Greek talks with skeptical creditors to resume in morning

[Lite Beer]

Greek talks with skeptical creditors to resume in morning
By PAN PYLAS and JOHN-THOR DAHLBURG

BRUSSELS (AP) — Bailout discussions between the Greek finance minister and his skeptical counterparts in the 19-country eurozone will resume Sunday after breaking up following more than eight hours of talks without any apparent breakthrough that will secure the country's future in the euro.

During talks on Saturday, Greece clearly failed to give what its creditors in the eurozone have been demanding — iron-clad proof that it can deliver on its promises to implement tough austerity and reform measures in return for billions more in rescue money.

"We had an in-depth discussion of the Greek proposals and the issue of credibility and trust was discussed," Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the eurozone's top official, said on leaving the meeting.

The talks will resume at 11 a.m. local time (0900 GMT), just a few hours before the European Union's 28 leaders are meant to descend on Brussels for a summit that has been billed over the past week as Greece's last chance to convince creditors that it deserves more financial help.

"It's still very difficult but work is still in progress," Dijsselbloem said.

The pressure was on Greece all Saturday even after the country's parliament passed a harsh austerity package that it hopes will lead to a three-year bailout. Over and over in Brussels, finance ministers and top officials of the eurozone said the same thing — we don't fully trust you to make good on your promises.

A European official present at the discussions, when asked what more needed to be discussed when ministers reconvene Sunday, said "everything."

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he's not authorized to talk publicly, said ministers wanted "more specific and binding commitments" and that the Greek government's proposals were "too little, too late."

Assuaging those concerns is the task facing Euclid Tsakalotos, who has been Greek finance minister for barely a week, following the resignation of his outspoken predecessor Yanis Varoufakis.

But he needs to do it as Greece desperately needs the money to avoid a financial collapse. Greece's banks, according to some accounts, have barely enough cash in their vaults to see the country through the week.

Greece's banks have been shuttered for the best part of two weeks and daily withdrawals from ATMs have been limited to a paltry 60 euros. The economy is in freefall and the country faces big debt repayments in coming weeks.

Early on Saturday, Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras cleared one hurdle. Lawmakers in the Greek parliament overwhelmingly backed a package of economic reforms and further austerity measures, in the hope that it would convince European creditors to back a third bailout of the country. Greece has made a request to Europe's bailout fund for a 53.5 billion-euro ($59.5 billion) 3-year financial package but many officials in Brussels put that figure much higher.

Still, the measures proposed, which include changes long-demanded by creditors, such as changes to pensions and sales taxes, weren't enough to unlock an agreement in Brussels. Following months of deteriorating relations, creditors are demanding firm legislative action to back up the proposals at the very least.

German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble, who has taken a hard line on Greece over recent months, said the Greek government will have to do a lot more than just say it wants to reform if it's going to get more money.

"We will definitely not be able to rely on promises," he said. "We are determined to not make calculations that everyone knows one cannot believe in."

Schaeuble was clear in who he blamed for the current crisis. He put that firmly on the shoulders of the radical left Syriza government that was elected in January on an anti-austerity prescription. The "hopeful" economic situation regarding Greece at the end of last year has been "destroyed by the last months."

Finland is perhaps taking the hardest line of all. Reports out of the country said the coalition government was balking at further assistance for Greece.

The eurozone ministers have to give their blessing to Greece's bailout request to the European Stability Mechanism. Traditionally, eurozone ministers agree by mutual consensus, though in exceptional circumstances a unanimous vote may not be needed.

Greece has received bailouts totaling 240 billion euros in return for deep spending cuts, tax increases and reforms from successive governments. Though the country's annual budget deficit has come down dramatically, Greece's debt burden has increased as the economy has shrunk by a quarter.

The Greek government has made some form of debt relief a key priority and will hope that a comprehensive solution will involve European creditors at least agreeing to delayed repayments or lower interest rates.

Tsipras has made much of the need for a restructuring of Greek debt, which stands at around 320 billion euros, or a staggering 180 percent or so of the country's annual GDP. Few economists think that debt will ever fully repaid. Last week, the International Monetary Fund said a restructuring was necessary for Greece.

___

Menelaos Hadjicostis and Raf Casert in Brussels contributed to this story. Matti Huuhtanen in Helsinki, Finland contributed to this story.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-11

[smedly]

This crowd of Greek clowns in government have destroyed any chance these people have of getting a deal, what a circus, I feel sorry for the Greek people but they voted for them

Now the PM regardless of a referendum he called and the people voted on last week has capitulated and is now on his hands and knees begging for money which in my opinion will not be coming - too little too late after all the trouble he and his communist counterpart (who has now deserted the sinking ship) have caused, they would need to be signing over some serious collateral to get one cent out of me, I think the rest of the people (tax payers) in the EU have had enough of this charade and are now quite willing to cut them free and let them paddle their own way out of the (deleted) they are now in

The only way I see them getting out of this would be to hand control of Greece over to a team of central EU experts (receivers as in bankrupt) to run the country because they are by all accounts bankrupt and unable to govern themselves, this would effectively end self governance and arguably end democratic government rule in the country until stability is restored - although it would be run by other democratic elected officials just not elected by the Greek people

[Credo]

Smedly, I don't think anything like that has ever been done unless a country has been invaded and defeated. Interesting concept.

[ABCer]

There is no questions of collateral. When money is given to a State, any State - there is no collateral.

In case of Greece - the State has a history of never paid back bailout money. Creditors know it better than we do.

Many problems, but all of them are quite simple:

1) how badly EU wants Greece to stay in? Is this worth the billions needed?

2) is there a way of making Europeans (people) to pay for Greeks (thieves) instead of EU Banks?

BTW I do not call Greek people thieves. It is their Leaders. Greek people never saw any money.

3) when bailout money is 'loaned' the commissions for organisers are real and quite high. Are they high enough to give away somebody else's money, risk scandal for commission?

4) if this Tsipras has a streak of a Commi in him - the consequences to Greeks may be dire. The 'People' never get what they have been promised. EU must consider this aspect.

Apart from the above issues IMHO Greece may benefit from going out of EU. Maybe not completely? You know, like open the door get some fresh air, freedom from taking in 'refugees', get Drahma and tourists back...

Edited July 12, 2015 by ABCer

[sirineou]

This crowd of Greek clowns in government have destroyed any chance these people have of getting a deal, what a circus, I feel sorry for the Greek people but they voted for them

Now the PM regardless of a referendum he called and the people voted on last week has capitulated and is now on his hands and knees begging for money which in my opinion will not be coming - too little too late after all the trouble he and his communist counterpart (who has now deserted the sinking ship) have caused, they would need to be signing over some serious collateral to get one cent out of me, I think the rest of the people (tax payers) in the EU have had enough of this charade and are now quite willing to cut them free and let them paddle their own way out of the (deleted) they are now in

The only way I see them getting out of this would be to hand control of Greece over to a team of central EU experts (receivers as in bankrupt) to run the country because they are by all accounts bankrupt and unable to govern themselves, this would effectively end self governance and arguably end democratic government rule in the country until stability is restored - although it would be run by other democratic elected officials just not elected by the Greek people

You mean declare chapter11 and go in receivership?

I am afraid you are confusing corporations with sovereign countries.

How about Greece defaults, goes back in the Drachma, the drachma is devaluated internationally making Greek exports more competitive,

lowering domestic interest rates to stimulate domestic investment

lowering corporate tax in certain sectors to zero for five years to attract international investment.

[Lissos]

On the subject of tourism, I believe one of the demands on Greece is to 'lift' tax relief off the islands. Quite understandably the Greek Government response is - "huh? Do you want our economy to grow so we could even pay off debt? Or are you more interested in rubbing our face in the ground as 'punishment' for past transgressions?". Greek island tourism is 'reasonably' affordable. If the tax relief is lifted, it us going to be passed onto holidaying Europeans. The Greeks are correct that the German approach is 'naughty step', as you see on those 'nanny from hell' documentaries. It may get the 'transgressor' to eventually capitulate and do / act the way you want them to, but if that is the approach then at least admit it openly that the wider European drive is to punish Greece to not let it get away with past misdeeds, not to get its economy up and running again. Don't cut someone's hamstrings if you expect them to run a marathon.

[robblok]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

[robblok]

On the subject of tourism, I believe one of the demands on Greece is to 'lift' tax relief off the islands. Quite understandably the Greek Government response is - "huh? Do you want our economy to grow so we could even pay off debt? Or are you more interested in rubbing our face in the ground as 'punishment' for past transgressions?". Greek island tourism is 'reasonably' affordable. If the tax relief is lifted, it us going to be passed onto holidaying Europeans. The Greeks are correct that the German approach is 'naughty step', as you see on those 'nanny from hell' documentaries. It may get the 'transgressor' to eventually capitulate and do / act the way you want them to, but if that is the approach then at least admit it openly that the wider European drive is to punish Greece to not let it get away with past misdeeds, not to get its economy up and running again. Don't cut someone's hamstrings if you expect them to run a marathon.

I bet your Greek, i got an other one don't spend money you don't have and expect others to pay for your lifestyle.

Greeks are like the grasshopper in the story of the ant and the grasshopper.

The Greek government spend the EU money on stuff and corruption and to gain popularity but were never realistic.

Maybe if the Greeks paid taxes it would be better... and those pensions so early.. many other countries but love to have them but cant afford the. The Greeks could.. by letting others pay.

The Greeks are more like leeches or people on welfare then productive member of the union.

[sanuk711]

The Greek Government is getting so desperate, it is starting to respond to emails from Nigerian millionaires...............

[Loptr]

And the worm turns...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro

Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis.

A leading adviser to debt-riven countries has offered to help Athens recover some of the vast profits made by the investment bank.

[TheAppletons]

And the worm turns...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro

Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis.

A leading adviser to debt-riven countries has offered to help Athens recover some of the vast profits made by the investment bank.

I saw that story yesterday and it's difficult for me to understand how Greece would be able to successfully sue when the government of Greece was complicit in "cooking the books".

[steve654]

Smedly, I don't think anything like that has ever been done unless a country has been invaded and defeated. Interesting concept.

Apparently at todays meeting it was suggested that Brussels takes over the Greek Governments administration. Good luck with that!

Greece will be out of the euro and there will be a lot of suffering for quite some time, but in the end, good or bad, a country should control

it's own destiny and own currency. EU seemed like a good idea, but so many differences in Europe make it close to impossible to have

a unified currency, but not a unified political union.

[Usernames]

This crowd of Greek clowns in government have destroyed any chance these people have of getting a deal, what a circus, I feel sorry for the Greek people but they voted for them

Now the PM regardless of a referendum he called and the people voted on last week has capitulated and is now on his hands and knees begging for money which in my opinion will not be coming - too little too late after all the trouble he and his communist counterpart (who has now deserted the sinking ship) have caused, they would need to be signing over some serious collateral to get one cent out of me, I think the rest of the people (tax payers) in the EU have had enough of this charade and are now quite willing to cut them free and let them paddle their own way out of the (deleted) they are now in

The only way I see them getting out of this would be to hand control of Greece over to a team of central EU experts (receivers as in bankrupt) to run the country because they are by all accounts bankrupt and unable to govern themselves, this would effectively end self governance and arguably end democratic government rule in the country until stability is restored - although it would be run by other democratic elected officials just not elected by the Greek people

That last point might not be too bad of an idea. Didn't the state of Michigan do that with Detroit?

[englishoak]

And the worm turns...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greek-debt-crisis-goldman-sachs-could-be-sued-for-helping-country-hide-debts-when-it-joined-euro-10381926.html

Greek debt crisis: Goldman Sachs could be sued for helping hide debts when it joined euro

Goldman Sachs faces the prospect of potential legal action from Greece over the complex financial deals in 2001 that many blame for its subsequent debt crisis.

A leading adviser to debt-riven countries has offered to help Athens recover some of the vast profits made by the investment bank.

I saw that story yesterday and it's difficult for me to understand how Greece would be able to successfully sue when the government of Greece was complicit in "cooking the books".

Quite simple you hold the MPs of Greece who colluded at the time responsible not the country and if need be jail them, you go after Sachs anyway for having its part in the massive fraud

[TheAppletons]

I saw that story yesterday and it's difficult for me to understand how Greece would be able to successfully sue when the government of Greece was complicit in "cooking the books".

Quite simple you hold the MPs of Greece who colluded at the time responsible not the country and if need be jail them, you go after Sachs anyway for having its part in the massive fraud

I think you've been watching the Thai ruling military junta too much....rare is the case in the West where the current government tries to prosecute the previous government for actions taken on behalf of the country. When individuals are caught committing individual crimes, perhaps, but rarely when acting on behalf of the nation.

Edited July 12, 2015 by TheAppletons

[samuibeachcomber]

The germans could veto the greeks proposal,there are many countries want them out including finland and the baltic states pus slovenia.Keep bailing out greece keep losing money,its a no brainer that greece will never pay anything back thats why tsipras put forward these latest proposals knowing its money for jam as they will not implement them.

If i was the germans i would make the loan conditional on euro technocrats coming to greece to implement these new proposals.

Greece should be cut loose.

[JockPieandBeans]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

[smedly]

as a single currency and a single market it is part of the system were a certain amount of the money is distributed to the poorer nations or those with less effective economies, if Greece had their own currency they would be doing things like adjusting interest rates and altering the value of currency etc but because it is one market tied into the Euro they cannot do that, so there is a certain distribution of cash that flows around probably best described as grants or subsidies, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening right now - Greece is a train wreck and it's government's have caused it - pure and simple

[JockPieandBeans]

as a single currency and a single market it is part of the system were a certain amount of the money is distributed to the poorer nations or those with less effective economies, if Greece had their own currency they would be doing things like adjusting interest rates and altering the value of currency etc but because it is one market tied into the Euro they cannot do that, so there is a certain distribution of cash that flows around probably best described as grants or subsidies, but that has absolutely nothing to do with what is happening right now - Greece is a train wreck and it's government's have caused it - pure and simple

That Greece is a train wreck is not in doubt.

To pure and simply say that the Greek Governments have caused it, is to take a very narrow view.

Greece has been done up like a kipper since it joined the Euro. Those that allowed Greece to join are ultimately responsible for the mess that Greece is in.

Everyone knew the Greek figures were, lets say it politely ( a bag of b***ocks ) and should never been allowed entry.

[englishoak]

Peter and the wolf, Greece has cried and lied too many times and now no one believes them.

Time to move em out and move on or take the whole thing down, eventually the EU is going to collapse, everyone knows it just a matter of how long it takes to admit it.

Hopefully Britain will when they have a say. No one there is very impressed with the way its gone, been engineered or mishandled by the EU as much as Greece, not even the pro Euro left and right. UKIP is having a field day atm.

Be real nice if the UK stuck a stake right through the heart of the EU and it voted out when the time comes.

[robblok]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

What i think is that its ok to help other Euro countries to reform and develop. Its good for the Eu in a total. However Greece is a different story, they want but don't play by the rules. Countries that misuse the subsidies should be punished and of course I am against the agricultural subsidies. However I don't see that change anytime soon.

The Netherlands is a net contributor just like the UK but is benefiting from the EU in other ways. However the countries receiving money should not take the piss like the Greeks. But here we are not talking about subsidies but loans, different story.

I would think the EU should give more voting rights to those countries that are net contributors to those who are not.

I hope the Greeks get kicked out, its a good thing if the Brits leave too they whine too much about not having control over their own affairs. Its just deflecting the issue and not seeing the bigger picture. But the Brits as an island nation have always been a bit of a strange country (no insult meant here). They hold on to strange measurements and stuff like that probably because they hate it that the french invented part of the metric system.

I don't like everything of the EU but standardization of products and such benefits us all. Like that they are putting in rules that adapters for mobile phones should be universal and cant change to much (so the older-versions would work on new phones). There are many good things the EU does.. and certainly some bad things too but a common market that is standardized giving us power is a good thing. What you often see is governments blaming everything on the EU so they don't catch flack themselves.

Stupid things like the moving of the EU between Strasbourg and Brussels are things I condemn too. But I bet that even a government that you like does things you don't like. That is how i see the EU the good outweighs the bad.

[Rancid]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

[samuibeachcomber]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

Democracy as we used to know it is dead.No one listens to the people anymore.Even a free vote means very little when its "first past the post" Referendums are only as good as the questions you are expected to answer.

Edited July 12, 2015 by samuibeachcomber

[SheungWan]

Hard to watch to goings on in Greece and not get the feeling that it is all a scripted drama for media consumption.

Either way, like so many countries, the rich robbed the place blind and have handed the bill to the masses. They voted no deals on the debt yet the government is now dealing, regardless whether right or wrong shows what a fraud democracy has become.

Democracy as we used to know it is dead.No one listens to the people anymore.Even a free vote means very little when its "first past the post" Referendums are only as good as the questions you are expected to answer.

Unfortunately democracy doesn't mean that Greece can vote for the rest of Euroland to continue paying their bills as a free lunch. The second point is that the Greeks have voluntarily participated in the clientelism and protectionism of trades, plus the bureaucracy required to keep this in place. The trade unions are an essential part of this. So the wail that its just an old story of rich vs poor simply doesn't wash. One election after another has seen the electorate vote for populism that doesn't work. They have a choice: stay in the Euro and reform/restructure or become Argentina. The rest is just a dance.

[harrry]

I cannot quite understand....Greece has assets....euros and it has liabilitie euros. It cannot pay its debts...if it leaves the Eurozone will the Euros it has become worthless or will they be paid for in drachma after deducting the liabilities.

[Basil B]

The fact that the talks are to resume does mean there is some hope of reaching a settlement, it is Greece that needs this to be resolved in time to open the banks tomorrow.

But my fear is once a settlement is reached the Greeks will find another way to back down.

Edited July 12, 2015 by Basil B

[Baerboxer]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

What i think is that its ok to help other Euro countries to reform and develop. Its good for the Eu in a total. However Greece is a different story, they want but don't play by the rules. Countries that misuse the subsidies should be punished and of course I am against the agricultural subsidies. However I don't see that change anytime soon.

The Netherlands is a net contributor just like the UK but is benefiting from the EU in other ways. However the countries receiving money should not take the piss like the Greeks. But here we are not talking about subsidies but loans, different story.

I would think the EU should give more voting rights to those countries that are net contributors to those who are not.

I hope the Greeks get kicked out, its a good thing if the Brits leave too they whine too much about not having control over their own affairs. Its just deflecting the issue and not seeing the bigger picture. But the Brits as an island nation have always been a bit of a strange country (no insult meant here). They hold on to strange measurements and stuff like that probably because they hate it that the french invented part of the metric system.

I don't like everything of the EU but standardization of products and such benefits us all. Like that they are putting in rules that adapters for mobile phones should be universal and cant change to much (so the older-versions would work on new phones). There are many good things the EU does.. and certainly some bad things too but a common market that is standardized giving us power is a good thing. What you often see is governments blaming everything on the EU so they don't catch flack themselves.

Stupid things like the moving of the EU between Strasbourg and Brussels are things I condemn too. But I bet that even a government that you like does things you don't like. That is how i see the EU the good outweighs the bad.

As a common market, the original idea; a union that benefits all, standardizes, regulates quality and standards, shares burdens and helps one another, great.

But some countries, as you say, take the piss and see it as somewhere to get something for nothing; or turn it into some massive layered bureaucracy where the bureaucrats make the decisions they want without any real accountability.

A Federal Europe - ran by who? The Germans think they should as they've most money. The French think it's their birthright whilst the British hate the idea of federalism.

The other countries, quite frankly, don't have the economic muscle to influence things when push really comes to shove.

The Dutch are, IME, very liberal, easy going and tolerant. They may be prepared to have their country dictated to by bureaucrats based in Brussels and Strasbourg. That was never the original idea.

Without the UK, it really won't be long before Germany gets tired of the French bickering, perceiving it's own payments too high, and all the hangers on and leaves too. The French, the ones I know, are shit scared that if the UK goes, Germany will revert to bullying them aggressively. Btw, a few Dutch were concerned that German attitude and behavior might change if UK pulled it's forces out of Europe too, when I lived there several years ago.

The EU can unravel very easily. That's the point the Greeks know and play on. As do the other near bankrupt unproductive take what they can members.

[Basil B]

Latest head lines are the Summit of EU leaders for this afternoon have been cancelled.

This is different from the talks being held by Euro Zone finance ministers which broke up last night without agreement and resumed this morning.

The 11th hour, 59th minute, 59th second, I think they will need a leap second.

[micmichd]

Imho this is a decision whether EU shoul remain a sheer monetaristic institution (like a bank) or should become a social institution.

It's also a question of political style.

People like Herr Schäuble hate socialists, that's not news. Herr Schäuble's political perspective is now so narrowed that he's not even able to understand that someone can have a different point of view. In fact it's a dictatorship he's after, with the ultra right-wing "Real Fins" on his side.

Edited July 12, 2015 by micmichd

[JockPieandBeans]

Yes now the trust is broken, it was broken before because the previous government promised many things too and never delivered. Now with the referendum they broke even more trust. The other countries just dont believe the Greeks will do what they agreed to.

Now calls are there to kick them out (Finland, Germany) and its on their own head. I hope they kick them out they are just not to be trusted.

I also think its good for the Greeks and Europeans if the Greeks leave and never come back. Let it be a lesson to all other countries that agreements need to be kept

I am pro Europe and Euro.. just not with countries like that that want the benefits but are not willing to play by the rules.

robblok

What is your thoughts on the other 17 EU Countries that are in the same boat as Greece ? You know, the ones that take out far more than they contribute.

Is it OK for them to be leeches as long as they keep quiet and kneel to the leaders of the EU ?

Both sides are equally to blame in this farce.

If I was Greek, I think I would be saying to myself, no matter what, there is going to be pain ahead. So lets flip the bird at the EU and suffer the pain and be free.

The Germans are so desperate that they are now offering a 5 year time out for Greece.

http://news.sky.com/story/1517428/inconclusive-greek-bailout-talks-suspended

I for one, hope that the Greeks crash this whole Ponzi scheme.

What i think is that its ok to help other Euro countries to reform and develop. Its good for the Eu in a total. However Greece is a different story, they want but don't play by the rules. Countries that misuse the subsidies should be punished and of course I am against the agricultural subsidies. However I don't see that change anytime soon.

The Netherlands is a net contributor just like the UK but is benefiting from the EU in other ways. However the countries receiving money should not take the piss like the Greeks. But here we are not talking about subsidies but loans, different story.

I would think the EU should give more voting rights to those countries that are net contributors to those who are not.

I hope the Greeks get kicked out, its a good thing if the Brits leave too they whine too much about not having control over their own affairs. Its just deflecting the issue and not seeing the bigger picture. But the Brits as an island nation have always been a bit of a strange country (no insult meant here). They hold on to strange measurements and stuff like that probably because they hate it that the french invented part of the metric system.

I don't like everything of the EU but standardization of products and such benefits us all. Like that they are putting in rules that adapters for mobile phones should be universal and cant change to much (so the older-versions would work on new phones). There are many good things the EU does.. and certainly some bad things too but a common market that is standardized giving us power is a good thing. What you often see is governments blaming everything on the EU so they don't catch flack themselves.

Stupid things like the moving of the EU between Strasbourg and Brussels are things I condemn too. But I bet that even a government that you like does things you don't like. That is how i see the EU the good outweighs the bad.

Thanks for the reply. So much that I could say but it would be going off topic.

I'm sure that the Greek people who have no money and are struggling to eat will be so happy that the EU made a fantastic rule about universal phone chargers.

If that example is the 1st good thing about the EU that popped into your head, The state of the EU is even worse than I thought.