How to handle a R.E transaction without being ripped off?

[bostonhomer]

My Thai friend (born there) has owned her property for several years outright with all paperwork etc..and wants to sell.

From my understanding, she only gets to list the property exclusively with only one agent (6 month contract)?

How does she prevent the agent from just sitting on the contract and doing very little to promote sale? Just collecting listings from people trying to sell and waiting for someone to buy? and they get their cut. Or, the other angle, doing nothing and saying I can't sell at this price so you must lower it, and then back door sale it to a friend or family member on the cheap?

For you folks out there, who have sold their property....how does a person go about selling their property without setting themselves up from being ripped off, or being taken advantage of?

I have no idea how Real Estate sales take place and the system vs here in the states.

I guess the bottom line is how the hell does a person sell their property at the same time improving the odds your not being ripped off?

1) Do you get a lawyer from a reputable bank to handle all legal paperwork, appraisal, and with the bank acting as the escrow company?

2) Or do you have to find a professional reputable appraiser to get the correct value, as it contains several dwellings, in order to get the fair market value,,,,comps etc (do those even exist).

Note: This is several Rai of property, kinda in a rural area of Ban Phe... so comps???

3) Can she, should she list with several R.E. companies at the same time...as I don't believe there is a MLS in Thailand, so how does one R.E agent get the word out...limited exposure.

With so many angles being played in Thailand and elsewhere, I'm just looking for the safest way for the deal to happen and her not getting ripped off.

After reading all the R.E. issues over time here on this forum, one has to be on guard.

Any insight from the folks who have sold property in Thailand is appreciated.

Thanks, Bostonhomer

[LukKrueng]

Real estate agents make money only if they can sell, so there is no point for then just to sit on any property and not do anything. There is no law that limit you to only one agent as far as I know. You can let as many agents as you want and also list the property in the classified section of newspapers / websites if you want. The one that brings the buyer is the one that gets the commission. however, if an agent introduces a buyer, you can't close the deal with that buyer directly and cut off the agent without paying their commission (which is usually 3% unless agreed otherwise)

[KittenKong]

She can list the property with as many agents as she wants. Up to her to do it though. Commission rates are 100% negotiable. If the property is at all desirable and reasonably priced then she should advertise it herself and will probably be much more successful than any agent will be.

There are no escrow services or proper valuations here as you may know them from the West.

It is common for agents to add a lot onto the asking price, either in an attempt to pocket the difference or to allow room for negotiation, though they dont seem to understand that both are counter-productive.

When dealing with property in Thailand you can expect to be lied to constantly by everyone connected in any way with the sale. Trust no one.

[dotpoom]

I have sold a few properties here. You can list your property with as many agents as you wish. I never had any problems about being ripped off (that I am aware of) as I nearly always met the purchaser and went to the Land Office together. You may not be in a position to do that. I will leave it to other people to advise you more on that.

PS. I am of the opinion that it might be better if indeed a property could only be listed with one Agent (like back home) under contract.

At home when I had my house for sale with a single Agent he really put 100% effort into working on getting it sold. With constant up-to-date progress reports. He had done his homework and nearly knew more about my house than I did myself and had all this info to lay out in front of interested parties. He would arrive at my house with a client himself and I would nearly end up buying the house myself off him he was so good at the "selling" bit.... And...his commission was one and a half % (5% here). None of the above is done here when you have it with many Agents. As you say, it goes on their website and that's the last you hear from them. They will not even bother to come and take pics. ...they want you to do that for them. They simply drive a customer to your house and let you (me) do all the selling while they stand around like Spare Pri- - s with their mouth shut. I have often used a different email address and pretended I was interested in purchasing a property (that were in my area and similar details to the one I was selling). 20% of the time I didn't even get a reply or when I did get a reply it would not include my property.

I could go on and on but I think I have drifted off your OP and am sorry about that, a raw nerve was touched with me.

[Geoffsilverfox]

I have sold a few houses, both through a local real estate agent, well, that is what he calls himself, and sold some independantly.

I would choose to sell on my own every time. I have got a higher selling price on 2 occasions, and not had to part with 3% commission, plus whatever extras are paid at the land office that I had no control over.

If you sell yourself, I would suggest plenty of good quality pictures, the fullest of descriptions together with what is of interest in the immediate vicinity, and don't forget measurements.

One thing I learnt..........you can sell anything if the price is right. But now is a buyers market.

[Naroge]

Different RE agents might have their own rules, but exclusivity and duration is normally negotiable. Getting a non-exclusive agreement is possible, but you have to weight this against how eager you believe the agent will be to actively do the sell.

The best way to reduce the risk of being cheated on the price is to do your own research. Your friend should travel around in the area(s) she want to sell and check what properties have recently been sold and what is up for sale, thereby establishing the actual market price. Yes, this takes some effort and time, but is the only way unless you already know a trustworthy agent that has the information.

[Steiner]

It is common for agents to add a lot onto the asking price, either in an attempt to pocket the difference or to allow room for negotiation, though they dont seem to understand that both are counter-productive.

When dealing with property in Thailand you can expect to be lied to constantly by everyone connected in any way with the sale. Trust no one.

Completely misinformed answer.

As an agent we have to talk owners down to a reasonable and competitive price every day.

If they don't accept a sensible valuation, we don't push the property as it would be a waste of our staff resources posting it on 40 3rd party websites in addition to our own websites and keeping those posts active.

They generally come back and accept our valuation, through gritted teeth, after a few months of sitting in a sales desert with an overpriced property.

Why would sensible business owners lie to people? We live in an age of transparency and reviews, childish and uninformed statement.

One is much more likely to be ripped off by a 'one time only owner sale,' than a sale involving a company and a lawyer.

People getting ripped off is usually the result of using freelancers in a misguided attempt to save money.

If people are prepared to buy property through a noodle seller or a part time whore, really what do they expect?

People need to ask themselves, would they buy property from the local hot dog guy or a hooker in their home country?

Stupid is as stupid does...

[KittenKong]

Real estate agents make money only if they can sell, so there is no point for then just to sit on any property and not do anything.

The point is that there are hundreds of times more properties for sale here than there are buyers. So most agents end up listing thousands of properties but making little effort to actually sell them as they know that any sale that does happen will be by luck rather than as a result of any effort that they have made. Their innate laziness encourages this.

[bostonhomer]

Thanks guys for the quick responses.

Lots to take in and be able to give her sound advice, as she will be in Thailand soon and I'll be back in the states.

On one side, you have to find a responsible agent(s) who's not afraid to work, and is straight up about things.

Vs. Selling it through the newspaper with the chance of being ripped off?

I know she has looked at local sales, but hard to match comps as the size of her property with units on it...no comps really.

I figure, if possible... for her to find an agent(s) set a commission rate, duration of contract and let the best agent win, bringing a buyer to the table?

As far as replacing the escrow companies that we have here in the states, who act as a middle man, I guess you need to have a R.E. lawyer/bank to hold the deed, and money, and be the middle man?

Is that how it gets done? Keeping everything above board.

As you can tell, I don't have a clue of how things are done in Thailand, and would hate to see this nice lady get played.

Thanks again for the info.

[KittenKong]

Completely misinformed answer.

As an agent we have to talk owners down to a reasonable and competitive price every day.

If they don't accept a sensible valuation, we don't push the property as it would be a waste of our staff resources posting it on 40 3rd party websites in addition to our own websites and keeping those posts active.

They generally come back and accept our valuation, through gritted teeth, after a few months of sitting in a sales desert with an overpriced property.

Why would sensible business owners lie to people? We live in an age of transparency and reviews, childish and uninformed statement.

One is much more likely to be ripped off by a 'one time only owner sale,' than a sale involving a company and a lawyer.

People getting ripped off is usually the result of using freelancers in a misguided attempt to save money.

If people are prepared to buy property through a noodle seller or a part time whore, really what do they expect?

People need to ask themselves, would they buy property from the local hot dog guy or a hooker in their home country?

Stupid is as stupid does...

You must be the shining light exception that proves the rule, though of course I wasnt really expecting any agents to agree with me.

Why would a sensible business owner lie? Probably because most business owners here are not very sensible in the first place, and secondly they would prefer to make a fast buck by deception than make a slow buck by honest effort.

As for "transparency", there is none at all in the Thai property market. It is one of the most opaque and poorly regulated that I have ever come across.

Dealing with part-time whores? I don't have any personal experience with that but I suspect that it's preferable to dealing with the full-time whores that inhabit many real estate agents' offices.

[KittenKong]

I figure, if possible... for her to find an agent(s) set a commission rate, duration of contract and let the best agent win, bringing a buyer to the table?

As far as replacing the escrow companies that we have here in the states, who act as a middle man, I guess you need to have a R.E. lawyer/bank to hold the deed, and money, and be the middle man?

Several people have mentioned exclusive contracts and contract durations, but where I am this is uncommon. Most listings here are done through many agencies with no specific arrangements.

The general procedure in Thailand is for the buyer and seller to go to the Land Office together. The transfer taxes are paid, the Land Office does the transfer and the buyer hands over a cashier's cheque (or, dont laugh, a big envelope of cash - this really happens). Lawyers are not often involved, though it does all rather depend on the type of property and the value and the type of ownership.

Sellers often verify the validity of the cashier's cheque in advance. Buyers often like to check both sides of the chanote (title deed) in advance.

Trust no one.

I dont know how effective doing your own newspaper advertising would be. I suppose it all depends on the type of property and who the likely buyers are. Online advertising via dedicated portals may be more effective and cheaper.

[Naroge]

Thanks guys for the quick responses.

Lots to take in and be able to give her sound advice, as she will be in Thailand soon and I'll be back in the states.

On one side, you have to find a responsible agent(s) who's not afraid to work, and is straight up about things.

Vs. Selling it through the newspaper with the chance of being ripped off?

I know she has looked at local sales, but hard to match comps as the size of her property with units on it...no comps really.

I figure, if possible... for her to find an agent(s) set a commission rate, duration of contract and let the best agent win, bringing a buyer to the table?

As far as replacing the escrow companies that we have here in the states, who act as a middle man, I guess you need to have a R.E. lawyer/bank to hold the deed, and money, and be the middle man?

Is that how it gets done? Keeping everything above board.

As you can tell, I don't have a clue of how things are done in Thailand, and would hate to see this nice lady get played.

Thanks again for the info.

Why would you be ripped off by selling through a newspaper? In this case you are in 100% control of the whole sales process. So as long as you agree with the buyers offered price you cannot be cheated.

[williamgeorgeallen]

I have bought and sold a couple houses. I tried everything, very hard to sell anything in Thailand. I tried several realestate agencies without success. ended up selling both houses on bahtnsold website. I used a reputable lawyer pattayasolicitors near tukcom. no risk from what I can see.

[how241]

I figure, if possible... for her to find an agent(s) set a commission rate, duration of contract and let the best agent win, bringing a buyer to the table?

As far as replacing the escrow companies that we have here in the states, who act as a middle man, I guess you need to have a R.E. lawyer/bank to hold the deed, and money, and be the middle man?

Several people have mentioned exclusive contracts and contract durations, but where I am this is uncommon. Most listings here are done through many agencies with no specific arrangements.

The general procedure in Thailand is for the buyer and seller to go to the Land Office together. The transfer taxes are paid, the Land Office does the transfer and the buyer hands over a cashier's cheque (or, dont laugh, a big envelope of cash - this really happens). Lawyers are not often involved, though it does all rather depend on the type of property and the value and the type of ownership.

Sellers often verify the validity of the cashier's cheque in advance. Buyers often like to check both sides of the chanote (title deed) in advance.

Trust no one.

I dont know how effective doing your own newspaper advertising would be. I suppose it all depends on the type of property and who the likely buyers are. Online advertising via dedicated portals may be more effective and cheaper.

+1...Do everything at the land office.

[mankondang]

It is common for agents to add a lot onto the asking price, either in an attempt to pocket the difference or to allow room for negotiation, though they dont seem to understand that both are counter-productive.

When dealing with property in Thailand you can expect to be lied to constantly by everyone connected in any way with the sale. Trust no one.

Completely misinformed answer.

As an agent we have to talk owners down to a reasonable and competitive price every day.

If they don't accept a sensible valuation, we don't push the property as it would be a waste of our staff resources posting it on 40 3rd party websites in addition to our own websites and keeping those posts active.

They generally come back and accept our valuation, through gritted teeth, after a few months of sitting in a sales desert with an overpriced property.

Why would sensible business owners lie to people? We live in an age of transparency and reviews, childish and uninformed statement.

One is much more likely to be ripped off by a 'one time only owner sale,' than a sale involving a company and a lawyer.

People getting ripped off is usually the result of using freelancers in a misguided attempt to save money.

If people are prepared to buy property through a noodle seller or a part time whore, really what do they expect?

People need to ask themselves, would they buy property from the local hot dog guy or a hooker in their home country?

Stupid is as stupid does...

You may be a honest farang R E agent, but not all are. I am associated with a long drawn out court case involving a farang RE agent who lied to a farang buyer. So the OP needs to know all the possible tricks and traps that may lay ahead. With your RE sales experience it may be a good idea if you could advise us all of some of these possible tricks and traps that your "competing" farang and other RE agents may lead us into, and what we can do to avoid them. Thanking you in anticipation.

[mrfaroukh]

I feel the market is not so good to buy or sell any property. The prices are falling and probably everyone is waiting to see what is going to happen. I seen property price in Pattaya near Big C Extra going down from 7 Million to 5.6 and even someone ready to sell for 3.6 for quick sale (It had cost him at least 4 million).

Now in your case you can probably sell it through multiple agents. But for quick sale you should consider dropping the price. You should give some incentive to the agent for trying to sell your property. Give him additional few percent if he sell it withing certain time limit. Good luck

[nithisa78]

Honest people can't get ripped off.

[KittenKong]

Honest people can't get ripped off.

If only that were true.

[ggt]

For you folks out there, who have sold their property....how does a person go about selling their property without setting themselves up from being ripped off, or being taken advantage of?

Generally speaking, it is very difficult not to be taken advantage of in the Thai real estate market...many Thais and ex-pats are expert at handling the DEAL to their personal benefit...

One must check and double check all transactions...get details...ask for explanations...if something smells fishy...it probably is...

I would love to give you a glowing report...as having rented, bought and sold property here...the pitfalls are numerous...can not be too careful...

Good Luck!

[blackcab]

Honest people can't get ripped off.

I know several cases in Thailand that prove you wrong. In the smallest example the buyer had $500,000 stolen from them by a solicitor they had known well over a decade.

In the other cases the amounts stolen/defrauded were in the range of millions of dollars.

Every one of these people used agents/solicitors/nominees.

I have yet to hear of someone being ripped off after going to the land office and doing the deal face to face with the vendor.

[swissie]

How come. that KittenKong's comments remain unanswered and not followed up by additional questioning. Post's # 3,8,10,11,18. The man knows what he is talking about.

Rather would potential buyers rely on "Real-estate Brokers" that only charge a commission of 3%

I have maintained routine-contacts with Real Estate Brokers (Thai/Farang) during the last 16 years. The "Tricks of the Trade" are therefore known to me. With regard to Foreign buyers, it makes my stomach turn.

The future looks bright for foreign investors. Right ? Easy to buy, hard to sell. = Investors paradise.

Cheers.

[bostonhomer]

Wow! So much to digest.

From reading all of the above she really must be on her toes with so many angles going on. If/when she does get to sell to someone, the deal is done at the land office...thank you.

Sellers often verify the validity of the cashier's cheque in advance. How does she do that?

Never dealt with a "land office" so sorry for my ignorance.

Here in the states....a lot of cashier check scams going on.

One trick behind cashier’s check fraud is that fact that the payee’s (buyer) bank "credits" the seller’s account "before" the funds have actually arrived from the paying bank.

Looks good? Like the funds have cleared and everything is OK.

But there is a difference in seeing the dollars "credited" and actually having the dollars.

To avoid this scam, can the "Land Office" act as the intermediary to ensure that the actual funds have been deposited into the sellers account before handing over the documents.

Not quite sure how this all works, and with the land office etc...so different, but will Google it.

Hopefully with all the input from you guys, I/we can get the formula for the best way from sale to closure so all parties are covered, and at the same time, minimizing our risks?

Bostohomer

[KittenKong]

Sellers often verify the validity of the cashier's cheque in advance. How does she do that?

Ask for a photocopy of the cheque from the buyer. Go to the issuing bank with the photocopy. Ask them if it is OK.

[blackcab]

Wow! So much to digest.

From reading all of the above she really must be on her toes with so many angles going on. If/when she does get to sell to someone, the deal is done at the land office...thank you.

Sellers often verify the validity of the cashier's cheque in advance. How does she do that?

Never dealt with a "land office" so sorry for my ignorance.

Here in the states....a lot of cashier check scams going on.

One trick behind cashiers check fraud is that fact that the payees (buyer) bank "credits" the sellers account "before" the funds have actually arrived from the paying bank.

Looks good? Like the funds have cleared and everything is OK.

But there is a difference in seeing the dollars "credited" and actually having the dollars.

To avoid this scam, can the "Land Office" act as the intermediary to ensure that the actual funds have been deposited into the sellers account before handing over the documents.

Not quite sure how this all works, and with the land office etc...so different, but will Google it.

Hopefully with all the input from you guys, I/we can get the formula for the best way from sale to closure so all parties are covered, and at the same time, minimizing our risks?

Bostohomer

No. The Land Office won't act as a financial intermediary. I have never heard of a cashier's cheque on the sale of land being fraudulent in any country, because the buyer will never get the benefit of their deception. It's not like a fraudster could quickly pack up the land and run away with it. I'm sure there are some fools who have done it somewhere though.

How much is the land worth? If it's a few million just ask for cash.

I understand that you are cautious and that you want the best outcome, however remember that a standard land sale is very straightforward.

Buyer and seller go to land office with deed, payment, ID cards. Pay taxes and fees, then make payment/transfer deed. That's it.

[KittenKong]

I have never heard of a cashier's cheque on the sale of land being fraudulent in any country, because the buyer will never get the benefit of their deception. It's not like a fraudster could quickly pack up the land and run away with it. I'm sure there are some fools who have done it somewhere though.

Unlikely, maybe, but I can imagine a situation here where someone uses a fake cashier's cheque for a property purchase and immediately takes the chanote to a loan shark or bank and raises a loan on the strength of it.

Some people here will do the most extraordinary and stupid things to get money.

[BkkLifeA]

"I have never heard of a cashier's cheque on the sale of land being fraudulent in any country, because the buyer will never get the benefit of their deception. It's not like a fraudster could quickly pack up the land and run away with it. I'm sure there are some fools who have done it somewhere though."

The cheque is maybe valid, but can bounce. Saw following case 1 year ago @huahin

Senario:

Old guy (UK) wants to sell the land he and his Thai wife had owned for over 20 years, (she had passed away a couple of years earlier) land value low/mid xx Mil Baht (prime location) a company wants to buy it. 2 Mil cash the rest via cheque (cheque on name of company) They came with all sorts of company registration papers, payed up capital papers ect (8-9 zero's). To give the cheque and company behind it credibility, the people where also very smooth talkers...

But company which would have bought the land had never been really in business. (scam alert...)

Thankfully, the old bloke also thought it was a scam, as the people who wanted to buy it where to much pushing for the deal, and i had the feeling that they where over paying a bit for the land. But all the Thai people around him where drooled with the money he would get, and really thought the buyer where honest people..... go figure.

My thinking and also probably the thinking from the old English bloke, was that the cheque would bounce. In that case the company owns the land, and it will be very hard to prosecute a company and will take ages (as you dont know of any debts the company has.. ect)

Be carefull !

Edited September 26, 2015 by BkkLifeA

[blackcab]

A cautionary tape indeed, but in that case it wasn't a cashier's cheque - it was a cheque drawn on a current account. I would never advise accepting a personal or business cheque as payment for land.

[HampiK]

When you create a cahsier cheque.. the money is gone from your account on the second of writing the cheque. So the money is garanteed.

A cashier cheque is like real money...

[hhgz]

Your Thai girlfriend knows everything about how to complete a real estate transaction, and you should have nothing to do with it. She's trying to make you feel sorry for her, and the THB only goes from you to her.

[KittenKong]

When you create a cahsier cheque.. the money is gone from your account on the second of writing the cheque. So the money is garanteed.

A cashier cheque is like real money...

Only if the cheque itself is real and not a forgery.