Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[WhiteTrash]

Not s scratch either side of her head, with that intensity, pretty accurate especially enraged

[IslandLover]

More memories by you that are unsubstantiated. I'm particularly interested in this little gem " including eye witnesses" Please go ahead and prove me wrong with a link that states they had these eye witnesses who were going to attend the trial. Other than those who were to afraid to attend.

"U Aung Myo Thant said one of the eyewitnesses saw the men who accompanied the British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller from the hotel shortly before the murder. Another witness said he had seen the rape by the light of his motorbike."

I'm sure you are quite satisfied in believing the reason these supposed witnesses don't seem to have materialized is because they were scared of by some vague but nefarious group, from appearing in court... or recording their testimony outside of court, or anything at all that would point to their actual existence.

That is a quite excellent link. Your prediction of why I think the witnesses are not testifying (hinted at in your linked article, and supported by other reports) is also spot on. Besides physical danger, their ability to continue living and working in Thailand would vanish were they to testify. The defense has statements, but they would (rightly) just be treated as hearsay unless the witnesses were willing to attend court.

According to Jonathan Head at the BBC, hearsay evidence is allowed in Thai courts.

[catsanddogs]

I struggle to imagine what happened that night when I consider the last very important piece of information that we got from the hoe analysis : it is now sure that David and Hannah had it in their hands, so the reenactment and what was said in the confession is inaccurate.

I remember clearly also that David showed signs of defense, he fought valiantly for his life and the pictures also show multiple small wounds not consistent with a hoe, which by the way didn't have David's blood on. How can the hoe still be considered as the only murder weapon ? This makes the scenario described by the RTP invalid and they have now been asked to think about it...

But then how is it possible for two small men like the B2 to do this, if there was no element of surprise that could have given them the needed advantage, David was a healthy tall young man, there was struggle for sure from both Hannah and David.

There were more than just two persons involved I am quite certain about that and more than just a hoe was used.

It is really normal to ask the RTP to provide a credible scenario now, the one they have presented in court is not.

One year after, we are still at square one, wondering what really happened that night. That is the sad truth about it, amongst so many lies.

I agree that this thread is highly annoying (your previous post) there are two maybe three people posting here that should be ashamed of themselves, I would love to meet them face to face to "talk about it" but that will not happen.

Setting asside all the conversations from the rational and intelligent posters on here who know exactly where this is at and why lets hit the reset button for a moment and mention one thing -

In any normal police investigation into a murder - it starts at the last known place the victims were seen alive and yet the glaringly obvious during these proceedings is the complete absence of any reference to that place

The AC Bar then. Where they were with their friends. And the friends said (as reported in the press) that Hannah and David left sometime between 3 and 4am. Why, when, how, where, what?? It's that simple. Clearly the answers are not simple though. Maybe the friends had witnessed something so terrible that they had to make a pact that they would stay silent and maybe the statements made to the British police upon their return home reflect this. The friends are obviously not prepared to help the defence so either they are scared for their own lives because they have information that could lead to the arrest of the true perpetrators, they don't care, or they believe the B2 are guilty. It's almost as if through their silence they have died too.

[smedly]

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

what face ? there is no face left, the general populous are so ashamed of this debacle they are not even covering it in national/local news, 60 odd million people in this nation are holding their head in shame hoping it will just go away

[jimmybkk]

The British government hides behind their policy of not getting involved in cases involving the death sentence and yet the UK's privy council acts as the court of final appeal for several countries that still impose the death penalty, meaning they make the final ruling in death sentence cases. Is it even possible to get more involved than that?

[WhiteTrash]

Easy to track her mates down, I'll go find them if you lot chip in for my flight

[loonodingle]

Easy to track her mates down, I'll go find them if you lot chip in for my flight

I already provided there address's to Andy Hall. Thats how they knew the police had already been Interviewed Informally

[smedly]

I believe we have a certain poster on here that must have everyone on ignore apart from one or 2 buddies coz he sure as hell takes no notice of the facts presented by other posters and is unable to comprehend basic logic. An I don't care attitude that is echoed by the RTP from the beginning of the investigation right through to the end of the prosecution case. Get a conviction and disregard all else. Fair trial......whats that, their just a couple of migrant scum in their eyes. Human rights defenders an inconvenient distraction but ignored never the less. Evidence that contradicts their case, we don't care.

Pure evil in my opinion

the tactic here BTW is to make sure that factual posts get drowned out in the BS so when you see a post that is factual or has sensible input it is not a bad idea to keep it current by agreeing with it .........keep it alive by replying with a short sentence

Edited September 23, 2015 by smedly

[catsanddogs]

I believe we have a certain poster on here that must have everyone on ignore apart from one or 2 buddies coz he sure as hell takes no notice of the facts presented by other posters and is unable to comprehend basic logic. An I don't care attitude that is echoed by the RTP from the beginning of the investigation right through to the end of the prosecution case. Get a conviction and disregard all else. Fair trial......whats that, their just a couple of migrant scum in their eyes. Human rights defenders an inconvenient distraction but ignored never the less. Evidence that contradicts their case, we don't care.

Pure evil in my opinion

the tactic here BTW is to make sure that factual posts get drowned out in the BS so when you see a post that is factual or has sensible input it is not a bad idea to keep it current by agreeing with it .........keep it alive by replying with a short sentence

Yes a good idea. It seems that the vast majority of posters who have been writing on these threads for the past year would concur with Andy Halls statement today -

"We believe, from my investigation, that they (the police) blocked out so much of other evidence that could have been used ... simply to focus on the two accused,"

[BritTim]

I have yet to see this "the defendants have a case to answer to" as NOTHING presented by the prosecution was anywhere near convincing enough to obtain a conviction anywhere , well perhaps apart from Thailand !!

The witnesses on both sides were more character references, no disrespect to the outstanding work Andy Hall does, but really what was the point in him being a defence "witness" he wasn't there and wasn't involved with the crime.

Same with several prosecution witnesses!! To say this trial has been bizarre is an understatement!! To say the investigation was thorough and well presented is anything but.

To say the RTP have been honest and sincere and factually correct with their investigation is an out and out falacy zippy and bungle from rainbow have more credibility!! And yet still couple of posters believe this has been the perfect case... I must be confused as this has been far from perfect not even close, not even 10% complete, a travesty really, the victims families must be wondering what the fexk is going on!!

... no disrespect to the outstanding work Andy Hall does, but really what was the point in him being a defence "witness" he wasn't there and wasn't involved with the crime.

I think he could give relevant information on one point. He has been involved with the work of human rights organizations documenting the many complaints of mistreatment of Burmese on Koh Tao at the point the local police there were working to create scapegoats. The fact that so many other Burmese were alleging torture at the same time adds weight to the Burmese kids' claims. Whether the confessions were freely given is still relevant, even when we know events cannot have transpired in the way those confessions described.

[loonodingle]

I have yet to see this "the defendants have a case to answer to" as NOTHING presented by the prosecution was anywhere near convincing enough to obtain a conviction anywhere , well perhaps apart from Thailand !!

The witnesses on both sides were more character references, no disrespect to the outstanding work Andy Hall does, but really what was the point in him being a defence "witness" he wasn't there and wasn't involved with the crime.

Same with several prosecution witnesses!! To say this trial has been bizarre is an understatement!! To say the investigation was thorough and well presented is anything but.

To say the RTP have been honest and sincere and factually correct with their investigation is an out and out falacy zippy and bungle from rainbow have more credibility!! And yet still couple of posters believe this has been the perfect case... I must be confused as this has been far from perfect not even close, not even 10% complete, a travesty really, the victims families must be wondering what the fexk is going on!!

... no disrespect to the outstanding work Andy Hall does, but really what was the point in him being a defence "witness" he wasn't there and wasn't involved with the crime.

I think he could give relevant information on one point. He has been involved with the work of human rights organizations documenting the many complaints of mistreatment of Burmese on Koh Tao at the point the local police there were working to create scapegoats. The fact that so many other Burmese were alleging torture at the same time adds weight to the Burmese kids' claims. Whether the confessions were freely given is still relevant, even when we know events cannot have transpired in the way those confessions described.

I can tell you that without his input those young men would be dead and buried already.

[nottocus]

Stealth, I admire your optimism but it's not realistic. No heads will roll, no face will be lost, and no changes will be made. They couldn't care less about what we think, it's all about Thailand.

what face ? there is no face left, the general populous are so ashamed of this debacle they are not even covering it in national/local news, 60 odd million people in this nation are holding their head in shame hoping it will just go away

I'd say most of those 60 million don't give a rat's. They just want to get on with their lives.

[BritTim]

Island Lover - re your post 247

Yes it was mentioned by officer Somsak that a hammer was also believed to have been used but was never found.

Thanks. So, much like the "wine bottle" then?

No, not quite like the wine bottle. They collected some fragments of glass from the beach which, while not forensically tested, they claimed might be from a wine bottle. It is fortunate for the prosecution that they provided such overwhelming evidence for the hammer and wine bottle as weapons. Otherwise, with the hoe now likely to have mainly been used defensively by Hannah and David, it might not have been obvious how the two diminutive Burmese kids could have overwhelmed their victims.

[RWA]

Well, and as I said in the very first place, and will repeat again now, I am not interested in anything that goes on behind the scenes if it is not presented in a court of law and used as evidence. Even Forensic Experts have a right to their own opinion.

If she has some damning evidence, which has been claimed for months, then present it to the court. That is if she is not breaking any UK Laws, which she should check first. But go ahead. I am all ears. Let's see what she has. Or is all that just more smoke and no fire?

Yes all ears do you have anything inbetween?

Back with the insults again are we?

I think it's actually flattering, uncle ! ... it suggests there must be a head somewhere above fast typing fingers?

Edited September 23, 2015 by RWA

[BritTim]

@catsanddogs - you are absolutely correct. Why have these so-called "friends" remained so resolutely silent? I find it depressing. On the one hand I can understand them not wanting to come back to Thailand to testify as witnesses after the harassment Chris Ware suffered at the hands of the RTP and others, but I cannot believe they know absolutely nothing about what happened that night. They are witnesses, by the very nature of their being with Hannah and David that night, for God's sake! We are told that they all had to give statements to the British police on their return to the U.K., but like the Metropolitan Police report on the RTP investigation, those statements may never see the light of day, and certainly not at this trial. I understand the Defence team did appeal to these travelling companions to come forward but they were met with total silence. I also cannot believe that nobody heard anything while the murders were being carried out. The crime scene was just yards from the Ocean View resort. Surely there must have been other tourists in those rooms which overlook the rocks on Sairee beach who may have heard shouting and screaming? Yet no-one has come forward. It just doesn't make sense. Unfortunately it has become a despicable trait in the 21st century that people don't want to become involved when something like that occurs and will just look the other way. People are more interested in self-preservation than helping others and doing the right thing.

I think the only occasion these friends are likely to speak out will be at the inquests in the U.K. (the Coroner could demand it), but those could be years away. If this case goes to appeal I don't believe the inquests will be held until all the Thai court processes have been exhausted.

I am inclined to be more charitable in my assessment of the victims' friends. You need to judge their actions in the light of their youth, lack of world experience, and total ignorance of how things work in Thailand specifically. They will have given full statements to both the Thai police (who will have been charming) and the UK police. They will then consider they have done their duty, especially when they have been advised not to talk to the media and to leave it to the professionals to ensure justice is done. They are guilty of being naive, not selfish. I am sorry for them because, in time, some will realize they were manipulated.

[StealthEnergiser]

I have always been of the opinion that "running man" was wearing Davids shorts, possibly the only clean clothing not stained with blood that he could wear running up the street, they looked wet and far to big for the person wearing them, a dna test would be quite interesting

I don't see a belt on the shorts in any of the CCTV footage of "running man". Surely if a skinny Asian youth had been running around in David's shorts without a belt, he would have needed to use one hand to hold them up as they would have been far too big and loose? Otherwise, they would have fallen down around his ankles in no time. I don't see that happening in any of the CCTV footage. David's shorts were pictured at the crime scene, and afterwards, with a dark coloured belt. Even those blue things on the beach in the early "unofficial" crime scene photos had a belt around them.

I agree, all the victims' clothes should have been DNA tested. But they weren't, were they? The only possible reason they were not is that it could have identified the real killers.

There a many unanswered things like the extra pieces of clothing you mention I was also thinking about the hoe .

With the hoe we still don't know what hoe was used as there are 2 hoes in question a broken one that showed blood on it and the other with a plastic bag over the handle end.

As someone else has also mentioned could it be possible that Hannah's and davids dna was intentionally put on the hoe by someone by wiping it on there bodies .

Would it be possible that some person has used B2 clothing and wiped it over Hanna's body and leave traces of DNA but there are reports that clothing was stolen from the b2.

Is it possible the DNA was taken from the b2 's clothes and not from hannah ?

The other option is that a switch of names on DNA bottles may have been done.

Edited September 23, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[RWA]

@catsanddogs - you are absolutely correct. Why have these so-called "friends" remained so resolutely silent? I find it depressing. On the one hand I can understand them not wanting to come back to Thailand to testify as witnesses after the harassment Chris Ware suffered at the hands of the RTP and others, but I cannot believe they know absolutely nothing about what happened that night. They are witnesses, by the very nature of their being with Hannah and David that night, for God's sake! We are told that they all had to give statements to the British police on their return to the U.K., but like the Metropolitan Police report on the RTP investigation, those statements may never see the light of day, and certainly not at this trial. I understand the Defence team did appeal to these travelling companions to come forward but they were met with total silence. I also cannot believe that nobody heard anything while the murders were being carried out. The crime scene was just yards from the Ocean View resort. Surely there must have been other tourists in those rooms which overlook the rocks on Sairee beach who may have heard shouting and screaming? Yet no-one has come forward. It just doesn't make sense. Unfortunately it has become a despicable trait in the 21st century that people don't want to become involved when something like that occurs and will just look the other way. People are more interested in self-preservation than helping others and doing the right thing.

I think the only occasion these friends are likely to speak out will be at the inquests in the U.K. (the Coroner could demand it), but those could be years away. If this case goes to appeal I don't believe the inquests will be held until all the Thai court processes have been exhausted.

I am inclined to be more charitable in my assessment of the victims' friends. You need to judge their actions in the light of their youth, lack of world experience, and total ignorance of how things work in Thailand specifically. They will have given full statements to both the Thai police (who will have been charming) and the UK police. They will then consider they have done their duty, especially when they have been advised not to talk to the media and to leave it to the professionals to ensure justice is done. They are guilty of being naive, not selfish. I am sorry for them because, in time, some will realize they were manipulated.

Tim, whilst I really do appreciate your "charitable assessment", I must agree with IslandLover.

Youth, lack of experience, naivety, manipulation, just can not be an "excuse" here!

Hannah and David haven't been there among just a strangers, but with their best friends, close buddies - with whom they've chosen to "travel the exotic world", when they got brutally and cowardly attacked, mutilated and killed.

Hannah was witty, funny, outspoken young lady.David was intelligent, strong, independently minded, brave, all fair-play young man. Both well educated, mature, articulate people raised up in a democratic society, under high standard ethics.

No matter how hard I try, I just can't imagine these two people (the victims) to exercise such a deafening silence if THAT may have happened to ANY of their friends there and then ...!!!

But quite well, I CAN imagine Hannah and David keep on calling out loud and clear for all answers, sharing their info, observations, thoughts and frustration until the justice for their lost friends would be served !!!

I don't believe Hannah and David could have been silenced, under any circumstances, as not to ask: "what on Earth could have happened to my friend shortly after:

1.) she left her phone/purse, anything with me at the AC bar, when she told me she's going .... where .... for what ... with who ... and will be back here ... in the room ... anywhere ... at anytime?!!!"

2.) he left our room saying he goes ...

where .... for what ... with who ... and will be back here ... in the room ... anywhere ... at anytime?!!!"

Seems to me that Hannah and David alike were sort of dominant in their separate little groups of close friends. Why Hannah was not accompanied by her friend who otherwise was with her for the whole evening out? How come she haven't been missed (and looked for) after this Hannah friend returned to the empty resort room (at what time) and in an hours afterwards?

How come David's friend hasn't been concerned (or just curious) for an hours after he left for 7/eleven or whatever?

Especially if/when there was some altercation, or little conflict, hassle, whatever, with the locals just early on?

I'm sure Hannah and David's facebook, twitter, news, anything would be stuffed with their relevant info, observations, questions, thoughts, frustration, appeals, etc., until the justice could be served to those of close friends they've lost in such a brutal, unexpected, tragic way!

But they don't seem to have / get this same of concern and or effort from their own friends?

Edited September 23, 2015 by RWA

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

MWRN has documented and revealed to the court through videos and still images alleged torture and violence inflicted on migrants on Koh Tao

Edited September 23, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Little time to tweet yesterday during full days witness testimony Koh Tao case but observers summary of my testimony https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153235399845677&id=675065676 …

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

The testimony covered my own investigation alongside MWRN into torture allegations from Myanmar migrants during Koh Tao murder investigation

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

I then explained significant contradictions between UK and Thai autopsies on the body of deceased Koh Tao murder victim Hannah Witheridge

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

I based autopsy testimony on a comparison of the two autopsy reports and my direct communication with the renowned autopsy doctor in UK

Edited September 23, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Then presented to court an expert forensic report and accompanying video stating that based on gait analysis the running man is not Wai Phyo

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

I pointed out Thai police cited no scientific evidence suggesting running man was Wai Phyo and based their conclusion on 'similar looks'

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

After that presented to court video of the Roti Man telling channel 3 news the accused admitted to killing the deceased with a wine bottle

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

I outlined migrant testimony and my research that Koh Tao was a lawless place to live and work. Migrants had to pay monthly protection fees.

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Main basis prosecution cross examination seemed to me an attempt to convince court that I was seeking to personally benefit from the case

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Prosecution questioned many times MWRN's fund spending/transparency. Each time I explained in detail spending/highlighted spending summaries

Edited September 23, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[sweatalot]

I have yet to see this "the defendants have a case to answer to" as NOTHING presented by the prosecution was anywhere near convincing enough to obtain a conviction anywhere , well perhaps apart from Thailand !!

The witnesses on both sides were more character references, no disrespect to the outstanding work Andy Hall does, but really what was the point in him being a defence "witness" he wasn't there and wasn't involved with the crime.

Same with several prosecution witnesses!! To say this trial has been bizarre is an understatement!! To say the investigation was thorough and well presented is anything but.

To say the RTP have been honest and sincere and factually correct with their investigation is an out and out falacy zippy and bungle from rainbow have more credibility!! And yet still couple of posters believe this has been the perfect case... I must be confused as this has been far from perfect not even close, not even 10% complete, a travesty really, the victims families must be wondering what the fexk is going on!!

"still couple of posters believe this has been the perfect case"

Even they can't be that stupid - they are able to write complete English sentences

I would say

"still couple of posters claim this has been the perfect case"

Edited September 23, 2015 by sweatalot

[fab99]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Main basis prosecution cross examination seemed to me an attempt to convince court that I was seeking to personally benefit from the case

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45]

Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Prosecution questioned many times MWRN's fund spending/transparency. Each time I explained in detail spending/highlighted spending summaries

It reminds of some people here trying to paint a bad picture of Andy Hall intentions and motives, seriously if he did all he does for the money, he didn't choose the right cases, and wouldn't have taken the risks he has taken in the natural fruit case.

Like someone said before, I strongly believe that without him, this trial would have been very very different, the B2 owe him big time. The coverage he has given to the case saved them so far.

The donations don't amount to huge sums and for such a trial, you need funds obviously, the 2 accused wouldn't have been able to fight the accusation without the generosity of many concerned donors.

But it is easier to attack the messenger than it's message I guess...

Edited September 23, 2015 by fab99

[fireplay]

But Mr Hall told the court that the examination by the Norfolk coroner discovered .......... (REMOVED) contradicting the contents of the Thai pathologists report conducted immediately after her death.

The prosecution has alleged that her injuries are consistent ......... (REMOVED)

So whats the deal? Gunshot???

[StealthEnergiser]

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

Some Acume Forensics pictures gait analysis stating running man not Wai Phyo uploaded here https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153235423705677&id=675065676&ref=m_notif&notif_t=tagged_with_story …

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

MWRN continue to warmly welcome donations to support justice in Koh Tao murder trial

[fab99]

But Mr Hall told the court that the examination by the Norfolk coroner discovered .......... (REMOVED) contradicting the contents of the Thai pathologists report conducted immediately after her death.

The prosecution has alleged that her injuries are consistent ......... (REMOVED)

So whats the deal? Gunshot???

Yes, quite frustrating to not learn more about the discrepancies, it will probably be published somewhere else or leaked at one point.

The full reports will be made public one day, the judges know that and know what is inside the reports, so I'm confident they will take them into account.

[StealthEnergiser]

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Andy Hall‏@Atomicalandy

MWRN raised around 2m baht which dwarfs into insignificance by millions of baht Thai government has spent on a shambolic prosecution case