Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[Darkknight666]

JLC

There are people who say directly it was NS and they can't be a witness. I cannot post it because it's in Thai but I'll be happy to PM it to you

There are plenty of people who know what happened, even some claimed eye witnesses but, they're scared as well. I wonder if that's because of the Burmese mafia on Tao....

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

I think it's safe to say, translators being warned off indicate witnesses would also be warned off. If you were a witness in this case and had evidence, who would you give it to? And, that's a big risk to take when what likely would happen is the cops would turn the witness away. But, hey, Crazythedragon is a reliable source to you.

[smedly]

JLC

There are people who say directly it was NS and they can't be a witness. I cannot post it because it's in Thai but I'll be happy to PM it to you

There are plenty of people who know what happened, even some claimed eye witnesses but, they're scared as well. I wonder if that's because of the Burmese mafia on Tao....

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

who would they come forward too and who is going to protect them - the police ?

[JLCrab]

JLC

There are people who say directly it was NS and they can't be a witness. I cannot post it because it's in Thai but I'll be happy to PM it to you

There are plenty of people who know what happened, even some claimed eye witnesses but, they're scared as well. I wonder if that's because of the Burmese mafia on Tao....

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

who would they come forward too and who is going to protect them - the police ?

Beats me -- I made a statement that no one has come forward. There may be plenty of people as above who have first hand information of the crimes of that night but they have not come forward to anybody. If you choose to disagree with that statement then fine.

[Monkeyrobot]

Why come here if you cannot realese the findings? Looks like they got a free trip at the taxpayers expense .

[Gweiloman]

Gwieloman

Thanks for the link, ,hadnt read that. Just one query regarding this, what about the statement from the French girls who heard screams coming from the beach ? If this crime were committed in the guesthouse and the bodies transferred to the beach there would be no screams heard. Let me know your thoughts on this. Would love to get to the bottom of this crime, but sadly seems impossible.

Sorry, no idea about the French girls. My account was not about where the incident happened but more along the lines of who the gangster was and the role played by his accomplices.

[scorecard]

From the report quoted just above:

"...I believe that it would significantly undermine the Thai authorities’ relationship with UK law enforcement, if not the wider relationship between the two governments given the very high-profile nature of the case..."

IMHO this is extremely disturbing.

To me it means that justice for the accused is secondary or just not important.

Surely that's not acceptable.

Edited August 26, 2015 by scorecard

[Gweiloman]

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

I think it's safe to say, translators being warned off indicate witnesses would also be warned off. If you were a witness in this case and had evidence, who would you give it to? And, that's a big risk to take when what likely would happen is the cops would turn the witness away. But, hey, Crazythedragon is a reliable source to you.

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

who would they come forward too and who is going to protect them - the police ?

He's just being obtuse. Not sure whether it's intentional though

[PaPiPuPePo]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

The bar probably opens about 8 or 9, and wraps up about 3 to 4 am (even tho they're supposedly required to close at 2). That's 6 to 8 hours. Did the guy hang there for that entire time? .....and notice everyone who entered and left?

Exactly. He's so sure "Dodo" wasn't there. And he's very clear about the camera's and lights at the bar and how their absence is beneficial to "the family's" story, but completely vague/in the dark about other things that could work against them.

And, yes, no word from him afterward. He posted a few times about this case and then has said nothing else. He does have one earlier post on record about a visa situation so he may not be just a sock puppet (unless someone wanted to create a plausible b/g for a sock puppet and was too lazy to do more than one non-related post) but otherwise there's nothing bolstering his credibility.

JLC seems very convinced which to me says more about his closely-guarded stance on this case (well he tries to cloak his prejudices in sarcasm, obtuseness and so on but with enough reading his slant becomes clear as does his disinclination to reveal it) than it does about the veracity or value of crazythedragon's claim.

[grumpyoldman]

JLC

There are people who say directly it was NS and they can't be a witness. I cannot post it because it's in Thai but I'll be happy to PM it to you

There are plenty of people who know what happened, even some claimed eye witnesses but, they're scared as well. I wonder if that's because of the Burmese mafia on Tao....

As I said "... no one has ever come forward ...".

who would they come forward too and who is going to protect them - the police ?

Beats me -- I made a statement that no one has come forward. There may be plenty of people as above who have first hand information of the crimes of that night but they have not come forward to anybody. If you choose to disagree with that statement then fine.

Even from Italy or wherever, why can't this Sean guy step up and say what he knows? Doubt KT mafia reaches that far......

Also, is there no way to match the cuts on David's face/body with the stingray spine ring?

[atyclb]

Whats the sense in doing their investigation if it is pre-agreed it will not be disclosed. In other words the UK's business interests are more important than the lives of 2 very possibly innocent human beings. The non disclosure agreement null and voids access to information that may counter the thai narrative.

[StealthEnergiser]

[JLCrab]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

The bar probably opens about 8 or 9, and wraps up about 3 to 4 am (even tho they're supposedly required to close at 2). That's 6 to 8 hours. Did the guy hang there for that entire time? .....and notice everyone who entered and left?

Exactly. He's so sure "Dodo" wasn't there. And he's very clear about the camera's and lights at the bar and how their absence is beneficial to "the family's" story, but completely vague/in the dark about other things that could work against them.

And, yes, no word from him afterward. He posted a few times about this case and then has said nothing else. He does have one earlier post on record about a visa situation so he may not be just a sock puppet (unless someone wanted to create a plausible b/g for a sock puppet and was too lazy to do more than one non-related post) but otherwise there's nothing bolstering his credibility.

JLC seems very convinced which to me says more about his closely-guarded stance on this case (well he tries to cloak his prejudices in sarcasm, obtuseness and so on but with enough reading his slant becomes clear as does his disinclination to reveal it) than it does about the veracity or value of crazythedragon's claim.

The Dragon-guy says that during the time he was at the AC Bar on that date that he did not see the Kid with whom he was on a 'Hello' basis. Nobody else has publicly said that they saw him either or that any one saw any altercation that evening in the bar including friends of the deceased who are back home in the UK.

My stance is simple: I don't have any idea what happened that evening as to whom is responsible for the crimes on Koh Tao.

Edited August 26, 2015 by JLCrab

[StealthEnergiser]

[joebrown]

UK authorities have nothing to do with this case. They should never have been "invited" in the first place. If thai nationals where murdered in UK would the Thai authorities be welcome over there to have a squiz at the evidence

I doubt that Thai authorities would show any interest in such circumstances as it wouldn't affect the tourism situation in Thailand.

[Linky]

So you are saying that maybe he was really on a gambling junket to Macao that evening? He says he knows the kid on sight and did not see him that evening while he was there and did not notice any altercation while he was there.

The bar probably opens about 8 or 9, and wraps up about 3 to 4 am (even tho they're supposedly required to close at 2). That's 6 to 8 hours. Did the guy hang there for that entire time? .....and notice everyone who entered and left?

Exactly. He's so sure "Dodo" wasn't there. And he's very clear about the camera's and lights at the bar and how their absence is beneficial to "the family's" story, but completely vague/in the dark about other things that could work against them.

And, yes, no word from him afterward. He posted a few times about this case and then has said nothing else. He does have one earlier post on record about a visa situation so he may not be just a sock puppet (unless someone wanted to create a plausible b/g for a sock puppet and was too lazy to do more than one non-related post) but otherwise there's nothing bolstering his credibility.

JLC seems very convinced which to me says more about his closely-guarded stance on this case (well he tries to cloak his prejudices in sarcasm, obtuseness and so on but with enough reading his slant becomes clear as does his disinclination to reveal it) than it does about the veracity or value of crazythedragon's claim.

The Dragon-guy says that during the time he was at the AC Bar on that date that he did not see the Kid with whom he was on a 'Hello' basis. Nobody else has publicly said that they saw him either or that any one saw any altercation that evening in the bar including friends of the deceased who are back home in the UK.

My stance is simple: I don't have any idea what happened that evening as to whom is responsible for the crimes on Koh Tao.

As has been indicated yhere are very good reasons why no one has come forward (that we are aware of) and you understand those reasons are understandable, then what is the point in saying it?

It is a moot point. It means nothing.

[loonodingle]

If that is the case and the report contains nothing of benefit to the defendants, why do the prosecution (who presumably have seen it) not introduce it as evidence?

Surely the defence are also entitled to see reports and evidence which the prosecution have seen. Maybe not in Thailand.

This report was an internal police report compiled by the police on their return from Koh Tao. They will not share it with the Thai police. If any its critical of the Thai Police so it would be embarrassing if it was made public. It was written last year prior to the families statement published by the FCO. The uk lawyers and Reprieve argued that tbey should see it to see how the families came to make their statements on tbe back of the report. In essence they are claiming it was baseless as they had had limited access to evidence. No verification as promised etc etc. This has rolled on since then and the polices refusal has ended with a request to tbe court for its release.

Theres nothing in the report to assist the case. On the polices own admission they think it will hamper the reciprocal arrangements they have going forward with other police forces if defence teams can get copies of confidential files. On the basis it contains nothing of substance to assist the B2 then theres nothing lost.

they have argued under data protection laws for the disclosure. Unfortunately its not a valid reason and the evidencecontained within doesnt warrant an eexception.

If the police are critical of the RTP then it would have been very embarrassing. ...

[oldsailor35]

I've been saying since late December that Brit authorities are complicit in the cover-up. Late December was when the Brit Coroner changed her mind and nixed her prior promise to release the Coroner's report on January 6. When she cancelled, she said, "maybe October, I don't know."

They judge who made the recent decision to deny info to the defense is right to feel uneasy (as he says). He should feel as bad as a person should feel who is contributing to the skewed trial which may lead to a death sentence for two young poor men who are likely innocent. Shame on him and all others who are too cowed to stand up for what's right.

My confidence in British justice and its judges have just taken a massive nose dive.

[webfact]

KOH TAO MURDERS
Murder suspects can't have British police report - UK judge

London - Two Myanmar workers on trial in Thailand for the murder of two British tourists should not be given access to a confidential British police report about the case, a British judge ruled on Tuesday.

Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 22, risk the death penalty if found guilty of murdering Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, in September last year on a beach on Koh Tao, an island popular with backpackers and divers.

Post-mortem examinations showed both suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped.

The case is sensitive because of Thailand’s reliance ontourism, which makes up nearly 10 percent of the economy, andbecause of questions that have emerged over police tactics.

The two suspects initially confessed in police interviewsand were taken to the crime scene where they re-enacted the murders in front of the world’s media. They later retracted the confessions, alleging they had been tortured by Thai police.

The allegations caused disquiet in Britain. In a ruling handed down in London on Tuesday, High Court Judge Nicholas Green said the misgivings were such that Prime Minister David Cameron had discussed the case with his Thai counterpart Prayuth Chan-o-cha.

The two leaders agreed that Britain’s Metropolitan Policewould send a team to Thailand to conduct an independent inquiry. However, as it is British policy not to assist foreign policeforces in death penalty cases, the scope of the mission was to observe and record the Thai police investigation.

Thai police cooperated fully under the pre-agreed condition that the British team’s final report would be shared only with the Witheridge and Miller families.

But the two murder suspects, who have been on trial since early July, applied to the court to hand over the report, arguing that it might be of use to their defence case.

The Metropolitan Police opposed their application, arguing that disclosure would impede the force’s ability to enter into cooperation agreements with foreign authorities in future.

Having seen the full report, the judge ruled that the interests of the police outweighed those of the suspects.

"In short I have concluded that there is nothing in the police report which is exculpatory, i.e. would be of material assistance to the claimants in the trial," he said in a summary of his ruling.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Murder-suspects-cant-have-British-police-report--U-30267461.html


-- The Nation 2015-08-26

[Baerboxer]

You, and the people you are working with, seem to have spent a lot of effort and time on that sideshow.

Now it's not important, doesn't matter, right.

Incidentally, I wonder what would happen to someone in the UK if they accused a judge of being complicit in the cover-up of a murder?

Besides that, you are misrepresenting the contents of a 20 second statement from the police, they never said the evidence against the men on trial is weak, they said, and I quote "The Metropolitan Police says there's confusion and inconsistencies in the investigation in Thailand into the murder of two British tourists on the island of Koh Tao; Hannah Witheridge and David Miller were killed in September. Scotland Yard, which is observing the Thai enquiry, says there are questions about the strength of the case against the two men from Burma charged with murder."

That there are questions about the strength of the case doesn't mean that the answer to those questions is that the evidence is weak; it means that there's people, like you, that question it.

No, it means that the evidence provided to the court is weak. That is a proven fact.

They released that statement over six months before the beginning of the trial, the prosecution hasn't even finished presenting the evidence to the court as of now; so how could they had made a statement against something that haven't happened yet?

Geez...

because professional police observed how the Thai police were throwing together what we have now mostly seen and called it into question, there was little they could say in reality but if you are smart enough you can join up the dots, like I have said continually - there is nothing the Thai police have presented so far that would have made it past the front gate of a western court, it really is as simple as that, in fact it is so very obviously bad that smart people here on this forum can't figure out why you don't see it and keep defending this very obvious farce, you are either cognitively challenged - a troll - have divisive motives or a mix of all three

And we wondered why the local prosecutor kept throwing the file back to the police. This is, apparently, the "polished" version being presented in court. Gawd knows what the first iteration was like!

The Met Report would be interesting, but I doubt tell anything new. The RTP demonstrate their level of professional competence time and time again.

Sadly, whatever the verdict the truth will not out, the facts will not out, and not even all the RTP know will out. Just as in most major cases, justice and punishing those responsible isn't the goal.

[JLCrab]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

[webfact]

No British Police Report for Koh Tao Defense, UK Court Rules
By Khaosod English

LONDON — Two Myanmar workers on trial in Thailand for the murder of two British tourists should not be given access to a confidential British police report about the case, a British judge ruled on Tuesday.

Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 22, risk the death penalty if found guilty of murdering Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, in September last year on a beach on Koh Tao, an island popular with backpackers and divers.

Post-mortem examinations showed both suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped.

The case is sensitive because of Thailand's reliance on tourism, which makes up nearly 10 percent of the economy, and because of questions that have emerged over police tactics.

The two suspects initially confessed in police interviews and were taken to the crime scene where they re-enacted the murders in front of the world's media. They later retracted the confessions, alleging they had been tortured by Thai police.

The allegations caused disquiet in Britain. In a ruling handed down in London on Tuesday, High Court Judge Nicholas Green said the misgivings were such that Prime Minister David Cameron had discussed the case with his Thai counterpart Prayuth Chan-ocha.

Full story: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1440565902


-- Khaosod English 2015-08-26

[Baerboxer]

I've been saying since late December that Brit authorities are complicit in the cover-up. Late December was when the Brit Coroner changed her mind and nixed her prior promise to release the Coroner's report on January 6. When she cancelled, she said, "maybe October, I don't know."

They judge who made the recent decision to deny info to the defense is right to feel uneasy (as he says). He should feel as bad as a person should feel who is contributing to the skewed trial which may lead to a death sentence for two young poor men who are likely innocent. Shame on him and all others who are too cowed to stand up for what's right.

My confidence in British justice and its judges have just taken a massive nose dive.

The British police did not investigate the case, did not investigate other suspects, even those tried by social media, or question witnesses.

It is not their normal policy to do so and would require detailed agreement to do so. The report was on how the investigation had been conducted and based on only sharing with the families.

You've seen how the BiB operate on many cases, including recent ones. You can imagine what's in the full report. But, having made an agreement they won't break it.

No other nation has sent their police here to investigate the suspicious deaths or open murders of their citizens. It just doesn't work like that. You are, sadly in some cases, stuck with the police and judicial system of the country you're in. Rare exceptions but that takes agreement, invitations and can lead to conflict between the forces, e.g. Portuguese police didn't like being criticized by the Met for their initial handling of the McCann case.

The law does indeed work in strange ways - and non more so than here.

[Linky]

KOH TAO MURDERS

Murder suspects can't have British police report - UK judge

London - Two Myanmar workers on trial in Thailand for the murder of two British tourists should not be given access to a confidential British police report about the case, a British judge ruled on Tuesday.

Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 22, risk the death penalty if found guilty of murdering Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, in September last year on a beach on Koh Tao, an island popular with backpackers and divers.

Post-mortem examinations showed both suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped.

The case is sensitive because of Thailands reliance ontourism, which makes up nearly 10 percent of the economy, andbecause of questions that have emerged over police tactics.

The two suspects initially confessed in police interviewsand were taken to the crime scene where they re-enacted the murders in front of the worlds media. They later retracted the confessions, alleging they had been tortured by Thai police.

The allegations caused disquiet in Britain. In a ruling handed down in London on Tuesday, High Court Judge Nicholas Green said the misgivings were such that Prime Minister David Cameron had discussed the case with his Thai counterpart Prayuth Chan-o-cha.

The two leaders agreed that Britains Metropolitan Policewould send a team to Thailand to conduct an independent inquiry. However, as it is British policy not to assist foreign policeforces in death penalty cases, the scope of the mission was to observe and record the Thai police investigation.

Thai police cooperated fully under the pre-agreed condition that the British teams final report would be shared only with the Witheridge and Miller families.

But the two murder suspects, who have been on trial since early July, applied to the court to hand over the report, arguing that it might be of use to their defence case.

The Metropolitan Police opposed their application, arguing that disclosure would impede the forces ability to enter into cooperation agreements with foreign authorities in future.

Having seen the full report, the judge ruled that the interests of the police outweighed those of the suspects.

"In short I have concluded that there is nothing in the police report which is exculpatory, i.e. would be of material assistance to the claimants in the trial," he said in a summary of his ruling.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Murder-suspects-cant-have-British-police-report--U-30267461.html

-- The Nation 2015-08-26

Ok let me try to understand this.

The met wont release the file because it may impede the force's ability to enter into cooperation agreements in future.

Pray tell, what is the use of ANY cooperation if the police are not allowed to divulge the evidence?

If the Met had found that there is evidence to exonerate the defendants and dont divulge it and they are put to death then their blood is on UK hands.

The refusal to provide the report can also be viewed as assisting the Thai police in such circumstances.

So just what is this cooperation the Met want so dearly? So that can can forever go on a jaunt knowing they dont have to look a thing because it is confidential?

I would rather the UK actually stood up for their citizens instead and showed some balls.

The family said there is good evidence in what they saw. After what we have heard from the court I bet they are wishing they kept their mouth shut. They must be embarrassed by the difference in what was in the report and what reality has shown.

Thats what happens when you only get one side of the story.

[Linky]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

No, it is still a moot point because people may have come forward but police have not and will not use their evidence nor do they find it necessary to give to defence.

Or, people have come forward to the defense and they are yet to present their case.

So it is still a moot point, it means absolutely nothing when you say no one has come forward, either for or against the defendants.

To put it bluntly, you are speculating.

[fritzzz25]

KOH TAO MURDERS

Murder suspects can't have British police report - UK judge

London - Two Myanmar workers on trial in Thailand for the murder of two British tourists should not be given access to a confidential British police report about the case, a British judge ruled on Tuesday.

Wai Phyo and Zaw Lin, both 22, risk the death penalty if found guilty of murdering Hannah Witheridge, 23, and David Miller, 24, in September last year on a beach on Koh Tao, an island popular with backpackers and divers.

Post-mortem examinations showed both suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped.

The case is sensitive because of Thailands reliance ontourism, which makes up nearly 10 percent of the economy, andbecause of questions that have emerged over police tactics.

The two suspects initially confessed in police interviewsand were taken to the crime scene where they re-enacted the murders in front of the worlds media. They later retracted the confessions, alleging they had been tortured by Thai police.

The allegations caused disquiet in Britain. In a ruling handed down in London on Tuesday, High Court Judge Nicholas Green said the misgivings were such that Prime Minister David Cameron had discussed the case with his Thai counterpart Prayuth Chan-o-cha.

The two leaders agreed that Britains Metropolitan Policewould send a team to Thailand to conduct an independent inquiry. However, as it is British policy not to assist foreign policeforces in death penalty cases, the scope of the mission was to observe and record the Thai police investigation.

Thai police cooperated fully under the pre-agreed condition that the British teams final report would be shared only with the Witheridge and Miller families.

But the two murder suspects, who have been on trial since early July, applied to the court to hand over the report, arguing that it might be of use to their defence case.

The Metropolitan Police opposed their application, arguing that disclosure would impede the forces ability to enter into cooperation agreements with foreign authorities in future.

Having seen the full report, the judge ruled that the interests of the police outweighed those of the suspects.

"In short I have concluded that there is nothing in the police report which is exculpatory, i.e. would be of material assistance to the claimants in the trial," he said in a summary of his ruling.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Murder-suspects-cant-have-British-police-report--U-30267461.html

-- The Nation 2015-08-26

Ok let me try to understand this.

The met wont release the file because it may impede the force's ability to enter into cooperation agreements in future.

Pray tell, what is the use of ANY cooperation if the police are not allowed to divulge the evidence?

If the Met had found that there is evidence to exonerate the defendants and dont divulge it and they are put to death then their blood is on UK hands.

The refusal to provide the report can also be viewed as assisting the Thai police in such circumstances.

So just what is this cooperation the Met want so dearly? So that can can forever go on a jaunt knowing they dont have to look a thing because it is confidential?

I would rather the UK actually stood up for their citizens instead and showed some balls.

The family said there is good evidence in what they saw. After what we have heard from the court I bet they are wishing they kept their mouth shut. They must be embarrassed by the difference in what was in the report and what reality has shown.

Thats what happens when you only get one side of the story.

It is a clear case of C.Y.A.

One way or another, the report will get leaked.... eventually. Will it be too late to be used in this trial? Likely. But someone will get the info out there. Someone will "Snowden".....

[Darkknight666]

Whats the sense in doing their investigation if it is pre-agreed it will not be disclosed. In other words the UK's business interests are more important than the lives of 2 very possibly innocent human beings. The non disclosure agreement null and voids access to information that may counter the thai narrative.

It's more about keeping law enforcement channels with Thailand open... If the Brits contradict the cops and make them lose massive face, RTP could refuse to apprehend Brit fugitives.... I'm sure that's part of it anyways.

[clockman]

How Britain, has fallen. Lick spittles. To the third world

[fritzzz25]

Here is your answer right here: https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/hq_15X0311_final.pdf (Paragraph 14)

In paragraphs 18 and 19 of her statement Assistant Commissioner Dick states:
“18. It would be a significant and I believe a damaging step to provide the Report or parts of it to the suspects to use in their defence when we were not willing to give it to the Thai authorities"

If you read between the lines, they probably have pointed out all of the screw ups, and do not wish to burn any bridges.

[JLCrab]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

No, it is still a moot point because people may have come forward but police have not and will not use their evidence nor do they find it necessary to give to defence.

Or, people have come forward to the defense and they are yet to present their case.

So it is still a moot point, it means absolutely nothing when you say no one has come forward, either for or against the defendants.

To put it bluntly, you are speculating.

No onwehas publicly come forward for the nth time.

[loonodingle]

Someone told me yesterday they think Hannahs family are not attending any more court hearings and have washed their hands of the trial. ....

I cant guarantee thats going to happen , but she is normally right...