Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[Fat Haggis]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Jesus just saw this post from you! Have you not read the previous posts? The dna on the hoe that was not identified could also have shown the same results from any man dragged off the street! If your clinging to that then desperation has set in for you that has transformed into delusion.

As for no signs of rape does not mean there was no rape, your correct, that is possible, however we are not talking one single act of violence here but multiple and I will not go into details. For that it would be highly unlikely to not have signs and thats why the UK report is so relevant along with Dr Pornthips report.

Yeah, it's a slam dunk there was no rape, thus no semen, otherwise the RTP would put the sealed and dated test-tube, plus the results on the defence's table at the outset of the trial and tell them to disprove it.

The absence of ANY such evidence or RTP's willingness to produce same is absolute proof there is none. Read that again. There is none. It's been a fit-up from day one they arrested the B2 and tortured them into confessing to crimes they did not commit. I applaud the UK coroner for seeking natural justice by condemning the Thai autopsy as being false.

The sad thing is that there are some here who believe the opposite in that he UK coroners report is false, making it some kind of "conspiracy" amongst the defence team, and that they're manipulating the press, amongst others.

" I saw you steal that Apple"

" prove it"

" I can't , you ate it"

" what Apple? "

[catsanddogs]

30th September

Lieutenant General Panya Mamen, police commissioner for the island of Koh Tao, told the Bangkok Post: “Two of the suspects raped and killed Witheridge while another one witnessed the murder.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-was-raped-by-two-men-before-being-killed-9765137.html

.........................................

30th September

Police believe a student from Hemsby may have been raped before being killed on the Thai island of Koh Tao.

http://www.heart.co.uk/eastanglia/news/local/hemsby-murdered-student-may-have-been-raped/#VWZHCxTq31vZf7Bp.97

....................................

4th December

Post-mortem examination results showed both died from blows to the head, Ms Witheridge had been raped and Mr Miller had also drowned.

http://news.sky.com/story/1385562/thailand-men-charged-with-killing-britons

.........................................

17th September 2014

An autopsy on Miss Witheridge's body found that she had also suffered trauma to her head and revealed evidence of sexual activity shortly before she died.

However, Maj Gen Pornchai said the tests did not necessarily indicate that she had been raped as initially suggested.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/thailand/11103274/DNA-found-on-body-of-murdered-British-backpacker-in-Thailand-no-match-to-suspects.html

........................................................

17th September 2014

Early reports said Witheridge may have also been the victim of a rapist before she was killed but, according to the Bangkok Post, tests performed by the Police Hospital's Institute of Forensic Medicine have revealed she appeared to have engaged in "sexual relations" before her death.

Police major general Pornchai Suteerakhun did not, however, rule out an attempted rape but said Witheridge might have fought the perpetrator off.

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/koh-tao-thailand-hannah-witheridge-not-raped-david-091759581.html#nMSCfIH

............................................

2nd October 2014

The post-mortem also revealed signs the Witheridge may have had recent sexual activity, but forensics experts do not believe she was raped.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/02/burmese-man-confesses-to-murders-british-tourists-hannah-witheridge-david-miller_n_5919328.html

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/koh-tao-thailand-hannah-witheridge-not-raped-david-091759581.html#nMSCfIH

.........................................

[Dogmatix]

It is hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that:

- Hannah was not raped, since the Home Office pathologist found nothing consistent with that. Therefore Thai police cannot have found any semen traces in her body.

- Police took DNA saliva samples from the 2B and divided each into two parts: one labelled semen sample and the other labelled saliva sample.

If this is the case, it is very easy to understand why police have:

- Failed to provide the semen samples for independent retesting, claiming they were all 'used up'.

- Failed to provide documentation relating to DNA collection, testing and the chain of custody.

- Failed to provide copies of their crime scene photographs, citing the pathetic excuse of lack of budget to print them.

- Claimed to have 'Lost' Hannah's clothing.

- Failed to test the hoe.

- Didn't even attempt to explain how David's wounds could have been inflicted with the blade of the hoe, as they claimed.

- Provided only limited CCTV footage.

- Used illegal stateless immigrants who are totally illiterate in both Thai and Burmese and have only a limited verbal command of both languages as official translators.

- Etc, etc.

[xylophone]

There is no doubt that the posters on this thread are passionate about what they believe in, and the vast majority of posters really want to see justice served.

There are just a handful of posters who are supporting the RTP case, whereas the majority see the case for what it is, and that is a prosecution case which has more holes in it than a colander, where crime scene contamination was rife, correct procedures were not followed with regards to the collection of evidence, evidence has gone missing and most damning of all is the fact that the UK coroners report disagrees with the Thai report, not to mention the fact that Thailand's own Dr Pornthip has criticised evidence/documentation provided by the RTP as being incomplete and having major corrections as well as basic errors.

Additionally, the fact that the prosecution does not have any "smoking gun" which they promised they would produce and the fact that they haven't, must raise serious doubts as to the veracity of their case.

Another puzzling aspect of this thread is the fact that it would appear that the posters who support the RTP case will actually come from countries (this is an assumption) where the rule of law is a major part of the functioning of that country and by and large corruption is minimal and the police are trustworthy.

So for them to conveniently disregard the fact that if this case were being presented in one of their home countries, it would never have made it to court, or it would have been thrown out very early on in the piece. In that case one has to ask oneself why they are taking the line that they are………there have to be other motives in this.

Now this is something that I don't want to think about, but has been bugging me particularly over the last few days, and that is that it is entirely possible despite everything that has been said and the major flaws which have been pointed out in the RTP case, that the two Burmese guys will be found guilty.

And this will not be because they are guilty but because Thailand has "followed its true nature" in as much as it has to be remembered that this country worships wealth, no matter how it has been accrued, power and status and will do anything to "save face" (yes, anything).

To assist with the above, corruption is rife and the RTP have been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand (as reported by the Office of the Ombudsman, Thailand) so when you bring everything together, with wealthy families, money, police chiefs and generals needing to save face because of their statements and the fact that this is indeed a Third World country with regards to justice, a guilty verdict is really to be expected.

Remember that whether or not they committed the crime has absolutely nothing to do with a guilty verdict, it is just the way that Thailand operates, as sickening and despicable as it is.

[Fat Haggis]

It is hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that:

- Hannah was not raped, since the Home Office pathologist found nothing consistent with that. Therefore Thai police cannot have found any semen traces in her body.

- Police took DNA saliva samples from the 2B and divided each into two parts: one labelled semen sample and the other labelled saliva sample.

If this is the case, it is very easy to understand why police have:

- Failed to provide the semen samples for independent retesting, claiming they were all 'used up'.

- Failed to provide documentation relating to DNA collection, testing and the chain of custody.

- Failed to provide copies of their crime scene photographs, citing the pathetic excuse of lack of budget to print them.

- Claimed to have 'Lost' Hannah's clothing.

- Failed to test the hoe.

- Didn't even attempt to explain how David's wounds could have been inflicted with the blade of the hoe, as they claimed.

- Provided only limited CCTV footage.

- Used illegal stateless immigrants who are totally illiterate in both Thai and Burmese and have only a limited verbal command of both languages as official translators.

- Etc, etc.

Excellent post, it would also, in my opinion cast doubts on the Thai coroners "estimated time of death"

It's pretty obvious the crime scene was very carefully staged to make it look like there was a horrific sexual attack on Hannah, that takes someone with a bit of "knowledge" about Crime scenes and how they can/will be interpreted.

That smell you are getting is the smell of bullshit emanating from the RTP and prosecutions mouthes !!

[Dogmatix]

There is no doubt that the posters on this thread are passionate about what they believe in, and the vast majority of posters really want to see justice served.

There are just a handful of posters who are supporting the RTP case, whereas the majority see the case for what it is, and that is a prosecution case which has more holes in it than a colander, where crime scene contamination was rife, correct procedures were not followed with regards to the collection of evidence, evidence has gone missing and most damning of all is the fact that the UK coroners report disagrees with the Thai report, not to mention the fact that Thailand's own Dr Pornthip has criticised evidence/documentation provided by the RTP as being incomplete and having major corrections as well as basic errors.

Additionally, the fact that the prosecution does not have any "smoking gun" which they promised they would produce and the fact that they haven't, must raise serious doubts as to the veracity of their case.

Another puzzling aspect of this thread is the fact that it would appear that the posters who support the RTP case will actually come from countries (this is an assumption) where the rule of law is a major part of the functioning of that country and by and large corruption is minimal and the police are trustworthy.

So for them to conveniently disregard the fact that if this case were being presented in one of their home countries, it would never have made it to court, or it would have been thrown out very early on in the piece. In that case one has to ask oneself why they are taking the line that they are………there have to be other motives in this.

Now this is something that I don't want to think about, but has been bugging me particularly over the last few days, and that is that it is entirely possible despite everything that has been said and the major flaws which have been pointed out in the RTP case, that the two Burmese guys will be found guilty.

And this will not be because they are guilty but because Thailand has "followed its true nature" in as much as it has to be remembered that this country worships wealth, no matter how it has been accrued, power and status and will do anything to "save face" (yes, anything).

To assist with the above, corruption is rife and the RTP have been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand (as reported by the Office of the Ombudsman, Thailand) so when you bring everything together, with wealthy families, money, police chiefs and generals needing to save face because of their statements and the fact that this is indeed a Third World country with regards to justice, a guilty verdict is really to be expected.

Remember that whether or not they committed the crime has absolutely nothing to do with a guilty verdict, it is just the way that Thailand operates, as sickening and despicable as it is.

I fear that this is exactly what is going to happen. The judges in Samui will be far too scared of all the pooyai involved to acquit based on the prosecution's utterly incoherent case. In addition, throwing out the police forensic evidence, the only thing that connects to the 2B to one victim (but not to the other) as clearly falsified would rock the foundation of Thailand's forensic system, whereby the police are allowed to do all the forensics themselves without independent verification, except in a very few cases where limited evidence has been reluctantly given to Dr Pornthip's dept for re-testing. For the Samui judges the line of least resistance is to kick the can down the road and leave the decision to the appellate court or the supreme court. This gives more time for foreign media to lose interest in the case and for the defendants to mysteriously die in prison, as well rendering it even more difficult to apprehend and prosecute the real murderers.

[Fat Haggis]

Didn't the RTP also state that the accused DNA was sent to 2-3 different locations for analysis, which surely would mean 2-3 different physical results on different institutions report forms?

Again, surely they can out of all the places they "allegedly " sent these samples to provide a complete "chain of custody"?

How credible is the RTPs statement that a certain individual had his DNA taken, and was proven to be no match?

I will remind a certain individual using his own analogy that an absence of a sexual assault doesn't mean a rape hasn't taken place with

The absence of DNA doesn't clear that person of murder!!

A single frame from a cctv video camera is also not proof of presence either!!

[Wifflewaffle]

This is from the thai autopsy. as you will see they have not said she was raped.

The autopsy report indicates that Ms. Witheridge had engaged in sexual intercourse prior to her death, but it is unclear whether the act was consensual or forced. A number of media agencies previously reported that she was raped.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/761319-koh-tao-autopsy-of-murdered-britons-shows-struggle-drowning/

The police have stated she was raped by the accused on many occasions, so are you now in agreement that they have been wrong in this case, in that the defendants did not rape the deceased?

In other words the RTP have fabricated evidence, based on what you've just said, to support their basis that they raped then murdered the deceased.

Would you care to explain how it's possible that neither the accused 's DNA is present on the alleged murder weapon, however the victims DNA is present?

Would you care to explain how the Thai coroner could come to that conclusion and how did the RTP arrive at that conclusion also, when a distant lack of the accused DNA is on the very instrument they allegedly killed their victim?

Why would they kill Hannah if she participated in consensual sex with either of the accused, what possible motive could they have had, after an act of consensual sex?

I'm all ears as this will be very interesting to hear, as it's going to be a complete contradiction as to the version of events the RTP and the prosecution are pushing!!

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Jesus just saw this post from you! Have you not read the previous posts? The dna on the hoe that was not identified could also have shown the same results from any man dragged off the street! If your clinging to that then desperation has set in for you that has transformed into delusion.

As for no signs of rape does not mean there was no rape, your correct, that is possible, however we are not talking one single act of violence here but multiple and I will not go into details. For that it would be highly unlikely to not have signs and thats why the UK report is so relevant along with Dr Pornthips report.

1st point read my post again.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could NOT ! be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Second point

again thats for the prosecution and defense to argue

[Dogmatix]

It is hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that:

- Hannah was not raped, since the Home Office pathologist found nothing consistent with that. Therefore Thai police cannot have found any semen traces in her body.

- Police took DNA saliva samples from the 2B and divided each into two parts: one labelled semen sample and the other labelled saliva sample.

If this is the case, it is very easy to understand why police have:

- Failed to provide the semen samples for independent retesting, claiming they were all 'used up'.

- Failed to provide documentation relating to DNA collection, testing and the chain of custody.

- Failed to provide copies of their crime scene photographs, citing the pathetic excuse of lack of budget to print them.

- Claimed to have 'Lost' Hannah's clothing.

- Failed to test the hoe.

- Didn't even attempt to explain how David's wounds could have been inflicted with the blade of the hoe, as they claimed.

- Provided only limited CCTV footage.

- Used illegal stateless immigrants who are totally illiterate in both Thai and Burmese and have only a limited verbal command of both languages as official translators.

- Etc, etc.

Excellent post, it would also, in my opinion cast doubts on the Thai coroners "estimated time of death"

It's pretty obvious the crime scene was very carefully staged to make it look like there was a horrific sexual attack on Hannah, that takes someone with a bit of "knowledge" about Crime scenes and how they can/will be interpreted.

That smell you are getting is the smell of bullshit emanating from the RTP and prosecutions mouthes !!

Good point. We had all assumed that Hannah had been raped before the poor girl was murdered, as claimed by the police pathologists, and this seemed highly plausible, particularly in the light of the horrific unofficial crime scene photographs that were obviously leaked by police deliberately. However, the new evidence provided by the UK coroner that Hannah was not, in fact, raped, we now have to question whether her body was re-arranged after death by pulling her top done, pulling up her skirt and removing her underwear to make it look as if it was a sexually motivated attack. Perhaps this was done by the 'running man', footage of whom was released in the naive belief that it could be pinned on some one else, since no features were recognisable but without any knowledge of scientific gait analysis.

This would easily explain why Hannah's clothing was 'mislaid' and why a police department, whose generals sport multiple mansions, luxury sedans, billion baht stock portfolios and exclusive overseas educations for their spawn, was unable to scrape together a measly few hundred baht to print out the 'official' crime scene photographs which might have made tampering discernible to an expert eye, such as Dr Pornthip's. As an aside, it is a good example of the impotence of the judicial branch that the judge couldn't make a court order for the photographs making clear that the case would be dismissed, if police still refused to comply.

The lack of any credible evidence of rape removes any possible motive for the 2B to have murdered Hannah and David. The fabricated confessions covered this point by claiming that the 2B became 'aroused' when they allegedly saw David and Hannah having sex. Since this explanation no longer retains a shred of credibility, why would the 2B midgets decide to take on a strapping young farang like David and murder him along with Hannah. Even though they might have earlier seen one or other or both of them in the bar they worked or in the street, it is inconceivable that anything could have happened that could have made the 2B so angry with them that they would have wanted to murder them. Even more unlikely that, having murdered them in a drunken state, they would have had the presence of mind to re-arrange Hannah's body to make it look like a rape. A rape to frame whom and how could they have imagined they had the money and connections to frame anyone?

What we are left with seems to be a completely motiveless crime committed by two defendants who might not have had the physical stature and strength to accomplish it. Having committed the motiveless crime with extreme physical difficulty, despite being paralytically drunk, they then cleverly re-arranged the body of the female victim to make it look as if she had been raped, thus transforming it into a crime with a motive that could easily be pinned on them.

[sambum]

This has always interested me and again does not fit the scenario and the whole case that has been created by the RTP

Hannah Witheridge shared cigarette with someone before attack, say police

Traces of Miss Witheridge's DNA and that of one other person were found on a cigarette butt some 50 yards from where her body was found, suggesting the 23-year-old shared it with her attackers and even had a conversation with them before being killed.

So one of the key pieces of evidence that the prosecution has, ie the DNA on the cigarette butts is of course vanished and not available for retesting:

This is in the daily mail not available in Thailand but you can still view through Google translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=fr&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailymail.co.uk%2Fnews%2Farticle-2762055%2FThai-divers-hunt-missing-murder-weapon-tourists-flock-spot-British-duo-murdered.html&edit-text=&act=url

The defense was very keen to have the butts tested however:

Interview with Dr Pornthip

There were previous reports that DNA found on the butt of a cigarette shared by the two suspects matched that found on the female victim’s body. Were you able to consider that evidence?

No. Because the police said that all that evidence was destroyed already. The police said there was no evidence left to send to our institute.

http://www.irrawaddy.org/interview/dr-pornthip-victims-or-suspects-have-the-right-to-ask-for-a-second-opinion.html

Interesting topic the cigarette butt, because it was reported somewhere last year that Hannah was a non smoker!?!?

Yes, I read that too!

[thailandchilli]

Just because there are not signs of rape doesn't mean she was not raped.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could not be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Jesus just saw this post from you! Have you not read the previous posts? The dna on the hoe that was not identified could also have shown the same results from any man dragged off the street! If your clinging to that then desperation has set in for you that has transformed into delusion.

As for no signs of rape does not mean there was no rape, your correct, that is possible, however we are not talking one single act of violence here but multiple and I will not go into details. For that it would be highly unlikely to not have signs and thats why the UK report is so relevant along with Dr Pornthips report.

1st point read my post again.

Also there is DNA on the hoe that could or could NOT ! be one of the B2 but it is not a full profile, so the defense only proved the prosecution right. as they have never claimed there was DNA from the suspects on the hoe.

Second point

again thats for the prosecution and defense to argue

So the judge cannot place any credence to that DNA matching the B2 because it does not. So why do you feel the need to bring it up? But in one point you are correct, the prosecution never claimed there was DNA from the B2 on the hoe, they claimed there was NO DNA on the hoe, they have categorically been proved wrong.

"again thats for the prosecution and defense to argue "

So why do you bring this up if you make such a post and cannot back it up with a debate it.

A UK autopsy report and Thailands top forensics scientist have already testified on behalf of the argument. My trust goes with them rather than the RTP's version of events, your obviously does not.

I note you've been asked some questions by another poster, are you going to answer or deflect?

[Just1Voice]

Something I don't think anyone has brought up yet (correct me if I'm wrong), but if the B2 had used the hoe to attack David & Hanna, their dna would have been ALL OVER the handle. A tight grip and multiple swings of the hoe would have pretty much embedded their dna on it. However, if the B2 didn't do it, and little rich boy and his thug playmates did, and then the how was WASHED to remove their traces, then you have a whole different scenario.

Something else I'm wondering about is the crime scene photos. Ok, the cops plead "poverty" in not having enough money to print them out, but then flatly refused to give the defense a cd with the photos on it, and the judge allowed that! Come on people. In any civilized country, the judge would have ordered them to give it up.

I'm starting to agree with those who think it will be a guilty verdict, and then left to the Appeals Court, just to get this farce over and done with on their backyard.

[Aj Mick]

There is no doubt that the posters on this thread are passionate about what they believe in, and the vast majority of posters really want to see justice served.

There are just a handful of posters who are supporting the RTP case, whereas the majority see the case for what it is, and that is a prosecution case which has more holes in it than a colander, where crime scene contamination was rife, correct procedures were not followed with regards to the collection of evidence, evidence has gone missing and most damning of all is the fact that the UK coroners report disagrees with the Thai report, not to mention the fact that Thailand's own Dr Pornthip has criticised evidence/documentation provided by the RTP as being incomplete and having major corrections as well as basic errors.

Additionally, the fact that the prosecution does not have any "smoking gun" which they promised they would produce and the fact that they haven't, must raise serious doubts as to the veracity of their case.

Another puzzling aspect of this thread is the fact that it would appear that the posters who support the RTP case will actually come from countries (this is an assumption) where the rule of law is a major part of the functioning of that country and by and large corruption is minimal and the police are trustworthy.

So for them to conveniently disregard the fact that if this case were being presented in one of their home countries, it would never have made it to court, or it would have been thrown out very early on in the piece. In that case one has to ask oneself why they are taking the line that they are………there have to be other motives in this.

Now this is something that I don't want to think about, but has been bugging me particularly over the last few days, and that is that it is entirely possible despite everything that has been said and the major flaws which have been pointed out in the RTP case, that the two Burmese guys will be found guilty.

And this will not be because they are guilty but because Thailand has "followed its true nature" in as much as it has to be remembered that this country worships wealth, no matter how it has been accrued, power and status and will do anything to "save face" (yes, anything).

To assist with the above, corruption is rife and the RTP have been found to be the most corrupt agency in Thailand (as reported by the Office of the Ombudsman, Thailand) so when you bring everything together, with wealthy families, money, police chiefs and generals needing to save face because of their statements and the fact that this is indeed a Third World country with regards to justice, a guilty verdict is really to be expected.

Remember that whether or not they committed the crime has absolutely nothing to do with a guilty verdict, it is just the way that Thailand operates, as sickening and despicable as it is.

I fear that this is exactly what is going to happen. The judges in Samui will be far too scared of all the pooyai involved to acquit based on the prosecution's utterly incoherent case. In addition, throwing out the police forensic evidence, the only thing that connects to the 2B to one victim (but not to the other) as clearly falsified would rock the foundation of Thailand's forensic system, whereby the police are allowed to do all the forensics themselves without independent verification, except in a very few cases where limited evidence has been reluctantly given to Dr Pornthip's dept for re-testing. For the Samui judges the line of least resistance is to kick the can down the road and leave the decision to the appellate court or the supreme court. This gives more time for foreign media to lose interest in the case and for the defendants to mysteriously die in prison, as well rendering it even more difficult to apprehend and prosecute the real murderers.

Unfortunately, although we have seen some good, soundly reasoned judgments from Thai courts (such as the recent Phuketwan case), there have been a few appalling judgements resulting in miscarriages of justice….. that have been publicised by the press. One suspects that there a a good few more that have not done so because, for one reason or another, they have not been newsworthy, or not allowed to have been so.

Hopefully the court has seen sense, thus pass the only really sensible judgment on the Burmese lads in the rape and murder case; not guilty.

However, it could well behove them, for one reason or another, to find the lads guilty, and effectively pass the case on to higher courts for appeal. Thus the whole charade all over again, with all the expense, and time it takes. From the point off view of the RTP and their paymasters (official and otherwise) that would be no problem. Their patsies remain locked up and the real culprits, who they are protecting, carry on their merry way.

In the end it becomes a battle of attrition. If public interest moves on and the Burmese lads run out of resources, they will have difficulty in mounting any appeal. If they do, moving through the court system would take time, again playing into the hands of the real culprits. The longer the heat is kept off them, the less likely they are to ever face justice.

Lets hope the defence can nail it in this time. The Burmese lads can then be unshackled, and deported on some petty immigration irregularity…. To what future, who knows?

[AGareth2]

if found not guilty

the police can appeal

i think

[sambum]

Semen DNA Evidence: Claims and counter claims

Right from the start of this case, the RTP supporters have (correctly) indicated that the key evidence is alleged DNA matches of the Burmese kids with semen samples allegedly found during the autopsy on Hannah. Below, I try to summarize the various statements that have been made about the semen samples, DNA tests, and supporting documentation to evaluate the credibility of that evidence.

First Issue : What is the evidence that a rape occurred?

• The Thai autopsy report states that three semen samples were found. The report further states that there were injuries on the Hannah's body that were consistent with sexual assault. To the best of my knowledge, there is no photographic evidence to back up these statements.
• Dr Pornthip, head of Thailand's Central Institute of Forensic Science (CIFS) and generally accepted as Thailand's leading forensic specialist, testified in court that, based on the photographic evidence of the body that is available to her (admittedly not comprehensive) there are no injuries typical of violent sexual assault.

  The RTP supporters have countered this by saying rape is possible without typical signs (TRUE), semen found proves rape (TRUE ONLY if semen really was found, AND various other conditions are satisfied), and Dr Pornthip supported the purchase of worthless airport scanners (IRRELEVANT).

• The defense has passed copies of the report of the UK postmortem (carried out by a Home Office pathologist) to the judges and prosecution. The report is apparently 400 pages long with full photographic evidence of its findings. The report comes to the same conclusion as Dr Pornthip that injuries typical of sexual assault were not present, and directly contradicts important findings in the Thai autopsy report, raising great doubts over that report's credibility.

  The RTP supporters have countered this by saying rape is possible without typical signs (TRUE but does not explain why the Thai report says there were), semen found proves rape (TRUE ONLY if semen really was found, AND various other conditions are satisfied), the credentials of the UK Home Office Pathologist have not been established, and the UK Home Office Pathologist's report cannot be accepted as valid evidence unless he is willing to travel to Thailand and testify as to its contents in person (DESPERATE : are they really claiming the photos are faked; if so, show us the Thai autopsy photos that prove this).

Second Issue : Where are the samples?

(Background: to understand the statements below, it is important to understand what Replicated DNA is. A small quantity of the original Reference Sample is put through a process called PCR. To simplify, this creates large amounts of DNA restricted to sequences that are highly variable between individuals. This is call Replicated DNA. However, there is no way one can know the origin of the Replicated DNA. Unlike the original Reference Sample, one cannot distinguish semen from a hair follicle or blood. Only small amounts of the source material are needed for PCR, and it is generally accepted practice to retain some of the Reference Sample for potential future retesting.)

• The RTP has repeatedly made statements that Reference Samples (in particular, semen samples) are lost or more usually, "used up". This is an inexplicable breach of normal forensic procedure.
• Pol. Lt. Col. Kewalee stated that '"all" genetic material tested in the lab is replicated and saved for at least one year'. This sounds good until one realizes that she is referring to the Replicated DNA from the PCR process. Replicated DNA degrades much faster than the DNA in the Reference Sample and, as said, the type of the original sample cannot be determined.
• The defense, who had strenuously argued for retesting of the Reference Samples (especially the semen samples) were initially happy to hear this, as (like pretty much everyone else) they misunderstood what was really available.
• The RTP said they would provide the CIFS Replicated DNA for retesting, and say where it came from. Understandably, the defense elected against retesting under those conditions. However, attempts were made by RTP supporters to portray this as doubts over the defendants' innocence.
• RTP supporters contest the claims above, stating that, although some prosecution witnesses said the Reference Samples were "used up", others implied they were not. In particular, Pol Lt Col Kewalee's statement that Replicated DNA was kept did not preclude the continued existence of one or more Reference Samples.
• The original existence of the DNA samples, its collection, testing, and disposal or current location should be available via documentation called 'Chain of Custody'.of which more later.

Third Issue : Wrong people involved

• Thailand's Central Institute of Forensic Science was specifically established to provide quality forensic testing, independent of the police investigative team, and promote confidence in Thailand's justice system.
• In a high profile case like this, one would have expected the CIFS to be heavily involved. In fact, until they were contacted by the defense and asked to independently evaluate forensic issues, they were kept completely out of the case. The police did all testing themselves in house. Besides the issue of quality of the testing, there are obvious questions about independence.

Fourth Issue : Inadequate Documentation

Given that the RTP was doing all evidence collection and testing themselves, with no independent oversight, impeccable records keeping and transparency was a must.

• The defense has been requesting full autopsy results, including photos, and chains of custody of Reference Samples and DNA tests for many months. Up until the trial stated in July, the RTP could argue privacy concerns prevented them from complying. Since then, they have been ordered by the judges to hand the information over, but claim budget constraints mean they cannot comply.
• What little the defense or CIFS has been given has been described as incomplete, riddled with obvious errors and sometimes modified later.
• A high regarded foreign expert witness, in Thailand specifically to pass judgment on the documentation of the Reference Samples and DNA tests has been unable even to testify because the defense have been given so little to analyze.
• RTP supporters variously claim that the defense has everything available to the prosecution, that the defense failed to ask for it, that the deficiencies are minor and do not detract from the overall results, and that the defense is nitpicking because they cannot prove the DNA testing was not done correctly.

Corrections welcome

Thanks a lot for this great post clearly presented, must have taken a lot of time to write it, appreciate that.

If there is one post that deserves to be pinned for future reference, that's the one (along with the one explaining clearly DNA testing and what a partial match means -nothing-).

I will quote it in the future to support what I say and to make it resurface.

Thanks again.

And "budget restraints" regarding the (photographic) evidence!

[Dogmatix]

Something I don't think anyone has brought up yet (correct me if I'm wrong), but if the B2 had used the hoe to attack David & Hanna, their dna would have been ALL OVER the handle. A tight grip and multiple swings of the hoe would have pretty much embedded their dna on it. However, if the B2 didn't do it, and little rich boy and his thug playmates did, and then the how was WASHED to remove their traces, then you have a whole different scenario.

Something else I'm wondering about is the crime scene photos. Ok, the cops plead "poverty" in not having enough money to print them out, but then flatly refused to give the defense a cd with the photos on it, and the judge allowed that! Come on people. In any civilized country, the judge would have ordered them to give it up.

I'm starting to agree with those who think it will be a guilty verdict, and then left to the Appeals Court, just to get this farce over and done with on their backyard.

They will also hope that Andy Hall and Lawyer Nakorn will not stay the course for the many years it would take to reach the Supreme Court.

[Aj Mick]

if found not guilty

the police can appeal

i think

I think you may be right. Either way it keeps the heat off those who should be feeling it.

[AGareth2]

funny the rtp had 3 million for a reward

[sambum]

The thing is, if we consider the mistakes and missing elements individually they probably are rarely enough to dismiss the case on their own, but as a whole, the accumulation of these gives a more than reasonable doubt, and that is what is needed in a death penalty case (or any other).

So focusing on one detail to say it is irrelevant and doesn't prove innocence is misleading, we need to keep looking at the big picture.

Key words being "reasonable doubt". Does that apply to Thai law?

[thailandchilli]

Something I don't think anyone has brought up yet (correct me if I'm wrong), but if the B2 had used the hoe to attack David & Hanna, their dna would have been ALL OVER the handle. A tight grip and multiple swings of the hoe would have pretty much embedded their dna on it. However, if the B2 didn't do it, and little rich boy and his thug playmates did, and then the how was WASHED to remove their traces, then you have a whole different scenario.

Something else I'm wondering about is the crime scene photos. Ok, the cops plead "poverty" in not having enough money to print them out, but then flatly refused to give the defense a cd with the photos on it, and the judge allowed that! Come on people. In any civilized country, the judge would have ordered them to give it up.

I'm starting to agree with those who think it will be a guilty verdict, and then left to the Appeals Court, just to get this farce over and done with on their backyard.

They will also hope that Andy Hall and Lawyer Nakorn will not stay the course for the many years it would take to reach the Supreme Court.

Yes this is true and a real possibility, however lets not resign ourselves just yet that some form of justice however little will not be found in the judgement. While finding the real perps is unlikely for the justice of the victims at least its a possibility that another 2 very likely innocent lives can be saved from the death penalty.

[metisdead]

Another post containing a link to another site that contains another forum has been removed.

A post containing a link to another site that contains another forum has been removed:

13) You will not post links to other Thailand forums, or forums which could reasonably be construed as competition to Thaivisa.com or its sponsors.

[docshock13]

As others have pointed out, regardless of the verdict the accused will likely languish in jail for many years due to the right of the prosecution to appeal a not guilty verdict.

And if I am not mistaken, if an appeals court upholds a not guilty verdict the prosecution can then appeal the judgment of the appellate court at the supreme court level (if I am wrong about this, please advise).

If the supreme court upholds both the original not guilty verdict and the appellate courts decision, the accused will be old men before they are released.

Given that this trial is allowed to continue given the evidence (or lack thereof) presented by the prosecution, perjury by prosecution witnesses and the clear obstruction of justice committed by both the prosecution and RTP, sadly I feel a guilty verdict is to be expected unless the defense can produce something that will completely blow the lid off the case.

Sadly, it is clear that demonstrating reasonable doubt does not apply to this case--the defence having to prove innocence instead of the prosecution having to prove guilt.

It is all bass ackwards.

[sambum]

It is hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that:

- Hannah was not raped, since the Home Office pathologist found nothing consistent with that. Therefore Thai police cannot have found any semen traces in her body.

- Police took DNA saliva samples from the 2B and divided each into two parts: one labelled semen sample and the other labelled saliva sample.

If this is the case, it is very easy to understand why police have:

- Failed to provide the semen samples for independent retesting, claiming they were all 'used up'.

- Failed to provide documentation relating to DNA collection, testing and the chain of custody.

- Failed to provide copies of their crime scene photographs, citing the pathetic excuse of lack of budget to print them.

- Claimed to have 'Lost' Hannah's clothing.

- Failed to test the hoe.

- Didn't even attempt to explain how David's wounds could have been inflicted with the blade of the hoe, as they claimed.

- Provided only limited CCTV footage.

- Used illegal stateless immigrants who are totally illiterate in both Thai and Burmese and have only a limited verbal command of both languages as official translators.

- Etc, etc.

Some good points which certain people are bound to trivialise! Just one comment regarding your first point - Hannah's body may have contained semen, but that does not mean she was raped. Perhaps you are implying that there was NO semen, so the police took saliva samples and divided them into 2 sets and called one of them "Semen"?

[Bung]

Theres more on trial here than those two Burmese guys.

A guilty version = tow the line and justice in Thailand carries on as before.

Not guilty = Signs that justice in Thailand is changing for the better.

Im reminded of when the media was questioning the authorities on the dissapearance of the malaysian airlines flight.

They were also caught out, flustered and shocked that the worlds media had the nerve to question them. Its an cultural thing in asia that authority is never questioned. They are used to being able to sit back and come up with whatever story suits there purpose and expect the public to accept it without question.

No jury, no media, no note taking, keep it in house behind closed doors. Keep the accused locked up for a year or more, send them in shackled then the impression of guilt and loss of interest makes a conviction a few lines of press at best. With any luck they will catch a life threatening disease and it then become a lot easier.

Its what we are seeing here. Whether the judges are willing to step up to the plate we'll have to see. I think it will be as some posters have said. Kick it up to he appeals court. That's the easiest way for them and they are clear of any scrutiny from either side.

When i think of how many poor souls are banged up in Thailand without any real justice it makes me sick. There are plenty. Asia is not a place to seek justice when you have rich and powerful people opposing you.

I truly hope i am never faced with that situation in Thailand. It never ends well.

[Fat Haggis]

It is hard to avoid coming to the conclusion that:

- Hannah was not raped, since the Home Office pathologist found nothing consistent with that. Therefore Thai police cannot have found any semen traces in her body.

- Police took DNA saliva samples from the 2B and divided each into two parts: one labelled semen sample and the other labelled saliva sample.

If this is the case, it is very easy to understand why police have:

- Failed to provide the semen samples for independent retesting, claiming they were all 'used up'.

- Failed to provide documentation relating to DNA collection, testing and the chain of custody.

- Failed to provide copies of their crime scene photographs, citing the pathetic excuse of lack of budget to print them.

- Claimed to have 'Lost' Hannah's clothing.

- Failed to test the hoe.

- Didn't even attempt to explain how David's wounds could have been inflicted with the blade of the hoe, as they claimed.

- Provided only limited CCTV footage.

- Used illegal stateless immigrants who are totally illiterate in both Thai and Burmese and have only a limited verbal command of both languages as official translators.

- Etc, etc.

Some good points which certain people are bound to trivialise! Just one comment regarding your first point - Hannah's body may have contained semen, but that does not mean she was raped. Perhaps you are implying that there was NO semen, so the police took saliva samples and divided them into 2 sets and called one of them "Semen"?

Unfortunately we only have the word of the Thai coroner there was semen taken, however that coroners report has been noted as having discrepancies from the report the UK coroner took.

One of my questions is in regards to the toxicology results, if they contained traces of nicotine, to support the RTP theory that the victims shared a smoke with the accused before they allegedly raped and murdered her, no traces would certainly blow that theory out of the water too, again questioning RTP motives to fabricate such a scenario.

if there are traces of nicotine in her blood, and in her lungs, it may very well be that Hannah was a secret smoker, but this is something her absent friends should have been able to confirm or deny right from the off.

[Dogmatix]

An interesting point raised by Andy Hall is the role of the UK Foreign and Commonwealth Office and police in this case. I assume that the police sent out to Thailand were experienced investigators, not numbskulls. In that case, they should have seen immediately that their Thai counterparts had done a particularly shoddy investigation job and must have had their suspicions that the results were being deliberately fudged. Yet the FCO, after presumably examining the UK police report and hopefully interviewing them in person, apparently gave the victims' families the impression that the investigation was sound and manipulated them to make statements in support of the dodgy Thai police investigation, suggesting they believed the 2B were guilty. An alternative interpretation is that the UK police were indeed intellectually challenged and didn't see anything wrong with the Thai investigation, which would raise serious questions about they conduct investigations at home. However, the most likely scenario is that they did figure that the investigation was shady but were instructed to make the report very bland and not mention any of their misgivings 'in the public interest', as a result of intervention by the FCO. Whichever way it was, it was totally inexcusable for the FCO to pander to Thailand by trying to influence the outcome of a capital murder trial and the FCO should be make accountable for this.

Then there is the case of various British police forces conducting investigations in the UK on behalf of Thai police at British taxpayers' expense, in order to try to give them evidence that would help build the prosecution case in a capital murder trial, which is illegal under UK and EU protocols. This serious offence was exacerbated by the fact that UK police forces had the gall to sign a confidentiality agreement with Thai police, which guaranteed that any evidence collected by UK police that might have been helpful to the defendants would automatically be suppressed.

[thailandchilli]

Here's another report stating lipstick found on one of the cigg butts which backs up the earlier reports of Hannah's dna found on one of the butts:

One cigarette has lipstick mark. DNA of two people were found in the second cigarette and the DNA of a third person was found in the third cigarette butt. http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/dna-tests-match-suspects-british-tourists-murder

I think the report of Hannah's DNA found on the butt could well be true. However since this then did not fit in with the case against the B2 it was dropped quickly and never mentioned again.

I find it very strange that not only do we have the dna evidence allegedly found in/on the victim with no complete chain of custody and the cigarette butts magically disappearing then this is further evidence of a complete fit up. Currently we have no verified dna evidence in this case at all aside from both the victims on the hoe.

[happy Joe]

For my part I don't agree in any way by conspiracy theory has enclose two innocent to protect the real culprits.

However I perceive clearly the reasons that have taken the investigators do not spread the scabrous details of this case. Unfortunately lounge detectives have not accepted this discretion and they stir a big shit that will ultimately engulf them.

[CharlieH]

As previous warning issued in this thread.

A Post making personal remarks has been removed and warning issued to that member.

[thailandchilli]

For my part I don't agree in any way by conspiracy theory has enclose two innocent to protect the real culprits.

However I perceive clearly the reasons that have taken the investigators do not spread the scabrous details of this case. Unfortunately lounge detectives have not accepted this discretion and they stir a big shit that will ultimately engulf them.

Oh I see, a conspiracy theory that must now have the UK coroner, Dr Pornthip, Jane Taupin, numerous human rights organizations, defense team and international media all colluding together.