Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[apetley]

How does DNA in a murder trial get lost?

When I worked in a Scene of Crime Office in the UK every single item was bagged, tagged, barcoded, details entered of the Police Database and kept in a locked and secure refrigerator.

They were impossible to lose.

But on the other hand this isn't the UK.

[realenglish1]

In all my years as a journalists I have never seen a rape murder case where an assailant uses a condom ?

I guess men from Myanmar play it safe

[RupertIII]

From the UK Telegraph today-

Just before the families arrived at the Koh Samui Provincial Court, lead defence lawyer Nakhon Chompuchat said: “We have received information from the British authorities that shows inconsistencies in the prosecution case. It is significant evidence.”

Mr Nakhon said he was unable to provide further details at this time. He did confirm that the evidence was not provided by any British police force or the Foreign and Commonwealth Office. It is believed the information comes from examinations of the bodies of the victims in the UK and is related to DNA found on Ms Witheridge’s body.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11725454/Thai-police-officer-describes-finding-bodies-of-British-backpackers-during-murder-trial.html

[IamNoone88]

Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way.

Issue remains, where is the British police report?

[Cake Monster]

On the very first day of the trial of the 2 accused Mayanmar Citizens, the UK observers at the trial reported " inconsistencies " of DNA evidence between the findings of the Thai Authorities, and those of their own findings.

Now ! isnt that a surprise !

[boomerangutang]

I realize what has been reported. Why would the Mafia on Koh Samui let the Mafia from Koh Tao have any say on what happens on their island?

How do you know they're two different mafia families (do they mind that you call them mafia? most Thai take extreme offense at being called 'mafia'). How do you know the two families are rivals?

It's only a 20 minute boat ride between the two islands. It's not a stretch to envision very concerned mafia members on the smaller island - cruising over to the larger island and making sure there's as little mention as possible of their possible involvement. It's already known Mon was at the trial today.

It's funny, none of the Headman's shielders (I'm not referring to Crab, but to others more right wing than him) have been jumping up and down protesting the word 'mafia' used to describe the KT Headman's clan. I was careful in prior posts to use the term 'mafia-like' when describing them. Can I now be less careful about that? Good thing I don't live near those islands. They might find me and harass me also - because of my outspoken views on how this case has been so thoroughly skewed to protect the H's people.

Mafia comes from the term "Mafiosa", which was a secret criminal organization operating in the 1800's on the Italian Island of Sicily, and in which later moved their criminal activities to the United States.

I am sorry, but even after taking a good hard long look at this Headman, he just doesn't look Italian to me.

In Thailand, the word 'mafia' is well understood. It's a tap sap (a thai word meaning: 'word or phrase taken from another language'). I was once pulled off a moving bicycle by a plainclothes big Chinese looking man at a park in northern Thailand. Right away, I was surrounded by six big plain clothes guys. They tried to grab my arms. I wouldn't let them, and I asked out loud, 'are you mafia?' The biggest guy grinned and said they were special police. I asked to see ID. He flickered a biz card in my face, which I couldn't read. It turns out, there was an ASEAN meeting across town, and these Thai special police were bored and wanted to pick on a farang, so they picked on skinny ol' me. They told me to take them to my house, to get my passport. I said 'sure' and wound up leading the caravan of 3 black SUV's in circles around town. When we figured I was wasting their time, they got pissed off. I demanded to go to the real police station. They grudgingly complied. The big guy wanted to haul me to a back room. I physically resisted and responded to his shouts with shouts of my own. The chief of police was witnessing all this, with a big grin on his face. Later, the special police mafia-wannabes had enough abuse from me, so they split. I can see why they hate farang - we're not as compliant as Thais, and are less likely to kiss-ass to authority. ....some of us, anyway.

[amerasianex]

The Thai justice system is not interested in justice. They are interested in convictions. I seriously doubt. The DNA was ever tested. But if it was a foreigner. I'm sure the samples would have been tested. Probably local Thais with a little bit of money.

[Jai Dee]

One post containing defamation has been removed from this thread.

From the Forum Rules:

6) You will not post comments that could be reasonably construed as defamation or libel.

Defamation is the issuance of a statement about another person or business which causes that person to suffer harm. It does not have to be false to be defamatory. Libel is when the defamatory statement is published either in a drawing, painting, cinematography, film, picture or letters made visible by any means, or any other recording instruments, recording picture or letters, or by broadcasting or spreading picture, or by propagation by any other means. Defamation is both a civil and criminal charge in Thailand.

[Lovekorat]

I have to say I know nothing about the collection of DNA, how long after an event that it can be reliably collected etc., but...

I wonder if the UK authorities did their own test when the bodies of these two young people were brought home?

And if so and it can be done, is that the information they are holding back and have given to the defense?

If, and I say if, they have, will that incriminate someone else?

Perhaps the people or someone related to those who threatened the Sky translator?

It seems to me that as the only 'real evidence' the prosecution have is a supposed DNA match why would they not present it? It's all they've got shouldn't it be guarded and produced?

Why would they lose it or not present it?

Is it not true they had tested them before and found no match?

Is it because they are aware the Brits have their own and if they present theirs then there will be discrepancy?

In that situation the court would have to rule abandonment of the proceedings on a technicality because their is no evidence.

Just a thought

[Rykbanlor]

A condom with nothing inside it to boot

[NanLaew]

Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way.

Issue remains, where is the British police report?

She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detectors even after they had been proven to be a total fraud.

The British police report is not and cannot be part of this Thai judiclal procedure. Stop holding your breath.

[eeworldwide]

Call me dumb, but I can't understand why the young Scottish chap who fled the island, hasn't been inovled in this a great deal more....

It seems to me that he should be heavily involved in these court proceedings. I think he holds a lot of key information, heck - he could even be a suspect.

[Dogmatix]

"It is disrespectful to the families of the deceased to mount a strong defence of the accused" not to mention to police who deliberately bungled the investigation and the people on high who proclaimed it was a textbook case.

[Rykbanlor]

Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way.

Issue remains, where is the British police report?

She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detectors even after they had been proven to be a total fraud.

The British police report is not and cannot be part of this Thai judiclal procedure. Stop holding your breath.

I agree the bomb detectors is a mark against her but it doesn't take away from her forensic skills.

[Tazwa]

I recall that the police found David's broken phone in the garden outside the accused's living quarters. Surely DNA was left on the phone too and will be produced as evidence or is it missing too?

[sammygood]

just MAY .... pfeeeeuw..

[thailandchilli]

I know this may sound a little cheesy but yes I agree with Andy and all the work the whole defense team is putting into this case including those from the UK, but Andy himself deserves the most praise in his tireless endeavors for justice in this case and so many other cases against persecuted people to his own personal cost.

[GOLDBUGGY]

The CIFS chief Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan said a retesting of DNA was not common in foreign countries. So far, she said the retesting was quite rare in Thailand and hence she was not sure about the evidence storage process. (Page 27 News)

Interesting as I would have thought that stuff like DNA is kept forever.

Here is a LINK which goes into more detail about the preservation of evidence. It is USA based as I can't find anything about this in Thailand. Or in English anyway. So take this at face value.

http://www.innocenceproject.org/free-innocent/improve-the-law/fact-sheets/preservation-of-evidence

[Rykbanlor]

I know this may sound a little cheesy but yes I agree with Andy and all the work the whole defense team is putting into this case including those from the UK, but Andy himself deserves the most praise in his tireless endeavors for justice in this case and so many other cases against persecuted people to his own personal cost.

Agreed my friend. I can't believe one of the posters last night saying how human rights lawyers, and people like Andy Hall are just riding an easy gravy train making their livings on peoples misfortune.

But then that is the agenda of those posters - desperately trying to discredit anything to do with the defence.

[joebrown]

say abou

Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way.

Issue remains, where is the British police report?

She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detectors even after they had been proven to be a total fraud.

The British police report is not and cannot be part of this Thai judiclal procedure. Stop holding your breath.

Sure, she lost that much credibility that she was appointed by the present Gov't as Head of The Forensic Research Institute. BTW, bearing in mind her involvement and susequent discredit due to the the bomb- detector fiasco, it begs the question as to what were the Forensic knowledge/capabilities of her competitors and colleagues at the time of her appointment?

[sweatalot]

"most qualified human rights lawyers should be defending the police/prosecution to uphold justice."

...defend the (Thai!) police to uphold justice ...

this shines a light on their frightening understanding of justice

[Graemej100]

Can I ask the 'learned gentlemen' here a question?

Of course I can. I know you will all be clamoring to answer. Just remember I ask this in sincerity and would respect sincere replies - without the sarcasm pointing to my ignorance of such things.

Some posts over the last few days have made mention of a condom and the DNA testing it underwent. Is the suggestion that one of the boys wore a condom when the girl was raped?

If so it would mean that this was not a random murder/rape but a well planned one. Premeditated. I'm sure it has happened in the past - that a rapist wore a condom - but I would have thought rare. Who, anywhere in the world, in the act of rapeing someone, would suddenly think "Hang on. I'm not wearing a condom. Better get one on". Then the fumbling of opening the packet and putting it on and all the rigmarole that goes with it. It's normally a two handed operation.

Is that was was supposed to have happened?

Or have I got it wrong?

I await with baited breath.

[pbeieio]

Well, here we are again! Once more into this moronic, idiotic, "clouding" and bringing doubt on what should be unequivocal DNA evidence.

Said DNA evidence in other countries, has sentenced many and freed more (current and retrospectively).

In this case the Thais will sully that evidence and rely on confessions extracted by torture and bribes, so that 2 Burmese WILL BE found guilty.

After all no, "Thai person" could ever be considered to commit such a heinous crime, could they???

How many times have we sat here on our keyboards and behind our screens and watched Thai justice be perverted and coerced ?

In this instance, such DNA evidence, being "inconclusive" but will be "outweighed" by the "overwhelming" testament of reliable, and local witnesses.

Again and again we have seen it.

Nothing changes!!!

[andy8017]

If they are the rapists ,they are fairly unique rapists if they used condoms ? When the news first broke of the murders there was mention of the son or sons of a well to do Thai on the Island having been called away on urgent business , I never heard of them being interviewed or returning to Koh Tao, unless now the two scapegoats are on trial they feel it's safe to come home

[sweatalot]

so the Koh Tao policeman says the evidence is in Bangkok

Probably he means DNA samples

If there are DNA samples in BKK this cannot be evidence anyway. Why?

There is no proof that this DNA belongs to the individuals that they claim

The chain of custody is broken

If there is DNA in BKK then it is just DNA, not evidence

nobody knows from whom it comes - until independent tests confirm

[boomerangutang]

All I know for sure was that Nomsad was DNA tested in front of a crowd of people....

GB, you say you work on an oil rig. If someone with a history of sabotaging oil rig platforms got a job on your rig, and he made a statement like "I looked at the pipe under the floor where someone said there was a leak, but I found no problem." ...would you believe him, and leave it at that?

I believe NS's DNA was typed correctly. WHAT IT WAS COMPARED TO, HOWEVER, IS QUESTIONABLE. I and others (including Thailand's #1 forensic expert) have been bellyaching about the shoddy 'DNA trail' for months. Are you saying it was airtight earlier, even though it's now being shown to be frazzled now? RTP, prosecution and the Headman's family all have a giant agenda: to bust the scapegoats in order to shield the Headman's people from any legal troubles. If the police spokesman (the same person who claimed Hannah's phone was found at the B's residence) announces there's no match ...who's going to stand up and say, 'waitacottonpickenminute, we want to scrutinize the chain of custody for the DNA found in/on Hannah.' Not one Thai person is going to stand up and challenge the Chief of Police.

....and he had document proof he had written an exam on the day in question, and has footage of him at his residence the day before and the day of the murders. That, in my view is enough to let him go. But if you think different, then up to you.

You're entitled to your myopic view. Still, I asked for a link or source showing NS entering the apartment lobby, prior to leaving on Monday at 9:30 am. Haven't seen it, have you? I venture he entered soon before 9:30, probably in a hurry. I could be wrong, but thus far haven't seen any CCTV showing when he entered the building. If any footage shows him entering anytime within the 20 hours prior to 7 am that morning, then I'll leave it/him alone. Similarly, I haven't heard or seen anything from Nok Air about their morning flight on Sept 15, from Chompun to Don Muang. Have you? Jdinasia says the passenger manifest and videos exist. I'd be surprised if they haven't been long since destroyed, as have reams of other data which might prove relevant to indicating who the real killers are.

[sweatalot]

Khunying Porntip Rojanasunan is actually a highly respected forensic scientist and is independant. She has worked on numerous cases and has, in the past, turned police cases upside down by showing evidence that the parties were infact innocent. A good step for the case, either way.

Issue remains, where is the British police report?

She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detectors even after they had been proven to be a total fraud.

The British police report is not and cannot be part of this Thai judiclal procedure. Stop holding your breath.

She lost her credibility with her repeated endorsement of the fake bomb detector

She did not loose her credibility as a forensic expert

[jackanapes]

what is happening in this case they now state the dna is in Bangkok why is it in Bangkok it should be in koh samui ? this is an absolute shambles and was from the beginning failure to cordon off the area evidence conveniently lost incorrect dna testing what an absolute mess .

[sweatalot]

I recall that the police found David's broken phone in the garden outside the accused's living quarters. Surely DNA was left on the phone too and will be produced as evidence or is it missing too?

Do you mean DNA of the Koh Tao police?

[glasswort]

This whole affair, where the police are concerned, has been a farce from the start. The fact that the most important piece of evidence has now been lost by the police completely destroys the prosecution's case. The trial should be halted and the two Burmese lads released immediately, through lack of evidence. The police could concentrate on identifying the real guilty parties but we all know this will not happen.