Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Darkknight666]

I am sorry but there is one thing, and perhaps the last for awhile, that I must say.

This has got to be the worst Media Reporting that I have seen in my life-time!

That is including the covering any news. sporting or criminal event. I am not signaling out any one newspaper here as they all seem to be the same. You get the odd article one day, where it seems biased, but the next you get someone reporting 2 sentences on big news, and 6 paragraphs that seems like you are reading his opinion and not the news at all. How many more times do I have to read that Amnesty International is investigating any wrong doings in this case but not a bloody word as to their progress. Other then trying to set up some interviews months ago.

I mean even when they get news they don't report it the way it is stated. Like no we don't have that...no it was lost...no it was used up....yes! Who told you that, we have that? Or like this last link someone provided, which I will link later again. I was just proven by a poster here, and rightly so, that when Lin went to trial in December he showed his Passport to show he was in Thailand Legally. They never did report if he was or not, as they need that space to go on about Amnesty International again. So it is left up to us to assume.

But this link today says that the 2 accused were charged with illegally working in Thailand. So does that mean that Lin was here on a tourist visa but not allowed to work, or does this mean this statement is incorrect. Why do we constantly have to be guessing what the man is trying to say? Why not say Lin was allowed to be here but not allowed to work. Isn't there job to report the news clearly and so that we all understand what he is saying, and not have to keep guessing all the time?

Or the clothes for example at the crime scene. Originally shown not scattered but not in a neat pile.Then 11 months later they are in a neat pile. It is then media reported that the first officer on the scene found them this way. Then that got changed to the 2nd Police Officer on the scene. Then it is reported he didn't say anything about how the clothes were found but rather it was the Prosecutor who said this.

Then you get the Head of Forensics on the stand for what? Nearly a whole day was it? The the news comes out then next day and all you get is a few paragraphs. Only Hannah's Blood was found on the hoe and we duplicate and general save DNA and save that for 1 to 2 years. Surely in all this time she must have said more than just that. There may be a ban on publications, but if there is say so! Surely there is no ban on saying there is one.

Just take the time of death for instance. I would bet my bottom dollar that in a way earlier News Media Report they said the time of death was between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. Then someone posted to me that it was actually 4:30 am. Which even though I didn't see that time change, I couldn't contest as he could be right. Now from this link it says 5:30 am. Jesus Christ! Is the next time I hear this is it going to be on a different day. Did the media report this incorrectly? Did the person who said this change his mind? If that is so then tell us he did and why? That is your job and what you are suppose to do!

Even us Arm Chair Quarter Backs can do a better job then Media Reports. We know David hit the AC Bar at around 2 am to meet up with Hannah. Say an hour at least for some chit chat and a beer or 2 then they would have left around 3 am. Say another 20 minutes to stroll to the rocks, and another 10 minuted before being attacked and that places this time at 3;30 am. The Rapes must have taken some time at least before she was murdered, So say 30 minutes and now you got 4:00 am as the time of death. Beach Cleaner finds bodies at 5;45 am (or close to that) and there you have. Without even seeing the bodies we could have deduced the time of death from 4:00 am to 5;30 am. So who needs media to report to us the 3 different times of death when we could have done a better job on our own.

I know I have bumped heads here with a lot of you, but please don't take this personal. I now I don't. Except for Name Calling. I know many here have very strong feelings and opinions about this case. Some justified. Some not so much. But I was only expressing my opinion to at that time, and I honestly felt like it based it on what I had read in the media, reporting about this case, and from the evidence they were said to be holding.

At the moment I have very little faith in the News Media Reporting this case. If you have to go to a Human Rights Activist to get your news, you should know something is wrong right from the start. This is not meant to be an insult to these people as I am sure they have a good place in society. I am merely pointing out that it would be difficult for them to be biased when I think news reporting should be,

I honestly don't know how you guys feel about what has been reported on this case, but I know how I feel about it.

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/families-hear-gruesome-details-as-trial-for-thailand-murders-of-two-british-tourists-begins/story-fnh81fz8-1227434677803 . .

.

I agree that the coverage of what's actually been taking place in the courtroom has been minimal. It's hard to decipher how the case it being argued when all we get are soundbites or a short synopsis. It also doesn't help when journalists are obstructed ie: not being allowed to take notes , translators threatened off the job.

I don't really think you can deny that the police have made a pigs ear out of this case and in typical Thai fashion instead of accepting culpability have deflected criticism and dug a rather large hole for themselves.I find your arguments often rely on the ability to take the polices word as gospel. It's common knowledge here that RTP are notorious for conspiring to subvert justice to suit their nefarious agendas. I think you mean well but are just naive to the realities of dealing with Thai police, no offence. Nobody knows who did this but people are right to question the evidence as it has been shown time and time again that the police here do not always apply justice in a way would be considered fair by international standards.

I do admit that I tend to defend one basic principle here, which is not what people think. What I strongly believe, referring only to this particular case, is that this rape and murders is not a cover-up nor where they looking for scapegoats that took 2 weeks to find. This case has had International Media Attention for the day this happened. It has involved some very High Ranking Police Officials and also including the Top Man in Thailand and the Top Man in the UK, and the Top Man in Myanmar.

Even then, if it was only their word against the word of the accused, as it appears to be right now with the alleged forced confessions, it isn't. The Prosecution has reported through the Media (if you can believe that) a strong and convincing case once all the evidence comes out. In particular 5 items. I have not seen or heard anything from the Defense Side so far except rumors and poking holes in the Prosecutions case. But all this evidence both sides they claim to have will have to come out in court.

So I just don't believe it is a cover-up. Does that make me so unreasonable and worthy of name calling? That I don't believe 2 police men would take a swab and place the 2 accused sperm (heaven knows how they would get that) inside of Hannah. That the entire Forensic Lab Team is falsifying evidence. That the Prosecutor would submit evidence of crucial DNA tests but not have the paper work to back them? And this list goes on.

Do they have the wrong people? That is for the court to decide based on evidence that will be presented in the coming months and not me. But again the Prosecution appears to have a strong and convincing case against the accused.

You may not know this but I was one of the first to post here on this case and one of the first things I said was that the police should stop all transportation leaving the Island. I even explained one of my long stories how a friend of mine was on a passenger ship landing in Italy and the Police keep everyone on-board for 3 days and until a missing person was solved. I was also one of the first ones to say they should protect the integrity of the Crime Scene.

Yes, the presentation of this case seems in shambles at times. You just don't know who to believe. Not having a Translator certainly is not helping the cause but in all honesty, don't you think it is time for them to stop crying about that? The Reports first reported this about 3 weeks ago, Plenty of time to bring someone from there own country who speaks and understands Thai. Hell, there are Farangs in Thailand who can do that. Andy is one of them.

Sure I know some of the rumors of the goings on in Thailand. I have to use the words alleged as personally this never happen to me and after living their a very long time. But this case is far more serious then just paying a fine to a traffic cop so you don't have to go to the Police Station. I have also worked in countries far more corrupt than Thailand, so maybe this doesn't fizz on me as much. Where you had to slide 5 bucks in your passport to just get in the country regardless of your visa. Or in another where Gaddafi was in charge. Or yet another where we had to travel to work with a Police Escort and in Bullet Proof Buses. And this list goes on and on.

Sorry, GB, all I gained from reading that is you're quite gulible. If this were France, Germany, even the U.S. Which is also at times corrupt, I would believe the police, only slightly more. In Thailand I don't believe them 90% of the time and that's with good reason.

You've always sounded like you have the utmost faith in law and order in Thailand, and It doesn't make sense to me.

Nobody knows exactly what happened aside from those who were in the bar and on the beach that night. You choose to believe the "official" side of things and I tend to be skeptical of their every move, also with good reason.

I think you're a decent guy, Just being a bit gulibile

[GOLDBUGGY]

Very well then either someone move the clothes before he arrived (the tide was coming in), he was confused or the statement mistranslated. None of that would explain why the DNA from the two men on trial would end up inside the rape victim, which is the main piece of evidence.

see my response, below .....

That the scene of the crime was not taken care up to exacting standards is beyond dispute, but keeping in mind that this happened on a small island with only 5 policemen and no history of such crimes being committed, coupled with the location of the crime scene, on the edge of the water with a tide rising (plus the TiT factor) that not all ts were crossed and is dotted is not just unsurprising it would be surprising if it haven't had happened.

As I mentioned in my previous post the key evidence is DNA taken from inside the victim, that DNA typing was used for weeks before the men on trial were arrested so the notion that a compromised crime scene would somehow yield a DNA match is very far fetched.

Additionally,i f the phone allegedly taken from Miller, which they admit they "found" on the night of the murder is validated, IMHO, that's it for those men, they did it; there's no reasonable explanation on how both things would had come to be without them being the perpetrators.

"Additionally, if the phone allegedly taken from Miller," Sorry AleG, the "David's Phone" thing is looking less and less plausible, as each day goes by. The Daily Mail is saying as much (that it can't be shown to be David's), taken from the DM's reporter who was in court. You may recall, I said David's phone was reported to have been found ON THE BEACH the day of the murders. That's proving to be true. Plus, how do you know for sure who's phone it is? If you lost your phone, would the person finding it know it was yours? How? Do you have your name taped to the outside of it? If it's functional, I guess an inspector (more canny than any Thai inspector) could call some numbers and ask who's shown to be calling.

As for DNA. All we and the defense and judges have to go by, at this time, is just THE WORD OF THAI TOP BRASS. That's all. Thus far, no DNA has been re-examined (that we know of), the Brits haven't disclosed anything that we know of. The general public have to rely 100% on the honesty of top police brass - the same brass who have proven, over and over, that they lie. They have an agenda to shield the H's people. All their actions, including obscuring/delaying DNA re-testing, is pointed in that direction.

Not wanting to be argumentative, and just want to ask a question, but don't all mobile phones have serial numbers on the inside? I know mine does.

Even if this is damaged they must be able to put it together if they have all the pieces. If it was smashed in a plastic bag and thrown away that way then I would think they do. Match that to the Bill of Sale, which most people keep for warranty work and I would think you would have a match.

From what I read, and not saying my Media Report was better or worst then yours, they said they did not want to divulge this missing mobile phone information to the press right away as they suspected the killer(s) may still have David's Mobile Phone with them. Then it was reported by mistake or otherwise that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone they found. Which really threw a Monkey Wrench in the whole report. So who knows?

[boomerangutang]

British ambassador Kent was shown smiling and all-chummy with RTP chief - early on in the investigation. If I was the Brit ambassador, I sure wouldn't be giggling with the RTP chief and slapping him on the back like an old chum. I'd be saying, "Hey. We want to see a professional investigation. Here's an old English expression, and it's your study phrase for the week: 'Leave No Stone Unturned.' That's what your guys have to do, if they're able. If not, you're welcome to learn how to do crime investigations from a crack British team. They can be here in two days. Is that ok? "

Then I might go and tell the RTP chief about a time when a small group British and HK soldier/climbers got lost in a giant ravine in Malaysia. The Malaysians didn't have a clue about mountain rescue, so they allowed a British team to fly in on a military helicopter to lead the search. The Malaysian police made one caveat: The British experts must teach the Malaysian police all they know about mountain rescue. The Brits said, "fine', but first we've got to get cracking and rescue those boys who've been lost in that ravine for five days."

Mr Kent also has to follow diplomatic procedure, that's his job.

Like it or not, politics also plays it's part, on both sides!

That's also why I don't understand why the Thai's are going to so much trouble to protect persons of interest. And the reason this is far bigger thn taking care of the "headman" this go's far higher than him.

Thai officials didn't construct this troublesome prosecution from the get-go. It happened in stages. Similar to a poker game: one guy (RTP top brass) starts by bluffing ("the Burmeses' DNA match"). Another player (the media and T.Visa posters) call his bluff, and ante up. RTP chief is now committed to maintaining his bluff, so he has to match the ante, so he calls a press conference and claims loudly, "Nomsod's DNA doesn't match! See, we told you so. And we're not even going to send NS's DNA typing to the British. And by the way, for the same reason, we're not going to send anyone's DNA typing to the British forensics. Why should we? They already know we're doing a great job. Plus, the British are not supposed to be doing any investigative work."

The poker game continues. T.Visa posters and CSI LA show how the RTP's planted Hannah's phone at the B's shack. A day later, RTP say, "no, disregard what we said yesterday. That's not Hannah's phone, that's David's." (Now we're finding out that it's not even David's, though I said that months ago). Ante up some more, back and forth. RTP can't back down, because their lies are stacked, one upon another. And that's why this case is sucking in Thai officials all the way up to and including the self-appointed PM and even, to some extent, the British Ambassador to Thailand and the British PM. What started out as a few lies by the RTP has escalated to a giant can of worms, and all RTP can do is try to trudge onward.

It's like a rag-tag army, nearly out of ammo, still marching ahead in the mud, at night, all batteries dead in their torches, knowing their adversaries are somewhere up ahead, ready. As Andrew Jackson famously said, just before the Battle of New Orleans (War of 1812) as the British were approaching New Orleans from the south, Jackson didn't want his men to shoot too soon, "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!"

[docshock13]

I am surprised that the defense even mentioned they have critical evidence to support their case. If I had the proverbial "ace up my sleeve" I wouldn't let the dealer, house or other players know about it. I would keep mum and play my cards when the time is right.

Seems strange (given the schedule of the trial) that the defense would give the prosecution a gift like that. Unless of course, as a matter of procedure,they have to. I am unfamiliar with Thai legal\criminal procedure in terms of things like discovery etc. So I don't want to talk out of me arse. Just sharing an observation.

Maybe to get them in (more of) a panic, wondering what the "ace up the sleeve" is, and possibly forcing their hand? They have certainly not given the prosecution a "gift" in any shape or form! After the latest revelations about what should have been done by the RTP and wasn't, who knows what further surprises are in store?

Have a look at this:- http://www.dailymail...ve-outcome.html

I am just saying that from a strategic point of view, I would have just let the prosecution play out their case then hit them hard with defense evidence instead of giving them a forewarning and time to close ranks and get all of their stories straight. That being said, the witnesses for the prosecution seem to be better defense witnesses (as we all can attest to).

[Darkknight666]

British ambassador Kent was shown smiling and all-chummy with RTP chief - early on in the investigation. If I was the Brit ambassador, I sure wouldn't be giggling with the RTP chief and slapping him on the back like an old chum. I'd be saying, "Hey. We want to see a professional investigation. Here's an old English expression, and it's your study phrase for the week: 'Leave No Stone Unturned.' That's what your guys have to do, if they're able. If not, you're welcome to learn how to do crime investigations from a crack British team. They can be here in two days. Is that ok? "

Then I might go and tell the RTP chief about a time when a small group British and HK soldier/climbers got lost in a giant ravine in Malaysia. The Malaysians didn't have a clue about mountain rescue, so they allowed a British team to fly in on a military helicopter to lead the search. The Malaysian police made one caveat: The British experts must teach the Malaysian police all they know about mountain rescue. The Brits said, "fine', but first we've got to get cracking and rescue those boys who've been lost in that ravine for five days."

Mr Kent also has to follow diplomatic procedure, that's his job.

Like it or not, politics also plays it's part, on both sides!

That's also why I don't understand why the Thai's are going to so much trouble to protect persons of interest. And the reason this is far bigger thn taking care of the "headman" this go's far higher than him.

Thai officials didn't construct this troublesome prosecution from the get-go. It happened in stages. Similar to a poker game: one guy (RTP top brass) starts by bluffing ("the Burmeses' DNA match"). Another player (the media and T.Visa posters) call his bluff, and ante up. RTP chief is now committed to maintaining his bluff, so he has to match the ante, so he calls a press conference and claims loudly, "Nomsod's DNA doesn't match! See, we told you so. And we're not even going to send NS's DNA typing to the British. And by the way, for the same reason, we're not going to send anyone's DNA typing to the British forensics. Why should we? They already know we're doing a great job. Plus, the British are not supposed to be doing any investigative work."

The poker game continues. T.Visa posters and CSI LA show how the RTP's planted Hannah's phone at the B's shack. A day later, RTP say, "no, disregard what we said yesterday. That's not Hannah's phone, that's David's." (Now we're finding out that it's not even David's, though I said that months ago). Ante up some more, back and forth. RTP can't back down, because their lies are stacked, one upon another. And that's why this case is sucking in Thai officials all the way up to and including the self-appointed PM and even, to some extent, the British Ambassador to Thailand and the British PM. What started out as a few lies by the RTP has escalated to a giant can of worms, and all RTP can do is try to trudge onward.

It's like a rag-tag army, nearly out of ammo, still marching ahead in the mud, at night, all batteries dead in their torches, knowing their adversaries are somewhere up ahead, ready. As Andrew Jackson famously said, just before the Battle of New Orleans (War of 1812) as the British were approaching New Orleans from the south, Jackson didn't want his men to shoot too soon, "Don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes!"

This post nails it. It wasn't a grand plotted murder, and the cover up wasn't grand either. It started as a case on a small island many thought wouldn't get much attention. Once it took off (quite quickly,too) the police had to rush out info and made many mistakes (after Panya) ever since then they've been trying to dig out of a hole, and it hasn't worked out for them in the slightest.

I fear that now, we're at such a high level of corruption, best case is B2 being justifiably cleared, and nobody else ever investigate

[thailandchilli]

I am surprised that the defense even mentioned they have critical evidence to support their case. If I had the proverbial "ace up my sleeve" I wouldn't let the dealer, house or other players know about it. I would keep mum and play my cards when the time is right.

Seems strange (given the schedule of the trial) that the defense would give the prosecution a gift like that. Unless of course, as a matter of procedure,they have to. I am unfamiliar with Thai legal\criminal procedure in terms of things like discovery etc. So I don't want to talk out of me arse. Just sharing an observation.

Maybe to get them in (more of) a panic, wondering what the "ace up the sleeve" is, and possibly forcing their hand? They have certainly not given the prosecution a "gift" in any shape or form! After the latest revelations about what should have been done by the RTP and wasn't, who knows what further surprises are in store?

Have a look at this:- http://www.dailymail...ve-outcome.html

Yes lots of interesting points in that article, they did have a reporter there as the previous article they wrote 2 days before that was also mentioning their difficulties in getting a translator.

Again from that article another missing piece of evidence from the crime scene:

What’s more, Colonel Chiewpreecha did not know the whereabouts of a green towel that was found on Hannnah’s body, and claimed that it was not relevant as he believed it was placed on Hannah’s body after it had been discovered.

Here's the green towel in question

[boomerangutang]

When you are dealing with shysters such as the RTP you sometimes have to play them at their own game.

And maybe when the families said there was a strong case to answer, they could have been talking about the RTP rather than the Burmese. So may not have lied to anyone.

Berybert, I know we're reading from the same hymnal here, but still: When the spokesman for the two victims' families said 'they have a strong case to answer' ....he was referring to the Burmese. Don't try to sugar-coat it. That statement put wind in the sails of the half dozen posters who have since posted hundreds of posts trying to shut us doubters up, saying things like 'don't disrespect the families.' and words to that effect.

Here's another way to look at the whole ball of wax: Hannah's and David's deaths were not for naught. Hopefully, something good could ensue: When the smoke clears, the RTP may decide to be a bit less corrupt and a bit more objective and professional.

[boomerangutang]

Sorry to post so much, but looking at pics of the beach - there's a heck of a lot of blood on the sand. Did RTP just assume it was all the victims' ?

It's quite possible some others' blood was there also. Did RTP take samples and do testing? That's a bit like asking whether a Thai worker wears earplugs when operating a power tool.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I am sorry but there is one thing, and perhaps the last for awhile, that I must say.

This has got to be the worst Media Reporting that I have seen in my life-time!

That is including the covering any news. sporting or criminal event. I am not signaling out any one newspaper here as they all seem to be the same. You get the odd article one day, where it seems biased, but the next you get someone reporting 2 sentences on big news, and 6 paragraphs that seems like you are reading his opinion and not the news at all. How many more times do I have to read that Amnesty International is investigating any wrong doings in this case but not a bloody word as to their progress. Other then trying to set up some interviews months ago.

I mean even when they get news they don't report it the way it is stated. Like no we don't have that...no it was lost...no it was used up....yes! Who told you that, we have that? Or like this last link someone provided, which I will link later again. I was just proven by a poster here, and rightly so, that when Lin went to trial in December he showed his Passport to show he was in Thailand Legally. They never did report if he was or not, as they need that space to go on about Amnesty International again. So it is left up to us to assume.

But this link today says that the 2 accused were charged with illegally working in Thailand. So does that mean that Lin was here on a tourist visa but not allowed to work, or does this mean this statement is incorrect. Why do we constantly have to be guessing what the man is trying to say? Why not say Lin was allowed to be here but not allowed to work. Isn't there job to report the news clearly and so that we all understand what he is saying, and not have to keep guessing all the time?

Or the clothes for example at the crime scene. Originally shown not scattered but not in a neat pile.Then 11 months later they are in a neat pile. It is then media reported that the first officer on the scene found them this way. Then that got changed to the 2nd Police Officer on the scene. Then it is reported he didn't say anything about how the clothes were found but rather it was the Prosecutor who said this.

Then you get the Head of Forensics on the stand for what? Nearly a whole day was it? The the news comes out then next day and all you get is a few paragraphs. Only Hannah's Blood was found on the hoe and we duplicate and general save DNA and save that for 1 to 2 years. Surely in all this time she must have said more than just that. There may be a ban on publications, but if there is say so! Surely there is no ban on saying there is one.

Just take the time of death for instance. I would bet my bottom dollar that in a way earlier News Media Report they said the time of death was between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. Then someone posted to me that it was actually 4:30 am. Which even though I didn't see that time change, I couldn't contest as he could be right. Now from this link it says 5:30 am. Jesus Christ! Is the next time I hear this is it going to be on a different day. Did the media report this incorrectly? Did the person who said this change his mind? If that is so then tell us he did and why? That is your job and what you are suppose to do!

Even us Arm Chair Quarter Backs can do a better job then Media Reports. We know David hit the AC Bar at around 2 am to meet up with Hannah. Say an hour at least for some chit chat and a beer or 2 then they would have left around 3 am. Say another 20 minutes to stroll to the rocks, and another 10 minuted before being attacked and that places this time at 3;30 am. The Rapes must have taken some time at least before she was murdered, So say 30 minutes and now you got 4:00 am as the time of death. Beach Cleaner finds bodies at 5;45 am (or close to that) and there you have. Without even seeing the bodies we could have deduced the time of death from 4:00 am to 5;30 am. So who needs media to report to us the 3 different times of death when we could have done a better job on our own.

I know I have bumped heads here with a lot of you, but please don't take this personal. I now I don't. Except for Name Calling. I know many here have very strong feelings and opinions about this case. Some justified. Some not so much. But I was only expressing my opinion to at that time, and I honestly felt like it based it on what I had read in the media, reporting about this case, and from the evidence they were said to be holding.

At the moment I have very little faith in the News Media Reporting this case. If you have to go to a Human Rights Activist to get your news, you should know something is wrong right from the start. This is not meant to be an insult to these people as I am sure they have a good place in society. I am merely pointing out that it would be difficult for them to be biased when I think news reporting should be,

I honestly don't know how you guys feel about what has been reported on this case, but I know how I feel about it.

http://www.news.com.au/world/asia/families-hear-gruesome-details-as-trial-for-thailand-murders-of-two-british-tourists-begins/story-fnh81fz8-1227434677803 . .

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You really think news reports even from credible media outlets should be unbiased?? Man this is a free world, free press and the international press will in most instances run stories as they see fit, which quite rightly goes on the side of human rights violations and what is perceived to be injustice in the world.

Its not that they are being unfair, they are highlighting blunders in the investigation that could lead to miscarriage of justice.

You don't see any injustice in this case thats why your complaining at their reporting, everybody else (well almost apart from the RTP) do see the potential for a huge miscarriage of justice. Media coverage in this case can hopefully help to stop this happening.

I am sorry but yes I do think news reporting should be biased. That they shouldn't print only one side of a story they think is right. To me "Justice" is to hear both sides of the story. This is why courts have Lawyers for the Defense and Prosecutors. How would you like it if some court decided the accused was guilty and said let's save time and not bother with the Defense side? Would you call that Justice?

[Fat Haggis]

The daily mail article is very blunt and damning indeed, the RTP have a lot to answer for, oddly enough, their cheer leaders seem very quiet, very hard to defend the RTP after last weeks testimonies.

I really feel sorry for the families of Hannah and David as if this is the evidence that has the accused "a lot to answer for" they have been duped.

[thailandchilli]

. .

.

You really think news reports even from credible media outlets should be unbiased?? Man this is a free world, free press and the international press will in most instances run stories as they see fit, which quite rightly goes on the side of human rights violations and what is perceived to be injustice in the world.

Its not that they are being unfair, they are highlighting blunders in the investigation that could lead to miscarriage of justice.

You don't see any injustice in this case thats why your complaining at their reporting, everybody else (well almost apart from the RTP) do see the potential for a huge miscarriage of justice. Media coverage in this case can hopefully help to stop this happening.

I am sorry but yes I do think news reporting should be biased. That they shouldn't print only one side of a story they think is right. To me "Justice" is to hear both sides of the story. This is why courts have Lawyers for the Defense and Prosecutors. How would you like it if some court decided the accused was guilty and said let's save time and not bother with the Defense side? Would you call that Justice?

I think you missed my meaning. The press/media can see the injustice in the case, they are focusing on that as they should

[loonodingle]

It was to fit the diaries of the judges and lawyer's. Because of the long trial its not normal. Its a good thi g anyway for the defence. They are funded as well and have no concerns.

Andy's currently in the UK for a family birthday then meeting up with ??? on the Koh Tao case

Reprieve, the UK lawyers and the experts.

[Lozza]

I would like to ask JTJ, AleG and jdinasia if he is still around a question.

The prosecution said the clothes were piled neatly on a rock. Up until they showed that picture of the clothes piled neatly on a rock I have never seen it before.

What I have seen is clothes tossed all over the beach around lots of blood.

Are you saying the pictures of the clothes tossed on the beach don't exist and are a figment of a CT's mind ?

When you see things with your own eyes and then someone in a uniform tells you what you have seen doesn't exist then I think it only fair to call them liars.

blood on beach.jpg

Is this picture real or am I dreaming it ?

You have to assume that the court has not seen the picture of the scattered clothes and David's body out to sea? Otherwise that would show the first on scene policeman's testimony to be untrue.

If the prosecution choose to only show certain cctv footage to the court then I presume they also do the same with pictures (although they did say they did not have the budget to store some - what does a flash drive cost? not much more than a few rotis).

I assume the judges make their decisions based on what 'evidence' is presented to the court, which is basically anything the RTP want to show or say to try and help their story make a semblance of sense. The picture showing the scattered clothes and David in the sea - Would it have been possible for the defence to show that or do they not get to do that sort of thing?

Correct BB-David's body was out to sea he was propped up against rocks according to the RTP they believed that David had been closer to the water edge and then the killer's had noticed he was crawling back to shore so took him back out further drowned him and propped his body up.

.There's no way that he was found face down or face up in shallow water. I'll try and find a photo where you can see Davids sitting in the water-actually it appeared to me that they purposely put him there in direct line to the area where the attack began . The RTP had come to this conclusion after seeing drag marks on the sand which have been photographed and available. Now, whether the photo's are still available.. we'll see.

Also for those who do not want to see David's injuries someone up thread posted a sketch of where David was injured. Hindsight is....

[loonodingle]

I am surprised that the defense even mentioned they have critical evidence to support their case. If I had the proverbial "ace up my sleeve" I wouldn't let the dealer, house or other players know about it. I would keep mum and play my cards when the time is right.

Seems strange (given the schedule of the trial) that the defense would give the prosecution a gift like that. Unless of course, as a matter of procedure,they have to. I am unfamiliar with Thai legal\criminal procedure in terms of things like discovery etc. So I don't want to talk out of me arse. Just sharing an observation.

Theres nothing the RTP can do about the UK findings. They are coming out regardless. The RTP have no say on this. I guess its bubbled out, especially as News papers Like the Times mentioning the possibility of Gun Shot to Hannah. Someone has fed them that haven't they. No other UK news has mentioned it as far as I have seen.

Anyway I am sat on the edge of my chair waiting with baited breath.

[loonodingle]

Very well then either someone move the clothes before he arrived (the tide was coming in), he was confused or the statement mistranslated. None of that would explain why the DNA from the two men on trial would end up inside the rape victim, which is the main piece of evidence.

see my response, below .....

That the scene of the crime was not taken care up to exacting standards is beyond dispute, but keeping in mind that this happened on a small island with only 5 policemen and no history of such crimes being committed, coupled with the location of the crime scene, on the edge of the water with a tide rising (plus the TiT factor) that not all ts were crossed and is dotted is not just unsurprising it would be surprising if it haven't had happened.

As I mentioned in my previous post the key evidence is DNA taken from inside the victim, that DNA typing was used for weeks before the men on trial were arrested so the notion that a compromised crime scene would somehow yield a DNA match is very far fetched.

Additionally,i f the phone allegedly taken from Miller, which they admit they "found" on the night of the murder is validated, IMHO, that's it for those men, they did it; there's no reasonable explanation on how both things would had come to be without them being the perpetrators.

"Additionally, if the phone allegedly taken from Miller," Sorry AleG, the "David's Phone" thing is looking less and less plausible, as each day goes by. The Daily Mail is saying as much (that it can't be shown to be David's), taken from the DM's reporter who was in court. You may recall, I said David's phone was reported to have been found ON THE BEACH the day of the murders. That's proving to be true. Plus, how do you know for sure who's phone it is? If you lost your phone, would the person finding it know it was yours? How? Do you have your name taped to the outside of it? If it's functional, I guess an inspector (more canny than any Thai inspector) could call some numbers and ask who's shown to be calling.

As for DNA. All we and the defense and judges have to go by, at this time, is just THE WORD OF THAI TOP BRASS. That's all. Thus far, no DNA has been re-examined (that we know of), the Brits haven't disclosed anything that we know of. The general public have to rely 100% on the honesty of top police brass - the same brass who have proven, over and over, that they lie. They have an agenda to shield the H's people. All their actions, including obscuring/delaying DNA re-testing, is pointed in that direction.

Not wanting to be argumentative, and just want to ask a question, but don't all mobile phones have serial numbers on the inside? I know mine does.

Even if this is damaged they must be able to put it together if they have all the pieces. If it was smashed in a plastic bag and thrown away that way then I would think they do. Match that to the Bill of Sale, which most people keep for warranty work and I would think you would have a match.

From what I read, and not saying my Media Report was better or worst then yours, they said they did not want to divulge this missing mobile phone information to the press right away as they suspected the killer(s) may still have David's Mobile Phone with them. Then it was reported by mistake or otherwise that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone they found. Which really threw a Monkey Wrench in the whole report. So who knows?

They didn't follow the phone IMEI Number up probably because they knew it wasn't davids phone Why obtain information if it doesn't help your case. better to just say that's davids phone. Then we all believe it.

[loonodingle]

I am surprised that the defense even mentioned they have critical evidence to support their case. If I had the proverbial "ace up my sleeve" I wouldn't let the dealer, house or other players know about it. I would keep mum and play my cards when the time is right.

Seems strange (given the schedule of the trial) that the defense would give the prosecution a gift like that. Unless of course, as a matter of procedure,they have to. I am unfamiliar with Thai legal\criminal procedure in terms of things like discovery etc. So I don't want to talk out of me arse. Just sharing an observation.

Maybe to get them in (more of) a panic, wondering what the "ace up the sleeve" is, and possibly forcing their hand? They have certainly not given the prosecution a "gift" in any shape or form! After the latest revelations about what should have been done by the RTP and wasn't, who knows what further surprises are in store?

Have a look at this:- http://www.dailymail...ve-outcome.html

Yes lots of interesting points in that article, they did have a reporter there as the previous article they wrote 2 days before that was also mentioning their difficulties in getting a translator.

Again from that article another missing piece of evidence from the crime scene:

What’s more, Colonel Chiewpreecha did not know the whereabouts of a green towel that was found on Hannnah’s body, and claimed that it was not relevant as he believed it was placed on Hannah’s body after it had been discovered.

Here's the green towel in question

The Alllegation is that this picture proves a gun shot as theres an explosion of tissue and bone that's travelled outwards following the exit of the slug from the bullet. This is normal and expected in gunshot wounds.

[sambum]

I am surprised that the defense even mentioned they have critical evidence to support their case. If I had the proverbial "ace up my sleeve" I wouldn't let the dealer, house or other players know about it. I would keep mum and play my cards when the time is right.

Seems strange (given the schedule of the trial) that the defense would give the prosecution a gift like that. Unless of course, as a matter of procedure,they have to. I am unfamiliar with Thai legal\criminal procedure in terms of things like discovery etc. So I don't want to talk out of me arse. Just sharing an observation.

Maybe to get them in (more of) a panic, wondering what the "ace up the sleeve" is, and possibly forcing their hand? They have certainly not given the prosecution a "gift" in any shape or form! After the latest revelations about what should have been done by the RTP and wasn't, who knows what further surprises are in store?

Have a look at this:- http://www.dailymail...ve-outcome.html

I am just saying that from a strategic point of view, I would have just let the prosecution play out their case then hit them hard with defense evidence instead of giving them a forewarning and time to close ranks and get all of their stories straight. That being said, the witnesses for the prosecution seem to be better defense witnesses (as we all can attest to).

I agree with your logic if the prosecution had to play their case right out to the bitter end without a "break in play", but the case has now been adjourned. Consequently, I think the defense team has decided to give them something else to worry about during the break, apart from wondering what other holes the "investigators" can drop them in!

[Briggsy]

Many, many months ago and earlier in this thread, there was a "red light" leak broadcast on the BBC from a Foreign Office source, and pulled later on the same day, that there was convincing evidence that the Thai police investigation was severely flawed.. It appears it went unheeded.

[thailandchilli]

Many, many months ago and earlier in this thread, there was a "red light" leak broadcast on the BBC from a Foreign Office source, and pulled later on the same day, that there was convincing evidence that the Thai police investigation was severely flawed.. It appears it went unheeded.

Correct but it was actually a statement from the UK police. It did indeed go unheeded and was totally contradictory to what the victims families said in their statements despite it being the same police team who made the statement to the BBC

[Briggsy]

Many, many months ago and earlier in this thread, there was a "red light" leak broadcast on the BBC from a Foreign Office source, and pulled later on the same day, that there was convincing evidence that the Thai police investigation was severely flawed.. It appears it went unheeded.

Correct but it was actually a statement from the UK police. It did indeed go unheeded and was totally contradictory to what the victims families said in their statements despite it being the same police team who made the statement to the BBC

Police, yes, you are right.

Perhaps essentially the same.

[thailandchilli]

Many, many months ago and earlier in this thread, there was a "red light" leak broadcast on the BBC from a Foreign Office source, and pulled later on the same day, that there was convincing evidence that the Thai police investigation was severely flawed.. It appears it went unheeded.

Correct but it was actually a statement from the UK police. It did indeed go unheeded and was totally contradictory to what the victims families said in their statements despite it being the same police team who made the statement to the BBC

Police, yes, you are right.

Perhaps essentially the same.

Here's the transcript:

The Metropolitan Police says there's confusion and inconsistencies in the investigation in Thailand into the murder of 2 British tourists on the island of Koh Tao. Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were killed in September. Scotland Yard, which is observing the Thai enquiry, says there are questions about the strength of the case against the 2 men from Burma charged with murder.

This was broadcast in late December and seriously counters the families statements

Perhaps everytime JTJ quotes the families we should throw this back at him!

[davidstipek]

I am almost certain that the initial DNA tests were not performed in Thailand I think Singapore The story seems to change as it goes along

Reports since last Sept have said testing has been carried out by the Police Forensic Institute in Bangkok.

????

Were not the samples sent off to Singapore????

Because Thailand's equipment was broken....

Also does it not take 24 hrs to complete the DNA tests to get accurate results???

Who gave the authoritarian approval for the Thai Police to do any analysis and to further publish their results as being Completely accurate???

I finally had to speak-up,,, Because of some of the most Idiotic Statements being presented here.... Hoping the Public doesn't know the difference.... In any Country... "Bullshit Stinks!"

[Heisenbergg]

I would like to ask JTJ, AleG and jdinasia if he is still around a question.

The prosecution said the clothes were piled neatly on a rock. Up until they showed that picture of the clothes piled neatly on a rock I have never seen it before.

What I have seen is clothes tossed all over the beach around lots of blood.

Are you saying the pictures of the clothes tossed on the beach don't exist and are a figment of a CT's mind ?

When you see things with your own eyes and then someone in a uniform tells you what you have seen doesn't exist then I think it only fair to call them liars.

blood on beach.jpg

Is this picture real or am I dreaming it ?

You have to assume that the court has not seen the picture of the scattered clothes and David's body out to sea? Otherwise that would show the first on scene policeman's testimony to be untrue.

If the prosecution choose to only show certain cctv footage to the court then I presume they also do the same with pictures (although they did say they did not have the budget to store some - what does a flash drive cost? not much more than a few rotis).

I assume the judges make their decisions based on what 'evidence' is presented to the court, which is basically anything the RTP want to show or say to try and help their story make a semblance of sense. The picture showing the scattered clothes and David in the sea - Would it have been possible for the defence to show that or do they not get to do that sort of thing?

Correct BB-David's body was out to sea he was propped up against rocks according to the RTP they believed that David had been closer to the water edge and then the killer's had noticed he was crawling back to shore so took him back out further drowned him and propped his body up.

.There's no way that he was found face down or face up in shallow water. I'll try and find a photo where you can see Davids sitting in the water-actually it appeared to me that they purposely put him there in direct line to the area where the attack began . The RTP had come to this conclusion after seeing drag marks on the sand which have been photographed and available. Now, whether the photo's are still available.. we'll see.

Also for those who do not want to see David's injuries someone up thread posted a sketch of where David was injured. Hindsight is....

Actually, and politely.. If you look at the photo again of David where he looks propped up on the rocks, it's actually a photo of him under water. I made the same mistake myself for some time. Just look again and you'll see reflections and bubbles on the surface.

[davidstipek]

I am almost certain that the initial DNA tests were not performed in Thailand I think Singapore The story seems to change as it goes along

Reports since last Sept have said testing has been carried out by the Police Forensic Institute in Bangkok.

OK!

Since my first Post to this was BLOCKED! I will try to reword it.....

"Was not the original DNA Testing done in Singapore???"

Why and how did the Thai Police get credit and under what Authority were they even Authorized?

Does it not take 24 hrs for Lab's to complete each test of each DNA Sample for a correct comparison?

I do not know a any Country in the World where "B.S. doesn't Stink" Manure is a smelly substance regardless of where it came from....

[davidstipek]

I am almost certain that the initial DNA tests were not performed in Thailand I think Singapore The story seems to change as it goes along

Reports since last Sept have said testing has been carried out by the Police Forensic Institute in Bangkok.

OK!

Since my first Post to this was BLOCKED! I will try to reword it.....

"Was not the original DNA Testing done in Singapore???"

Why and how did the Thai Police get credit and under what Authority were they even Authorized?

Does it not take 24 hrs for Lab's to complete each test of each DNA Sample for a correct comparison?

I do not know a any Country in the World where "B.S. doesn't Stink" Manure is a smelly substance regardless of where it came from....

Yes it was... Because Equipment in Thailand at the time was Broken! I will answer this myself so I don't get trolled and subject get smothered and changed!

[davidstipek]

I am almost certain that the initial DNA tests were not performed in Thailand I think Singapore The story seems to change as it goes along

Reports since last Sept have said testing has been carried out by the Police Forensic Institute in Bangkok.

OK!

Since my first Post to this was BLOCKED! I will try to reword it.....

"Was not the original DNA Testing done in Singapore???"

Why and how did the Thai Police get credit and under what Authority were they even Authorized?

Does it not take 24 hrs for Lab's to complete each test of each DNA Sample for a correct comparison?

I do not know a any Country in the World where "B.S. doesn't Stink" Manure is a smelly substance regardless of where it came from....

Yes it was... Because Equipment in Thailand at the time was Broken! I will answer this myself so I don't get trolled and subject get smothered and changed!

I also believe there are residual samples in storage at Lab in Singapore.... This should spark some interest for a few... and maybe some fear in others...

If these do not match what was presented as Evidence in Court!

[IslandLover]

I've just read the latest daily mail article wich gives the most detailed account of Friday's trial that I've seen. The daily mail is banned in Thailand but there are ways to get round this. If you haven't read it, read it! More police incompetence or criminality,make of it what you will. If any of the morons apologists try and spin this one there will be no doubt as to their motives!

There are a few points worth mentioning from the Daily Mail article entitled "Will British backpacker murders ever be solved?

The article concerns the testimony of Investigating Officer Cherdpong Chiewpreecha (my paraphrasing):

1) He failed to confirm whether the mobile phone and SIM card found on the beach belonged to Mr Miller

2) He did not know the whereabouts of a green towel that was found on Hannnah’s body, and claimed that it was not relevant as he believed it was placed on Hannah’s body after it had been discovered.

3) He did also not know who had reported the discovery of the bodies, because the police had not logged the name of the caller.

4) He did not know whether he would have expected the clothes of the suspects to be covered in blood after the violent attack.

5) He did not know who the garden hoe that police had previously suggested was used to kill the pair belonged to.

There is much more, but you will have to read the full article.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3173235/Catalogue-police-blunders-including-failure-investigate-evidence-chase-suspects-revealed-court-judge-doubts-case-conclusive-outcome.html

[AleG]

Very well then either someone move the clothes before he arrived (the tide was coming in), he was confused or the statement mistranslated. None of that would explain why the DNA from the two men on trial would end up inside the rape victim, which is the main piece of evidence.

see my response, below .....

That the scene of the crime was not taken care up to exacting standards is beyond dispute, but keeping in mind that this happened on a small island with only 5 policemen and no history of such crimes being committed, coupled with the location of the crime scene, on the edge of the water with a tide rising (plus the TiT factor) that not all ts were crossed and is dotted is not just unsurprising it would be surprising if it haven't had happened.

As I mentioned in my previous post the key evidence is DNA taken from inside the victim, that DNA typing was used for weeks before the men on trial were arrested so the notion that a compromised crime scene would somehow yield a DNA match is very far fetched.

Additionally,i f the phone allegedly taken from Miller, which they admit they "found" on the night of the murder is validated, IMHO, that's it for those men, they did it; there's no reasonable explanation on how both things would had come to be without them being the perpetrators.

"Additionally, if the phone allegedly taken from Miller," Sorry AleG, the "David's Phone" thing is looking less and less plausible, as each day goes by. The Daily Mail is saying as much (that it can't be shown to be David's), taken from the DM's reporter who was in court. You may recall, I said David's phone was reported to have been found ON THE BEACH the day of the murders. That's proving to be true. Plus, how do you know for sure who's phone it is? If you lost your phone, would the person finding it know it was yours? How? Do you have your name taped to the outside of it? If it's functional, I guess an inspector (more canny than any Thai inspector) could call some numbers and ask who's shown to be calling.

As for DNA. All we and the defense and judges have to go by, at this time, is just THE WORD OF THAI TOP BRASS. That's all. Thus far, no DNA has been re-examined (that we know of), the Brits haven't disclosed anything that we know of. The general public have to rely 100% on the honesty of top police brass - the same brass who have proven, over and over, that they lie. They have an agenda to shield the H's people. All their actions, including obscuring/delaying DNA re-testing, is pointed in that direction.

Not wanting to be argumentative, and just want to ask a question, but don't all mobile phones have serial numbers on the inside? I know mine does.

Even if this is damaged they must be able to put it together if they have all the pieces. If it was smashed in a plastic bag and thrown away that way then I would think they do. Match that to the Bill of Sale, which most people keep for warranty work and I would think you would have a match.

From what I read, and not saying my Media Report was better or worst then yours, they said they did not want to divulge this missing mobile phone information to the press right away as they suspected the killer(s) may still have David's Mobile Phone with them. Then it was reported by mistake or otherwise that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone they found. Which really threw a Monkey Wrench in the whole report. So who knows?

Miller had two phones, one his regular iPhone (the one allegedly taken by the men on trial) and a cheaper phone that he could actually use while in Thailand since the iPhone was blocked; that's the one found at the beach.

This has been known for a long time already.

[Heisenbergg]

Very well then either someone move the clothes before he arrived (the tide was coming in), he was confused or the statement mistranslated. None of that would explain why the DNA from the two men on trial would end up inside the rape victim, which is the main piece of evidence.

see my response, below .....

That the scene of the crime was not taken care up to exacting standards is beyond dispute, but keeping in mind that this happened on a small island with only 5 policemen and no history of such crimes being committed, coupled with the location of the crime scene, on the edge of the water with a tide rising (plus the TiT factor) that not all ts were crossed and is dotted is not just unsurprising it would be surprising if it haven't had happened.

As I mentioned in my previous post the key evidence is DNA taken from inside the victim, that DNA typing was used for weeks before the men on trial were arrested so the notion that a compromised crime scene would somehow yield a DNA match is very far fetched.

Additionally,i f the phone allegedly taken from Miller, which they admit they "found" on the night of the murder is validated, IMHO, that's it for those men, they did it; there's no reasonable explanation on how both things would had come to be without them being the perpetrators.

"Additionally, if the phone allegedly taken from Miller," Sorry AleG, the "David's Phone" thing is looking less and less plausible, as each day goes by. The Daily Mail is saying as much (that it can't be shown to be David's), taken from the DM's reporter who was in court. You may recall, I said David's phone was reported to have been found ON THE BEACH the day of the murders. That's proving to be true. Plus, how do you know for sure who's phone it is? If you lost your phone, would the person finding it know it was yours? How? Do you have your name taped to the outside of it? If it's functional, I guess an inspector (more canny than any Thai inspector) could call some numbers and ask who's shown to be calling.

As for DNA. All we and the defense and judges have to go by, at this time, is just THE WORD OF THAI TOP BRASS. That's all. Thus far, no DNA has been re-examined (that we know of), the Brits haven't disclosed anything that we know of. The general public have to rely 100% on the honesty of top police brass - the same brass who have proven, over and over, that they lie. They have an agenda to shield the H's people. All their actions, including obscuring/delaying DNA re-testing, is pointed in that direction.

Not wanting to be argumentative, and just want to ask a question, but don't all mobile phones have serial numbers on the inside? I know mine does.

Even if this is damaged they must be able to put it together if they have all the pieces. If it was smashed in a plastic bag and thrown away that way then I would think they do. Match that to the Bill of Sale, which most people keep for warranty work and I would think you would have a match.

From what I read, and not saying my Media Report was better or worst then yours, they said they did not want to divulge this missing mobile phone information to the press right away as they suspected the killer(s) may still have David's Mobile Phone with them. Then it was reported by mistake or otherwise that it was Hannah's Mobile Phone they found. Which really threw a Monkey Wrench in the whole report. So who knows?

Miller had two phones, one his regular iPhone (the one allegedly taken by the men on trial) and a cheaper phone that he could actually use while in Thailand since the iPhone was blocked; that's the one found at the beach.

This has been known for a long time already.

Any iPhone in 2014 could have a burner sim, a unregistered 7-11 sim... I have no idea about his phone status, but any iPhone could receive a temporary data/call package from 7-11.

With all respect, not trying to be disrespectful.

[thailandchilli]

Miller had two phones, one his regular iPhone (the one allegedly taken by the men on trial) and a cheaper phone that he could actually use while in Thailand since the iPhone was blocked; that's the one found at the beach.

This has been known for a long time already.

First I've heard of a phone being found on the beach, its also not in any crime scene photos, can you provide a link to the "thats the one found on the beach" statement? Because you seem to know more than the RTP He failed to confirm whether the mobile phone and SIM card found on the beach belonged to Mr Miller