Farming In Northeast Thailand

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

Thanks for your input Random you seem to know alot about the stuff that goes on in these parts. I was thinking that they may have paid so much for the shot because it was from really good bull - that and the fact that they aren't giving the seller regular business and he may have had to come from a place quite far away, all of which might bump the price up. I very much doubt the family were trying to scam me out of money as I gave them 4000bt to get the cow pregnant and told them to buy food and vitimins with what was left over.

They are probably being over charged but don't know any better. They only have two cows remember.

With regards to the calf the weigh was just the pure meat - I saw the carcus sitting in the middle of the room looking up at me. Plus dairy cow meat is not as tasty apparently - not my words.

I don't really think anyone is going to try and scam me. I think the price might be higher as soon as someone sees my face but I don't think it's some scheme that my wife family are trying to pull off. They could be trying to get me interested by telling me there's more money to be made than there is but at the end of the day I'm trying to help them.

My wife said that the 50,000 offer on the bull was given so that someone could enter it into some kind of show or something. I suppose if it wins a prize loads of people will want it to bread with their cows. I will know more once I arrive and ask more questions to the actual people I'll be dealing with. The misses said her dad was going to take me to a market...

I would be interested in why the 250,000 was paid? What gender was it? Was it a cow sold coz it was going to give great offspring or was it a bull intending to sell it's seman?

[PLJ]

Hi All

I am new to this forum and find it very informative and friendly. My wife and I will be retiring to Thailand in 1.5 years, our dream is to have a small subsistence farm, well maybe a large garden would be a better term. Something on the order of 10 to 12 rai seems about right for us. My brother in law is encourging us to consider something larger and putting in fish ponds or rubber trees. Well I am open to the idea but totally ignorant of both. I have found some info regarding fish farming on a large scale, but nothing on small scale ponds, also can not find much about growing rubber trees. Perhaps some of you can pass along some help so I can gather a bit of knowledge in this area. Thanks.

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

Fish farming has interested me as well. Catfish seem to be popular. The first time I went back with my wife her family drained a pond and aload of boys grabbed all the fish as they had less and less water. Got loads of fish, all quite small. I'm keen on constructing a few more of these ponds and getting some feed and making it a more comercial venture. I don't think there is a very good market for fish in terms of making a profit but at least the family/village can eat them.

I was reading that fishing was taking over from cattle for supplying the population with protien as it takes 5-6 times less feed to make the same weught.

If you are interested in building something I found quite a good website which will sell you everything you need and probably give you all the advise you want. It's based in Chang Mia tho so you may want to find something closer.

http://www.thaisuperfish.com/index.html

Hope that helps. If anyone can tell us about the market for fish - it would be useful. Is there any money to be made? You you have to have a load of buyers (llike restaurants) before you want to go ahead and build something like this.

Anyone know any more on the price of Brahman cattle and what makes a good one and how to go about setting up cattle farming?

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

My brother in law is encourging us to consider something larger and putting in fish ponds or rubber trees.

What does your brother suggest you do with the fish once you have something up and running? Is it going to be for your own consuption? Are you going to sell it it locals from your house? Sell them to the local market? Be a regular supplier for someone?

Fish seem like an easy way to go, does anyone have a fish farm. Are there many pitfalls?

[applepie]

I bought 9 rai and then my wife decided that hiring a tractor to dig out 2 large fish ponds was a good idea. So, the family hired a tractor (i paid for) and they dug out to large ponds. I would say the area set aside for the ponds is around 4 or 5 rai. The rest of the land is being used to farm rice. Then, they paid around 1,000 baht to have the ponds stocked with small fish, which they feed on a daily basis. Then they decided to throw some shrimp into one of the ponds. Jury is still out on how that goes.

The good news is that the ponds now produce a sh*t load of fish....

The bad news is that if I were to just give them the money and they not buy fish food or farm the land it would cost me less money.

But the family tends to take care of half the streat they live on in terms of providing food for them.

It is interesting how the locals know the land. The ponds fill themsleves form the ground water.

I have an idea of buying a small pump and then using it to keep the rest of the land irrigated year round. So the family could grow rice, then switch to other crops in the off season.

If anyone would like to see a couple of pictures of the ponds, just email me, I will send them over.

I think the general consenus is that one cannot make a lot of money farming, but it does keep people from starving......

Also, the University of Khon Kaen has a large ag department and they have answered all my emails concerning farming in the region. I have thought about meeting with them and reviewing crops, soil, etc....

But for me, the fish ponds have been great. Now the family has a decent meal every night and if the shrimp start to multipy, it would be great.

[plachon]

I bought 9 rai and then my wife decided that hiring a tractor to dig out 2 large fish ponds was a good idea. So, the family hired a tractor (i paid for) and they dug out to large ponds. I would say the area set aside for the ponds is around 4 or 5 rai. The rest of the land is being used to farm rice. Then, they paid around 1,000 baht to have the ponds stocked with small fish, which they feed on a daily basis. Then they decided to throw some shrimp into one of the ponds. Jury is still out on how that goes.

The good news is that the ponds now produce a sh*t load of fish....

The bad news is that if I were to just give them the money and they not buy fish food or farm the land it would cost me less money.

But the family tends to take care of half the streat they live on in terms of providing food for them.

It is interesting how the locals know the land. The ponds fill themsleves form the ground water.

I have an idea of buying a small pump and then using it to keep the rest of the land irrigated year round. So the family could grow rice, then switch to other crops in the off season.

If anyone would like to see a couple of pictures of the ponds, just email me, I will send them over.

I think the general consenus is that one cannot make a lot of money farming, but it does keep people from starving......

Also, the University of Khon Kaen has a large ag department and they have answered all my emails concerning farming in the region. I have thought about meeting with them and reviewing crops, soil, etc....

But for me, the fish ponds have been great. Now the family has a decent meal every night and if the shrimp start to multipy, it would be great.

It'd be possible to feed about six people (av. family unit) with fish quite regularly from a pond no bigger than 400 m2, with minimal inputs, bar regular manuring (at least weekly) and some supplementary feed like rice bran or some vegetable wastes. Anything bigger, and you can feed the neighbours too, tam bun or flog in the local market the surplus. But like any livestock, fish require regular maintenace and managment. You put only a little in, and you get only a few out, in v. simplistic terms. Most Isaan farmers don't like to put a lot into their ponds, and so usually don't get much out (compared to what is possible).

With fish farming, you can go down several roads of varying complexity and intensiveness, (like the difference between running a few healthy chickens round the yard or going the whole hog and setting up a closed system agribusiness-type unit of a million plus legless, wingless birds). If your rellies don't have much or any experience of the latter method of farming, then I suggest you start small, and work up. Large scale fish farming is very competitive in Thailand and dominated by a few large agribusinesses, who sell farmers whole "packages" (i.e. fry, food medicines) and then will either buy the end product off the farmer at a low price, or allow the farmer to try and dump a few tons of fish in the local market at a better price (but risk, selling only a fraction).

At the village level, where your family and neighbours are unlikely to be corporate go-getters, it's better to do it at a much less intensive and smaller scale, using cheap, locally available inputs. I advise against catfish, unless you have access to large amounts of cheap animal protein, as they're carnivores and won't nibble on leaves and crap, like the local carps (pla tapien, pla nai, pla yeesok, etc). which are easy to grow, so long as the water is green and fertile (from animal crap). Don't worry about the green water, it's perfectly healthy and just full of small plants and animals (plankton), which end up as fish food. Tilapia are okay (if you must!), but are non-native and cause all sorts of problems with the local ecology if they escape (not uncommon during floods).

Could go on, but in summary, if you want shit loads of fish, you must put in bucket loads of shit!

If you've got any specific questions, then feel free to ask.

Oh yes, unlikely that you'll get any stocked shrimp to breed in your ponds, unless they're brackish, as the salt content has to be near sea water before they'll "do their stuff." But there are local breeds of mini-shrimp in Isaan (goong foi), that taste great when they're kicking (goong dten) and need no attention or stocking.

[RamdomChances]

Thanks for your input Random you seem to know alot about the stuff that goes on in these parts.

Thank you, but you have to remember that I'm not in Issan, I live on the central plain (Nakhon Sawan) things may be different where you live, I thought that maybe the the calf was just meat, we sell on the hoof, so that would explain it. Yea i've heard that thai people think that meat from dairy cows is not as tasty, personally i think its just to keep the price down There are shows but I dont know much about them.

I'm pretty sure that the animals that fech high prices are for breeding, I dont know if you can sell the sperm (how do you collect it, its a picture I cant get out of my head ) I know that sperm has to be kept frozen.

If you go to buy cows you will be over charged, not just because your a falang, but because you probably dont know that much about cattle, when we first started I was probably paying 20% more for cows than I do now. Even if a thai that does not really know a lot goes to buy cattle the seller will try it on. Also you have to get past the Thai code !! if you talk to a thai they will always have bought something really cheep and sold expensive, they do have a bit of a tendancy to exagirate!!

If anyone is thinking of doing any farming as a buissiness, a few things, start small, find your market, dont use money you cant afford to loose, make sure you have enough money to support yourself for a few years and keep some back for disasters. If you want a hobby great keep it at that its much less stressfull. We are fully commercial, we support ourselfs fully from the farm, but you cant open a farm and expext to make a good living overnight.

A friend of mines got a fish farm, and he recons it makes quite good money, he has a few ponds, 1 over a chicken farm, the shit drops down and the fish eat it , it also promotes organic growth. When he comes to sell the fish he pumps all the water out of one pool into the next and simply picks up the fish. There are markets for fish and most medium farms sell to and agent you'd have to ask around in your area. Another Idea is to build a resteraunt alongside or over the pond and sell you fish there, i've seen resteraunts that sell bags of fish food as well so you get people coming and eating your fish and then paying to feed them as well!!

Ideally fish farms should be integrated with some other sort of farm that can produce food/waste for the fish. We would like to open one and get the waste from the cows going into it, we sell dried manure to some fish farms. You should be able to excavate the pond for not much money if you can find somewhere to sell the earth. I think that to do prawns you have to airate the water.

Here's a few fish farm links

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/004/Y2876E/y2876e00.htm#Contents

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/Y3610E/y3610E00.htm#cont

http://www.tve.org/ho/doc.cfm?aid=352〈=English

@ random: on the photos I have seen that you milk with buckets there. I assume, however, that you milk in the new stable with Siphoning-Machine or in a milking stand / parlor in the future? Which equipment is installed there and who makes the installation and maintenance of the machine?

Willi sorry not replied earlier,

Yea we use buckets, with a central vacume pump, you just plug the bucket into a overhead line. The new milking parlour will still be buckets but I'l be fitting a more powerful pump in to enable me to use up to 10 buckets, at the moment I can only use 4 and I only have 10 stalls, the new farm will have 20. There are large automated milking machines here, but very few and I've never seen one. I suppose that Chok Chai or some of the big Korat farms would have them. To be honest the cost of labour here is so low that it does not really justify spending the money on an automated machine.

I've seen machines like the one in the picture for sale but never seen them in use. The most popular make is SAC, which has a very good reputation here.

http://www.sac.dk/engelsk/index_eng.html

They also use Thecnic (i think) which is a lot cheaper but not as reliable (aparently)

We use SAC and I do all the mantanance myself ( not a lot really). Oh and DeLavel

There is a market for milking machines but you would have to do your reasherch carfully, spares, farm equipment is a good one, we have to drive about 120 km to but spares for our stuff, I'm currently looking at opening somewhere here selling farm equipment (but I've got more ideas than time or money to implament them!!)

As for Rubber trees have'nt a clue sorry it's big down south though.

[RamdomChances]

I advise against catfish

Plachon advises against keeping Plachon (catfish)

I did'nt see yor post cos I was writing mine, we nearly agree with each other

[MeNutsAreOnFire]

I advise against catfish, unless you have access to large amounts of cheap animal protein, as they're carnivores and won't nibble on leaves and crap, like the local carps (pla tapien, pla nai, pla yeesok, etc). which are easy to grow, so long as the water is green and fertile (from animal crap).

Plachon - I don't really know much about fish but I did read the below articale about fish and cattle production:

www.earth-policy.org/Alerts/Alert9.htm

It said:

A world that is reaching the limits with both oceanic fisheries and rangelands while adding 80 million people each year needs efficient new sources of animal protein. Herbivorous species of fish, such as carp grown in polycultures, carp grown in combination with rice, or catfish grown in ponds, offer a highly efficient way of expanding animal protein supplies in a protein-hungry world. Fish farming is not a solution to the world food problem, but as China has demonstrated, it does offer a potential source of low-cost animal protein for lower income populations.

Take a read of the whole thing it's probably right up your ally. Very eco friendly. You might even be advising people to farm catfish...

I'm pretty sure that the animals that fech high prices are for breeding, I dont know if you can sell the sperm (how do you collect it, its a picture I cant get out of my head  ) I know that sperm has to be kept frozen.

Someone told me that :

"The collection (of sperm) from what I have read involved inserting a probe up the bulls rectum...touching his prostate...zapping it and the bull ejaculates. A very stout cattle chute (US term for a metal holding cage) that captures a bull and then squeezes them to hold them still would be needed."

Sounds messy!! But maybe there are people who can come round and do it for me.

[RamdomChances]

I advise against catfish, unless you have access to large amounts of cheap animal protein, as they're carnivores and won't nibble on leaves and crap, like the local carps (pla tapien, pla nai, pla yeesok, etc). which are easy to grow, so long as the water is green and fertile (from animal crap).

Plachon - I don't really know much about fish but I did read the below articale about fish and cattle production:

I read the artical, catfish are carnivors and do require extra food to be given, they are still as the article explains more efficent at turning this into body weight than say cattle.

I think Plachon maybye getting at the fact that if you keep "vegiterian" fish they will largly eat what vegtable matter that is avalible in the pond.

"The collection (of sperm) from what I have read involved inserting a probe up the bulls rectum...touching his prostate...zapping it and the bull ejaculates.

This is Thailand you'd probably have to do it by hand

[chaiyapoon]

Ref feeding the fish plentyof shit;I was amazed when asking what the huts round the edge of the local fish farm were for,to be told they kept large numbers of chicken in them and the chicken shit fell into the lake and feed the fish.There certainly seemed a lot of bubbles below the huts.Maybe the Thais know what they are doing after all?

[Tony0703]

An interesting concept! Different but interesting! Some posts here seem a little far-fetched!

[RamdomChances]

An interesting concept! Different but interesting! Some posts here seem a little far-fetched!

Which ones Tony, if you have any info feel free to post

[Tony0703]

The one by MeNutsAreOnFire about the bull! Is this true? Maybe it is or is someone making it up? I have no info. on this it just seems amazing! Please enlighten me?

[RamdomChances]

Here you go mate, apparently its true, we forgot to mention the artificial vagina though

http://arbl.cvmbs.colostate.edu/hbooks/pat...collection.html

[plachon]

I advise against catfish

Plachon advises against keeping Plachon (catfish)

I did'nt see yor post cos I was writing mine, we nearly agree with each other

Hi Random, replied to this twice yesterday before lunch, but failed to send both times. Grrrrrrrrrrrr!

anyways, you're close with your translation, but not quite............I'm a snakehead, not a catfish (pla duk). Both carnivores, but quite different kettles of pla, in most other respects. 1/ Catfish skulk around at the bottoms of ponds, using their whiskers for food location (we're clean shaven ), snakeheads use their eyes; 2/ Catfish are basically lazy and sniff out meaty food, but are not fussy if it's long dead (rancid chicken carcasses being accepted), while snakeheads use their eyes and prefer livebait; 3/ Catfish are slimey critters, with small eyes, and bad breath, whilst snakeheads (several species), are evil-looking buggers with razor-sharp teeth from which nothing escapes. Apart from that, we're quite a civil lot!

Yes, a spooky coincidence us simultaneously posting something almost in agreement! So, there's hope yet that we won't come to blows over the subsidisation of the price of milk! (Still waiting for an opportunity to quiz somebody in the know)

MeNuts Are Onfire, catfish can be profitably farmed, under the right circumstances in a non-ecologically damaging way, but I still wouldn't recommend them to the novice kicking off with fish farming, especially in Isaan. It makes far more sense, to chuck a load of herbivorous fish in a pond and just fertilise it with muck and suppplementary feed with cheap local inputs, like rice bran and leaves rich in protein (cassava leaves and morning glory are good). some small catfish can be added later, when the fish are well grown and safe from being eaten by the predatory catfish, and fed worms, termites or fish guts - anything "meaty" in fact. Remember, this is in the smallish pond, village context i'm talking about, where the owners are resource-poor and not relying on it as their main source of income. If they can make a success of this to feed themselves, the neighbours and sell some surplus, then there is an argument for stepping up the scale of ops to a larger more intensive fish farm. But, like Random says, it doesn't pay to start big without the neccesary basic knowledge of fish raising.

Big catfish farms are mostly located inCentral plains, where they integrate them with intensive chicken farms, or use slaughterhouse wastes. using complete feeds is possible, but not very profitable, as the margins are very narrow (ditto intensive farmed tilapia in cages). CP and a few other agribusinesses promote this, but it's very risky and VERY polluting to the river/lake.

[maikaojai]

Does anybody have any experience with non native fruits such as grapes?

what varieties are available and which ones grow better in Thailand?

[RamdomChances]

There is actually a wineary (??) in my village, its called Chateau De Tak Far, and the red is'nt bad. dont really know much about the buissiness.

You'll have to rely on my "fishy friend" to imform you of the emviromental impacts

Heres a couple of links

In Thailand, the country that inspired the term New Latitude

Wines, there are now no fewer than five wineries turning

grapes into wine. One of the most ambitious, and one that uses

exclusively Thai-grown grapes, is the Siam Winery, founded as

recently as 1996 by the man who invented the energy drink Red

Bull, Khun Chalerm Yoovidya. Perhaps to atone for inflicting

Red Bull on the world's nervous systems, he is now trying to

develop Thailand's wine culture.

The grapes, Malaga Blanc for white wines and the local dark-

skinned Pok Dum with Shiraz and Black Muscat, are bought from

farmers in the Chao Prayha Delta, an hour south west of

Bangkok, where the vineyards effectively float on the river

water. Plantings have apparently increased from 8,000 to

12,000 acres of floating vines since 1996 and, while the name

they have chosen for their international brand, Monsoon

Valley, is not guaranteed to inspire traditional wine lovers

with confidence, they are very clear in their objective of

promoting the wines specifically to partner Thai food in

restaurants around the world. They are also developing

experimental vineyards further north on higher ground in the

Tap Gwang District, near Khao Yai, which is also the name of

the wine subsidiary of the brewers of Thailand's leading beer

Singha. The historic Chinese wine company Changyu recently

announced it is planning a joint venture winery with its Thai

importers, while Chateau de Loei has been producing red and

white table wines in north east Thailand for a decade now. The

latitude range of all these Thai vineyards is well under 18

degrees north of the equator. 

http://www.jancisrobinson.com/winenews/200...nenews0601.html

A couple of more links

http://www.ifcanet.com/resources/archives/...es/thailand.htm

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/9604/15/thai.wine/

[plachon]

Does anybody have any experience with non native fruits such as grapes?

what varieties are available and which ones grow better in Thailand?

In addition to the wines RC mentions, there's another one called Chateau d'Lo. A bloody respectable Cab Sauvignon, that sells for around 280 baht/bottle in Big C. It's produced in the hills of Khao Kor, Petchabun, by an ex-Thai consul to the Consultate in Bordeaux, so he certainly should know his vins. Have been to Chateau du Loei before, but was not that impressed with the wine or information available to the public, so reckon this place in Khao Kor has got to be worth a visit one day. anybody else ever been?

Basically, grapestock in Thailand is so far out of it's natural range that it's bound to be struggling in the tropical heat, even at altitude, that a whole cocktail of pesticides is likely to be essential to protect it from damage. But that won't stop rich entrepreneurs from trying, or for insisting on raising every breed of northern dog (huskies, St Bernards, etc) or growing strawberries and other temperate fruits. Where there's a will, there's a way; but rational economics or ecological sense are another matter altogether.

However, there is a type of local dark red grape in Isaan that I've heard called maak kiigo. It's quite rare, but at least one group has tried to turn it into wine (with good results) and I'm trying to find out more about it. Have even managed to get a few seeds to germinate and have them in bags at home. Will let you know if i can get them to grow as a vine and set fruit. Then it'll be homebrew time and will invite up contributors to this thread for a tasting!

[maikaojai]

While shopping at the big c in korat one day i saw a rather small bag of dates with a big price tag on it.

While im sure there were many extra fees attached to it as it was imported from Israel it got me to thinking, and perhaps bina can answer this if she ever comes back.

1) would date trees grow good in isaan?

2) how many different varieties of dates are there?

3) do Thai's eat dates?

im sure i could find out the answer to these questions if i weren't so lazy so if anyone else has any experience in growing dates, you could save me a little work and i can continue to sit and drink beer. thanks!!!!

[bina]

thais eat tamarinds (makaam) which translates too: tamar indi which means in hebrew : indian dates!!! tamar is date.

dates seem to be an arid climate tree that likes oasis areas; will ask around; but regionally, dates grow around ein gedi (judean desert area) and on south. also haifa and tiverius... but not in mountain areas so...but bringing more fruit to a country which has some of the best fruit around?! isnt that like bringing ice to iceland?

[plachon]

Too late Bina, dates are already here (and I do mean the woody variety! )

In fact, I have half a dozen in my garden, some of which are in fruit right now. The trees are all fat and healthy, but the fruits are thin and all stone. Don't know whether it's climate, soil or variety, but on the basis of this little population, I don't think that Isaan has a big future in date farming. Being desert plants, I'd imagine they'd prefer a lot drier climate than Isaan can provide (900 - 1800 mm of rain a year - not the dry region people like to think!)

However, always one willing to be proven wrong, I have tasted local dates (quite tasty)on sale from Chonburi Province, which is even wetter and more tropical than Isaan. So next time you're in Big C, ask the manager why he/she doesn't source Thai dates and save you, the customer, a fortune. The bag of Thai dates I got cost a mere 20 baht - there's another reason why they're not likely to take off - too low return, until they can be promoted as super-luxury health food. Unlikley, given most Thais dislike of food perceived as Middle Eastern (ahaan khaek).

[maikaojai]

..but bringing more fruit to a country which has some of the best fruit around?!  isnt that  like bringing ice to iceland?

Actually bina, Iceland and Greenland should switch names, but that's a different topic. Besides, where would the state of agriculture be in the world if people didn't try new things ?

Grapes are being sucessfully grown in Thailand. Oranges are a relatively new crop in Thailand.

Why not try to grow different kinds of fruits if it will help boost the income of the average Thai farmer?

By the way, I'd like to thank random chances, wash, plachon, and others who have posted informative information to this thread.

[Wash]

Why not try to grow different kinds of fruits if it will help boost the income of the average Thai farmer?

Oranges were part of our plans for an additional 18 Rai of land we planned to purchase and we were quite enthusiastic about the project until we discussed the idea with Thai friends.

Here is their opinion of doing Oranges. The surrounding destitute farmers would steal the trees during the night unless serious efforts were made for protection and secondly the unscrupulous would steal most of your oranges before you knew it.

I really hate to have to add this dimension to the discussion but it was enough to discourage us from planting the Oranges. This decision was made more valid when my nephew living in a Mekong River Home confirmed his observations of nightime raids on surrounding fruit trees by people arriving by boat, loading up and disapearing into the darkness.

These potential issues have been enough for us to not give further consideration to crops other than the rice that we grow for family needs since I don't want to build a 4 meter wall protected with guard dogs or tke other measures that would keep me occupied with negative issues.

I wish those of you good luck that are prepared to deal with all of those kinds of issues but it is not for me. Rice is enough fun by itself so we will buy our oranges at the market.

[plachon]

Now you've brought up this topic Wash, it would be interesting to hear from Random and anyone else who are farang farmers, how much problem there is with either out and out organised theft/rustling or small time filching/scrumping of fruit by jealous neighbours,etc? Especially interested to know if it occurs with cattle in some places and what is/can be done to avoid/minimise it. All anecdotes welcome.

By the way, whereabouts on the Mekong is your nephew and what fruit was being pinched in these raids?

V. briefly to Maikaojai, you're right agriculture would be unrecognisable from its current state if man hadn't dragged domestic animals and exotic plant material with him/her around the world. But it isn't necessarily a good thing and there have been lots of serious <deleted>-ups of the local environments as a result, some only just starting to be recognised. Australia, only having been relatively recently colonised, provides some of the starkest examples with cattle, sheep, pigs and goats coupled with land clearance for wheat, all doing their bit at causing massive land degradation. now it's being slowly tackled with the huge "Landcare" scheme which is trying to reverse some of the damage done.

Similarly bringing new fruits or other plants into Thailand, may have short term economic benefits to some, but may also have larger long term economic (often hidden) and environmental impacts for all, whether it is bringing in new diseases or being cultivated in a unsustainable manner for the local soil and water resources. The massive conversion of hundreds and thousands of rai of forest in the north of Thailand to oranges/mandarins (som kieow waan), being a prime example. They require large amounts of irrigation and all sorts of pesticides are liberally used to get the fruit to market, polluting the local streams and rivers in the process, not to mention the health of the sprayers and possibly us, the consumers. There are plenty of other examples I could give of "exotics" causing big damage.

[pnustedt]

These potential issues have been enough for us to not give further consideration to crops other than the rice that we grow for family needs since I don't want to build a 4 meter wall protected with guard dogs or tke other measures that would keep me occupied with negative issues.

An interesting concept and I believe it is well founded.

When my wife was a child even rice was stolen from the family fields and two of her brothers died from starvation. We will be building fences, using dogs and installing other security methods.

[bina]

"Besides, where would the state of agriculture be in the world if people didn't try new things ?"

probably better off!!!

plachon, is as usual, correct; in addition, fruits plants and animals that belong to a particular soil, also show up in the 'original' diet that people eat, meaning that they would be getting what is good for them from what they grow. in reality, what has happened is cash crop farming and then the diet changes usually becoming less beneficial to the people, etc. obviously people now adays are exposed to all kinds of good and junk food and they can more or less pick and choose, but given to choosing, better to stick with 'native' plants, trees, domestic animals that require less treatment for the particular climate. example: zaanan goats just dont fit israeli arid weather and thorny thorny grazing (their udders are hung to low!). the beduin goat goes for a whole day w/o water, drinking only a.m. and pm....

other examples: our 'baladi' chickens (the small black arabic chickens, baladi means local in arabic) lay well, eat everything, manage to escape the jaws of the weasels, etc. run loose, turn over the soil, control the flies, and taste good. they roost in trees and are harder to grab at night. the white, 'poultry farm' chickens, well-- cant find food if its in front of them, get lots of diseases, etc. are stupid and slow.

DOGS DOGS DOGS

different question: can any one tell me anything about the dogs that hang around the villages: the ones w/pricked up ears, curled tails, sor t of spitz like. there is a woman here that has been doing research for 30 years about native wild dogs: canaan dog, new guinea singing dog, dingo, and she would like to know more about the dogs i saw in the small villages (not the mixed breed shepherd etc mixes). and not the thai ridgeback. pics and info about relationship w/the people, etc. i know my friends use theirs for hunting but thats all i know. CAN PM ME , she is trying to preserve gene pools of these native dogs from aroundt the world -- the other name for these dogs are pariah dogs.

greenland, iceland -- no insults intended!

[maikaojai]

V. briefly to Maikaojai, you're right agriculture would be unrecognisable from its current state if man hadn't dragged domestic animals and exotic plant material with him/her around the world.

Plachon, you have a valid point here, but for the most part these problems are the result of mistakes made in the past. People recognize that you just can't import any plant or animal into any country anymore.

I think you missed my point though. What I was trying to say was trying different farming practices increased production while keeping top soil from blowing away.

Farming is an ever evolving process and I believe a person has to keep an open mind when it comes to trying new things. Otherwise, we wouldn't have the high production we enjoy today and would constantly have dust bowl like conditions.

Inever said I was going to plant date trees, was just trying to get a little info on the feasability of doing so. I would never intentionally import something that would be harmful to the enviroment. My father had a saying for something that would cover that " Don't shit in your own nest "

There is a govt. experimental farm i pass by on the way to Korat, someday i'll stop in and see if i can make any friends in there.

[maikaojai]

different question:

bina, since dogs are not farmed in thailand like livestock, I think perhaps your question would get a better response if you started a thread on this subject in GENERAL TOPICS.

[plachon]

different question:

bina, since dogs are not farmed in thailand like livestock, I think perhaps your question would get a better response if you started a thread on this subject in GENERAL TOPICS.

Wrong! Dogs are farmed in Thailand exactly like livestock. Not universally and not very publically, but like most of Unseen in Thailand, if you hang around the right places long enough, eventually the good, the bad and the ugly emerge from the shadows. In the case of dogs, there appear to be two types of "farming" :

1. Isaan-style ranching i.e. free range village dogs, (some of the type Bina would like more info on) are exchanged to a Sakhon Nakhon dealer for the price of a bucket, and then trucked back to a holding pen in Tha Rae district. Here they either meet their fate in one of the many local hound restaurants, or (and i have seen this personally), they are put in a 6-wheel truck and shipped off to Vietnam, via Laos, at the rate of 2 trucks a day (aprox. 500 dogs?)

2. Northern-style farming i.e. small dog farms hold and breed dogs in pens/cages and fatten them up for sale. popular with certain local consumers and possibly restaurants, but never seen myself. There was an article in the B. Post a couple of years ago on this trade, which went into the economics in quite some detail. Nan and Phrae provinces listed as hot spots for farms.

So, very much like intensive and extensive livestock rearing systems for a niche market in Thailand and a mass export market in Vietnam. It also wouldn't surprise me if some find their way as far as southern china. Then there is an active trade in their pelts too, some possibly ending up as driving/golf gloves.

The word on the street in Isaan is that black dogs taste the best, so hold onto your black labs tightly!