Understanding Your Thai Bf/gf

[ChrisP]

One of the things that I struggle with - especially as I don't actually live there yet - is trying to understand the thought processes and cultural moires of my Thai bf. Apart from our age-difference (31years) I am constantly reminded that our cultures and everyday interactions are different.

I've learned many things already - Thai modesty, importance and support of family and friends, not "thinking" or analyzing so hard... But I'd love to try and understand more.

The love, cuddling and intimacy don't seem so different though...!

Anyone have any views to help this understanding..?

ChrisP

[Bluecat]

Apart from our age-difference (31years)

A minor point, 31 years?

Please with such difference of age, culture and nationality are minor factors,...

[Sandy]

I dont see what u need to understand, love should be way more than enough. Even with the age difference. But i assume most thais are as not open minded as farangs are. They will take the age diff and look at that hard.

[ChrisP]

A minor point, 31 years?

Please with such difference of age, culture and nationality are minor factors,...

Actually, Bluecat and Sandy... the age difference doesn't appear to be a problem.. even with his family. .. although I will agree that it can be a factor.. what he considers important, I may not.. etc.

But, I guess I'm trying to get a deeper understanding of how Thai's generally approach relationships.. especially gay ones. Just as "butterflies"?... or do most of them go deeper and more seriously..

ChrisP.

[Bluecat]

the age difference doesn't appear to be a problem.. even with his family. ..

Chris, is there money involved?

[ChrisP]

Nope.. there isn't any money involved....

ChrisP.

[Bluecat]

Nope.. there isn't any money involved....

ChrisP.

My mistake, sorry.

So, I guess you got the right number and anything we could tell you would be a waste of time. Trust your feelings and do not ask any opinion from anybody, it will probably confuse you more than it will help you,...

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Nope.. there isn't any money involved....

ChrisP.

You don't live together ?

[ChrisP]

You don't live together ?

No.. I live in Los Angeles, and he lives in BKK..

(I wish we did..!)

ChrisP.

[Sandy]

I just wanna wish the best of luck on your relationship. Long distance is usually hard as it is.

And i dont think that your culture differences would effect anything. Actually, 2 different cultures are better. I have a mexican BF and our cultures are so different. But we both now understands them and it makes our relationship even more interesting and fun.

[sbk]

Well, Chris, I don't know how different gay Thai men are from straight, but having been married to a Thai man for 15 years I have, at least, a few insights into his character!

First off, not all thai men are butterflies, many are not. Its just that the ones that are that way are more visible.

My husband has never had a problem admitting when he is wrong (shocking but true) which has always made it easy for me to own up when I am at fault. Don't know if he is an aberration or not (suspect he must be). He does however, avoid conflict if at all possible (no surprise there) and thus that means, avoiding most emotional discussions. We have, on the average, one major argument a year.

In many thai intimate relationships there is generally one dominant partner. Many people here have a hard time understanding ours because we treat each other like equals. In my in-laws house, my father-in-law is the dominant person, in our neighbor's, it is the wife. I suspect this has to do with education levels and outside experience but have no way of judging that.

Thai people are vastly different in many ways and often you will find their way hard to comprehend, just remember, that it is their way of doing things. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, just makes it their way.

Intercultural relationships are just as difficult as relationships between people of large age differences. If the age difference doesn't bother you then try not to let the cultural differences bother you either. Good luck!

[Guest Lazarus]

I dont see what u need to understand, love should be way more than enough. Even with the age difference. But i assume most thais are as not open minded as farangs are. They will take the age diff and look at that hard.

You are joking of course...

[Sandy]

Does it sound like i was joking? And what part are u asking if i was joking about? The love? The age? or The open-minded part?

But if 2 people love eachother, gay or straight, that should be enough. Who cares if their culture is different? After a while, people will get use to it.

[ChrisP]

Sandy...

I think - and find from my experience - that it's the other way around... Thais are actually much more "open-minded" about the age difference than Westerners are... which is refreshing!

ChrisP

[ChrisP]

Sbk..

Thai people are vastly different in many ways and often you will find their way hard to comprehend, just remember, that it is their way of doing things. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong, just makes it their way.

Intercultural relationships are just as difficult as relationships between people of large age differences. If the age difference doesn't bother you then try not to let the cultural differences bother you either.

Thanks for the note about your relationship.. it's appreciated very much as another piece of the puzzle. I know Thai people are vastly different in many ways.. and it was just "those ways" I was hoping for people to elaborate and illuminate...

The intercultural differences don't bother me.. I just feel I'd like to become more educated as to what they are... so I know what to expect.

Cheers

ChrisP

[Guest Lazarus]

Does it sound like i was joking? And what part are u asking if i was joking about? The love? The age? or The open-minded part?

But if 2 people love eachother, gay or straight, that should be enough. Who cares if their culture is different? After a while, people will get use to it.

Sorry Sandy wasn't very clear was I. The bit about falang being more open minded than Thais.

I thought you were having a bit of tongue in cheek humour there. You're right about people getting used to it though. Falang may not, people certainly do.

Sorry I spoke.

[sbk]

chris, its really hard to explain so perhaps some examples would work better. For instance, one afternoon I was eating a sandwich, it was my first food of the day (at around 4 pm) and I was starving. My husband asked if he could have some and I said, " sorry I am starving and you have already eaten, do you mind if I eat my sandwich." Well, he was completely offended, thais share their food with their loved ones and to deny someone you love your food is, I guess, tantamount to saying you don't care about them. Whereas if it had been a western person (male or female) and they had asked and been turned down they would have said something like, "sorry, I didn't know".

Another example; If I make a statement about something that he deems a criticism of thailand and/or its culture, he can get offended. Recently a monk from another province came round the island with little buckets with those donation trees in it and left one at our resort. Needless to say, most farang didn't know what the heck it was and so the only money on it came from my husband. I said something along the lines of, I don't know why he left it here, and he said, "not every province is as rich as ours" in quite an offended tone. When my point had been why he left it in a place full of farang where surely it would have garnered more donations in a place frequented by thai people.

I have always said, if you present a western foreigner with a problem he or she will solve it by following 1,2,3,4, 5 to a solution. Whereas a Thai person will look at the same problem and come up with A,B,C,D,E to a different solution. Same problem, different viewpoint, different solution. They problem solve in an entirely different way than we do. My husband and I have been married for 15 years and there are times when I think, "what the heck is he doing?" and, I am sure, there are times when he thinks, "what the heck is she doing?"

[Bluecat]

For instance, one afternoon I was eating a sandwich, it was my first food of the day (at around 4 pm) and I was starving. My husband asked if he could have some and I said, " sorry I am starving and you have already eaten, do you mind if I eat my sandwich." Well, he was completely offended, thais share their food with their loved ones and to deny someone you love your food is, I guess, tantamount to saying you don't care about them.

Thai LOVE to eat and if you want to make ANY Thai happy, invite them for lunch/dinner, whatever involves food.

But jeez, sbk, 4 p.m. and no food yet. What are you trying to do or prove?

[ChrisP]

Thanks sbk....

I love examples like that...! Great.

I think this is similar to the communication difference between men and women.. (at least in my experience.!)

Before I "changed teams" I was married to a woman in the UK.. and quite often I would say something, and get the reply "So what you're REALLY saying is..." and it wasn't what I actually said.. it was what she heard.

ChrisP

[sbk]

Thai LOVE to eat and if you want to make ANY Thai happy, invite them for lunch/dinner, whatever involves food.

But jeez, sbk, 4 p.m. and no food yet. What are you trying to do or prove?

I was busy! Didn't have the time nor the inclination to eat! Cleaning the house after being away for a month; ancient potatoes, scary balloon-like watermelons, smells like you wouldn't believe! My hubby claimed he didn't have time to clean. Ahem, pigsty was the term that came to mind at the time

[Sandy]

Sorry Lazarus...i do have a bit of a sharp tongue, but dont mean too much of it. My bad.

[mrmnp]

My Thai just splits when I get angy and my anger is not understood. I am the dominant one.

Like Sandy, we have about one row a year, and it is rarely serious. However, it seems that trying to understand is my role, partner merely accepts.

When I get hungry, and that is like clockwork, I can be a very difficult, angy person. I taught my Thai early on, as if I needed to, and thus there is a danger time twice a day at the same time. Whether I have had a big, late breakfast and am not hungry until 2pm., my Thai still considers 11:30 the start of "danger time" and starts getting food ready. I take it as a lack of understanding, just acceptance.

I was raning angry today for the first time. I had been watching the Master's golf tournament and was just on the last hole, when the winner shot a birdie to be only the fourth player in the history of the tournament to have won it on the last stroke, a very loud Thail telephone call was going in the room on a cell phone. I yelled, grabbed my earphones and continued to watch my high drama.

Just as the winner and an unexplained person sat down in the club house to talk to the announcer and receive his trophy, a green jacket, my Thai started talking in my ear, laughing, and completely trying to distract me from the culmination of my afternoon. I yelled leave me alone for a minute, I want to watch this important part. More interference, more yelling, more interference, more yelling until I was so mad I couldn't speak.

Finally I was left alone, but I missed most of the climax of the tournament. When I tried to reason with my Thai, I was advised that I was thought as very funny when I yelled about the cellphone call and even funnier when I got upset about being interrupted and etc.etc. with profuse apologies, etc.

If the truth were known, I was just not understood, my anger was not understood, and apology was just the way of making the mindunderstanding go away. I have a promise, in blood, that if I hold up my index finger, this means leave me alone for a minute, until I am done with what I am doing. This has worked before, but not today.

Will I try to understand it further, no, will I hold up my finger when asking for a minute, yes, will it happen again, probably. A cultural difference that love overcomes quite easily.

I have never understood the Thai practice of allowing anyone to interrupt a conversation, interupt a transaction occuring at the head of a line or just plain turning away to help someone else when you are being helped with something.

It is quite annoying, especially when I have waited to get to the head of a line.

This Thai practice may lie at the bottom of this afternoon, a lack of understanding in the Thai culture of doing one thing at a time. I, perhaps more than most, have a very focused concentration, to the point of not even knowing when my secretary has come and gone from my office, even leaving things on my desk unnoticed. Thus, I am probably the extreme in the other direction.

Sandy's point about love solving all is so right. My Thai and I are very much in love and have seen it grow for the past two years to the point that it is very easy to be forgiving of each other. Especially from the Thai side. Whenever I apologise for something I feel I could have avoided with thought, my Thai says "don't worry, I love you very much". What a guilt earaser!

Another Thai practice is a disregard of time. Being late is to be expected. Keeping you waiting is not even on the radar of impolite acts. Complaining about their being late, falls on deaf ears as they were undobtedly involved with something or they wouldn't have been late. Don't ever apply a western expectation of how long someone who is Thai will be gone, no matter how much extra time you allow for emergencies, as you will still be underestimating considerably. The flip side is that you will never be taken to task for making them wait, or for being late. I wonder if there is even a word for punctuality in Thai?

[wowpow]

When you look at the degree of success in Homosexual relationships in the West, it becomes all the more remarkable that any form of relationship can work with the vast differences between Farangs and Thai boys and yet it happens.

I think that Farang-Thai relationships are more often Dominent/Subordinate (on the surface) than in the West where the 'ideal' seems often to be a joining of equals.

I don't understand Thai culture but I do understand it quite a lot more than some farangs who have lived here 18 years and speak Thai.

ChrisP maybe you could start by reading Letters of Uncle E on Floatinglotus They are well worth a read if anyone has any interest in gay Thailand and I think there is a book of them.

I would also recommend 'Culture Shock Thailand' for a glimpse into Thai lifetyles and beliefs.

I would suspect that some study of Buddhism would help but I have not found any reading which tells me what it is like for Thais with their mix of religions and ghosts and respect.

I live in Pattaya and mix with the ex-pat gay community. The most common form of relationship seems to develop into a Father-son sort of thing - with the farang as the Papa and the Thai 'taking care'. It is incredibly rare for the relationship not to have some financial involvement - nigh impossible. A Thai expects an older person to pay for meals and such and a trickle of advantage if not actual cash. I do know of an instance of a rich Thai living with and supporting a much older Farang.

[mrmnp]

Wowpow: Great name for a poster who uses sweeping generalities such as:

When you look at the degree of success in Homosexual relationships in the West

With the hetero-sexual divorce rate in the west greater than 50%, I don't see any merit in singling out gays as a class who uniquely have a poor relationship record. With marriage denied to homosexuals, is it any wonder relationships among gays don't seem to last long. Despite that, there are so many long term gay relationships that I know of personally that I doubt your sweeping generality is at all accurate.

You don't seem to make much of a point of the statement, so you probably said it as a prelude to your other sweeping generalities such as :

think that Farang-Thai relationships are more often Dominent/Subordinate (on the surface) than in the West where the 'ideal' seems often to be a joining of equals.

If anything, in the West, a joining of equals is the rarety, perhaps by describing it as an "ideal", you tacitly admit that.

The number of "married well" subordinate partners in the West surely outnumber the number in Thailand, since there are more people in the west.

While my daughter's relationship has a dominate partner, it is she, most of the retlationships I have observed, including my own, the dominant partner is the male. Certainly in Thailand, the male is dominant in Thai relationships most of the time since he is the breadwinner and head of the household, a womens Thai cultural subservience is reinforced.

Why should it be any different with gays? My observations of farang who come to Thailand to seek the companionship of Thai men have led me to believe that the vast majority of them are unattractive, overweight and incapable of obtaining a relationship with a younger man in the country from which they have come. Since they are generally better off than single Thai men, they would have more money to spend. Thai gay men's desire for farang most certainly involves a desire to "marry well". The same motivation driving a vast number of western women.

Whenever a older person is seen with a younger person, those with a true age bias, attribute it to something other than love, ie. father and son, dominant and subservint or money motivated. If anything, traditional Thais don't have the age bias as westerners have. Such Thais can and do have very successful relationships with Farang, providing the Farangs treat them as equals. I have noticed, that as young Thai gays adopt more and more of western culture, they become more and more age conscious.

I am most troubled by your generality:

It is incredibly rare for the relationship not to have some financial involvement - nigh impossible. A Thai expects an older person to pay for meals and such and a trickle of advantage if not actual cash.

I submit that any relationship, anywhere is the world, is subject to the same generalization, it is not unique to Thailand.

I speak with the authority of having been in many long term relationships, over five years, and I have found very little difference between relationships in the West and Thais and their relationships with Farang and vice versa, other than the strong deisre to "marry well" to a Farang present in traditional Thai gay society, coupled with less of an age bias than in the West.

[wowpow]

I wish you a very happy Songkran.

[ChrisP]

ChrisP maybe you could start by reading Letters of Uncle E on Floatinglotus.com They are well worth a read if anyone has any interest in gay Thailand and I think there is a book of them.

I would also recommend 'Culture Shock Thailand' for a glimpse into Thai lifetyles and beliefs

Wowpow

Many thanks for these.. they're good.. I already found them..! I hope others reading this will check them out.

ChrisP.

[expatwannabe]

Enjoyed the stories. I have one of my own...

I was in a restaurant with my Thai bf and we ordered two dishes plus steamed rice. When the dishes arrived, the one 'he' had selected turned out to have a very long, black hair in it! He pulled it out, looked at me with some disgust, and said he didn't feel very well. I asked him to share my food, but he said no, it was "ok." I ate a little, and he just looked so unhappy, so I thought I would take control of the situation. I called the waitress over and, in order to avoid confrontation, asked her to bring us "one more" of the dish my bf had ordered. I told her we were "very hungry!" She left with a confused expression, and 30 seconds later came back to our table to confirm my request. "You want one more??" she said. I replied, "Yes, one more please." She left again, and then a more experienced (and linguistically adept) waitress came to our table. "May I help you?" she said. I explained that I wanted to order an additional dish, but she didn't believe me. "Is something wrong with your food?" she asked. I looked at my bf, and I knew I was in trouble! My boyfriend then calmly showed the waitress the hair and explained to her in Thai that "the foreigner doesn't understand our culture" and "he is complaining because he found a hair in the food." She said, "ohhh, ok!" Of course, she understood that the foreigner would be so rude as to complain! A few minutes later the female cook (replete with hairnet) brought a new dish to our table. My boyfriend looked disapprovingly at me. A no-win situation!

[ProThaiExpat]

espatwannabe: Wonderful story and so true. Your sensitivity to the situation is inspiring. This old expat in a LTR would just let the Thai work it out for themself.

Thus, I must truly be an "bad farang" as I have stopped trying to prevent, by advice, my Thais chronic toilet vists after eating Thai food out of dubious vendors (they are so delicious is the rationaization) obtaining proper service and food preparation as ordered in restaurants (blame it on me the old farang), follow up telephone calls when appointment times are ignored, accepting b/s service staff's explanations about why something is so, when it is clearly wrong, etc

"TIT" can be treated by expats as a curable condition, a fact of life, an excuse, B/S by the incompetent, its up to you. Mai pen rai works everytime if you don't care and are trying to develop an attitude of not caring. If my own life is not directly affected by TIT, then my pen rai, however, if I am directly affected, I ensure my rights are respected, especially since I am paying. Thai service staff, who are lazy, incompetent and un-caring got that way by applying my pen rai. In Thai establishments that don't let staff "get away with it" are models of efficiency, service and caring equal to anywhere in the west.

[expatwannabe]

Good comments, ProThai. but you're not a bad expat. You do exactly what any Thai would do -- leave it up to the other person to act. I dare say had you (or I) been in another country, our reactions would have been stronger. But as you said, TIT. Nevertheless, I won my bf's heart long ago by standing up for him. Even if he was embarrassed this time, I'm pretty sure he was also secretly proud. Would have been nice to hear it, though!

[ChrisP]

They just LOVE you to be "jealous" of them... of another guy's interest in them. Even if they don't tell you... they get off on it.

Btw, what is "TIT"... or am I just being dumb?

ChrisP