Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[rockingrobin]

If it was the B2 who stumbled across Hannah and David being intimate, then at what point did they go and fetch the hoe ? Or did someone intent on violence grab the hoe and then go to the beach ? I think the latter is more probable.

They would have had to know where to find the hoe , or luckily stumbled across it

[glenmohr]

It has often been observed by researchers that the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people who have a previous criminal record. For example, burglars become rapists and rapists become murderers and so on.

The B2 had no motive and have no previous record of being involved in any crime.

[GOLDBUGGY]

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

Since you likes stories so much let me tell you one to.

A Mom comes home and finds her son with his hand in the cookie jar, where she just told him he can't have anymore cookies. She asked him if he is stealing a cookie and he says yes. She tells her son that the punishment for disobeying is he has to go to his room for 15 minutes, then possibly decide on more. But only a few minutes later he cries to his mom he is lonely and afraid. She tells him he still has 10 minutes left.

But he still comes out and says to his mom he has something to tell her. That he wasn't taking a cookie. He said the cookie jumped out of the jar and fell on the table. That being a good boy who doesn't lie, he picked up the cookie, before Rex their Dog ate it, and was putting it back in the Jar when he got caught. Then he says that if you don't believe me just ask Rex, as he saw the whole thing.

No, not at your story but at you.

You see, the difference is that boomerangutan's story is plausible - two naughty boys wrestling with a pig.

But in your story, you try to relay a "fact" that is absolutely unbelievable (cookie jumping out of the jar by itself). Much like the RTP's story, sad to say.

Why is my story not plausible?

You first have to imagine that the Little Boy might represent someone now arrested for a crime, like the 2 accused.

The Little Boy (accused) commits a crime he knows he is not supposed to.

When he gets caught and when his mom is angry he admits to the crime.

But after been locked up for a little while the Little Boy comes out with a completely and totally different unbelievable story as to why he did not do this. That his only witness is too afraid to come forward or speak, even under his mom's protection, like his Dog Rex.

Sounds very plausible to me.

So lets agree to disagree.

[JLCrab]

I like Boomer's stories about the stupid plodding Thai Police and the smart wily farang.

Edited July 19, 2015 by JLCrab

[boomerangutang]

A few of you are so naive. Do you think that the locals don't know who committed this crime? If the b2 had they would have been marched into police custody the following day. Any reasonable person would agree. It's logical that Thai thugs committed

Most locals were sleeping when the killings took place. They can only listen to the gossip and make up their own minds, of course they will look at the headman and the mafia family as suspects. But only the people that witnessed the murder knows who did it.

It's a small island. Some of the residents have been there for 2 or more generations. People know each other and people talk. The murderers talk, and they also speak with their mannerisms and copious amounts of sweat. If someone is involved with a murder, that person's adrenaline will be pumping hot for an hour or two afterwards. Others can see it in their eyes, and again in their mannerisms. If you've had a child or a spouse or a friend who does something like fumbles a burning log from a woodstove, which winds up burning down a house - you can tell something's going on in that person's metabolism, even if they don't come right out and express it. People also talk, whisper, act guilty, get angry when looked at (or asked probing questions), and run after and threaten others who may implicate them (reference; Sean, on the receiving end).

However, all I've mentioned above is human nature, and that by itself is not enough to convict a person of a crime. There could be tangible clues, such as phone records, laundry done at 5:30 am, a speedboat operator who sleeps in a cave and who is too spooked/drugged to speak to cops, ......and many other implicating factors - yet those, and dozens of other potential clues were either....

>>> not pursued by cops

>>> were pursued a bit, then dropped because they implicated the people the cops are required to shield

>>> not thought about by cops or considered insignificant.

>>> destroyed evidence (we're already seeing indications of that in the 1st 3 days of the trial)

Balo's pearl of wisdom: "But only the people that witnessed the murder knows (sic) who did it."

Boomer's response: Not true at all. The people who enacted the murder, and those they told ("don't tell anyone I told you, or I'll kill you!") ...know who did it for sure. Criminals are notorious for wanting to tell their secrets to at least one other person. Study up on criminal behavior and you'll unearth many stories of that happening, sometimes within minutes, and other times - years after the crime.

[boomerangutang]

I like Boomer's stories about the stupid plodding Thai Police and the smart wily farang.

It's not all one-sided. I call it as I see it. Here's one from the other side of the coin. . . . .

True story: In Las Vegas they have an annual Scrabble championship. One year a young Thai man entered. He spoke only a bit of English. Yet, he won! When asked, he said he went through a dictionary and memorized spellings.

So, I'm not saying Thais are bumblers. What the RTP have been doing re; the KT crime scene is not bumbling, it's a concerted effort by top brass to skew and/or disregard evidence in order to A. frame non-Thais who also happen to be poor and powerless, and B. (more importantly) to shield those related to a multi-millionaire VIP tough guy. Unfortunately for the RTP, their ruse is falling apart at the seams. They didn't count on sustained concern/focus/scrutiny from the general public. They thought they could just make a few announcements ("Nomsod's DNA doesn't match." "The Burmese boys' DNA matches") .....and all would take it's course. Rocky times ahead for the RTP.

[thailandchilli]

David had a violent struggle with his killers that is clear on the wounds to his body and hands where he was defending himself. It would have been impossible for the killer/killers not to have scratches and minor wounds also. If it were the B2 surely there should have been witnesses who would have revealed that they saw this on them.

Of course the same can be said about anyone else, Mon did not appear to have any scratches or wounds as we can see from the video and photos of him at the crime scene so I doubt he was directly involved in the killings themselves.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

[Rykbanlor]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

Either that or they are too scared to finger anyone or give even the slightest hint they know who did it in case of retribution.

Also, if they were high on yaba and had one beer each, they still wouldn't be paralytic as you suggest. if they could barely walk home, how did they commit a murder? Methamphetmine wires you, it doesn't make you drunk. So why would they say they were drunk? Because either they are gulity and its a poor excuse, or because they are scared of saying they know who did it.

[boomerangutang]

It has often been observed by researchers that the overwhelming majority of murders are committed by people who have a previous criminal record. For example, burglars become rapists and rapists become murderers and so on.

The B2 had no motive and have no previous record of being involved in any crime.

David had a violent struggle with his killers that is clear on the wounds to his body and hands where he was defending himself. It would have been impossible for the killer/killers not to have scratches and minor wounds also. If it were the B2 surely there should have been witnesses who would have revealed that they saw this on them.

Of course the same can be said about anyone else, Mon did not appear to have any scratches or wounds as we can see from the video and photos of him at the crime scene so I doubt he was directly involved in the killings themselves.

It's been mentioned (by his classmates?) that Nomsod may have had injuries from that weekend, but we'll never know. By the time cops found him, after he'd been evading authorities for about a week, he'd had time to clean himself up and get a haircut. Re; Mon and wounds. I admit, none can be seen on his face or hands, but again, cops don't check such things re; a VIP, particularly those they are buddies with (Mon has local cop friends). Also, clothes cover up such things. Then there are the tough guy friends of Mon (stingray man, bouncer at AC bar, guys who posed with hoes after the crime, and others) who could have been involved in the crime. At least one of them proudly sported a large sharks tooth ring prior to the crime. For obvious reasons, RTP hasn't even looked at those possible suspects. They're all connected to Mon, as is the 'Big Ears' policeman, so they're untouchable.

If this case takes a similar route to the case of the pretty farang girl who was murdered years ago in Bkk, then the following could happen:

The initial court case was found to be full of holes. A second trial was ordered, with a new slew of defendants. All of the new group were convicted, except the mastermind (she must have been rich and/or well connected) ...who ran off to Chiang Rai and is now incognito. The head cop of that investigation, when it was found he skewed evidence, was scheduled to appear before a disciplinary committee. Days before the meeting, he emptied his bank accounts and fled to Miami, where he is today. Thai authorities haven't even tried to extradite him. So it goes, round and round.

[Rykbanlor]

Also, this is rarely ever mentioned - the B2 were both workers at AC BAR, Mon's bar. That's an interesting detail.

Much has already been made about the relationship dynamic between illegal/migrant workers and their Thai bosses.

Edited July 19, 2015 by Rykbanlor

[smedly]

David had a violent struggle with his killers that is clear on the wounds to his body and hands where he was defending himself. It would have been impossible for the killer/killers not to have scratches and minor wounds also. If it were the B2 surely there should have been witnesses who would have revealed that they saw this on them.

Of course the same can be said about anyone else, Mon did not appear to have any scratches or wounds as we can see from the video and photos of him at the crime scene so I doubt he was directly involved in the killings themselves.

I have to disagree, it was reported that a weapon was used against David, that being the case there is no reason at all to assume his attackers were injured, as I have said already I strongly believe that more than two people possibly as many as six may have been involved in this heinous crime, and not any run of the mill worker - these people were ruthless and familiar with violence and power, in my opinion the B2 don't fit the profile

[soalbundy]

Are there any members, absolutely any members that still declare their belief that the 2 on trial are the guilty parties?

It doesn't matter what any of us think, we are powerless. Even if they are guilty and are sentenced to death with overwhelming evidence proving their guilt this case will still leave a bad taste in the mouth, it has been mishandled from day one rather like a police tutorial 'how not to investigate a crime'

[GOLDBUGGY]

Condoms - DNA present on the outside but not on the inside

Assuming I wanted unconsensual sex with someone. However, I'm relatively bright, either having had or having a university education. How can I ensure that I don't leave behind incriminating evidence?

One possibility is to use a condom and to then dispose of the condom afterwards. However the risk remains that until such time, there is the possibility of being caught and DNA evidence proving my actions.

So a better way would be to use two condoms - one within the other. The outer condom would then have the DNA of the victim on the outside but nothing on the inside. This can be safely left at the crime scene. The inner condom would have no DNA on the outside (as it would have been inside the outer condom). Even if I'm caught in possession of this condom, there would be no DNA evidence to link me to the victim.

I think the better way would be to put this condom in your pocket once you are finished and leave no evidence. You also save on the price of an extra condom, so you can Rape and Murder again.

[StealthEnergiser]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 — Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ but it is aimed at the hundreds of thousands of other people who feel this trial is not fair or transparent

any response yet ?

[smedly]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

seriously guys, have you lived here at all, these two worked in a bar and had finished work as I understand it, is not possible that they had been getting drinks throughout the evening probably bought for them by customers, I know any bar I socialise in the staff are generally well taken care of by customers and quite often a few of them will buy a bottle of whiskey between them and consume throughout the evening, what is the point of this discussion - they could not have been drunk on 2x bottles of beer.....seriously

[GOLDBUGGY]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

[Rykbanlor]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

How many times do we have to go over the fact that rape is generally a crime of violence, not lust.

[Rykbanlor]

Also, as we have gone over and over again GB, you talk about motive like this intelligent student planned it all out rationally, whereas there is no doubt this was a crime of the moment that probably got out of hand, so I am sure whoever did it wasn't thinking rationally about all the repercussions it would bring about.

[StealthEnergiser]

can anybody identify this person

[Rykbanlor]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

That post, really - licking their chops?

GB, maybe you are the kind of drooling pervert that licks your chops over bikini clad girls when you haven't been laid in good while, this doesn't mean everyone else does. Again, rapes are crimes of violence, not lust, generally speaking.

And bikinis, you and uncle Prayuth following the same train of thought.

[smedly]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

you are assuming a lot of stuff in that post which is quite frankly wrong and misleading

The guy who has everything but is unable to have a beautiful young blond western girl is the more likely candidate, something his power position and money cannot get for him, and that also includes any of the thugs (bouncers) that work for the local mafia head man - how many times have you heard it here in Thailand "he is mafia"

As for the B2 not having lady friends - it has already been mentioned on this forum that the 3rd B3 friend of the B2 was off to see his girlfriend at 1am...............do you actually read this forum or are you honestly just a troll

and if memory serves you posted something similar on this forum several days ago and got near enough the same reply from me

why are you here ? from what I can see your contribution is zero and repetitive = trolling

[stephenterry]

I also believe she was killed because she was a witness to Davids murder who possibly arrived on the scene while the rape was taking place and was fatally attacked when he tried to intervene, from that time this incident turned from a rape on the beach to a rape and double murder, I also don't believe only 2x men were involved

This is my line of thought also

While plausible, I don't agree. Hannah's body was moved many metres from the original crime scene (as has been pointed out many times before). That indicates that David was attacked first, possibly because of a confrontation with the murderers. This is also backed up by the defence team enlisting a UK crime scene expert to provide an insight into what happened. There is also the unexplained 'evidence' that relates to what and how many footprints were found at the scene, and whether they matched with any suspect.

While the tragic end result would have been the same, the motive wasn't. 'Lust', as asserted by the RTP and above post, is replaced by 'anger', which could be a pointer to the B2's innocence. IMO, a confrontation took place BEFORE any attack was made. Therefore, the B2 (or any other attackers) didn't creep up behind David and knock him unconscious, nor were they raping Hannah before David came on the scene.

Here is one more scenario for consideration. The two victims were sitting on the beach talking. David stripped off and went for a swim. In the meantime a gang of thugs arrived at the spot and started to harass Hannah. She called out and David rushed out of the water to assist her. Angry words were exchanged, he was attacked, and the rest followed.

[thailandchilli]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

I didn't realize it was a toss up between "a Rich Kid who is in university" and the B2? There are a host of other possible perpetrators of this crime.

As for the horny migrant workers who haven't had sex for possibly years......wild speculation! The Burmese that work in the bars and restaurants in KT get just as much chance to get laid as the Thai's. Infact those who work as DJ's and fire show artists get more than there fair share according to their personal facebook pages.

[minikev]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

So it is impossible that they had a beer before they went to the beach in your mind? I think alchohol would be easily available during their evenings work.

I have also sat drinking often with a group of lads from Myanamar 2 large bottles of beer would see many of them drunk.

[thailandchilli]

I also believe she was killed because she was a witness to Davids murder who possibly arrived on the scene while the rape was taking place and was fatally attacked when he tried to intervene, from that time this incident turned from a rape on the beach to a rape and double murder, I also don't believe only 2x men were involved

This is my line of thought also

While plausible, I don't agree. Hannah's body was moved many metres from the original crime scene (as has been pointed out many times before). That indicates that David was attacked first, possibly because of a confrontation with the murderers. This is also backed up by the defence team enlisting a UK crime scene expert to provide an insight into what happened. There is also the unexplained 'evidence' that relates to what and how many footprints were found at the scene, and whether they matched with any suspect.

While the tragic end result would have been the same, the motive wasn't. 'Lust', as asserted by the RTP and above post, is replaced by 'anger', which could be a pointer to the B2's innocence. IMO, a confrontation took place BEFORE any attack was made. Therefore, the B2 (or any other attackers) didn't creep up behind David and knock him unconscious, nor were they raping Hannah before David came on the scene.

Here is one more scenario for consideration. The two victims were sitting on the beach talking. David stripped off and went for a swim. In the meantime a gang of thugs arrived at the spot and started to harass Hannah. She called out and David rushed out of the water to assist her. Angry words were exchanged, he was attacked, and the rest followed.

Completely agree with the first part of your post, but your scenario ie David going for a swim, when he was found he had one sock on? So in my opinion its unlikely he went out swimming but of course I may be wrong

[GOLDBUGGY]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

What is this fixation that JTJ has with semen? .....being planted here and there. I've already shown how easy it would be to skew the DNA trail by simply altering the file name "DNA found in Hannah". Everything is on computer files. Have you ever changed the name of a computer file, JTJ? It's not hard to do, and it doesn't involved carrying and depositing other peoples' semen, ugh.

However, recently, I'm leaning to a simpler way (than changing the label on a specimen or name of a file). All the one or two top brass have to do is simply claim "the Burmese boys' DNA matches the DNA found in Hannah" and "Mr. Nomsod's DNA does not match." Who's going to call out and say, "excuse me, Mr. Police Chief, can we get independent verification?" "Can we see the DNA samples and data without RTP minders?" There's no Thai, other than perhaps the PM, who can broach such questions - and even the PM might not get an honest answer.

Actually, to a small degree, the defense did that last week, and the bumbling response from RTP was heard around the world: "DNA LOST!" "DNA ALL USED UP" "NO SAMPLES EXIST" In closing: only a few people with a very thick agenda (to shield the Headman's people) would still side with the RTP in such a shambles. The prosecution and RTP are probably turning back flips trying to figure what to say when the trial resumes. Thus far, everything they say shouts 'COVER-UP!'

If this was so easy to do then the chain of control would be lost and thus this DNA Evidence could not be verified, thus not be validate, thus not be accepted.

So easy to change a file name you say? Have you ever heard of a Supervisory Password? If you come to my computer as a guest you can't change a damned thing. It requires My Password, and just like your computer does. The ones is the Forensic Labs to.

You keep bringing this up as it is the easiest thing in the world to do. Well,, it isn't! Get over it!

Doing this also is not equal to a kid stealing a Chocolate Bar in a Candy Shop! This has serious consequences, including criminal charges with a mandatory jail sentences and loss of job for life. The penalty in Thailand now for high ranking officials accepting bribes and corruption, and offering a bribe for corruption is the "Death Penalty". So you would have to be a totally and complete fool to do this in the Lab, if you could which you can't, let alone do it for a few baht under the table.

[StealthEnergiser]

Stealthenergiser click on the khao sod article and read corrections at the bottom your answers there

There is no answer there saying why was it cleaned of DNA look at the pictures the blood is not showing as much after the hoe being moved.

"The only evidence available for the re-examination approved by the Koh Samui court on Friday are the sharp garden hoe allegedly used in the murder, a shoe, sock, and bags from the scene. Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood."

H12.jpg

the hoe inspection starts around 1.04

Some people have mentioned bags near the hoe picture below shows what looks like a rice type bag with a lot of blood on it , actually looking closer at it I think the hoe has been placed in the bag and the blood has seeped through.

Later it looks like that hoe was put moved to the crime scene looking very much cleaner.

I read that the prosecutors were aware of the CSI photo's but had no budget to store them.

Edited July 19, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[stephenterry]

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

I didn't realize it was a toss up between "a Rich Kid who is in university" and the B2? There are a host of other possible perpetrators of this crime.

As for the horny migrant workers who haven't had sex for possibly years......wild speculation! The Burmese that work in the bars and restaurants in KT get just as much chance to get laid as the Thai's. Infact those who work as DJ's and fire show artists get more than there fair share according to their personal facebook pages.

Yeah, I tend to agree that there are plenty of available girls (some who qualify for the two brown paper bag award) high on atmosphere, drink and drugs who would go with any presentable male, Farang or Asian. Hedonism is part of having a wild time on holiday, isn't it? Aka Magaluf. The pub crawl photos of Kao Tao revellers provide plenty of evidence of that behaviour.

Similarly, there are girls and males who enjoy the atmosphere, but do not participate in any really wild activities. Maybe Hannah was picked out because she was pretty and a challenge? I have read (posted by an ex-Koh Tao resident) that NS was not the clean looking innocent, but a violent person who carried a knife, and pretty much feared.

Again, this post is speculation, and just an opinion that could be well off the mark, but I reckon it's more plausible than GB's assertions.

[boomerangutang]

All these responses to GB's nonsense posts are an energy drain. It reminds me of a self-help weekend seminar I went to in California years ago. Everyone was cool, except one woman who brought a shitload of domestic problems. Guess where all the focus went? Yup, the moderator chose to take most of the seminar time and most of our energy to focus on just the one messed-up woman.

Here's another true story: When a lot younger, I was a counselor at summer camp, in charge of a roomful of 10 to 12 yr old boys. Each evening, I would gather then all in a circle on the floor to either read a story, have a discussion or do a simple craft project. There was one boy who was disruptive. He had 20 bottles of different herbal pills from home for his problem, but they didn't do any good. The pattern of his disruptiveness continued every evening, so I spoke with the head man and had the boy sent home early. Even while I was driving him to the train station, he innocently asked me why he was being sent home. He honestly didn't know.

....a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend?

'already has a g.f.' uh huh. Right.

Here's another true story. I was with a small group of guys, camped out. The head of the group, a big Native American guy, was talking about driving a hippie tour bus. He said, in every group he took on the 5-day tours, there was always a woman who wanted to hop in bed with him. One guy in our group piped up, "oh that could never happen to me - if I was the bus driver."

The big Indian said, "Huh, why not?"
The small guy said, "because I have a girlfriend. I would always stay true to her. "
There was a pregnant silence
Then the Indian said in a big voice, "buddy, you are so full of shit."
We all cracked up.