'Playing dead' isn't playing it right

[jayboy]

The significance of Thaksin ( we know what kind of a man he is) is not that he is a champion of democracy.His significance is that for whatever purpose ( no doubt self serving) he let democracy loose.That is why the non elected elites hate him.To quote that over used but nevertheless apt phrase, he let the genie out of the bottle and no undemocratic regime can ever cram it back again.

[MZurf]

More from the yellow rag that supported the illegal suppression of voting by Suthep's thugs.

Have you forgotten the red democracy schools and local canvassers for the red's etc.,

- They conducted many hate speech sessions in which the local, some quite naive folks, were told lies and untruths, and had to listen again and again to deliberately doctored audio tapes.

- They ensured any opposition parties were, through threats and intimidation, not allowed to hold rallies, give speeches etc., in their areas.

- And in most cases locals would have been too afraid to attend anyway.

Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. This is about an article in The Nation today, not what the Shins/Reds did way back when in the bad old days when people actually had the burdensome task of voting.

Oh great, another forget everything that happened in the past post. Inconvenient to actually address the issues that got us where we are, much better to take pot shots. Remember in 2010, before the army had to step in, Abhisit negotiated face to face with red shirts, promised an election in 3 months, not good enough for them, they stepped up the bombings instead. Seems they weren't all that eager to vote then.

As I said:

"Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. "

[elviajero]

"The Shinawatras are tainted, and the more Thaksin attempts to attach his family name to "democracy", the more difficult it will be for Thailand to become a true democracy. Everyone wants to get back to democratic rule, but the mere mention of his name makes too many people cringe."

The sooner the PTP sever links with Thaksin the better for everyone. His family are now a liability and IMO the PTP will have more success at the next election without TS's next proxy.

[MZurf]

Have you forgotten the red democracy schools and local canvassers for the red's etc.,

- They conducted many hate speech sessions in which the local, some quite naive folks, were told lies and untruths, and had to listen again and again to deliberately doctored audio tapes.

- They ensured any opposition parties were, through threats and intimidation, not allowed to hold rallies, give speeches etc., in their areas.

- And in most cases locals would have been too afraid to attend anyway.

Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. This is about an article in The Nation today, not what the Shins/Reds did way back when in the bad old days when people actually had the burdensome task of voting.

Oh great, another forget everything that happened in the past post. Inconvenient to actually address the issues that got us where we are, much better to take pot shots. Remember in 2010, before the army had to step in, Abhisit negotiated face to face with red shirts, promised an election in 3 months, not good enough for them, they stepped up the bombings instead. Seems they weren't all that eager to vote then.

I do agree that that was a HUGE strategic error by the reds and I said so at the time.

But we are where we are no point keep referencing back.

Prayut has been in power 18 months and lied about holding elections and lied about 'no coup' and so, for me his tenure is built on NO mandate and lies.

I was distantly hoping, wishing and nearly praying that although I detest coups and junta's that he might be fair. Bring reconciliation, hold talks with ALL sides and bring the people with him. He has done none of those three things and is busy designing a charter/constitution that will be a choice of ANY government as long as it's yellow.

"I was distantly hoping, wishing and nearly praying that although I detest coups and junta's that he might be fair. Bring reconciliation, hold talks with ALL sides and bring the people with him. He has done none of those three things and is busy designing a charter/constitution that will be a choice of ANY government as long as it's yellow."

Amen, but try telling that to the junta lovers and all you get in return is the same old "But, but, but..Thaksin" argument." It's like talking to my dim, 4 year old nephew.

[jcsmith]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

QFT. I find it impossible to believe that reasonably educated people can look at the evidence and not see that. Junta apologists will constantly point to the Shinawatras as though somehow their level of corruption is worse than an unelected government siezing power and suppressing freedom of speech... But what about the previous 17 coups?

Edited September 26, 2015 by jcsmith

[scorecard]

Thaksin advising his lieutenants to "play dead" means that Thailand's vicious cycle is sure to continue...

This reporter is so far off base he is clueless. The cycle will continue no matter what Thaksin says or does or even if he and his entire family were no longer on this earth. The problems will continue because the problems are far deeper than one family. The Bangkok elite or yellow shirts just use Thaksin as an excuse. If he were gone they would find something else to justify their taking over the country even though they are a minority.

You might like to remember that there are countless examples of rural poor and low income, red supporters etc., who have somehow become the village headman etc., and suddenly their behaviors change and they become the elite.

[scorecard]

"The Shinawatras are tainted, and the more Thaksin attempts to attach his family name to "democracy", the more difficult it will be for Thailand to become a true democracy. Everyone wants to get back to democratic rule, but the mere mention of his name makes too many people cringe."

The sooner the PTP sever links with Thaksin the better for everyone. His family are now a liability and IMO the PTP will have more success at the next election without TS's next proxy.

Well lets' look at this a bit deeper.

The pt / it's members etc., is not really a party at all, it's nothing more than a gang of scaly members of the 'get real rich real quick club' owned and directed and totally controlled by the club owner 'the paymaster' who needs their names to get enough 'votes' to control the country.

The pt has no real manifesto and 99% of the club members would be incapable of any structured discussion to create a manifesto and 99% are simply not interested anyway. Their only interest is gaining access to the trough.

[scorecard]

The military were politically active well before Thaksin did so. They blame him for the last 10 or more years, who do they blame for the previous 60 years? Thaksin also, because black magic told them he was coming?

The military are the biggest problem and they way they have imposed their views on the country has caused most of the problems present today and the attitude where the elite believe they are above any law.

QFT. I find it impossible to believe that reasonably educated people can look at the evidence and not see that. Junta apologists will constantly point to the Shinawatras as though somehow their level of corruption is worse than an unelected government siezing power and suppressing freedom of speech... But what about the previous 17 coups?

So what you really mean is that because other people have not been convicted for corruption then nobody should be convicted for corruption.

[ramrod711]

Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. This is about an article in The Nation today, not what the Shins/Reds did way back when in the bad old days when people actually had the burdensome task of voting.

Oh great, another forget everything that happened in the past post. Inconvenient to actually address the issues that got us where we are, much better to take pot shots. Remember in 2010, before the army had to step in, Abhisit negotiated face to face with red shirts, promised an election in 3 months, not good enough for them, they stepped up the bombings instead. Seems they weren't all that eager to vote then.

As I said:

"Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. "

As you always say, repeating endlessly, mindlessly, the same old mantra. Try to dredge up a fact or something to make your posts worth looking at.

[473geo]

Thaksin advising his lieutenants to "play dead" means that Thailand's vicious cycle is sure to continue...

This reporter is so far off base he is clueless. The cycle will continue no matter what Thaksin says or does or even if he and his entire family were no longer on this earth. The problems will continue because the problems are far deeper than one family. The Bangkok elite or yellow shirts just use Thaksin as an excuse. If he were gone they would find something else to justify their taking over the country even though they are a minority.

You might like to remember that there are countless examples of rural poor and low income, red supporters etc., who have somehow become the village headman etc., and suddenly their behaviors change and they become the elite.

The head man in the village where my family live is elected, and easily removed at the next election, as there is always opposition - if the headman are upgrading it is with the knowledge and blessing of the other villagers, who perhaps await their turn, or appreciate the way the village is funded and run - a strange concept though this may be to some

[scorecard]

The significance of Thaksin ( we know what kind of a man he is) is not that he is a champion of democracy.His significance is that for whatever purpose ( no doubt self serving) he let democracy loose.That is why the non elected elites hate him.To quote that over used but nevertheless apt phrase, he let the genie out of the bottle and no undemocratic regime can ever cram it back again.

What crap.

[MZurf]

Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. This is about an article in The Nation today, not what the Shins/Reds did way back when in the bad old days when people actually had the burdensome task of voting.

Oh great, another forget everything that happened in the past post. Inconvenient to actually address the issues that got us where we are, much better to take pot shots. Remember in 2010, before the army had to step in, Abhisit negotiated face to face with red shirts, promised an election in 3 months, not good enough for them, they stepped up the bombings instead. Seems they weren't all that eager to vote then.

As I said:

"Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. "

As you always say, repeating endlessly, mindlessly, the same old mantra. Try to dredge up a fact or something to make your posts worth looking at.

"Try to dredge up a fact or something..."

Pretty rich coming from one of the junta lovers who base their whole justifications of a military takeover on that one "argument"! Facts certainly don't work in your favor so mindlessly invoking the name of the bogeyman in Dubai seems to be the only thing you are able to do.

[SheungWan]

Thaksin advising his lieutenants to "play dead" means that Thailand's vicious cycle is sure to continue...

This reporter is so far off base he is clueless. The cycle will continue no matter what Thaksin says or does or even if he and his entire family were no longer on this earth. The problems will continue because the problems are far deeper than one family. The Bangkok elite or yellow shirts just use Thaksin as an excuse. If he were gone they would find something else to justify their taking over the country even though they are a minority.

Hello! Its the 'Its Not About Thaksin' team back in town!

[jayboy]

The significance of Thaksin ( we know what kind of a man he is) is not that he is a champion of democracy.His significance is that for whatever purpose ( no doubt self serving) he let democracy loose.That is why the non elected elites hate him.To quote that over used but nevertheless apt phrase, he let the genie out of the bottle and no undemocratic regime can ever cram it back again.

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

[phoenixdoglover]

The O.P. is an excellent example of "Shoot the Messenger".

Fair enough. A hit piece on Thaksin. Maybe he deserves that, and more.

But the headline should read, "Thaksin Bad , Dont Let Him Return".

Edited September 26, 2015 by phoenixdoglover

[ramrod711]

Oh great, another forget everything that happened in the past post. Inconvenient to actually address the issues that got us where we are, much better to take pot shots. Remember in 2010, before the army had to step in, Abhisit negotiated face to face with red shirts, promised an election in 3 months, not good enough for them, they stepped up the bombings instead. Seems they weren't all that eager to vote then.

As I said:

"Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. "

As you always say, repeating endlessly, mindlessly, the same old mantra. Try to dredge up a fact or something to make your posts worth looking at.

"Try to dredge up a fact or something..."

Pretty rich coming from one of the junta lovers who base their whole justifications of a military takeover on that one "argument"! Facts certainly don't work in your favor so mindlessly invoking the name of the bogeyman in Dubai seems to be the only thing you are able to do.

Ooooh, the dreaded junta lover jibe, what a pathetic one trick pony. Not that I care what you say, or think, but I'm not a junta lover, I'm a Thaksin hater. Try to keep that in mind, when you're calling me names.

[FangFerang]

More from the yellow rag that supported the illegal suppression of voting by Suthep's thugs.

Oh please. Give it a rest. You are not helping in the slightest.

And you are not contributing at all.

[seajae]

thaksin is in it for thaksin and his family, not the people of Thailand, he simply uses them to get what he wants. What this country needs is a party that actually wants the country to advance, to treat all citizens the same whether they are poor farmers or the hi-so's but most of all enforce the laws on everyone. All they have here are parties that do what is good for them and puts money into their holdings, doesnt matter if they are red or yellows, they are all the same. Thaksin is a big part of the problem , he finances the reds and their terrorist minions while suthep does the same with his mob. They need to get rid of both these groups before this country can advance, as long as there are red and yellows in each others face nothing can improve. An independent party made up of ordinary people, not the reach elitists that run the current parties would be a great start, too many people with their fingers in the pie in the current ones, if they did this we might finally see some democracy returning as not one can currently promote it, they are all in it for themselves and screw the people.

[2fishin2]

thaksin is in it for thaksin and his family, not the people of Thailand, he simply uses them to get what he wants. What this country needs is a party that actually wants the country to advance, to treat all citizens the same whether they are poor farmers or the hi-so's but most of all enforce the laws on everyone. All they have here are parties that do what is good for them and puts money into their holdings, doesnt matter if they are red or yellows, they are all the same. Thaksin is a big part of the problem , he finances the reds and their terrorist minions while suthep does the same with his mob. They need to get rid of both these groups before this country can advance, as long as there are red and yellows in each others face nothing can improve. An independent party made up of ordinary people, not the reach elitists that run the current parties would be a great start, too many people with their fingers in the pie in the current ones, if they did this we might finally see some democracy returning as not one can currently promote it, they are all in it for themselves and screw the people.

Do you really believe this? What first hand knowledge do you have of any of this you speak? Have you sat down and talked to Thaksin? Have you asked the Thai population to see this is what they want?

No you havent, you are just "opinionating"

[khunken]

The significance of Thaksin ( we know what kind of a man he is) is not that he is a champion of democracy.His significance is that for whatever purpose ( no doubt self serving) he let democracy loose.That is why the non elected elites hate him.To quote that over used but nevertheless apt phrase, he let the genie out of the bottle and no undemocratic regime can ever cram it back again.

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

Thaksin let democracy loose. Thet's certainly crap.

There was no less democracy Thai style under Chatachai Choonavan, Banharn, Chuan & Chavalit all before Thaksin. All corrupt governments in one way or another but none of them took over the RTP, placed family members as head of the army & police.

None of them took corruption to the level that Thaksin did. None of them changed laws to benefit their own companies. Thaksin was never a democrat, he even stated that democracy wasn't his goal.

He certainly was a clever politician by identifying Isan as an undeveloped region and virtually taking (buying?) all Chavalit's Isan politicians and their top-down control over the districts & villages. I'll give him credit for the health scheme but most of the other schemes were to benefit his party members, business cronies & his own family, including the Damapongs.

He is now yesterday's man and the Op is correct in saying so. There is no doubt that Thailand needs a left-of-centre party that looks to the interests of the less well off, not just in Isan, but in the whole country. That party should be modelled on the Democrat party as, even if you hate them, they are internally the only party that votes for their leader & other senior positions.

Any new iteration of PTP needs to completely break relations with Thaksin and incorporate non-mercenary & non-violent members of the UDD - those with an ideology.

Edited September 26, 2015 by khunken

[jayboy]

The significance of Thaksin ( we know what kind of a man he is) is not that he is a champion of democracy.His significance is that for whatever purpose ( no doubt self serving) he let democracy loose.That is why the non elected elites hate him.To quote that over used but nevertheless apt phrase, he let the genie out of the bottle and no undemocratic regime can ever cram it back again.

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

Thaksin let democracy loose. Thet's certainly crap.

There was no less democracy Thai style under Chatachai Choonavan, Banharn, Chuan & Chavalit all before Thaksin. All corrupt governments in one way or another but none of them took over the RTP, placed family members as head of the army & police.

None of them took corruption to the level that Thaksin did. None of them changed laws to benefit their own companies. Thaksin was never a democrat, he even stated that democracy wasn't his goal.

He certainly was a clever politician by identifying Isan as an undeveloped region and virtually taking (buying?) all Chavalit's Isan politicians and their top-down control over the districts & villages. I'll give him credit for the health scheme but most of the other schemes were to benefit his party members, business cronies & his own family, including the Damapongs.

He is now yesterday's man and the Op is correct in saying so. There is no doubt that Thailand needs a left-of-centre party that looks to the interests of the less well off, not just in Isan, but in the whole country. That party should be modelled on the Democrat party as, even if you hate them, they are internally the only party that votes for their leader & other senior positions.

Any new iteration of PTP needs to completely break relations with Thaksin and incorporate non-mercenary & non-violent members of the UDD - those with an ideology.

You are unwittingly making my point for me.I was not making a case for Thaksin's virtues, merely pointing out his catalytic effect.Without his involvement people like you wouldn't be bleating now about the need of a party to represent the people.Laughably you think the Democrats could fit the bill.They were a genuine national party once but now ...

[waldroj]

As previous posts clearly demonstrate, Thaksin is still very much a divisive AND influential figure in Thailand, despised by many, yet adored by others.

Even in exile, he still commands the attention of the junta and the media, and their efforts to weaken him only seem to make him stronger.

The pathetic editorial piece of propaganda (which is the topic of this forum) highlights just why he remains so popular to many. Statements such as “Leaders of the pro-Thaksin movement have … been put under strict surveillance”, and “Other pro-Thaksin politicians have either been legally threatened or sent fleeing” are an insult to free-thinking people.

This obsession with Thaksin (and his family) has polarised the nation far too long!

I believe that the junta are incapable of breaking the spell he seems to have on Thailand. Despite what the little general said back in July last year about national reconciliation, this just has not happened, and the country still has not found a way to free itself of protracted political conflict.

Whilst there is probably little doubt that Thaksin is guilty of numerous serious offences, the desire to bring him to justice has achieved little more than strengthen his popularity in the eyes of the poor! The irony is that there seems to be quite a few other individuals who are guilty of committing serious crimes and corruption, yet their actions attract far less attention.

I am certainly not a fan of Thaksin, however it appears to me that the junta is losing its battle to limit his influence, and all Thais continue to suffer because of it. That said, the little general should rethink his current strategy of attitude adjustment.

If he is truly serious about reconciliation for this battle-weary nation (and that’s a big ‘if’), he should be taking every opportunity to engage pro-Thaksin leaders and other parties, to discuss ways to move forward, with or without Thaksin.

[2fishin2]

Bring Thaksin back and let the people have their own say. Thailand is not the general's, it belongs to the people.

[phoenixdoglover]

As previous posts clearly demonstrate, Thaksin is still very much a divisive AND influential figure in Thailand, despised by many, yet adored by others.

Even in exile, he still commands the attention of the junta and the media, and their efforts to weaken him only seem to make him stronger.

The pathetic editorial piece of propaganda (which is the topic of this forum) highlights just why he remains so popular to many. Statements such as “Leaders of the pro-Thaksin movement have … been put under strict surveillance”, and “Other pro-Thaksin politicians have either been legally threatened or sent fleeing” are an insult to free-thinking people.

This obsession with Thaksin (and his family) has polarised the nation far too long!

I believe that the junta are incapable of breaking the spell he seems to have on Thailand. Despite what the little general said back in July last year about national reconciliation, this just has not happened, and the country still has not found a way to free itself of protracted political conflict.

Whilst there is probably little doubt that Thaksin is guilty of numerous serious offences, the desire to bring him to justice has achieved little more than strengthen his popularity in the eyes of the poor! The irony is that there seems to be quite a few other individuals who are guilty of committing serious crimes and corruption, yet their actions attract far less attention.

I am certainly not a fan of Thaksin, however it appears to me that the junta is losing its battle to limit his influence, and all Thais continue to suffer because of it. That said, the little general should rethink his current strategy of attitude adjustment.

If he is truly serious about reconciliation for this battle-weary nation (and that’s a big ‘if’), he should be taking every opportunity to engage pro-Thaksin leaders and other parties, to discuss ways to move forward, with or without Thaksin.

The leaders that will break the "Thaksin spell" are the ones who will offer the Thai people something better, not the ones who are fixated on tearing Thaksin down.

[MZurf]

As I said:

"Oh great, another "But, but, but....Thaksin" post. "

As you always say, repeating endlessly, mindlessly, the same old mantra. Try to dredge up a fact or something to make your posts worth looking at.

"Try to dredge up a fact or something..."

Pretty rich coming from one of the junta lovers who base their whole justifications of a military takeover on that one "argument"! Facts certainly don't work in your favor so mindlessly invoking the name of the bogeyman in Dubai seems to be the only thing you are able to do.

Ooooh, the dreaded junta lover jibe, what a pathetic one trick pony. Not that I care what you say, or think, but I'm not a junta lover, I'm a Thaksin hater. Try to keep that in mind, when you're calling me names.

"Not that I care what you say, or think..."

Then why do you reply to what I post???

[EnglishJohn]

Thai politics might be complicated in the detail because it is so full of lies and hypocrisy, but at the top level it is painfully simple.

The thing Thaksin and his ego want more than anything is to come back to Thailand as the leader of the country. He knows he will probably need a proxy as PM but he fully intends to be in charge.

The only way he can do it without going to jail is via amnesty. Everything is geared around that.

He still does not think the last attempt was wrong. He just thinks he went about it the wrong way. He will have a scheme already how he thinks he can get it through into law. Of course it will fail because he deludes himself as to the real situation. Just like Hitler did in his bunker.

His 'big stick' are his red-shirts. We saw how he is prepared to use them in the last protests, Just like the brown shirts for Hitler. If he tries to take power using them now, all the leaders will be locked up because the Army cannot be bought like the police are.

So he must wait until the Army are gone. Then it will start all over again.

Everything else is just detail to achieve the above. The actual country and it's people are secondary : it's clear to anyone willing to see that he does not give a damn about them.

Nothing will change until this man is removed from the picture and the Pheu-Thai/Red Shirt leaders have to decide what to do for themselves. They will flap around for a while but maybe someone can eventually emerge who actually wants to help the poor instead of just themselves.

[khunken]

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

Thaksin let democracy loose. Thet's certainly crap.

There was no less democracy Thai style under Chatachai Choonavan, Banharn, Chuan & Chavalit all before Thaksin. All corrupt governments in one way or another but none of them took over the RTP, placed family members as head of the army & police.

None of them took corruption to the level that Thaksin did. None of them changed laws to benefit their own companies. Thaksin was never a democrat, he even stated that democracy wasn't his goal.

He certainly was a clever politician by identifying Isan as an undeveloped region and virtually taking (buying?) all Chavalit's Isan politicians and their top-down control over the districts & villages. I'll give him credit for the health scheme but most of the other schemes were to benefit his party members, business cronies & his own family, including the Damapongs.

He is now yesterday's man and the Op is correct in saying so. There is no doubt that Thailand needs a left-of-centre party that looks to the interests of the less well off, not just in Isan, but in the whole country. That party should be modelled on the Democrat party as, even if you hate them, they are internally the only party that votes for their leader & other senior positions.

Any new iteration of PTP needs to completely break relations with Thaksin and incorporate non-mercenary & non-violent members of the UDD - those with an ideology.

You are unwittingly making my point for me.I was not making a case for Thaksin's virtues, merely pointing out his catalytic effect.Without his involvement people like you wouldn't be bleating now about the need of a party to represent the people.Laughably you think the Democrats could fit the bill.They were a genuine national party once but now ...

Read my post again - I didn't say that the Democrat party would fit any bill - a party modelled (in its structure) on the Democratic party is rather different.

BTW his catalytic effect was purely to split the country into pros & antis with violence like never before outside of bloody coups. Not a proud achievement. I have long (back into the 90's) felt that Thailand's politics had no ideology & it still hasn't as the UDD were solely created to violently support Thaksin, not the poor as some gullible individuals think.

[jayboy]

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

Thaksin let democracy loose. Thet's certainly crap.

There was no less democracy Thai style under Chatachai Choonavan, Banharn, Chuan & Chavalit all before Thaksin. All corrupt governments in one way or another but none of them took over the RTP, placed family members as head of the army & police.

None of them took corruption to the level that Thaksin did. None of them changed laws to benefit their own companies. Thaksin was never a democrat, he even stated that democracy wasn't his goal.

He certainly was a clever politician by identifying Isan as an undeveloped region and virtually taking (buying?) all Chavalit's Isan politicians and their top-down control over the districts & villages. I'll give him credit for the health scheme but most of the other schemes were to benefit his party members, business cronies & his own family, including the Damapongs.

He is now yesterday's man and the Op is correct in saying so. There is no doubt that Thailand needs a left-of-centre party that looks to the interests of the less well off, not just in Isan, but in the whole country. That party should be modelled on the Democrat party as, even if you hate them, they are internally the only party that votes for their leader & other senior positions.

Any new iteration of PTP needs to completely break relations with Thaksin and incorporate non-mercenary & non-violent members of the UDD - those with an ideology.

You are unwittingly making my point for me.I was not making a case for Thaksin's virtues, merely pointing out his catalytic effect.Without his involvement people like you wouldn't be bleating now about the need of a party to represent the people.Laughably you think the Democrats could fit the bill.They were a genuine national party once but now ...

Read my post again - I didn't say that the Democrat party would fit any bill - a party modelled (in its structure) on the Democratic party is rather different.

BTW his catalytic effect was purely to split the country into pros & antis with violence like never before outside of bloody coups. Not a proud achievement. I have long (back into the 90's) felt that Thailand's politics had no ideology & it still hasn't as the UDD were solely created to violently support Thaksin, not the poor as some gullible individuals think.

It doesn't matter what Thaksin's motives were.As a consequence of his influence the Thai majority has become thoroughly politicised.His intelligent opponents of course don't dispute this and in my view it's not really a subject up for debate.

It could be argued that as a result of Thailand's economic and social development this politicisation was an inevitable consequence, and all it took was a smart politician to grasp the implications and seize the opportunity.The long slow death rattle of the old elites is of course still with us, but their marginalisation is inevitable.

It could have been any charismatic and perceptive politician to be in the forefront here.It could indeed have been the Democrat Party before it abandoned its national mission.But it wasn't any of these.It was Thaksin.

[473geo]

Thai politics might be complicated in the detail because it is so full of lies and hypocrisy, but at the top level it is painfully simple.

The thing Thaksin and his ego want more than anything is to come back to Thailand as the leader of the country. He knows he will probably need a proxy as PM but he fully intends to be in charge.

The only way he can do it without going to jail is via amnesty. Everything is geared around that.

He still does not think the last attempt was wrong. He just thinks he went about it the wrong way. He will have a scheme already how he thinks he can get it through into law. Of course it will fail because he deludes himself as to the real situation. Just like Hitler did in his bunker.

His 'big stick' are his red-shirts. We saw how he is prepared to use them in the last protests, Just like the brown shirts for Hitler. If he tries to take power using them now, all the leaders will be locked up because the Army cannot be bought like the police are.

So he must wait until the Army are gone. Then it will start all over again.

Everything else is just detail to achieve the above. The actual country and it's people are secondary : it's clear to anyone willing to see that he does not give a damn about them.

Nothing will change until this man is removed from the picture and the Pheu-Thai/Red Shirt leaders have to decide what to do for themselves. They will flap around for a while but maybe someone can eventually emerge who actually wants to help the poor instead of just themselves.

I think the current PM is some distance ahead of you, there are some intelligent posts in this thread that point you in the right direction - there must be positive change to negate the desire to return any politicians who seek to restore their position for the benefit of themselves rather than the country.

To allow the situation to meander along with no positive change is simply unacceptable in the mission to return Thailand to happiness. The PM is aware of this requirement and must push along with the actions to make it happen, hence article 44 - but there is also a duty of care surrounding his actions that must not leave the Thai electorate without a voice and the ability to influence change where government departments fail to deliver.

[khunken]

What crap.

I am afraid that the convention remains that a difference of opinion needs to be supported by reasoned argument.Your kind of response in effect gives me a walkover.

Thaksin let democracy loose. Thet's certainly crap.

There was no less democracy Thai style under Chatachai Choonavan, Banharn, Chuan & Chavalit all before Thaksin. All corrupt governments in one way or another but none of them took over the RTP, placed family members as head of the army & police.

None of them took corruption to the level that Thaksin did. None of them changed laws to benefit their own companies. Thaksin was never a democrat, he even stated that democracy wasn't his goal.

He certainly was a clever politician by identifying Isan as an undeveloped region and virtually taking (buying?) all Chavalit's Isan politicians and their top-down control over the districts & villages. I'll give him credit for the health scheme but most of the other schemes were to benefit his party members, business cronies & his own family, including the Damapongs.

He is now yesterday's man and the Op is correct in saying so. There is no doubt that Thailand needs a left-of-centre party that looks to the interests of the less well off, not just in Isan, but in the whole country. That party should be modelled on the Democrat party as, even if you hate them, they are internally the only party that votes for their leader & other senior positions.

Any new iteration of PTP needs to completely break relations with Thaksin and incorporate non-mercenary & non-violent members of the UDD - those with an ideology.

You are unwittingly making my point for me.I was not making a case for Thaksin's virtues, merely pointing out his catalytic effect.Without his involvement people like you wouldn't be bleating now about the need of a party to represent the people.Laughably you think the Democrats could fit the bill.They were a genuine national party once but now ...

Read my post again - I didn't say that the Democrat party would fit any bill - a party modelled (in its structure) on the Democratic party is rather different.

BTW his catalytic effect was purely to split the country into pros & antis with violence like never before outside of bloody coups. Not a proud achievement. I have long (back into the 90's) felt that Thailand's politics had no ideology & it still hasn't as the UDD were solely created to violently support Thaksin, not the poor as some gullible individuals think.

It doesn't matter what Thaksin's motives were.As a consequence of his influence the Thai majority has become thoroughly politicised.His intelligent opponents of course don't dispute this and in my view it's not really a subject up for debate.

It could be argued that as a result of Thailand's economic and social development this politicisation was an inevitable consequence, and all it took was a smart politician to grasp the implications and seize the opportunity.The long slow death rattle of the old elites is of course still with us, but their marginalisation is inevitable.

It could have been any charismatic and perceptive politician to be in the forefront here.It could indeed have been the Democrat Party before it abandoned its national mission.But it wasn't any of these.It was Thaksin.

Actually it does matter what Thaksin's motives were & still are - power & enrichment. Thais have been politicised for decades and have voted in decent numbers in elections. The only difference since 2001 is that that politicisation is for or against Thaksin. And if you include vote buying, intimidation (red shirt villages for example), and brainwashing (2010 for example) it's not a very thoughtful politicisation.

The so-called elites. These are everywhere, within PTP & without, in Bangkok and locally throughout Thailand. Some are called influential people. I don't deny that there are those outside the scope of this debate. Pity though that some seem to view only one elite which tends to be used as a big stick to boost weak arguments.

In summary, no, Thaksin has not been any sort of catalyst for real change within Thailand. In truth he is a barrier to opening up the country politically & will continue to be so while he continues to interfere in its affairs.