Thai Navy releases document on why it needs submarines

[tigermoth]

Well, the report has certainly proved the utter stupidity of Submarines for Thailand. Again they have shot themselves in the foot by off the cuff comments from someone who knows very little of the subject. What the hell is the use of 3 subs which contrary to Admiral Kraisorns are easily identifiable in 50m of water and deeper. The most maritime western country in the SEA region, Australia, has 6 collins class subs of which more than one or two are rarely operational. They are about to upgrade to 12. Maintenance is astronomical, more so than any other form of maritime vehicle. Austrlia has the longest and deepest shoreline of any other country in the world so you can say there is some justification for submarines, but Thailand??????

[WitawatWatawit]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine6 purchases with multiple posts!

My posts are not defending the purchase.

They are just pointing out factual information.

Sorry if that surprises you.

Now I'm worried.

Why did you edit my post to leave out the last 2 sentences (reproduced below)?

Equally amazing is that this poster is a Newbie with just 8 posts.

Not that I'm suspicious or anything ....:-)

But to be fair to you, I want to welcome and encourage new members with different opinions, so I apologise if I seemed inhospitable (I was once a Newbie too!). Your opinion is as valid as mine in an open forum.

He is not a new member - he's a serial newbie. Has appeared under several names in recent times to play devil's advocate, or simply to get his pathetic jollies by pretending to be more intelligent than the rest of us. But he never makes a thoughtful post, just snipes at others. Ignore him. He'll quit after a while.

[nojoma]

perhaps to provide a suitable companion for the aircraft carrier??

[jlwilliamsjr18]

Boy Toys...has just been redefined.

[Oziex1]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

I'm guessing so I could get into trouble here, in the game of hide and seek we have an area of nations with experienced and equipped navies, in the other corner we have the Thais who have not operated submarines for 70 years.

[JoePai]

China also offered eight years of parts service and a two-year guarantee on all equipment

That is all well and good but is that unlimited mileage or capped at (say) 1,000 miles a year ?

[MZurf]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Miracle of miracles!

I did not expect to find a poster who would defend the submarine6 purchases with multiple posts!

My posts are not defending the purchase.

They are just pointing out factual information.

Sorry if that surprises you.

Now I'm worried.

Why did you edit my post to leave out the last 2 sentences (reproduced below)?

Equally amazing is that this poster is a Newbie with just 8 posts.

Not that I'm suspicious or anything ....:-)

But to be fair to you, I want to welcome and encourage new members with different opinions, so I apologise if I seemed inhospitable (I was once a Newbie too!). Your opinion is as valid as mine in an open forum.

He is not a new member - he's a serial newbie. Has appeared under several names in recent times to play devil's advocate, or simply to get his pathetic jollies by pretending to be more intelligent than the rest of us. But he never makes a thoughtful post, just snipes at others. Ignore him. He'll quit after a while.

Thanks for that piece of info, but how do did you get this information? If a troll can be sniffed out and pushed into the sun light before they get too entrenched that would definitively be a good thing for the quality of this forum

[MikeTexas]

That would be three subs plus support facilities. Operating in water only 50m deep would be a joke if it wasn't suicidal. And for the record 20m is just over periscope depth. So I'd have to agree this whole project is only about the kickback.

[JAG]

What I am confident about is if they do get these submarines your average open water diver will be able to dive on the wrecks in the Gulf of Thailand if they are in 40 - 50M. Assuming the height of the subs is 16 -18M. But how long after the subs are commissioned do we have to wait???

Oh not long - until they have read their first Tom Clancy novel and decide to untie, rev up and go out and have a crack themselves!

[bheard]

What an embarrassing article. It demonstrates the incompetence of the Royal Thai Navy leadership. Wearing lots of gold piping and medals doesn't make one a competent naval officer.

The submarines could be used for at least 30 years, the Navy stated.

Seriously? I mean, seriously? What industrial market products manufactured by China last more than 10 years? The submarines will be obsolete in 10 years as they are not cutting edge or state of the art now.. Why make a claim of a 30 year life expectancy?

The Navy said although there was no war looming, maritime conflicts between countries existed and no one could guarantee that the conflicts would not descend into wars. Having the submarines would be a defensive strategy against wars and a balance of power mechanism.

The only country that presents a military threat is China. Why then would one purchase submarines from a potential enemy? The Chinese will be able to track the Thai submarines and will be able to easily sink them.

In terms of its marine capability, the country is lagging 10 years behind neighbouring countries like Singapore, Vietnam and Indonesia.

Then deal with the training and education gap first. Purchase sufficient numbers of coastal defense vessels first.

In response to claims the Yuan Class S26T would not be useful because it can only dive in shallow water and are easy targets for enemies, the Navy argued that the Gulf of Thailand is about 50 metres deep and some operations need to be done near the shore. Planes cannot see submarines which dive down 20 metres, it said.

Seriously? Is he for real? It's 2015 not 1945. A quick look at the internet will provide a quick listing of common methods to track/hunt submarines.

It is reported that the best depth for a submarine to avoid detection by a hull-mounted sonar (conventionally regarded as the Sonic Layer Depth) is 100 meters+ Modern aircraft can use buoy systems, magnetic anomaly detection, and probes. Maybe he needs to watch the Discovery Channel? How is the admiral going to defend his gulf if his chinese submarines stick out like a Bangla lady boy and become an easy target?

Helicopters and airplanes can detect submarines at depths greater than 50m. Maybe the Thai navy should ask for a demonstration at the next US/Australia/Canada training exercise.

The Chinese subs are also equipped with weapons, including torpedoes and sea mines, the Navy said, adding that their safety is on par with European submarines with a double-hull body.

How does he know about the safety? What's a safer vehicle. a German designed and manufactured car or a knockoff from China? How then could the Chinese build a safe submarine? Are the Chinese known for safety or quality?

Former Democrat Party MP Watchara Petthong disapproved of the purchase. "I wonder if the move to push for the sub purchase has something to do with the commission fee,'' he said.

Wow. Integrity and honesty is still alive in Thailand.

While I agree with all you say, the fact is that he is not talking to you.

He is talking to a Thai population of gullible and ignorant people (cultivated to be that way by the education system), which even includes some of those at his level. He is also, as others note, interested in the face, the money and all the other accutrements his position gives him.

[malt25]

Well, the report has certainly proved the utter stupidity of Submarines for Thailand. Again they have shot themselves in the foot by off the cuff comments from someone who knows very little of the subject. What the hell is the use of 3 subs which contrary to Admiral Kraisorns are easily identifiable in 50m of water and deeper. The most maritime western country in the SEA region, Australia, has 6 collins class subs of which more than one or two are rarely operational. They are about to upgrade to 12. Maintenance is astronomical, more so than any other form of maritime vehicle. Austrlia has the longest and deepest shoreline of any other country in the world so you can say there is some justification for submarines, but Thailand??????

Just one small correction. Australia's coast line isn't number 1, I think Oz comes in at about number 6 or 7. Canada has the longest coastline by far.

[ChrisY1]

A completely crazy system whereby each military discipline, army, navy and air force, manage and spend their own budgets....the Defence Dept. little!

Edited July 31, 2015 by ChrisY1

[727Sky]

With aircraft like the Japanese P-1 or the American P-8 subs are toast. If they get in a war with anyone who can afford a 165 million P-1 their subs will remain in dry dock or be sunk.

http://asia.nikkei.com/Japan-Update/Japan-s-submarine-killer-tantalizes-West

[tuanku]

The only significant roles for the Navy in the foreseeable future are fisheries patrol, piracy prevention, interception and arrest of people traffikers and preservation of the areas of coastline which they own. In each of these cases submarines are of questionable use.

[tx22cb]

China also offered eight years of parts service and a two-year guarantee on all equipment

That is all well and good but is that unlimited mileage or capped at (say) 1,000 miles a year ?

I'd be surprised if the subs manage more than 1000 miles a year, seeing as the Navy's aircraft carrier can't manage that either.

And no VIPs will want to take a joy ride in a cramped smelly sub.

[Jimbolai]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

Just Google Earth and see the depth of the gulf of Thailand and see how ridiculous it is to get sub marines. Buying them from China is even more ludicrous as China will be the aggressor. Better learn Chinese.

[sabaii69]

No there's no wars yet but there are maritime conflicts which could descend into such so it makes sense to buy from one of the main protagonists, certainly ensures neutrality and national security.

Anyway 3 neighbours have subs so we want them too and if we don't get them we'll hold our breath until we do.

Buying them from the Chinese will be helpful in the future when they board them; the controls will already be in Chinese.

[ALLSEEINGEYE]

so 36 Bn to buy them and how much per year to maintain and run them? Why do you need to patrol from under the water? Why can't you use normal patrol craft and this way would at least increase the perception of having a force patrolling instead of hiding under the water where no one can see you.

[geriatrickid]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Yes. However, submarines that do not want to be found do not operate in shallow waters. Those submarines do not come from manufacturers who have relied on technology stolen from the USA, UK, Germany and France. More importantly, the submarines won't be filled with hidden Chinese tracking devices.

[NickJ]

And if I get a submarine I will eat all my dinner.....and I will help around the house more.....and I will get straight a's in school and ........................

[robblok]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

Yes. However, submarines that do not want to be found do not operate in shallow waters. Those submarines do not come from manufacturers who have relied on technology stolen from the USA, UK, Germany and France. More importantly, the submarines won't be filled with hidden Chinese tracking devices.

I agree mostly but don't you think the US and other countries have hidden stuff in the equipment they sell. I don't think that the US is anymore honest as China about stuff like this. All major powers play dirty US included. I would not be surprised if there are back doors in the stuff they sell too.

[mikiea]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

It's not only 50 meters deep and are you aware that Thailand also has another entirely different body of water on its western front and that patrol boats and submarines have different capabilities and missions?

Torpedoing Rohingya boats?

have you forgotten ? one of the dozen or so admiral's in the navy's advanced "strike force" group asked if the subs could be equipped with retractable wheels . that would eliminate the need for "camo sub pens" as they could be driven to "dry dock" for repairs and maintenance . the sight of a sub on the streets would make the motorcycle tuffs think twice about speeding . no one wants a Chinese torpedo up their keester ....

[Stargeezr]

If Thailand get 3 working, newish submarines, then it will be 3 submarines better off than Canada.

Our country bought some British trash. Four submarines purchased, in which 3 were brought to Canada

in floating dry dock ships, and the one that tried to get to Canada under power, had to be towed part way.

It is a pathetic chapter for Canada, and we still have no submarines that can effectively protect our country.

If Thailand has effective navy and marine ships, then again Thailand is much better off than Canada.

Canada has some Frigates, and a few other vessels, but we retired our support ship and cannot even

fuel up or supply our navy. It is shameful.

Basically I do agree that most countries would be better served to have more surface ships, and aircraft

to defend their country. I guess if we ever had a large war, then some extra subs, may come in handy,

but they are very expensive and limited in what they can do.

I just hope that I can get to the end of my life without seeing the start of Armageddon.

[X pat]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

50 m, WWll depth charges can go deeper then that,and they can be dropped from patrol boats.

[AdamRich]

As a former submariner, I had to click on this article for a good laugh.

[Fat Haggis]

If Thailand get 3 working, newish submarines, then it will be 3 submarines better off than Canada.

Our country bought some British trash. Four submarines purchased, in which 3 were brought to Canada

in floating dry dock ships, and the one that tried to get to Canada under power, had to be towed part way.

It is a pathetic chapter for Canada, and we still have no submarines that can effectively protect our country.

If Thailand has effective navy and marine ships, then again Thailand is much better off than Canada.

Canada has some Frigates, and a few other vessels, but we retired our support ship and cannot even

fuel up or supply our navy. It is shameful.

Basically I do agree that most countries would be better served to have more surface ships, and aircraft

to defend their country. I guess if we ever had a large war, then some extra subs, may come in handy,

but they are very expensive and limited in what they can do.

I just hope that I can get to the end of my life without seeing the start of Armageddon.

You're missing out on a great movie with Bruce Willis, and a great soundtrack too, the start is pretty slow right enough

[Fat Haggis]

And as for the comment about not being able to "see" submarines deeper than 20 meters, I can only wonder if the good Admiral has heard of now ancient technology like sonar. Not only would they be easy to find

Are you aware how difficult it is for even the best sonar to locate a submarine that doesn't want to be found?

Didn't think so.

I doubt these subs have any countermeasures to active sonar. So long as a sub is in range of active sonar it can be seen.

A Submarine avoiding detecting relies heavily on a well trained crew, unless the RTN have had Submariners on placements already within the PLA Navy, serving on their Subs, they face a good few years to be up to the standards of their "neighbours"

[klauskunkel]

forensic examination of the document revealed an erased (correction fluid) text:

"continued drooling by the Navy will raise the water level in the Gulf of Thailand"

Edited July 31, 2015 by klauskunkel

[kaorop]

If the gulf of Thailand is only 50 m deep, then there is no sub needed. Purchase patrol boats.

The sea around Singapore is average 40 meters deep but they got 6 subs and 2 more on order they will have 8 subs and Indonesia is aiming for 18 subs

Lets not forget

Singapore = non 3rd world country

Indonesia = huge coastal area

Thailand = 3rd world + small coastal area

We all know the reasons, skimming and ego

Edited July 31, 2015 by kaorop

[PeVee1st]

Haven't you worked out why they are stationed in tne Gulf, because that is where the infrastructure ie located, golf courses, bars, etc.!!!