thats some slide,great moves by the rider to grab his girl.

[taninthai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=61&v=meaQucgQl2U

[macknife]

I know it was very wet but still hard to understand why they went down.

[CarolJadzia]

The rider contributed to coming off by his actions. First off riding too fast for the conditions. That much water on the road reduces available grip. Going into a bend you have to lean, the faster you are going the more you have to lean.

But there is another contributing factor you can see in the video. The road switches from a rain water run off to the left to a cambered right hand bend. So there is a flow of water crossing the road, you can see it in the video just before he comes off. If the rider had been going a bit slower and kept left then he would not have come off.

No Surprise / No Accident

[NeverSure]

^^^ You don't have to lean when cornering. Only the bike has to lean. He hit a strong stream of water crossing the road and it grabbed his front wheel.

[CarolJadzia]

^^^ You don't have to lean when cornering. Only the bike has to lean. He hit a strong stream of water crossing the road and it grabbed his front wheel.

Yes and it was also not the rider who lost traction with the road, it was the tyres. You argument does not make sense.

How much do you want to get into motorcycle physics? This is some of my friends playing.

Water does not grab wheels. Water can build up under a tyre and cause it to aquaplane. Why exactly do you think he made a grab for the brake?

There is no suggestion of that, just the rear wheel spinning out which you can hear from the revs.

[NeverSure]

^^^ Look at your vid again very carefully. Your "friends" bikes are leaning first, and then pulling your "friends" along. Mostly your "friends" are being jerked and appear to be leaning the opposite way at first until the bike pulls them along. They are countersteering the bike to get it to turn. The bike turns and leans and only then are your "friends" forced to follow. The bike is doing all of the turning work for your "friends".

That's how experts ride so I assume your "friends" are experts even though you don't see their technique yet. Your "friends" should teach you to ride.

The crashing bike didn't hydroplane until it was too late. It takes a bit of distance before that happens. At the very beginning the front tire dug into the water and that jerked the tire out of the rider's control. Look again. The front wheel is quickly jerked out of line. If it had hydroplaned it might have just slide/drifted sideways but it didn't. It was jerked.

Now, I'm a certified motorcycle instructor in the US and I've also done a lot of racing. We teach people how to countersteer and that only newbs with a death wish try to turn by leaning. All of the riders in the vids above are countersteering and the bikes turn and lean first before the rider catches up with the bike.

Thanks for the nice vid which proves my point, BTW.

Cheers.

PS The reason I get upset is because wrong information about something like cornering a bike can get people killed. Many fatal accidents have happened on corners because people tried to turn a motorcycle by leaning.

Cheers.

[CarolJadzia]

^^^ You don't have to lean when cornering. Only the bike has to lean. He hit a strong stream of water crossing the road and it grabbed his front wheel.

^^^ Look at your vid again very carefully. Your "friends" bikes are leaning first, and then pulling your "friends" along. Mostly your "friends" are being jerked and appear to be leaning the opposite way at first until the bike pulls them along. They are countersteering the bike to get it to turn. The bike turns and leans and only then are your "friends" forced to follow. The bike is doing all of the turning work for your "friends".

That's how experts ride so I assume your "friends" are experts even though you don't see their technique yet. Your "friends" should teach you to ride.

The crashing bike didn't hydroplane until it was too late. It takes a bit of distance before that happens. At the very beginning the front tire dug into the water and that jerked the tire out of the rider's control. Look again. The front wheel is quickly jerked out of line. If it had hydroplaned it might have just slide/drifted sideways but it didn't. It was jerked.

Now, I'm a certified motorcycle instructor in the US and I've also done a lot of racing. We teach people how to countersteer and that only newbs with a death wish try to turn by leaning. All of the riders in the vids above are countersteering and the bikes turn and lean first before the rider catches up with the bike.

Thanks for the nice vid which proves my point, BTW.

Cheers.

PS The reason I get upset is because wrong information about something like cornering a bike can get people killed. Many fatal accidents have happened on corners because people tried to turn a motorcycle by leaning.

Cheers.

Ahh yes. American Instructors! That explains so much. Cheers.

I am a British Instructor so I understand the score very well thank you. I have been Driving Standards Agency approved Test Standard Instructor Trainer for over fifteen years.

I have been a senior Instructor Trainer and chief Instructor for over thirty years. I have trained thousands of novices right through to teaching advanced riding skills to senior road traffic Police officers.

Do you want to compare standards? Lets see, WHO world Road Traffic Accident Statistics, theres a place to start.

Deaths per 100000 occupants. 38.1 for Thailand, 3.7 for the UK 11.4 for the U.S.A. Can you explain why they are so high?

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2013/data/table_a2.pdf?ua=1

Then can you please explain the concept of why standard USA advice is to pull the clutch in on Emergency stops?

I have studied the American system in great depth trying to work out why standards are so poor there.

You have even been considered to be worse than the Thais at hazard avoidance skills.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Ouellet-Rider_Training_and_Evasive_Action_in_Thailand_and_LA-Paper.pdf

Have you heard of Roadcraft or 'No Surprise / No Accident' ?

Edited September 16, 2015 by CarolJadzia

[CarolJadzia]

Here is a resent post from a 'No Surprise' collegue and British Motorcycle Instructor on this very same topic:

"So what is it, how do you recognise it's happening and what do you do about it?

Normally on a wet surface, your tyres attempt to displace water to the sides, allowing the rubber to stay in contact with the road surface. When the water is sufficiently deep or your speed sufficiently high, the water cannot get out of the way fast enough and builds up as a wave just in front of the tyre. The tyre rides up and 'floats' on the wave, losing contact with the road surface in the process, and as a consequence you have no grip from the tyre. It's near enough the same principle that the Seacats across the Channel and the Irish Sea work on. The is aquaplaning and it normally affects just the front wheel, as the rear follows in the trough cut by the front tyre.

Fortunately for bikers, it's actually pretty rare because even a wide sportsbike tyre is U or V-shaped with a relatively long, thin contact patch that cuts through the water like a ship's bow. By contrast it's actually much more likely to happen when you are driving a car because from the front the car tyre presents a flat, broad profile with a short wide contact patch rather more like a barrel.

I've aquaplaned regularly on four wheels, but on the bike it's happened to me just twice in 25 years, once near Bastogne in Belgium, where a fast wide road climbs into the Ardennes, and once rather closer to home in West Kingsdown, just up the road from Brands Hatch, where the road is wide and flat.

In both cases on the bike, it happened when I ran into sheets of standing water. What seems to happen is that when the road surface is awash with standing water over a considerable distance ahead you are now at prime risk of the front tyre rides up on that bow wave. The key point seems to be that the water is shallow enough that you wouldn't normally think twice about riding through it at speed so you tend not to slow down and it's the speed that lifts the tyre. Although hitting a deep puddle can be a nasty shock, it's not deep water that causes aquaplaning.

How do you recognise aquaplaning? When it has happened to me, the bike carried on in a straight line with no sensation of wheelspin but the bars went light and floaty, moving gently from side to side. It's a bit like riding on ice, but with one important difference - the rear wheel usually continues to drive - on ice, the first warning is often wheelspin.

Because aquaplaning is so rare on two wheels, it'll probably be a complete surprise when it does happen which is why doing a bit of thinking ahead helps. Look out for places where you might find shallow sheets of water after a thunderstorm or prolonged heavy rain.

Wide, flat carriageways are high risk areas because the camber is shallow or nonexistent and because you are likely to hit the water at considerable speed. Whereas most roads have a crown camber that drains water to either side, the surface across motorway and dual carriageways is often usually nearly flat, which can lead to large areas of shallow standing water.

Rather bizarrely, my first experience of aquaplaning was on a hill, where you'd expect the water to drain away. The road surface was superelevated. That means the entire road slopes to one side so the road is banked a bit like the stands at a football ground. This eliminates the problem of adverse camber, but where water is running onto the road rather then forming a big puddle at the side of the road, it will flow down the slope from the higher side to the lower side, spreading out in a sheet. It's not uncommon to watch the flow go from side to side across the road several times as the road changes direction.

Because aquaplaning happens on fast roads, there's often a lot of spray around and you may well not see the problem until the last second. So try to keep a good gap, and don't go excessively quickly, and stay out of the grooves where lorries have caused the surface to sag and fill with long troughs of standing water. It's best to ride in the centre of the lane, and on a multilane road where you need to go with the flow, consider using a lane to the right for preference - it may break our 'keep left' rule but safety is more important.

So what do you do if you see standing water? Slow down. If you see it too late to reduce speed, try to relax your arms whilst gripping the tank with your knees and do nothing harsh or sudden - hanging on to the bars for dear life or locking your elbows always make things worse.

If the bike does aquaplane, just roll gently off the power. As the bike slows, the weight will transfer to the front and cut back down through the water restoring traction. But DON'T touch the front brake or it could lock - remember, there's no grip between the rubber and the road. You might be able to apply the rear but again, do it gently. Don't try to steer - you won't be able to.

Let the bike do its own thing and in a second or two, you should be out the other side."

https://www.facebook.com/SurvivalSkills/posts/998091833556736:0

[papa al]

Yes and it was also not the rider who lost traction with the road, it was the tyres. You argument does not make .

No Carol.

If you look carefully you will see the rider also lost traction.

He was sliding down the road wasn't he?

I always love reading your silliness.

More please.

[canuckamuck]

The corner was not much of a factor. It is obvious the stream of water they crossed caused a wobble and they failed to recover. Hard to recover if your passenger is leaning out of sync with you. It happens.

The corner was very slight.

[NeverSure]

Ahh yes. American Instructors! That explains so much. Cheers.

I am a British Instructor so I understand the score very well thank you. I have been Driving Standards Agency approved Test Standard Instructor Trainer for over fifteen years.

Do you want to compare standards? Lets see, WHO world Road Traffic Accident Statistics, theres a place to start.

Deaths per 100000 occupants. 38.1 for Thailand, 3.7 for the UK 11.4 for the U.S.A. Can you explain why they are so high?

http://www.who.int/violence_injury_prevention/road_safety_status/2013/data/table_a2.pdf?ua=1

Then can you please explain the concept of why standard USA advice is to pull the clutch in on Emergency stops?

I have studied the American system in great depth trying to work out why standards are so poor there.

You have even been considered to be worse than the Thais at hazard avoidance skills.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/imsc2006/Ouellet-Rider_Training_and_Evasive_Action_in_Thailand_and_LA-Paper.pdf

Have you heard of Roadcraft or 'No Surprise / No Accident' ?

"Ahh yes. American Instructors! That explains so much. Cheers."

Ah yes, always shoot the messenger when you've lost the debate.

"I am a British Instructor..."

With your lack of knowledge I simply don't believe you. You tell people to lean to corner. Leaning causes the bike to go in the opposite direction you lean!!! Countersteering - steering in the direction opposite of the way you want to go will point the bike where you want to go and throw your body the other way.

"I have studied the American system in great depth trying to work out why standards are so poor there."

The US has roads you never dreamed of and couldn't ride if your life depended on it. Keep up with this - just a little hill in Southern Oregon - Hwy 66 to the top of the Cascades.

[DipStick]

Accidents and mistakes happen, but what stood out for me in the clip was the bikers were dressed sensibly. Could you imagine if those riders were of the flip flop and shorts Brigade ......... Ouch !

[wantan]

Whatever, obviously he was too fast.

[maykilceksin]

^^^ You don't have to lean when cornering. Only the bike has to lean. He hit a strong stream of water crossing the road and it grabbed his front wheel.

so better dont ride a bike if you dont lean while cornering. Were you training harley guys only? they dont lean much that is why i asked:)

your body needs to lean according to your speed and according to the corner! of course you can turn a corner even without leaning at 20 kph but it will be a dangerous and slow turn.

plus you lean out when doing low speed turning.

that guy most probably hit the front brake and lost the front or maybe lost the traction of the rear wheel. No way a bike weights 400 kg with rider and pillion goes down just because it is passing from some water.

bikes are less prone to aquaplaning because of smaller contact patch and pointier profile of motorcycle tires.

Edited September 17, 2015 by maykilceksin

[NeverSure]

so better dont ride a bike if you dont lean while cornering. Were you training harley guys only? they dont lean much that is why i asked:)

your body needs to lean according to your speed and according to the corner! of course you can turn a corner even without leaning at 20 kph but it will be a dangerous and slow turn.

plus you lean out when doing low speed turning.

You don't have to lean to turn a bike. The bike has to lean, which means the tires have to lean.

Try this. Lay a drinking cup on its side and roll it. It will roll in a circle, rolling around the smaller end.

A tire is like that. The larger part at the center of the tread has a faster rim speed than the smaller part near the wheel. The larger part - the tread - will need to pass the smaller part - next to the wheel. The tire must turn when it's laid over due to the dissimilar speeds on the same tire across the contact patch. It's the same as that drinking cup - physics makes it turn.

All you have to do to get a bike to turn is to lay the tire over and this "drinking cup" effect will turn the bike. You won't have a choice but to turn and the bike will pull you with it. Countersteering pushes the bike over and the tires physically have to turn. Physics demand it.

One of the greatest killers in motorcycle riding is "failure to negotiate a turn". A guy gets into a turn a bit fast and the bike begins to drift to the outside. He doesn't know to countersteer and he tries to lean. Leaning your body forces the bike the other way to the outside and the bike heads for the ditch!!

For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. If you lean one way on your bike you'll push it the other way and it will turn to the outside!!!!!! The bigger the bike the worse that is because it can't be manhandled. A light push on the opposite grip however will put it right where you want it!!!!

Cheers.

[CarolJadzia]

that guy most probably hit the front brake and lost the front or maybe lost the traction of the rear wheel. No way a bike weights 400 kg with rider and pillion goes down just because it is passing from some water.

bikes are less prone to aquaplaning because of smaller contact patch and pointier profile of motorcycle tires.

If you blow the video up to full screen and watch the handlebars there is no grab for the front brake. The hand stays firmly on the throttle.

As I explained above and again from the shared post from Survival Skills, where you point about the reduced profile of motorcycle tyres was also made - less prone but still happens.

[NeverSure]

OK. Suppose I could sit on my bike and balance it when it wasn't moving, and then I leaned to my left. I'd push the top of the bike over to my right. Opposite and equal reaction. The bike would fall over to my right. Leaning is the opposite of what we must do.

If the bike leans in any direction it must physically turn in the direction it leans due to the same principle that rolls a drinking cup in a circle. It's the dissimilar circumferences across the contact patch of the tire as it gets smaller toward the wheel.

If you roll a loose tire across the road it will go straight only until it begins to lean and then it will turn increasingly more as it leans more. It can't roll straight while leaning because of this same principle as the drinking cup.

All of us while learning, before training, would get into a corner a bit too fast and be unable to tighten the turn. We'd have to get on the brakes and hope. Once we learned to countersteer to lay the bike over more our troubles were over. More lean of the bike means a much tighter turn with no more help from us. When the bike leans it will turn positively and pull us with it.

We countersteer to lay the bike over and physics does the rest. The bike must turn in the direction it leans in proportion to the amount it leans. It has to.

We are just along for the ride, pushing on one grip or the other as needed to lean the bike.

Cheers.

[CarolJadzia]

I see that Carl gets his knickers all in a twist again. Been an instructor for 15 years bla bla bla, Trained thousands of people bla bla bla. Standards bla bla bla, studied bla bla bla. We heard it all many many times before here and it sounds like a stuck record , very tedious.

So your lack of intelligent comment leads your to gender digs does it? Well done that really demonstrates your knowledge of the subject.

[NeverSure]

If you blow the video up to full screen and watch the handlebars there is no grab for the front brake. The hand stays firmly on the throttle.

As I explained above and again from the shared post from Survival Skills, where you point about the reduced profile of motorcycle tyres was also made - less prone but still happens.

The bike didn't hydroplane or it would have gone down smoothly almost in slow motion with the front wheel drifting sideways in that slight curve. Didn't happen.

What happened is that the water grabbed the front tire and turned it before the guy could react against that and the bike went down. It was the physical force of friction from the tire going through, not over, the water that suddenly turned the front wheel and dumped the bike.

It's too simple if you'll just relax.

[CarolJadzia]

OK. Suppose I could sit on my bike and balance it when it wasn't moving, and then I leaned to my left. I'd push the top of the bike over to my right. Opposite and equal reaction. The bike would fall over to my right. Leaning is the opposite of what we must do.

If the bike leans in any direction it must physically turn in the direction it leans due to the same principle that rolls a drinking cup in a circle. It's the dissimilar circumferences across the contact patch of the tire as it gets smaller toward the wheel.

If you roll a loose tire across the road it will go straight only until it begins to lean and then it will turn increasingly more as it leans more. It can't roll straight while leaning because of this same principle as the drinking cup.

All of us while learning, before training, would get into a corner a bit too fast and be unable to tighten the turn. We'd have to get on the brakes and hope. Once we learned to countersteer to lay the bike over more our troubles were over. More lean of the bike means a much tighter turn with no more help from us. When the bike leans it will turn positively and pull us with it.

We countersteer to lay the bike over and physics does the rest. The bike must turn in the direction it leans in proportion to the amount it leans. It has to.

We are just along for the ride, pushing on one grip or the other as needed to lean the bike.

Cheers.

Yes, very nice lecture on some basic principles of counter steering that has nothing to do with the OP.

But all this talk misses the bottom line - the rider in the video does not make a grab for the front brake and it is his tyres that slip out, nothing to do with if he is leaning or not.

Try watching the video in slow motion HD, it's clear what happens. The rider is riding as we teach across Europe as standard - to grip the bars when normally riding. His hand does not move.

[HidyHo]

No Surprise / No Accident

I've seen some Thai FB posts that present this guy as some sort of a hero for grabbing the girl's arm but, in my mind, I'm thinking "what kind of idiot put his gal in this sort of situation/danger" in the first place?

At least they appear to be properly attired which helped them with the slide.

[canuckamuck]

OK. Suppose I could sit on my bike and balance it when it wasn't moving, and then I leaned to my left. I'd push the top of the bike over to my right. Opposite and equal reaction. The bike would fall over to my right. Leaning is the opposite of what we must do.

If the bike leans in any direction it must physically turn in the direction it leans due to the same principle that rolls a drinking cup in a circle. It's the dissimilar circumferences across the contact patch of the tire as it gets smaller toward the wheel.

If you roll a loose tire across the road it will go straight only until it begins to lean and then it will turn increasingly more as it leans more. It can't roll straight while leaning because of this same principle as the drinking cup.

All of us while learning, before training, would get into a corner a bit too fast and be unable to tighten the turn. We'd have to get on the brakes and hope. Once we learned to countersteer to lay the bike over more our troubles were over. More lean of the bike means a much tighter turn with no more help from us. When the bike leans it will turn positively and pull us with it.

We countersteer to lay the bike over and physics does the rest. The bike must turn in the direction it leans in proportion to the amount it leans. It has to.

We are just along for the ride, pushing on one grip or the other as needed to lean the bike.

Cheers.

Yes, very nice lecture on some basic principles of counter steering that has nothing to do with the OP.

But all this talk misses the bottom line - the rider in the video does not make a grab for the front brake and it is his tyres that slip out, nothing to do with if he is leaning or not.

Try watching the video in slow motion HD, it's clear what happens. The rider is riding as we teach across Europe as standard - to grip the bars when normally riding. His hand does not move.

I think riding with your hands on the bars is fairly standard everywhere, not just Europe. Do you also teach them to ride with their arse on the seat. I hope that isn't considered advanced training.

[CarolJadzia]

No Surprise / No Accident

I've seen some Thai FB posts that present this guy as some sort of a hero for grabbing the girl's arm but, in my mind, I'm thinking "what kind of idiot put his gal in this sort of situation/danger" in the first place?

At least they appear to be properly attired which helped them with the slide.

As bikers we all make the choice to ride machines that put us into danger. If the safety bods have their way we will all be in automatically driven safety pods in the not too distant future.

But while we still have our freedom it's nice to be able to enjoy it as safely as strapping a fuel tank to the top of an engine and using it to propel yourself on two wheels will allow.

[CarolJadzia]

I think riding with your hands on the bars is fairly standard everywhere, not just Europe.

So you would think. But it has been argued by many that it is better to ride covering the levers due to reaction times.

[maykilceksin]

so better dont ride a bike if you dont lean while cornering. Were you training harley guys only? they dont lean much that is why i asked:)

your body needs to lean according to your speed and according to the corner! of course you can turn a corner even without leaning at 20 kph but it will be a dangerous and slow turn.

plus you lean out when doing low speed turning.

You don't have to lean to turn a bike. The bike has to lean, which means the tires have to lean.

Try this. Lay a drinking cup on its side and roll it. It will roll in a circle, rolling around the smaller end.

A tire is like that. The larger part at the center of the tread has a faster rim speed than the smaller part near the wheel. The larger part - the tread - will need to pass the smaller part - next to the wheel. The tire must turn when it's laid over due to the dissimilar speeds on the same tire across the contact patch. It's the same as that drinking cup - physics makes it turn.

All you have to do to get a bike to turn is to lay the tire over and this "drinking cup" effect will turn the bike. You won't have a choice but to turn and the bike will pull you with it. Countersteering pushes the bike over and the tires physically have to turn. Physics demand it.

One of the greatest killers in motorcycle riding is "failure to negotiate a turn". A guy gets into a turn a bit fast and the bike begins to drift to the outside. He doesn't know to countersteer and he tries to lean. Leaning your body forces the bike the other way to the outside and the bike heads for the ditch!!

For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. If you lean one way on your bike you'll push it the other way and it will turn to the outside!!!!!! The bigger the bike the worse that is because it can't be manhandled. A light push on the opposite grip however will put it right where you want it!!!!

Cheers.

at times, leaning the bike only does not work to negotiate a corner and you might need to lean more at a decreasing radius corner suddenly for example.

or lets say if you just negotiating the corner by only leaning your bike or tire, it is a boring ride because you need to be slower.

and of course when i am saying leaning it means you bike also leans with you. If you just lean while your bike is vertical you just crash somewhere of course!

that guy you exampled drifting from corner is just not leaning enough with his bike. your body positions need to be same with the bike. so if bike leans and you stay vertical, you cannot negotiate the turn nicely too.

this is how you need to be to negotiate a corner as fast as you can in safety.of course a hard lean angle here though but it explains:

and these are the wrong body positions:

Edited September 17, 2015 by maykilceksin

[CarolJadzia]

If you blow the video up to full screen and watch the handlebars there is no grab for the front brake. The hand stays firmly on the throttle.

As I explained above and again from the shared post from Survival Skills, where you point about the reduced profile of motorcycle tyres was also made - less prone but still happens.

The bike didn't hydroplane or it would have gone down smoothly almost in slow motion with the front wheel drifting sideways in that slight curve. Didn't happen.

What happened is that the water grabbed the front tire and turned it before the guy could react against that and the bike went down. It was the physical force of friction from the tire going through, not over, the water that suddenly turned the front wheel and dumped the bike.

It's too simple if you'll just relax.

In all my years of riding and teaching I have never had a wheel "Grabbed" by water, it does not happen. Even when riding through fast flowing fords it has never been an issue. Would take the volume of water that would actually wash the bike away in order to do that.

However loosing traction with the front tyre has happened lot's. In fact if you rode through British winters on UK roads you would have a far better understanding of actually what happens. We do it as standard, it is the way it is if you want to ride here in winter and sometimes even through the summer.

We have experienced what happens in the video many times, just we know know how to avoid the situation as best we can because our experience is built around it.

Like my friend said in the post I shared above. The steering will go light as traction is lost. Long as the bike is let run true and constant then the aim is to regain traction which normally happens a couple of seconds latter. Don't grab the bars tightly and gripping the tank with your knees can help. Keep the throttle constant and don't use the front brake.

[pokerkid]

I see that Carl gets his knickers all in a twist again. Been an instructor for 15 years bla bla bla, Trained thousands of people bla bla bla. Standards bla bla bla, studied bla bla bla. We heard it all many many times before here and it sounds like a stuck record , very tedious.

So your lack of intelligent comment leads your to gender digs does it? Well done that really demonstrates your knowledge of the subject.

doesn't change the fact that your posts are very tedious mate. btw, you been in the sas by any chance ?

[Briggsy]

Is there any indication of his speed at the time he goes down?

[CarolJadzia]

Is there any indication of his speed at the time he goes down?

Not from the speedo but from the distance he slid must have been doing 80 kph or so, typical speed for the road.

I see that Carl gets his knickers all in a twist again. Been an instructor for 15 years bla bla bla, Trained thousands of people bla bla bla. Standards bla bla bla, studied bla bla bla. We heard it all many many times before here and it sounds like a stuck record , very tedious.

So your lack of intelligent comment leads your to gender digs does it? Well done that really demonstrates your knowledge of the subject.

doesn't change the fact that your posts are very tedious mate. btw, you been in the sas by any chance ?

Sorry not a fan of planes, prefer boats. Don't think the SAS has much call for motorcycle instructors anyway?

Did it not occur to you that maybe spending 30 years as a Instructor Trainer teaching mostly male Instructors that I have grown experienced at having conversations with men like this and am well practiced at it?

[HooHaa]

i love it when <deleted> argue about nothing.