EU or whoever they owe the billions to ...

They know they can never pay this back ....

The PM is playing a game .... he is just delaying the inevitable ... he is toying with the EU and the Germans.

Sure he wants to stay in the EU Zone and he will try to babble his way through , maybe get a rescue package ... wait another few years then the same problem arises.

It's a game to the Greek PM .......... he has no intention of paying one Euro back .... he knows his country cannot afford to pay it back.

Back to the Drakmar for you Greece .... it will happen eventually ... IMO

Edited July 9, 2015 by steven100

[steven100]

Iceland and Mexico both bravely refused to repay their loans from the IMF and World Bank.

Countries in financial difficulties deserve the cooperation and support of other nations not beating them to the ground.

Greek citizens themselves should vote by referendum to stay in the Eurozone or not. It's their choice that matters!

your joking right ??

Refuse to pay ... just bravely say no ..

yeah sure .... and how do you think the Germans, EU & IMF will take that ... ' oh that's ok ' never mind .. we are here to support you.

get real buddy.

[micmichd]

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-thb.en.html

This demonstrates the austerity effect on Euro pensions to Thailand, THB taken away from Thai economy. Actually robbed from Thai people.

[micmichd]

https://www.ecb.europa.eu/stats/exchange/eurofxref/html/eurofxref-graph-thb.en.html

This demonstrates the austerity effect on Euro pensions to Thailand, THB taken away from Thai economy. Actually robbed from hard working Thai people.

I feel no desire to be part of a system like this, not at all. EU is about to collapse anyway, question is: with a whimper or a bang?

I favour a New Deal.

Edited July 9, 2015 by micmichd

[winstonc]

Good riddance to a bunch of parasites

nice guy you are glad theres no parasites at the ecb.and in brussells ......

[wabothai]

I wished I knew !!!

[Naam]

Iceland and Mexico both bravely refused to repay their loans from the IMF and World Bank.

Countries in financial difficulties deserve the cooperation and support of other nations not beating them to the ground.

Greek citizens themselves should vote by referendum to stay in the Eurozone or not. It's their choice that matters!

no rubbish fairy tales please! Mexico has even paid back earlier than agreed and to the last cent!

Following the U.S. Congress's failure to pass the Mexican Stabilization Act, the Clinton administration reluctantly approved an initially dismissed proposal to designate funds from the U.S. Treasury's Exchange Stabilization Fund as loan guarantees for Mexico. These loans returned a handsome profit of $600 million and were even repaid ahead of maturity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso_crisis

Iceland was bailed out by the IMF in 2010 and is current with its obligations to the IMF.

[micmichd]

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/business/economy/germanys-debt-history-echoed-in-greece.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=4&referrer

Hmmh...

[connda]

I think the Greeks already made their decision with their vote. But how many people really understand the ramifications of Grexit and the approximately 4 trillion euros in debt instruments that will suddenly have a value of 'zero'. Personally, I'd like to see that house of card fall apart. Back to pitchforks and guillotines, and very nervous elites, figuratively speaking, of course.

Edited July 9, 2015 by connda

[connda]

Iceland and Mexico both bravely refused to repay their loans from the IMF and World Bank.

Countries in financial difficulties deserve the cooperation and support of other nations not beating them to the ground.

Greek citizens themselves should vote by referendum to stay in the Eurozone or not. It's their choice that matters!

no rubbish fairy tales please! Mexico has even paid back earlier than agreed and to the last cent!

Following the U.S. Congress's failure to pass the Mexican Stabilization Act, the Clinton administration reluctantly approved an initially dismissed proposal to designate funds from the U.S. Treasury's Exchange Stabilization Fund as loan guarantees for Mexico. These loans returned a handsome profit of $600 million and were even repaid ahead of maturity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso_crisis

Iceland was bailed out by the IMF in 2010 and is current with its obligations to the IMF.

They also jailed a bunch of bankers and deported the ones they couldn't jail. So, solvent and no longer under the influence of the likes of JP Morgan, et. al. Now, if the rest of the world could just understand the object lesson and follow suit. Painful. Sure, for awhile. But at the end of the tunnel stability. You ain't getting that with Keynesian economics and central banks controlling the world.

[rhodie]

30 yes votes so far, so I guess there are at least 30 Greeks on TV.

[nidieunimaitre]

Iceland and Mexico both bravely refused to repay their loans from the IMF and World Bank.

Countries in financial difficulties deserve the cooperation and support of other nations not beating them to the ground.

Greek citizens themselves should vote by referendum to stay in the Eurozone or not. It's their choice that matters!

no rubbish fairy tales please! Mexico has even paid back earlier than agreed and to the last cent!

Following the U.S. Congress's failure to pass the Mexican Stabilization Act, the Clinton administration reluctantly approved an initially dismissed proposal to designate funds from the U.S. Treasury's Exchange Stabilization Fund as loan guarantees for Mexico. These loans returned a handsome profit of $600 million and were even repaid ahead of maturity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_peso_crisis

Iceland was bailed out by the IMF in 2010 and is current with its obligations to the IMF.

They also jailed a bunch of bankers and deported the ones they couldn't jail. So, solvent and no longer under the influence of the likes of JP Morgan, et. al. Now, if the rest of the world could just understand the object lesson and follow suit. Painful. Sure, for awhile. But at the end of the tunnel stability. You ain't getting that with Keynesian economics and central banks controlling the world.

Keynesian economics? Surely you mean Friedmanian?

[ozyjon]

Greece borrowed money, had their hand out with a (Thai) smile

pay the money back you parasites, the money belongs to the

European taxpayers -me- now you bullshit for time, one

referendum after another, as the Spanish say, manhana, there

is no manhana, there is today, pay up or get out (then pay up)

but get out anyway.

[micmichd]

Greece borrowed money, had their hand out with a (Thai) smile

pay the money back you parasites, the money belongs to the

European taxpayers -me- now you bullshit for time, one

referendum after another, as the Spanish say, manhana, there

is no manhana, there is today, pay up or get out (then pay up)

but get out anyway.

or else ... ?

Edited July 9, 2015 by micmichd

[Scott]

A troll post has been removed.

[Benmart]

Greece has created her own financial problems through decades of nepotism and government mismanagement. She has tried to avoid them by borrowing more and more (and schemes like trying to sue/shame Germany into paying off their debts) instead of making fundamental changes, and has now defaulted on her debts.

The Greeks refuse to give up the posh system they've grown used to, that is (apparently) financed in large part with that borrowed money. Up to 1/3rd of working Greeks are employed by their government ! They can't tax the other 2/3rds enough to pay for that and all other functions of their government. Add to that what is a (comparatively) plush pension scheme and it's little wonder they are so far in debt that they are now in default of their obligations.

When the previous government agreed to start making changes in return for "bail out" money, the Greeks protested. Instead of tightening up their belts, accepting responsibility for their own situation and trying to make changes, they voted in a government who promised to reverse those changes and go back to "the good old days". It seems the new government's entire fiscal plan was based on trying to sue Germany for money it alleges it is owed from a bank loan it made back during World War 2 ! Even if that had of somehow miraculously happened, all it would have done is pay down some of what they currently owe, not all of it, and the debt would continue to grow as they continue to spend more than they take in.

Obviously their plan failed and the EuroZone and IMF people are getting tired of throwing money into a bottomless pit. Too many other countries have been in financial difficulties recently and needing bail outs. Too many are starting to think along the same lines - we'll just overspend and borrow more until we can't afford to pay and then demand that our debts be forgiven or there'll be another "crisis". Every time there is a crisis they know there is the possibility that the Euro will lose value and therefore drag down the economies of the more affluent members (the ones who actually pay their debts and provide the money to bail out the others).

At some point you have to draw the line. At some point these debtor countries have to start taking responsibility for their own actions. If Greece can't pay her debts now, even with all the bail-out money she's been given in the past, how on earth does she think she can afford to go it alone (i.e. withdraw from the Euro). Go the Zimbabwe route of constant currency devaluations and start printing Trillion Drachma bills that won't even buy a loaf of bread ?

As for the EuroZone, perhaps it would be better to boot Greece out as all it would really do is strengthen the Euro by having one less liability draining resources from the rest. Most of the market turmoil has probably already happened as various entities hedge their bets one way or another and all their PhD talents have determined all the various outcomes already. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and move on. Maybe that time is now.

That's just my opinion though, which is worth about as much as the ink this is printed on !

Good post and thank you for sharing your views.

It is indeed refreshing to read a post that omits the profanities, name calling and uncivil verbiage. Intelligent communication is sometimes lacking in those with illusions of grandeur, fortified with liquid refreshment.

[micmichd]

Eurozone should be converted into a European Fiscal Union first.