Koh Tao murder trial reconvenes in Koh Samui

[Linky]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

No, it is still a moot point because people may have come forward but police have not and will not use their evidence nor do they find it necessary to give to defence.

Or, people have come forward to the defense and they are yet to present their case.

So it is still a moot point, it means absolutely nothing when you say no one has come forward, either for or against the defendants.

To put it bluntly, you are speculating.

No onwehas publicly come forward for the nth time.

So what? Thats a moot point, meaningless.

[Linky]

Someone told me yesterday they think Hannahs family are not attending any more court hearings and have washed their hands of the trial. ....

I cant guarantee thats going to happen , but she is normally right...

Hmm, if that is true it speaks volumes and I hope they give the UK authorities a lot of grief.

[Darkknight666]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

No, it is still a moot point because people may have come forward but police have not and will not use their evidence nor do they find it necessary to give to defence.

Or, people have come forward to the defense and they are yet to present their case.

So it is still a moot point, it means absolutely nothing when you say no one has come forward, either for or against the defendants.

To put it bluntly, you are speculating.

No onwehas publicly come forward for the nth time.

Nobody has come forward because there is next to zero police protection for witnesses and you don't know which cops you can trust and which you can't. If I were a witness I'd get ahold of Panya and ask him who I could tell my story to. If it's an eye witness, they've seen what the killers are capable of and are also aware of the lack of witness protection in Thailand.

For the ninth time....

Edited August 26, 2015 by Darkknight666

[JLCrab]

It would only be a moot point if there were not a trial ongoing at the present time.

No, it is still a moot point because people may have come forward but police have not and will not use their evidence nor do they find it necessary to give to defence.

Or, people have come forward to the defense and they are yet to present their case.

So it is still a moot point, it means absolutely nothing when you say no one has come forward, either for or against the defendants.

To put it bluntly, you are speculating.

No onwehas publicly come forward for the nth time.

So what? Thats a moot point, meaningless.

Thank you. I'll just dwell for now in my meaninglessness while you go on and post meaningfully moot or otherwise. When I can read abut something on Reuters it is public; if it may have happened but no one in the public knows about it then it isn't public. Meaningfully.

[Alwyn]

I don't understand this.. The defence ask to be given access to certain information and then the judge says no, it's nothing of interest. If it's nothing of interest and cannot harm the prosection's case then why not give it to the defence? Surely if the information the defence are so eager to get is nothing special this would only strengthen the prosection's case? On the other hand, it is now easy to assume (rightly or wrongly) that the information is damning to the prosection's case. These guys were never going to walk free whatever the facts are.

[StealthEnergiser]

Someone told me yesterday they think Hannahs family are not attending any more court hearings and have washed their hands of the trial. ....

I cant guarantee thats going to happen , but she is normally right...

Hmm, if that is true it speaks volumes and I hope they give the UK authorities a lot of grief.

I cannot imagine how much grief and hurt the familys of Hannah and David are going through for them to sit their and look at horrible photo's of their children and they most likely know by now this case is a stitch up , they are being hurt more by watching other innocent families suffer due to a disgraceful investigation and reporting by the thai police.

Heads should roll once these b2 are proven innocent and the families should be also very disappointed with the met if they have been given wrong information.

The truth will come out the families need it they are decent people and have much better morales than people involved in the cover up.

[fritzzz25]

pp. 44 First, the MPS is adamant that it will not disclose the Disputed Information to the Claimants or their legal advisers on a voluntary basis (even subject to a confidentiality ring) and I cannot compel them to do so.

https://www.judiciary.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/hq_15X0311_final.pdf

Again, the MPS does NOT want this report out. No doubt it has been

(a) "massaged" to contain as few facts as necessary in order to keep their report from being called as evidence or

( it is so blatantly critical of the RTP investigation, that it would ruin any working partnership between the two organizations.

[cumgranosalum]

I think then UK police report is given far too much importance - we're talking about a coupe of bemused police being lead round in circles in a languge they aren't familiar with and procedures that don't exist.

If a British lawyer had been given similar access then the story might have been different.

Anyhow the two dear leaders made an agreement the info was for the families only......so politics are deeply involved here.....and lord knows what the families have been told to keep them happy.......... it must look to those 2 Burmese guys that the whole world is against them and that their collective minds are made up already

[rudy h]

This case simply makes no sense at all to me.

The theory is David and Hanna were on the beach in the wee hours of the morning exhibiting behavior that not only sexually aroused these two maniacs but it drive both of them into such a rage they felt it was justified in the moment of heat not only to rape and murder, but then took it a huge step further by disfiguring the two victims?

I saw the horrific photos, it was a murder with an exclamation point. There has to be intent and motive for such a raging brutal double murder. For the accused to be so pissed off to feel they were compelled to commit this act in such fashion makes no sense whatsoever.

The current theory is so very weak.

What ever happened to Sean Mcanna?

[Sooo Upto Me]

Please all, stop the baiting. Stop the responding to someone whose point of view you disagree with.

There are both important news and important

updates that deserve to be aired. This is the one .forum I'm aware of that allows that discussion,

within the parameters of Forum rules. Respect them, or go somewhere else.

For the sake of the poor victims, their families, and the defendants so that justice, can be seen to be served as clearly and cleanly as possible in Thailand.

Totally agree. There's too much school kid bickering going on with this topic.

Having the thread closed again is a disservice to all.

[stephenterry]

If that is the case and the report contains nothing of benefit to the defendants, why do the prosecution (who presumably have seen it) not introduce it as evidence?

Surely the defence are also entitled to see reports and evidence which the prosecution have seen. Maybe not in Thailand.

This report was an internal police report compiled by the police on their return from Koh Tao. They will not share it with the Thai police. If any its critical of the Thai Police so it would be embarrassing if it was made public. It was written last year prior to the families statement published by the FCO. The uk lawyers and Reprieve argued that tbey should see it to see how the families came to make their statements on tbe back of the report. In essence they are claiming it was baseless as they had had limited access to evidence. No verification as promised etc etc. This has rolled on since then and the polices refusal has ended with a request to tbe court for its release.

Theres nothing in the report to assist the case. On the polices own admission they think it will hamper the reciprocal arrangements they have going forward with other police forces if defence teams can get copies of confidential files. On the basis it contains nothing of substance to assist the B2 then theres nothing lost.

they have argued under data protection laws for the disclosure. Unfortunately its not a valid reason and the evidencecontained within doesnt warrant an eexception.

If the police are critical of the RTP then it would have been very embarrassing. ...

Relevant personal snippets from the report:

124. Observations on the personal data: With these general considerations in mind I would make the following observations about the items of personal data in the Report:

a) The references are frequently brief, descriptive, and broad brush.

There are some exceptions to this where personal data is compiled in tabular form. But even here it is not much more than a series of terse statements in abbreviated form e.g. a summary of the main points in the chronology leading up to a suspect’s arrest. In such cases whether the items are viewed in isolation or as part of a wider picture (the table as a whole) it is all information that the accused will already be aware of.

c) A good deal of the personal data relates to the observations of the MPS on documents or video recordings that they were permitted to read and review. As such since (as I understand matters) the accused will have had access during the trial to the same material then the references in the Report would, at this stage, add nothing to the sum of knowledge held by the defence team on these matters.

d) To the extent that the personal data refers to such matters as whether the accused had access to legal representation during interviews and/or translators these are matters within the knowledge of the accused and their lawyers in Thailand even if, as is said in the evidence before me in this case, there is a dispute about such matters.

e) The personal data is not, as I have already observed, analytical and does not perform an evaluation of the prosecution evidence or case.

f) I have not identified any material exculpatory personal data in the Report.

[scorecard]

From the report quoted just above:

"...I believe that it would significantly undermine the Thai authorities’ relationship with UK law enforcement, if not the wider relationship between the two governments given the very high-profile nature of the case..."

IMHO this is extremely disturbing.

To me it means that justice for the accused is secondary or just not important.

Surely that's not acceptable.

I wonder what response there would be if it was a British citizen who was accused?

If the British police did come and 'investigate' (whatever that means) would they deny their own citizen / the lawyers to see their report?

I just hope someone challenges this matter.

In regard to the 2 Burmese men, the Brits denying access could be construed that there is criticism of the way The Thai police have handled the case.

If that's true then in the quest for a fair trial for the accused then surely it should be revealed.

Edited August 26, 2015 by scorecard

[loonodingle]

Dont put to much weight to this report.

The MPS has already stated they where not allowed any verification of evidence. And only had limited access.

[BritTim]

The rationale seems wrong. Who decides whether something is of value to the defense?

I am also disappointed by the ruling, but the judge was in a difficult position. He needed to balance the possibility that the report could be of value to the defense against the certainty that organizations around the world would be less likely to cooperate with UK authorities because they cannot be trusted to honour confidentiality agreements. The judge states (and perhaps I an naive but I believe him) that there was nothing essential to the defense in the report. If that is true, he probably made the right call.

[BigC]

What ever happens happens nothing shall justify what the parents of these 2 victims have gone through

As for the 2 accused I wish the case would close and stop high lighting the media attention so the families can try to let there loved ones rest in peace

For anyone who reckons you can get justice out here you need a reality check

Anyone can find themselves in a world of trouble no one is immune even ex PMs

Just be careful

[stephenterry]

Dont put to much weight to this report.

The MPS has already stated they where not allowed any verification of evidence. And only had limited access.

There are no bombshells being undisclosed. It is probably the tamest report I've seen. Clearly, the MPS only came to Thailand because of the diplomacy request by the British PM. An agreement of non-disclosure, in diplomatic speak, has to be observed, IMO - although the judge did quite well in revealing aspects which turned out to be mundane and not of any more help to the defence's case.

What is more to the point, he did offer an Appeal on the ruling, but it was turned down by Claimants for the defence. Clearly a non-event.

Storm in a tea-cup, I'd describe it.

[zaphod reborn]

There's nothing to be seen, move along.

The report wouldn't contain anything the defense lawyers don't already know. Basically, the report probably rips to shreds the investigative techniques used in the case. However, it doesn't come to a different conclusion about the likely guilt of the two who are on trial. It doesn't point the finger elsewhere. It just summarizes and critiques the police investigation. That's all Scotland Yard had access to, was a review of what the Thai police had already done.

Because it doesn't assist the defense, by exculpating the 2 Burmese defendants, and, in deference to the international obligation to keep the report confidential, the judge correctly ruled on its disclosure.

The case against the defendants is going to cave on its own, it's just a matter of time now. But the schedule of proceedings is very tedious, with huge gaps of time between evidence-taking sessions.

[balo]

there may be a lot of evidence coming from the UK, I suspect that some of Davids and Hannahs friends will have since been interviewed and made statements about certain things that went on that night/morning throwing some light on what happened in AC bar and whether David and Hannah were connected in some way or not.

Lets not forget the last place both were seen alive was AC bar, any professional investigation would have and should have started there and yet we hear no mention of it by police or prosecution when presenting their case, that is a massive black hole right there,

Friends may have already told Thai police during interviews and made statements that have generally been ignored because they didn't fit with the agenda

How many foreigners were in AC Bar that night ? And close to the beach ? Why have we not heard from them , ok maybe they are busy with their own lifes and couldnt care less, like Sean McAnna , but with so many possible witnesses I find it strange that they do not speak out.

I mean if they are safe in their home countries they got nothing to lose. They could give us some more information , what they saw that night. Unless all of them were working illegally on the island or using drugs, and do not want any unwanted attention from the media.

[scorecard]

"Basically, the report probably rips to shreds the investigative techniques used in the case. However, it doesn't come to a different conclusion about the likely guilt of the two who are on trial."

Well if that's all true, then surely it does have an effect on the 'reasonable doubt' aspect of how the judges make a decision, and remembering that a guilty verdict could well bring some very severe long-term punishment.

[jdinasia]

The judge in the UK put many claims made by members of TVF to rest.

Nothing exculpatory.

The BP article offers the best understanding so far, of why the UK police were only observers.

[cumgranosalum]

This case simply makes no sense at all to me.

The theory is David and Hanna were on the beach in the wee hours of the morning exhibiting behavior that not only sexually aroused these two maniacs but it drive both of them into such a rage they felt it was justified in the moment of heat not only to rape and murder, but then took it a huge step further by disfiguring the two victims?

I saw the horrific photos, it was a murder with an exclamation point. There has to be intent and motive for such a raging brutal double murder. For the accused to be so pissed off to feel they were compelled to commit this act in such fashion makes no sense whatsoever.

The current theory is so very weak.

What ever happened to Sean Mcanna?

So what? completely irrelevant

[Lorn]

"Basically, the report probably rips to shreds the investigative techniques used in the case. However, it doesn't come to a different conclusion about the likely guilt of the two who are on trial."

Well if that's all true, then surely it does have an effect on the 'reasonable doubt' aspect of how the judges make a decision, and remembering that a guilty verdict could well bring some very severe long-term punishment.

If the Brits had the same evidence in front of them as the judges do, why would the judge need to be told that the brits doubt the evidence? Surely the judges can make up their own mind? I know people want to be incensed by the injustice of the whole charade but some of the moaning is over the top.

[Lorn]

there may be a lot of evidence coming from the UK, I suspect that some of Davids and Hannahs friends will have since been interviewed and made statements about certain things that went on that night/morning throwing some light on what happened in AC bar and whether David and Hannah were connected in some way or not.

Lets not forget the last place both were seen alive was AC bar, any professional investigation would have and should have started there and yet we hear no mention of it by police or prosecution when presenting their case, that is a massive black hole right there,

Friends may have already told Thai police during interviews and made statements that have generally been ignored because they didn't fit with the agenda

How many foreigners were in AC Bar that night ? And close to the beach ? Why have we not heard from them , ok maybe they are busy with their own lifes and couldnt care less, like Sean McAnna , but with so many possible witnesses I find it strange that they do not speak out.

I mean if they are safe in their home countries they got nothing to lose. They could give us some more information , what they saw that night. Unless all of them were working illegally on the island or using drugs, and do not want any unwanted attention from the media.

If you were a witness what would you do, go to the tabloids or call a press conference? Hopefully you wouldn't but would instead have contacted either the police or the defense depending on who you trusted or whose side your evidence benefited. It wouldn't/shouldn't become public knowledge. If someone came forward with pertinent testimony, it will be revealed when it is the defenses turn to plead their case.

[PaPiPuPePo]

This case simply makes no sense at all to me.

The theory is David and Hanna were on the beach in the wee hours of the morning exhibiting behavior that not only sexually aroused these two maniacs but it drive both of them into such a rage they felt it was justified in the moment of heat not only to rape and murder, but then took it a huge step further by disfiguring the two victims?

I saw the horrific photos, it was a murder with an exclamation point. There has to be intent and motive for such a raging brutal double murder. For the accused to be so pissed off to feel they were compelled to commit this act in such fashion makes no sense whatsoever.

The current theory is so very weak.

This point has been made numerous times, including by myself, but needs to be reiterated endlessly IMO. So rather than just click like, I re-post rudy's comments.

[oldsailor35]

Reminds me of the British Ambassador, shouting around what " a great job" the Thai Police were doing.

We should have sat up and taken notice then ! But now that the British Government, Police, Courts and its Judges have all caved in , loosing all respect for the once great British sense of justice. Anything can happen at any time. Shame on the courts for allowing themselves to be manipulated in such a way.

[JLCrab]

The judge in the UK put many claims made by members of TVF to rest.

Nothing exculpatory.

The BP article offers the best understanding so far, of why the UK police were only observers.

That is actually a Reuters dispatch which is posted here:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUKKCN0QU1YA20150825

[BritTim]

Nobody has come forward because there is next to zero police protection for witnesses and you don't know which cops you can trust and which you can't. If I were a witness I'd get ahold of Panya and ask him who I could tell my story to. If it's an eye witness, they've seen what the killers are capable of and are also aware of the lack of witness protection in Thailand.

For the ninth time....

If I were a witness I'd get ahold of Panya and ask him who I could tell my story to. If it's an eye witness

Bad move. Look up some references from 23-25 September 2014 (5-6 days before Panya's promotion) where he personally backs Mon and Nomsod's innocence. Many have consistently cited Panya's promotion as evidence of interference from above in the investigation. While I do not believe that to be true, if it is, the most likely explanation is that Panya was bribed with the promotion into clearing Mon and Nomsod.

For a local without family who wished to be a witness (and had evidence) the solution would be to contact the defense team directly, planning to close his business (if any) and move to a different part of Thailand. A local with family should put the safety of his children first and keep quiet.

[jdinasia]

The judge in the UK put many claims made by members of TVF to rest.

Nothing exculpatory.

The BP article offers the best understanding so far, of why the UK police were only observers.

That is actually a Reuters dispatch which is posted here:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/article/idUKKCN0QU1YA20150825

I had just read it on the BP site before I posted

[sambum]

The parents of the victims have seen the reports yet haven't come out in support of the defendants.

Once again someone has to be told that:-

The reports contain only what the RTP and the prosecution want them to contain!

[jdinasia]

The parents of the victims have seen the reports yet haven't come out in support of the defendants.

Once again someone has to be told that:-

The reports contain only what the RTP and the prosecution want them to contain!

The parents of the victims have made statements. The conspiracy theorists don't like it.