Drachma revolt adds unease to Greece's awkward alliance

[webfact]

Drachma revolt adds unease to Greece's awkward alliance
By DEREK GATOPOULOS

ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' power-sharing acrobatics look harder to perform by the day.

Opposition parties are propping up his left-wing government long enough to negotiate a new bailout and keep the country in the eurozone, while senior members of his own party, Syriza, have revived a campaign to bring back the drachma.

On Thursday, lead bailout negotiators are due in Athens. They will intensify a new round of talks for a massive third rescue package after Athens and lenders from other eurozone countries reached a bitterly fought compromise.

But Tsipras has a more pressing priority. He will be battling to keep control of Syriza at a meeting of the party's 200-member executive, facing dissenters who argue the Left has abandoned its principles over the past six months under the country's popular prime minister.

The uncertainty has renewed questions over whether Greece can — or should — endure two more years of austerity and bailout policies that have battered its economy and the political parties that implemented them.

"Tsipras doesn't have many options," said Dimitri A. Sotiropoulos, an associate professor of political science at the University of Athens, who sees a snap election in November as a strong possibility.

"One is to strengthen his position in his party ... but he is not fond of seeking confrontation," he said. "The other is to call an early election. The timing is sensitive: It would have to be after the bailout talks are concluded, but before opposition parties can regroup."

In a vote three weeks ago, Tsipras effectively lost his majority in parliament, when nearly one-fourth of Syriza's lawmakers refused to back new austerity measures. Pro-European Union opposition parties were left to save the bill.

Since then, far-left dissenters have grown more defiant.

Panagiotis Lafazanis, recently fired as energy minister in a reshuffle, called on the government and country to prepare for a national currency.

"An exit from the euro ... in spite of all the dark propaganda, would in no way be a disaster," he told cheering supporters packed into an Athens theater this week, celebrating five years since the launch of his political website "Iskra" — a name inspired by the Bolshevik underground newspaper once run by Vladimir Lenin.

Fully named the Coalition of the Radical Left, Syriza was formed as an alliance that eventually included about a dozen left-wing and anti-establishment groups who voted to become a unified party in 2013.

Before Thursday's party executive meeting, Tsipras acknowledged that Syriza was still adapting to becoming a party of government.

"We must admit that Syriza has not become a unified party," he said in a two-hour radio interview Wednesday.

"It's been described as a violent maturing process: Syriza went from a party that received 4 percent (in past elections) to one that now carries the hopes of the majority of the Greek people."

The 40-year-old Tsipras, despite the looming hardship for Greeks, has increased Syriza's lead in opinion polls since the January general election. He wants to hold a party conference after the bailout negotiations while dissenters want one immediately.

At the moment, said Athens University's Sotiropoulos, a party split still looks unlikely.

"Being in power has a binding effect ... and (dissenters) will not want to be held responsible for a break up," he said, before adding: "But ideology and emotion remain strong forces in Greek politics. And that can lead to the wrong decisions."


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-07-30

[Asiantravel]

I can't believe they are even thinking of doing this

Varoufakis faces criminal charges over plans to set up a parallel payment system

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/varoufakis-faces-criminal-charges-over-plans-to-set-up-a-parallel-payment-system-10424217.html

[lap82]

Hard to see a light on the end of the tunnel for Greece...

[Gsxrnz]

Hard to see a light on the end of the tunnel for Greece...

Oh yes there is.......it's a train.

[Rancid]

Now let's see, the bankers create fiat money out of thin air and loan it out. If the loans default then they go after hard assets as compensation. So they in effect acquire real assets out of nothing. This is where Greece will be soon.

Even Jesus only ever lost his cool with the money changers and they hadn't even thought up the criminal fiat scam on humanity back then.

[worgeordie]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

[Asiantravel]

I don't believe this! Another referendum

so will it be the same again this time? what is the point if no means yes and yes mean no

An exasperated Tsipras calls for Syriza referendum on bailout cancellation

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/30/us-eurozone-greece-syriza-idUSKCN0Q413L20150730?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

[ldnguy]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

They haven't given the Greeks much money so far. Most of the money has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

[ldnguy]

I don't believe this! Another referendum

so will it be the same again this time? what is the point if no means yes and yes mean no

An exasperated Tsipras calls for Syriza referendum on bailout cancellation

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/30/us-eurozone-greece-syriza-idUSKCN0Q413L20150730?feedType=RSS&feedName=worldNews

It's not a referendum. It's a Syriza vote. Totally different.

[JockPieandBeans]

Hard to see a light on the end of the tunnel for Greece...

Oh yes there is.......it's a train.

Train wreck

[does]

That's correct. Think of it as a loan sharking operation - and think about the source of the problems.

1 - Goldman banksters helped Greece to fiddled books to get the country into to euro zone.

2 - Foreign banks opened the money flood gates to Greece, in part to finance EU exports to Greece. Greeks bought more stuff on credit than they could ever afford to pay back.

3 - Greece ran out of cash and the EU came to the rescue - not bailing out the Greeks but bailing out the banks who couldn't collect on the Greek debts.

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

They haven't given the Greeks much money so far. Most of the money has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

[SheungWan]

So then, I guess when parents give their children money to help them with their mortgages, it isn't really going to the children its going to the evil mortgage loan bank/building society to bail them out.

[SheungWan]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

They haven't given the Greeks much money so far. Most of the money has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

So I guess companies don't really pay people all their monthly wages, it mostly goes straight to the building society and car loan company to pay off the debts.

[Srikcir]

"Tsipras doesn't have many options,"

He only needs one option that keeps him in power.

First he was against austerity..................................................He gains power.

Then he was for austerity........................................................He holds power

Followed by a referendum where he is against austerity........He defends his power

Followed after a referendum where he is for austerity............He saves his power

Now he is against austerity.....................................................He holds power

[Nickthegreek]

Easy Fix, send all the refugees stuck in Calais there and then get the rest of Europe to pay for their upkeep, gotta be cheaper long term for the UK and France !

[mango66]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

where on the world you get selary and dont work ??

where you never paid in a pension fund and you receive a pension ?

where in the world you already in the heavan, but you still receive your earth pension ?

where in the world a 5 member family can live only from a pension ?

...

...

no time to fill the list

Its Greece !!

Have you seen ever an interview from greece where the intervied worked ?

Never , they always enjoy life on the cafeteria !!

and on evening they are than not able to sleep,

so they go for a 2nd dinner at midnight !

The parliament usually beginn their session 10 PM,

why so late ?

before each PM is busy with his non taxable tourist business !!

[micmichd]

So then, I guess when parents give their children money to help them with their mortgages, it isn't really going to the children its going to the evil mortgage loan bank/building society to bail them out.

Yes, if the parents want back more than they give.

[micmichd]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

where on the world you get selary and dont work ??

where you never paid in a pension fund and you receive a pension ?

where in the world you already in the heavan, but you still receive your earth pension ?

where in the world a 5 member family can live only from a pension ?

...

...

no time to fill the list

Its Greece !!

Have you seen ever an interview from greece where the intervied worked ?

Never , they always enjoy life on the cafeteria !!

and on evening they are than not able to sleep,

so they go for a 2nd dinner at midnight !

The parliament usually beginn their session 10 PM,

why so late ?

before each PM is busy with his non taxable tourist business !!

Who in the world would cut pensions if 5 family members have to live on them?

It's EU.

[Steely Dan]

I can't believe they are even thinking of doing this

Varoufakis faces criminal charges over plans to set up a parallel payment system

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/varoufakis-faces-criminal-charges-over-plans-to-set-up-a-parallel-payment-system-10424217.html

Would he also face prosecution for advising people to use PayPal? It's moments like this where the reality of serfdom bubbles into consciousness.

[ldnguy]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

They haven't given the Greeks much money so far. Most of the money has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

So I guess companies don't really pay people all their monthly wages, it mostly goes straight to the building society and car loan company to pay off the debts.

Companies pay the wages directly to the employee. If the employee owes money to a bank and doesn't pay back the loan, the employer does not send the wages directly to the bank instead. If the loan isn't repaid the bank needs to write it off maybe.

In the case of Greece, Greece couldn't pay back the loans. What should have happened is that the banks who gave these loans that obviously could never be paid back should have been allowed to go bust. What happened is the Eurozone governments gave taxpayers money directly to the banks. The banks knew from day one that they could lend as much as they wanted because their friends in government would always be there to give them money from taxpayers instead. All of that is completely different from what you have said.

So to correct you, employee wages goes to the employee. It does not go straight to car loan companies, etc. And if the person doesn't pay his car loan, other taxpayers don't have money stolen from them to make up the loss.

I think you just don't understand the situation in Greece.

[SheungWan]

So then, I guess when parents give their children money to help them with their mortgages, it isn't really going to the children its going to the evil mortgage loan bank/building society to bail them out.

Yes, if the parents want back more than they give.

Huh? Actually parents give money to give the kids a chance to establish themselves in life and be a success. Anyway try to follow the logic of paying one's debts as a priority. Most people do.

[SheungWan]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

They haven't given the Greeks much money so far. Most of the money has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

So I guess companies don't really pay people all their monthly wages, it mostly goes straight to the building society and car loan company to pay off the debts.

Companies pay the wages directly to the employee. If the employee owes money to a bank and doesn't pay back the loan, the employer does not send the wages directly to the bank instead. If the loan isn't repaid the bank needs to write it off maybe.

In the case of Greece, Greece couldn't pay back the loans. What should have happened is that the banks who gave these loans that obviously could never be paid back should have been allowed to go bust. What happened is the Eurozone governments gave taxpayers money directly to the banks. The banks knew from day one that they could lend as much as they wanted because their friends in government would always be there to give them money from taxpayers instead. All of that is completely different from what you have said.

So to correct you, employee wages goes to the employee. It does not go straight to car loan companies, etc. And if the person doesn't pay his car loan, other taxpayers don't have money stolen from them to make up the loss.

I think you just don't understand the situation in Greece.

The situation in Greece is that Greece is responsible for paying its debts. The debts were freely entered into. The debts cannot be written off under EU rules and neither should they. if they were then the euro would be fatally undermined as all the other 'marginal' countries would play the same game. Greece tried to enlist their support and failed miserably. The next thing to address is that if Greece defaults and takes on the New Drachma who will lend to them? Greece is responsible once it receives funds to pay outstanding loans. This is what has happened to date (subject to delays of course). The choices are very simple. Either Greece implements the current agreement and actively introduces structural changes or it defaults and exits the euro either temporarily or otherwise. Greece cannot break the agreements and stay in the euro. That much anybody with a little sense understands apart from those on an anti-banking fetish mission. One other thing, the EU could just simply refuse to issue any more loans to Greece, but these are not blank cheques, they are incentives for countries, to assist them reform towards market economies and climb out of their difficulties. Some countries have made this effort. Greece is a serious offender, but now we are reaching towards an end-game. I think you don't understand economics, but never mind, most of those on a diet of populist loony tunes don't.

[Johpa]

So then, I guess when parents give their children money to help them with their mortgages, it isn't really going to the children its going to the evil mortgage loan bank/building society to bail them out.

But you forget to note in your weak analogy that to be more parallel to the Greek situation, the parent would be helping to pay the mortgage after the banks had taken possession of the home and the kids had been forced to move into a shack on the other side of town (austerity). But even that is a ridiculous analogy as countries and their debt are not analogous to private home owners.

[OJAS]

Where did all the money go,after all there are only 11 Million Greeks,

then they are going to give them several Billions more,thats crazy.

regards worgeordie

where on the world you get selary and dont work ??

where you never paid in a pension fund and you receive a pension ?

where in the world you already in the heavan, but you still receive your earth pension ?

where in the world a 5 member family can live only from a pension ?

...

...

no time to fill the list

Its Greece !!

Have you seen ever an interview from greece where the intervied worked ?

Never , they always enjoy life on the cafeteria !!

and on evening they are than not able to sleep,

so they go for a 2nd dinner at midnight !

The parliament usually beginn their session 10 PM,

why so late ?

before each PM is busy with his non taxable tourist business !!

And distilling ouzo is a very profitable activity, I gather!

[SheungWan]

So then, I guess when parents give their children money to help them with their mortgages, it isn't really going to the children its going to the evil mortgage loan bank/building society to bail them out.

But you forget to note in your weak analogy that to be more parallel to the Greek situation, the parent would be helping to pay the mortgage after the banks had taken possession of the home and the kids had been forced to move into a shack on the other side of town (austerity). But even that is a ridiculous analogy as countries and their debt are not analogous to private home owners.

The attempted analogy was a focus on giving/receiving assistance from a member of the family in order for the son/daughter to have a base to develop. This is how it works in practice. Looking for extreme examples in an attempt to break the intention of the analogy not really helpful at all. In general, parents may just provide the one-off assistance with the mortgage and those who have the capital may even finance seed capital to establish a business (start-up capital etc). However,there is an expectation that the monies provided will be used diligently as far as possible. Parents may even help out with debt on occasion. However, if the monies provided are not used to restructure one's lifestyle (as in the case of debt) and the child persists not only continually nagging for monies it not only cannot afford and insists on not changing. Plus, in addition browbeats the parents at every opportunity for being at fault for threatening to cut off their funds with nothing in return, then eventually patience runs out. End game? You're on your own now son. get on with it.

[ldnguy]

has gone straight to the banks. The loans were to rescue the banks not to rescue Greece. Loans were in effect transferred from banks to Eurozone taxpayers.

So I guess companies don't really pay people all their monthly wages, it mostly goes straight to the building society and car loan company to pay off the debts.

Companies pay the wages directly to the employee. If the employee owes money to a bank and doesn't pay back the loan, the employer does not send the wages directly to the bank instead. If the loan isn't repaid the bank needs to write it off maybe.

In the case of Greece, Greece couldn't pay back the loans. What should have happened is that the banks who gave these loans that obviously could never be paid back should have been allowed to go bust. What happened is the Eurozone governments gave taxpayers money directly to the banks. The banks knew from day one that they could lend as much as they wanted because their friends in government would always be there to give them money from taxpayers instead. All of that is completely different from what you have said.

So to correct you, employee wages goes to the employee. It does not go straight to car loan companies, etc. And if the person doesn't pay his car loan, other taxpayers don't have money stolen from them to make up the loss.

I think you just don't understand the situation in Greece.

The situation in Greece is that Greece is responsible for paying its debts. The debts were freely entered into. The debts cannot be written off under EU rules and neither should they. if they were then the euro would be fatally undermined as all the other 'marginal' countries would play the same game. Greece tried to enlist their support and failed miserably. The next thing to address is that if Greece defaults and takes on the New Drachma who will lend to them? Greece is responsible once it receives funds to pay outstanding loans. This is what has happened to date (subject to delays of course). The choices are very simple. Either Greece implements the current agreement and actively introduces structural changes or it defaults and exits the euro either temporarily or otherwise. Greece cannot break the agreements and stay in the euro. That much anybody with a little sense understands apart from those on an anti-banking fetish mission. One other thing, the EU could just simply refuse to issue any more loans to Greece, but these are not blank cheques, they are incentives for countries, to assist them reform towards market economies and climb out of their difficulties. Some countries have made this effort. Greece is a serious offender, but now we are reaching towards an end-game. I think you don't understand economics, but never mind, most of those on a diet of populist loony tunes don't.

I agree with most of what you said. But the fact is that banks lent Greece the money and of course Greece should pay them back. Banks charge interest rates based on the risk of default, so the banks know there is always a chance that money won't be paid back. So when Greece couldn't pay the money back the banks should have taken the hit. Instead, the EU, gave the banks money from taxpayers, and now it's the taxpayers that are owned the money.

You debts cannot be written off under EU rules, but that is exactly what will happen soon. Germany has already said that in a year of two they will consider an interest-free period of 20-30 years. That is the same as a write-off in all but name.

Who will lend to Greece if the default. No-one initially, but then of course some lenders will step in because there will be money to be made.

It is impossible for Greece to pay back what it owes because it is simply to much. They don't have the money and will never have the money.

The only reason the banks lent the money was because they knew it was close to zero risk. They knew the EU would give them the money even if Greece didn't. That is what's wrong with the situation.