Thai universities 'struggling to climb up world rankings and be profitable'

[dcpo]

I work for one of the most prestigious Thai universities. One of the big things holding us back in world rankings is research output. Academics are not generally given enough time, resources or incentive to produce international standard research. The level of the academic staff is pretty good. Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities, and there are several members of staff who have attended elite institutions. Academic standards for the students are fairly low, in that in order to fail (and, despite what you may believe, students do fail and drop out here) people have to perform very poorly indeed. However, we take the courses seriously, we set exams that are reasonably difficult, and we make it very hard for students to cheat in them. It's not Cambridge or MIT, but if someone graduates from the faculty I teach at with a high GPA then they have, in my opinion, obtained a worthwhile qualification. Many of our students compete and do well in academic competitions which are by now means easy, and every year several of our graduates go to highly regarded foreign colleges for postgraduate study.

Why not name this better example?

Why don't you tell me what makes you an expert on the academic standards of Thai universities?

[Seastallion]

Maybe I missed something, but why would Universities need to be highly profitable ?

To build better research and learning facilities, to hire the best staff, to fund research, to give scholarship to good but poor students....

Those in turn will attract the best students....and so the cycle goes on.

[balo]

Thai universities are the best universities in the world.....in Thailand.

[DavisH]

Thai universities struggle to become internationally recognised because most of their staff cannot publish research in International journals. So there is a problem with both english and also the quality of the research. The culture of plagiarism then comes to light. It's much more difficult to get away with plagiarized work in english. Often, large chunks of english research is translated into Thai and published here. So to get international recognition, work needs to be published in english AND original research. And they both need to be spot-on. The research/critical thinking/problem solving culture needs to start in school. It is not easy to turn a mindless first year uni drone into a quality researcher in 4-5 years. So it's not even worth discussing universities until the quality of school leavers improves greatly.

[Kaalle]

Like Mcdonalds looking for Michelin stars.

[Loeilad]

I work for one of the most prestigious Thai universities. One of the big things holding us back in world rankings is research output. Academics are not generally given enough time, resources or incentive to produce international standard research. The level of the academic staff is pretty good. Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities, and there are several members of staff who have attended elite institutions. Academic standards for the students are fairly low, in that in order to fail (and, despite what you may believe, students do fail and drop out here) people have to perform very poorly indeed. However, we take the courses seriously, we set exams that are reasonably difficult, and we make it very hard for students to cheat in them. It's not Cambridge or MIT, but if someone graduates from the faculty I teach at with a high GPA then they have, in my opinion, obtained a worthwhile qualification. Many of our students compete and do well in academic competitions which are by now means easy, and every year several of our graduates go to highly regarded foreign colleges for postgraduate study.

"Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities," - which just about sums up the situation

Yes, Western universities are generally better, and much better for research in most areas. There is no denying that. I'm just addressing the idea that a lot of people seem to have that Thai universities are just Mickey Mouse diploma mills.

" we set exams that are reasonably difficult, and we make it very hard for students to cheat in them." - this hardly sounds like a comment that someone involved tertiary education would make......"hard exams"??? - no cheating.......as if it is the norm?

[Srikcir]

The good news with Thailand's low ranking universities is that the nation will never face a "brain drain" to its neighbors.

[RubbaJohnny]

Maybe I missed something, but why would Universities need to be highly profitable ?

I think perhaps the better word here might be "sustainable" in that a public institution must have the right balance between state/taxpayer funding, tuition/fees charged as well as other income streams like grant/endowment and alumni donations.

I don't think the goal of a state (public) institution should be profitability like a traditional for-profit corporate entity would be, but I do think that there are very much elements of good financial stewardship, fiscal planning and diversification of revenue streams involved too.

Best comment so far, of course this assumes competent folks, who didnt buy their own job ,zero nepotism,real exams and no corruption.

[Thai at Heart]

Well, they shouldn't be profit seeking should they. They should have to reinvest any profits back Into the university itself.....

[fang37]

Well, they shouldn't be profit seeking should they. They should have to reinvest any profits back Into the university itself.....

That is what they do.

Gym, tennis courts, swimming pool, staff house (pub). Then the dedicated staff need o/seas trips, sabbatical = additional holidays, self education which provides more salary & less teaching hours.

Definitely, no sexual activities - very unethical!

[Prbkk]

Thai academics are so poorly paid they need to moonlight in industry or at other universities just to survive.

[fang37]

Post #40.

I was referring to Australian tertiary education.

Observation of CNX universities - lecturing staff - poorly paid. Upper administration - much higher.

Teaching resources, lecture rooms & labs - poorly funded.

[DavisH]

The good news with Thailand's low ranking universities is that the nation will never face a "brain drain" to its neighbors.

Many of the best stud overseas, and a number of them remain there. A friend of the family is doing his PhD in electrical engineering at Princeton, though he did schooling in the Thai system (with a US BEng and Masters from Oxford thrown in). I seriously doubt he will be coming back to work for a paltry Thai academic salary. There are plenty of smart students here but they are dumbed down by the system.

[Loeilad]

The good news with Thailand's low ranking universities is that the nation will never face a "brain drain" to its neighbors.

Thailand IS experiencing a brain-drain.

The salaries for technically qualified people are so low that those with any sort of real qualification are leaving to find work abroad.

Where their talents are respected and not where they have to compete with incompetents who paid for their certificates and are employed by overpaid managers who happen to be their uncles....

[Craig krup]

Forget about world rankings - which are based on research publications - and aim for a German-style system. The academics should be civil servants, with lots of class contact and tons of work for the students, all of it tightly marked. The life sciences might be different, but for most subjects the behaviour that western league tables will force on you won't produce large numbers of literate and thoughtful students. What you'll get is loads of highly-paid social cripples with friends on editorial boards producing unreadable articles which nobody even attempts to decipher. Go US liberal arts college before you go aspiring British red brick.

[krdowney]

A few thoughts.

No, Thai universities are not good. There is a tradition in this country of discouraging free thought that runs deep, and academics in the past have been targeted by governments for speaking their mind. It creates a culture of silence. But the younger professors (say 40 and under) are not as silent as the ones before so there is hope so long as heavy pressure is not reapplied.

The educational environment in Thailand is very challenging and different from many of the developed states, Still, the job of a teacher is to take students from where they are to a greater level of knowledge. You can't do that if you start over their heads or the students will gain nothing. I have to learn this every semester as I have to balance challenging students to learn new skills and knowledge while still making it accessible to them. One has to teach like a hawk, swoop down and carry them upwards. We cannot change their primary training.

One can fail Thai students. I have before and I will again this semester by my estimation. Not all teachers do, but I've never been even reprimanded for it.

My colleagues have degrees from Stanford, Oxford, U Penn, Cal Berkeley, Nottingham, Wisconsin, Kyoto and god knows other good schools. Yes, I'm talking about the Thai's. They are smarter than me and I am proud to work with them. But they have the same problems as I do, you just have to teach the students starting from where they are, not where you want them to be.

Perhaps the biggest problem I find with Thai students is that they have no idea the difference in educational level between Thailand and the developed countries. But many find out as some of my recent graduates are starting this year at University of Amsterdam, Australian National University, Groningen, London School of Economics, Leiden and London School of Oriental and African Studies. They will struggle at first, but they will do okay I think.

It's not good here, but it's really not all bad.

Edited September 28, 2015 by krdowney

[PaPiPuPePo]

All Education should be provided free by the government.

Exactly, that was the meaning behind my earlier comment. I was actually dismayed if not surprised to see not only profitability but "high profitability" as a primary concern of the secondary education system.

AFAIC anything that improves society, like education, should not be denied to anyone. But just like the desirability to not die, that to improve oneself awakens the profit motive and if it's not regulated then as with sick- aka health-care it's subject to getting unaffordable for some or many. The U.S. is NOT the model for the pricing (as it arguably is in many ways for the quality) of higher education. But TIT it seems.

Edited September 28, 2015 by PaPiPuPePo

[Stradavarius37]

With all you professional consultants here and still the universities flounder? How is that even possible?

[farangmick]

Be a while yet before Oxbridge or the Ivy League Universities need to worry about Thailand poaching the best students.

[rubl]

Maybe I missed something, but why would Universities need to be highly profitable ?

To build better research and learning facilities, to hire the best staff, to fund research, to give scholarship to good but poor students....

Those in turn will attract the best students....and so the cycle goes on.

There's a limit to what people are able to pay for an education. To make education so expensive that only rich people and those lucky enough to get a grant can afford it seems somewhat undemocratic.

Even now we already have people complain about the unfairness with which places at Chulalongkorn University are allocated. Some upcountry Universities may not be able to finance proper educators because of this type of commercialisation of education by intellectuals.

[maidee]

woooooooooooooooooooooot ?

university has to be run like a profitable business ? not for EDUCATION

now you see the main problem in this country ...

MONEY, GREED, MONEY, GREED, ...

[tubby johnson]

I teach political theory and film appreciation at a so-called "traditional top 4" university in Bangkok, and I recognise these problems.

The pros are: students' eagerness to learn, intelligent colleagues, and no one reprimands me or tries to bribe/ plead/ threaten me if my students fail my subjects. The cons: students' indifference to any learning outside the curriculum, their aversion to books (so boring makmak), their obsession with their grades, and terrified reluctance to debate and think about topics in class. I once taught at a private "university" where these problems are rife.

Before they move on to study at our partner universities overseas, I explain to them the workings of the world outside Thailand: You do not beg the teachers for a passing grade, plagiarism may be okay in Thailand but gets you into deep trouble elsewhere, you should speak up and participate actively in class, expect to spend much more time on homework and various projects, you must make a sustained effort to improve your woeful English in order not to stand out like a sore thumb.

Alas, as long as the smug and venal Ministry of Education oversees Thailand's education standards, expect things to get much worse.

[Loeilad]

I teach political theory and film appreciation at a so-called "traditional top 4" university in Bangkok, and I recognise these problems.

The pros are: students' eagerness to learn, intelligent colleagues, and no one reprimands me or tries to bribe/ plead/ threaten me if my students fail my subjects. The cons: students' indifference to any learning outside the curriculum, their aversion to books (so boring makmak), their obsession with their grades, and terrified reluctance to debate and think about topics in class. I once taught at a private "university" where these problems are rife.

Before they move on to study at our partner universities overseas, I explain to them the workings of the world outside Thailand: You do not beg the teachers for a passing grade, plagiarism may be okay in Thailand but gets you into deep trouble elsewhere, you should speak up and participate actively in class, expect to spend much more time on homework and various projects, you must make a sustained effort to improve your woeful English in order not to stand out like a sore thumb.

Alas, as long as the smug and venal Ministry of Education oversees Thailand's education standards, expect things to get much worse.

just a look at the General's sayings on education is enough to make anyone shudder

[Craig krup]

I teach political theory and film appreciation at a so-called "traditional top 4" university in Bangkok, and I recognise these problems.

The pros are: students' eagerness to learn, intelligent colleagues, and no one reprimands me or tries to bribe/ plead/ threaten me if my students fail my subjects. The cons: students' indifference to any learning outside the curriculum, their aversion to books (so boring makmak), their obsession with their grades, and terrified reluctance to debate and think about topics in class. I once taught at a private "university" where these problems are rife.

Before they move on to study at our partner universities overseas, I explain to them the workings of the world outside Thailand: You do not beg the teachers for a passing grade, plagiarism may be okay in Thailand but gets you into deep trouble elsewhere, you should speak up and participate actively in class, expect to spend much more time on homework and various projects, you must make a sustained effort to improve your woeful English in order not to stand out like a sore thumb.

Alas, as long as the smug and venal Ministry of Education oversees Thailand's education standards, expect things to get much worse.

Political theory? I'm guessing Hobbes' Leviathan goes down a treat, but Locke's Second Treatise is a bit more problematic?

[selftaopath]

I work for one of the most prestigious Thai universities. One of the big things holding us back in world rankings is research output. Academics are not generally given enough time, resources or incentive to produce international standard research. The level of the academic staff is pretty good. Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities, and there are several members of staff who have attended elite institutions. Academic standards for the students are fairly low, in that in order to fail (and, despite what you may believe, students do fail and drop out here) people have to perform very poorly indeed. However, we take the courses seriously, we set exams that are reasonably difficult, and we make it very hard for students to cheat in them. It's not Cambridge or MIT, but if someone graduates from the faculty I teach at with a high GPA then they have, in my opinion, obtained a worthwhile qualification. Many of our students compete and do well in academic competitions which are by now means easy, and every year several of our graduates go to highly regarded foreign colleges for postgraduate study.

"Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities," - which just about sums up the situation

Yes, Western universities are generally better, and much better for research in most areas. There is no denying that. I'm just addressing the idea that a lot of people seem to have that Thai universities are just Mickey Mouse diploma mills.

I'm just addressing the idea that a lot of people seem to have that Thai universities are just Mickey Mouse diploma mills.

Well aren't they?

[tubby johnson]

I work for one of the most prestigious Thai universities. One of the big things holding us back in world rankings is research output. Academics are not generally given enough time, resources or incentive to produce international standard research. The level of the academic staff is pretty good. Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities, and there are several members of staff who have attended elite institutions. Academic standards for the students are fairly low, in that in order to fail (and, despite what you may believe, students do fail and drop out here) people have to perform very poorly indeed. However, we take the courses seriously, we set exams that are reasonably difficult, and we make it very hard for students to cheat in them. It's not Cambridge or MIT, but if someone graduates from the faculty I teach at with a high GPA then they have, in my opinion, obtained a worthwhile qualification. Many of our students compete and do well in academic competitions which are by now means easy, and every year several of our graduates go to highly regarded foreign colleges for postgraduate study.

"Most people have PhDs from respectable Western or Japanese universities," - which just about sums up the situation

Yes, Western universities are generally better, and much better for research in most areas. There is no denying that. I'm just addressing the idea that a lot of people seem to have that Thai universities are just Mickey Mouse diploma mills.

I'm just addressing the idea that a lot of people seem to have that Thai universities are just Mickey Mouse diploma mills.

Well aren't they?

The private universities certainly are.

"You pay for a degree, not an education. You're therefore our customer. We're here to help you. Here's your degree. Good luck."

[Loeilad]

My University is currently hotly debating whether or not lecturers should wear ties and makes their lecturers clock in.....which kind of sums up the whole situation...... they simply have no chance of ever being a world class uni with that attitude