Retirement Visa by any other name

[tropo]

I'm going to call it a "retirement visa" as long as I post on this forum................ ( etc )

One of the reasons I feel the proper term for your "extension of stay based on xxxxxxxx" is important follows:

On my first trip OUT of, then IN to, the country... AFTER... receiving my """"RETIREMENT VISA"""", I was filling out the forms to enter Thailand, on the form was VISA NUMBER. I filled in my """"Retirement VISA number"""", headed to passport control, for some reason the "look at passport and point you where to go person" pointed me to the Thai Only line. At the counter upon a 30 second inspection, I was told my """"VISA"""" number was wrong. The officer pointed to my MULTIPLE ENTRY PERMIT and told me this was my """"VISA""""number, and being the nice person he was, corrected my """"VISA"""" number on the slip, and entered the information in the computer. "Enjoy my stay"

I've never considered entering any other numbers on my TM6 than those on my re-entry permit number.

I also made it clear that "retirement visa" is used in an informal discussion. We do know it's an extension of stay based on retirement.

[mgjackson69]

The problem is that we don't "all know what they are talking about".

The term "retirement visa" is routinely used here for extensions based on retirement as well as Non Immigrant O-A visas and Non Immigrant O Visas, all of these having different rules and requirements. So when we have someone living here on an extension of stay saying he has a retirement visa and asking if he needs a re-entry permit if he wants to leave for a trip, the answer is 'yes'. But if no-one points out that he really has an extension, then someone else with a Non Immigrant O-A visa will think that he will also need a re-entry permit before leaving. Similarly, when someone asks about the requirements to obtain a retirement visa (but is talking about a Non Immigrant O-A visa), and is told that he can qualify with the equivalent of Baht 800k in a bank outside Thailand, then others who wants an extension will think that they can also qualify with funds in their home bank.. And when someone from Great Britain wants a one year multiple entry Non Immigrant O visa and is told that he needs to receive a government pension to qualify, then others will think that the same applies to the Non Immigrant O-A visa.

The above examples are not ones I have made up, but real life examples about people here on Thai Visa being confused about the rules because they mix up the rules and requirements between the different types of visas and extensions, all because people use the wrong terminology. And as you point out, embassies and Immigration are adding to that confusion. If everyone used the correct terms, then much of this confusion could be avoided.

Sophon

While I agree with all that is said, my point was. If we are having a conversation and I tell you that I am here on a Retirement Visa, are you going to correct me? Or do you understand what I am talking about. Are you telling me that I should say, I am here on a Non Immigrant O-A visa?

If we are having a conversation and you state that you are here on a Retirement Visa, I will ask you for clarification.

[stevenl]

OK, I'll give the complainers a BIG bone here.

If someone says something like, I've lived here 10 years and want to know about any changes at my office for renewing my retirement visa and people correct him and say you're not renewing your retirement visa, you're going for your next annual extension based on retirement I can understand that this looks like and might well be pedantic.

Because even though incorrect terminology was used, it is TOTALLY clear what situation the questioner is dealing with.

Yes, I am guilty of doing stuff like this.

But there is actually a reason that I do. Can't speak for others.

The reason is that lots of people other than OPs read this forum and by correcting, readers might learn the actual correct terminology which might help them understand their own situation better which may not be nearly that clear cut.

But obviously such correction was not necessary to deal with that sort of totally clear question.

But many or even most questions are not nearly that clear.

I know quite a few people living here 10+ years who are leaving the country on a regular basis to get a new non-immigrant B visa, since they don't meet the extension requirements.

In your example you mention 'retirement', but change that for 'work' and you have a very good reason why it is important to know if they're talking about extensions or visa and not pedantic at all: If someone says something like, I've lived here 10 years and want to know about any changes at my office for renewing my work visa and people correct him and say you're not renewing your work visa, you're going for your next annual extension based on business I can understand that this looks like and might well be pedantic.

[mommysboy]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

[Jingthing]

I'm with you - "RETIREMENT VISA" is an acceptable term.

No misunderstandings ensued (so far).

Define it then precisely. Acceptable term for WHAT as it's used for MULTIPLE things, very different things, as I've pointed out quite explicitly

[Jingthing]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Duh, dude!

This has been discussed so many times here.

That RETIREMENT stamp is on the EXTENSION ...

Note it does not say Retirement Visa.

You're right it doesn't say extension either, but that's what it's stamped on.

[mgjackson69]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Yours says "RETIREMENT", mine says "THAI WIFE" (or sometimes the Thai equivalent).

None of them are entitled "visa extension" because it is not a visa extension.

It is an Extension of Stay...in your case based on retirement, in my case based on marriage.

[elviajero]

I'm with you - "RETIREMENT VISA" is an acceptable term.

No misunderstandings ensued (so far).

Theres no problem calling a Visa issued on the basis of Retirement a Retirement Visa. Perfectly acceptable.

But calling an extension of stay based on retirement a Visa causes confusion/misunderstanding. If the person doesn't know the difference that's also no problem, but continuing to use the wrong term when knowing the difference seems odd to me.

Use Retirement Visa or Retirement Extension, it's not hard and helps the people helping to help.

[oncearugge]

OK, I'll give the complainers a BIG bone here.

If someone says something like, I've lived here 10 years and want to know about any changes at my office for renewing my retirement visa and people correct him and say you're not renewing your retirement visa, you're going for your next annual extension based on retirement I can understand that this looks like and might well be pedantic.

Because even though incorrect terminology was used, it is TOTALLY clear what situation the questioner is dealing with.

Yes, I am guilty of doing stuff like this.

But there is actually a reason that I do. Can't speak for others.

The reason is that lots of people other than OPs read this forum and by correcting, readers might learn the actual correct terminology which might help them understand their own situation better which may not be nearly that clear cut.

But obviously such correction was not necessary to deal with that sort of totally clear question.

But many or even most questions are not nearly that clear.

I know quite a few people living here 10+ years who are leaving the country on a regular basis to get a new non-immigrant B visa, since they don't meet the extension requirements.

In your example you mention 'retirement', but change that for 'work' and you have a very good reason why it is important to know if they're talking about extensions or visa and not pedantic at all: If someone says something like, I've lived here 10 years and want to know about any changes at my office for renewing my work visa and people correct him and say you're not renewing your work visa, you're going for your next annual extension based on business I can understand that this looks like and might well be pedantic.

If some asks about "renewing a visa" the correct response would be to inform the person that "visas" cannot be renewed.

[Jingthing]

I'm with you - "RETIREMENT VISA" is an acceptable term.

No misunderstandings ensued (so far).

Theres no problem calling a Visa issued on the basis of Retirement a Retirement Visa. Perfectly acceptable.

But calling an extension of stay based on retirement a Visa causes confusion/misunderstanding. If the person doesn't know the difference that's also no problem, but continuing to use the wrong term when knowing the difference seems odd to me.

Use Retirement Visa or Retirement Extension, it's not hard and helps the people helping to help.

Yes, but I think it's more useful to just say O-A visa for the OPTIONAL visa obtained abroad, that is technically not even a retirement visas, but actually a LONG STAY visa.

You don't actually need to be retired to get the O-A visa ... just meet the financial requirements and be over 50. Lots of non-retired people can show 800K baht in their home country and not be retired. For the O-A visa they never ask you to explicitly state you are retired ... but you can't legally work IN THAILAND.

That said, the O-A visa is the only thing that really is even close to being an ACTUAL retirement visa.

I do think it's fine to call an O-A visa a retirement visa but then we get the same problem because in real life retirement visa is seen to mean one of multiple things, including extensions, so why not be as clear as possible and just call the O-A an O-A?

A common misunderstanding newbies have is that the MUST get a retirement visa (closest actual thing is the O-A visa) before retiring in Thailand. But they don't. That's one path choice.

I think the most useful model for this is to present the goal of residing legally in Thailand with the status of a foreign retired person.

There is not one path or visa tool for this. That's the root of all the confusion we read here.

What are the different paths towards beginning that and once fully in the system (doing retirement extensions every year) how do you keep doing retirement extensions (dealing with any changes in the system).

It's important to say retirement extensions to differentiate the situation of people already in the system in Thailand and those seeking to get into the system.

Also of course there is also a minority of retired expats who never enter the retirement extension system. Instead they go for serial O-A visas obtained in home countries, as they can be stretched for stays of about two years.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[elviajero]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Of course not because you can't extend a Visa. A Visa has a 'enter before' date and a given number of entries. As soon as all the entries are used or the 'enter before' date reached the Visa is finished.

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

It says "retirement' because that is the basis that the extension was granted.

Exactly, you now have an "extension of stay permitted until...." granted on the basis of Retirement.

[tropo]

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

Question:

Every year when I get a retirement extension on my Non-O Visa, issued 5 years ago, I need to provide a photocopy of this visa... therefore it is still of use.

If I get a new passport, what exactly happens? Do they transfer a notation of the original Non-O visa to your new passport? Or must one provide a photocopy of the original Non-O visa from the old passport?

[mommysboy]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Duh, dude!

This has been discussed so many times here.

That RETIREMENT stamp is on the EXTENSION ...

Note it does not say Retirement Visa.

You're right it doesn't say extension either, but that's what it's stamped on.

Why the duh ?

That's what it says. It categorically does not say visa extension or extension of visa.

When all is said and done, that is what you walk out the office with.

[mommysboy]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Yours says "RETIREMENT", mine says "THAI WIFE" (or sometimes the Thai equivalent).

None of them are entitled "visa extension" because it is not a visa extension.

It is an Extension of Stay...in your case based on retirement, in my case based on marriage.

Read what I wrote it is not entitled " visa extension" or such like".

But to clarify it is not entitled "extension of stay" either.

The most pronounced thing on 2 of them is "RETIREMENT".

This is the key word.

If you and a few others can't understand that. Well what's the point!

[Jingthing]

It's an annual extension based on retirement. You know it is too so why keep playing this silly repetitive game? Just to be argumentative I am guessing.

[mommysboy]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Of course not because you can't extend a Visa. A Visa has a 'enter before' date and a given number of entries. As soon as all the entries are used or the 'enter before' date reached the Visa is finished.

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

It says "retirement' because that is the basis that the extension was granted.

Exactly, you now have an "extension of stay permitted until...." granted on the basis of Retirement.

But it doesn't say that. Simple.

[ubonjoe]

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

Question:

Every year when I get a retirement extension on my Non-O Visa, issued 5 years ago, I need to provide a photocopy of this visa... therefore it is still of use.

If I get a new passport, what exactly happens? Do they transfer a notation of the original Non-O visa to your new passport? Or must one provide a photocopy of the original Non-O visa from the old passport?

They want a copy of your non-o visa as proof you entered using a non immigrant visa. I think they also want a copy of the entry you did using that visa.

When you get a new passport they do a stamp that has spaces for them to write the info about your visa and your old passport number. They also transfer the entry stamp you got from the visa.

[mgjackson69]

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

Question:

Every year when I get a retirement extension on my Non-O Visa, issued 5 years ago, I need to provide a photocopy of this visa... therefore it is still of use.

If I get a new passport, what exactly happens? Do they transfer a notation of the original Non-O visa to your new passport? Or must one provide a photocopy of the original Non-O visa from the old passport?

My experience is the same...every extension of stay I have done (8 of them), Immigration has wanted a photocopy of the original Non-O visa.

My past 5 extensions have been in a new passport. There is no transfer or notation of the original Non-O visa in the new passport.

When I go to do my yearly extension, I take both the previous and current passport, as well as photocopies of the photo page and every page that has any sort of stamp or visa, from both passports.

[mommysboy]

It's an annual extension based on retirement. You know it is too so why keep playing this silly repetitive game? Just to be argumentative I am guessing.

I have learned this yes.

I honestly think most people would say you are being pedantic.

Just because I will not relent under criticism does not mean I am being silly, or argumentative.

On my passport, it says passport. Same, driving licence and numerous other documents here and there from various sources governmental or otherwise.

On the final stamp it really says nothing definitive. So people will call it what they think and retirement visa is about right.

[mgjackson69]

It's an annual extension based on retirement. You know it is too so why keep playing this silly repetitive game? Just to be argumentative I am guessing.

I have learned this yes.

I honestly think most people would say you are being pedantic.

Just because I will not relent under criticism does not mean I am being silly, or argumentative.

On my passport, it says passport. Same, driving licence and numerous other documents here and there from various sources governmental or otherwise.

On the final stamp it really says nothing definitive. So people will call it what they think and retirement visa is about right.

"Visa" is not right.

A visa gives you the right to attempt entry to a country. The Extension of Stay does not do that.

[Lite Beer]

It's an annual extension based on retirement. You know it is too so why keep playing this silly repetitive game? Just to be argumentative I am guessing.

On the final stamp it really says nothing definitive. So people will call it what they think and retirement visa is about right.

The problem being that it is wrong.

Keep arguing the toss when you know you are wrong is no help to anyone.

Especially people who are new to the world of Thailand's Immigration system and want a little help.

[Jingthing]

Again, the real point ON THIS FORUM of using correct distinctive terms for different elements of the retirement in Thailand legalization process is to make things as clear as possible for people seeking clear and precise advice. This forum isn't a BAR STOOL. It's serious business for a lot of people who really need clear advice.

Yet again as "retirement visa" is interpreted by so many people to cover multiple very different items, it just is NOT a precise enough term to use here in order to be as helpful as possible. Much more useful is to break things down into the actual items:

O-A visa

O visa (not O-A) obtained outside Thailand

O visa obtained as a CONVERSION done in Thailand

annual extensions based on retirement

Many people call ALL of these things retirement visas yet each one of them is different either in function or method to obtain.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[stoneyboy]

Again, the real point ON THIS FORUM of using correct distinctive terms for different elements of the retirement in Thailand legalization process is make things as clear as possible for people seeking clear and precise advice. This forum isn't a BAR STOOL. It's serious business for a lot of people who really need clear advice.

Is there not a pinned thread that could offer all the relative information a sort of idiots guide to the visa process and terminology.

That has to be the easiest option.

[Jingthing]

Again, the real point ON THIS FORUM of using correct distinctive terms for different elements of the retirement in Thailand legalization process is make things as clear as possible for people seeking clear and precise advice. This forum isn't a BAR STOOL. It's serious business for a lot of people who really need clear advice.

Is there not a pinned thread that could offer all the relative information a sort of idiots guide to the visa process and terminology.

That has to be the easiest option.

I don't know but in real life most people wouldn't read it, much less process it.

People come on here for some hand holding to help them process this information for their particular situation, and they usually get it, and it's free.

In the context of all the good that happens on the visa forum here, whining that sometimes things get too pedantic seems to me to be very PETTY.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Jingthing

[ubonjoe]

A off topic post meant to derail the topic has been removed.

The door is already more half way closed for this topic. It will be slammed closed when any bickering starts.

[slipperylobster]

This has to be the strangest thread I have read in a long time. Pretty much just trolling. I suggest if you want to call your extension of stay as "a retirement visa"...then best notify the Thai Embassy and the Thai Immigration Offices. They can rewrite all the terminology to suit your reluctance to admit that you are wrong.

Next time you get a lady..call her a boy...as well. Or if you like boys...call her a lady. Then...if all else fails, do the same thing you are doing when mixing terminology for visa and the seperate "extension of stay". Combine the two different terms and nobody knows what you have.

[OJAS]

If some asks about "renewing a visa" the correct response would be to inform the person that "visas" cannot be renewed.

The actual response which I have been sorely tempted to offer to anyone enquiring about how they can "renew their retirement visa" would be that the only course of action open to them would be to travel either to Vientiane or Penang for a fresh non-O visa or back to their home country for a fresh non-OA visa!

Had they used the correct terminology they would, of course, have been spared a wild goose-chase on my account at least!!

On a more serious note, I doubt very much whether terminological debates of this sort will go away until Thailand falls into line with the vast majority of other countries on this great planet of ours by issuing visas stating that the holder may enter the country from date A but must leave by date B (in place of the current crazy system under which date B = the final date by which the visa can be "used" in order to gain entry to the country for a subsequent period). This in turn could mean that immigration offices might then be in a position to issue actual visas (yes, VISAS, folks!) each year instead of extensions of stay.

All this would, of course, be dependent on fundamental revisions to the 1979 Immigration Act which I don't see happening any time soon, unfortunately.

Edited September 28, 2015 by OJAS

[elviajero]

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

Question:

Every year when I get a retirement extension on my Non-O Visa, issued 5 years ago, I need to provide a photocopy of this visa... therefore it is still of use.

If I get a new passport, what exactly happens? Do they transfer a notation of the original Non-O visa to your new passport? Or must one provide a photocopy of the original Non-O visa from the old passport?

My experience is the same...every extension of stay I have done (8 of them), Immigration has wanted a photocopy of the original Non-O visa.

My past 5 extensions have been in a new passport. There is no transfer or notation of the original Non-O visa in the new passport.

When I go to do my yearly extension, I take both the previous and current passport, as well as photocopies of the photo page and every page that has any sort of stamp or visa, from both passports.

The criteria for getting an extension of stay is that you were granted a Non-Imm Visa. It doesn't matter that the Visa is used/void, but only that it gave you the stay in the country that you are extending.

An IO needs to be satisfied that you had a Non-Imm Visa and a photocopy of the original is the easiest way to do that, but If you lost the passport they wouldn't issue a new Visa as it not necessary, and wouldn't affect you getting your annual extensions.

The alien:

1. (1) Must have been granted a non-immigrant visa (NON-IM).

[elviajero]

I have just had a look at the stamps in my passport, and none of them are entitled " visa extension" or such like.

2 of them have "RETIREMENT" in block capitals.

My latest stamp from Surat Thani starts with the words "extension of stay permitted until.....".

Of course not because you can't extend a Visa. A Visa has a 'enter before' date and a given number of entries. As soon as all the entries are used or the 'enter before' date reached the Visa is finished.

You no longer have a Visa. If you got a new passport the old expired Visa would stay in the old passport because it's of no further use.

It says "retirement' because that is the basis that the extension was granted.

Exactly, you now have an "extension of stay permitted until...." granted on the basis of Retirement.

But it doesn't say that. Simple.

Ok. If it doesn't say retirement anywhere it's not important. You were granted the extension of the basis of retirement regardless. All that's important is the date you have to leave by or apply for another extension.

The reason for the extension is sometimes just a scribbled note in Thai.

[mommysboy]

It's an annual extension based on retirement. You know it is too so why keep playing this silly repetitive game? Just to be argumentative I am guessing.

On the final stamp it really says nothing definitive. So people will call it what they think and retirement visa is about right.

The problem being that it is wrong.

Keep arguing the toss when you know you are wrong is no help to anyone.

Especially people who are new to the world of Thailand's Immigration system and want a little help.

The problem being many newbies, perhaps most, call it a retirement visa, and the second problem being most reasonable people know that they are talking about retirement. What else are they talking about then, marriage, tourist, the price of eggs?

The other point is the people who come on the board are not well versed, if they were then they would not be coming on to the boards asking the question. They don't know how to explain the situation fully because it is a complicated area. Moreover as I have pointed out the final stamp is unclear which is critical. You would expect the stamp to be clearly titled, as it is with say a driving licence.

As i have said the simple legal term for something which is generally accepted as existing and valid, but which de facto does not exist is "putative". And the term retirement visa is so putative that even lawyers use it.

How you correct therm is up to you, but time and again all I see is advice garnered with sarcasm and simple moralism. I for one find it extremely annoying and at a loss as to know why such postings are tolerated. It drives people away. People want help not pedantry laced with simplistic moralism.