No fail grading system.

[padkrapow]

Thanks for the comments. I feel like I understand the system a little bit more now.

[Scott]

Some, but not all, off-topic posts removed.

There are a number of factors which result in the no-fail system, but a couple of the big ones are culture and the way the system is structured. Culturally, failing would be a loss of face and that's a no-no in Thailand. A big part of education, not just here, is to make good citizens. Good Thai citizens don't lose face and don't cause others to lose face, usually.

Structurally, students in a particular grade take the same subject. In many western countries, if a student fails a subject, he/she repeats that subject. In Thailand that's not really possible, so failing a subject means repeating the entire year. In typical Thai fashion, the solution is for everyone to pass.

Thai education is replete with testing. Students are given practice tests, pre-tests and then tests. Most subjects are taught with the sole objective of passing the test. The actual level of knowledge is less important and I have seen teachers reprimanded for actually testing what a student should know about the subject matter. Students are spoon fed the information and the information is regurgitated on the exam. An upper level math teacher was once told that she was to give the students all the problems on the exam. In the actual exam only the numbers could be changed. Even practical, and relatively easy, problems like if I drive an average of X kilometers per hour how long will it take me to get from BKK to Chiang Mai, were not allowed.

The policy at some schools is that the students who fail will take a retest and will then be given 50% regardless of the grade they get on the retest. Other schools will continue to coach them until they actually pass. One thing I have seen is that they are given the exact same test for the retest.

In the end, if the student doesn't pass, the presumption is that it is because the teacher is bad.

[attrayant]

I'm allowed to fail students for low grades or excessive absences, but all this means is that the student will be required to attend a ten day "review" course on the subject he failed, during the term break at a cost of 600 baht per credit.

This ten day course will continue to be interrupted by activities and holidays, just like the regular school term, so it might end up being only 7 or 8 days. I'll be told to give him "easy work" so that he can pass with at least a 1.5 GPA.

The maximum score I'm allowed to give is 2.5, so even if the student stays awake and does all his word search puzzles very neatly, he still won't get a full score, but merely a passing one.

I suspect the school loves this because it's extra revenue with no additional expense involved.

[Scott]

I suggest you stop bickering and get back on topic.

Further inflammatory remarks will result in suspensions.

[SuwadeeS]

I got the order, to give everybody at least 75 out of 100.

This is against all mathematical logic and statistics.

Kidding me?? No way.

I let students fail. as I did in Europe.

Now, I would not go and teach at a Thai school anymore.

Its not fair. When we were you, we would have to repeat the school year.

I do not want to have to do anything anymore with that.

[simon43]

when they've only achieved 2% (on a multiple choice test) for 6 years.

If that's the case, I suggest that their marks should greatly improve if you give them a blindfold and a pin.

As to the discussion about regional accents, I cannot understand why those teachers who speak with a strong accent seem unable to 'switch off' that accent when teaching, (just as many Thais can switch from their local accent to Bangkok Thai).

I was brought up by my parents to switch between my local accent (for family/friend use), and 'Oxford English), for use when speaking with non-locals and in other appropriate scenarios. When I teach, I use Oxford English only, except when my students want to laugh at how incomprehensible a regional accent can sound.

[DavisH]

What are the repercussions for a student or a school if that student or a number of students were reported with fail marks of less than 50? eg does the school have its finances clipped? is the student held back a year etc?

There is a set procedure for failing students as set out by the MoE. I don;t know all the details as we haven't used it - If I recall, a student needs to have failed 5 or more subjects. Then they work actually needs to be retaught and then tested again (no you know why the schools go easy on students). It's just not workable to reteach a semester/year's work over summer. A student can only repeat a grade if the parents agree also (and sometimes they do). Our school had held back a few students, and a few chose to leave the school and go up the grade.

Unfortunately, for many schools, english is not seen as an important subject, so the kids are just pushed through it. Some schools are more serious, and I spend considerable time retesting students. Our lowest grade is 50, and everyone knows a GPA of 1 probably indicates the student failed, so I don't worry too much about it. I would not work for a school who told me to give a minimum of 2/3 for a student who does no work.

[Scott]

Over the years, we have had a few, but very few, parents who agreed to have their child held back. For those that did, it was a very wise decision. Those students did quite well after repeating a grade. In most cases, these were students who were in the early primary years and they needed some additional time to mature.

[SheungWan]

Some, but not all, off-topic posts removed.

There are a number of factors which result in the no-fail system, but a couple of the big ones are culture and the way the system is structured. Culturally, failing would be a loss of face and that's a no-no in Thailand. A big part of education, not just here, is to make good citizens. Good Thai citizens don't lose face and don't cause others to lose face, usually.

Structurally, students in a particular grade take the same subject. In many western countries, if a student fails a subject, he/she repeats that subject. In Thailand that's not really possible, so failing a subject means repeating the entire year. In typical Thai fashion, the solution is for everyone to pass.

Thai education is replete with testing. Students are given practice tests, pre-tests and then tests. Most subjects are taught with the sole objective of passing the test. The actual level of knowledge is less important and I have seen teachers reprimanded for actually testing what a student should know about the subject matter. Students are spoon fed the information and the information is regurgitated on the exam. An upper level math teacher was once told that she was to give the students all the problems on the exam. In the actual exam only the numbers could be changed. Even practical, and relatively easy, problems like if I drive an average of X kilometers per hour how long will it take me to get from BKK to Chiang Mai, were not allowed.

The policy at some schools is that the students who fail will take a retest and will then be given 50% regardless of the grade they get on the retest. Other schools will continue to coach them until they actually pass. One thing I have seen is that they are given the exact same test for the retest.

In the end, if the student doesn't pass, the presumption is that it is because the teacher is bad.

Are you telling us that this system also applies to students in medical school or other safety critical subject areas?

(I once asked a group of students in the UK whether they regarded grade B (60-69%) as a desirable grade. 'Yes! Yes!' was the overwhelming response. 'So how would you like to be operated on by a surgeon who scored 60% in their final exams?' I enquired. Silence.)

[attrayant]

This is an excellent lead-in to the question of "do grades/degrees matter"?

I once asked a group of students in the UK whether they regarded grade B (60-69%) as a desirable grade. 'Yes! Yes!' was the overwhelming response. 'So how would you like to be operated on by a surgeon who scored 60% in their final exams?' I enquired. Silence.

They might have been silent simply because it's a silly question, and generally not the way we evaluate medical professionals on a day-to-day basis.

I'm pretty sure that most, if not all of us, would choose a doctor or surgeon based on his years of experience and general standing/reputation at his proclaimed area of expertise, not on whatever college GPA he might have gotten 30 years prior. How many of us ask what a doctor's college GPA was when we go in to his office? I surely never have. Most doctors have their degrees frames and mounted on the walls of their office, but I have never walked over to take a detailed inspection of one.

In this respect, the medical profession is a good parallel to teaching. In both cases I want an experienced professional. I don't want some 20-something year old who's still learning the ropes even if he graduated with a 4.0. Also in both cases, I couldn't care less whether they graduated with a 1.5 or 4.0 GPA. If they've managed to keep their jobs for 10-20 years and avoid getting sanctioned or fired for incompetence, that's an indication that they're doing their jobs to the satisfaction of both their employers & customers.

Edited October 24, 2015 by attrayant

[SheungWan]

This is an excellent lead-in to the question of "do grades/degrees matter"?

I once asked a group of students in the UK whether they regarded grade B (60-69%) as a desirable grade. 'Yes! Yes!' was the overwhelming response. 'So how would you like to be operated on by a surgeon who scored 60% in their final exams?' I enquired. Silence.

They might have been silent simply because it's a silly question, and generally not the way we evaluate medical professionals on a day-to-day basis.

I'm pretty sure that most, if not all of us, would choose a doctor or surgeon based on his years of experience and general standing/reputation at his proclaimed area of expertise, not on whatever college GPA he might have gotten 30 years prior. How many of us ask what a doctor's college GPA was when we go in to his office? I surely never have. Most doctors have their degrees frames and mounted on the walls of their office, but I have never walked over to take a detailed inspection of one.

In this respect, the medical profession is a good parallel to teaching. In both cases I want an experienced professional. I don't want some 20-something year old who's still learning the ropes even if he graduated with a 4.0. Also in both cases, I couldn't care less whether they graduated with a 1.5 or 4.0 GPA. If they've managed to keep their jobs for 10-20 years and avoid getting sanctioned or fired for incompetence, that's an indication that they're doing their jobs to the satisfaction of both their employers & customers.

They were silent because the penny dropped that 60% was not all that good a mark to be considered capable in a safety critical environment. There is an assumption by most of us that in the case of the medical profession as an example, that students do not progress this way. However, the overall question still stands as to whether those in the medical professions or eg pilots are passed on a no-fail system in Thailand. If the answer is no, then those suggesting in the contributions above that 'no-fail' is something embedded in Thai culture really need to reconsider.

[Dumbastheycome]

On 10/2/2015 at 6:05 PM, Mencken said:

Whenever this is brought up its always good for a huge laugh. Usually, its frustrated teachers who 20-40 years ago would have been failing themselves. Thus may not be the op, jus sayin...

In the US many, many students are passed thru levels who go on to graduate and are functional illiterates. Why not here? Judging by the genius UK teachers I've taught with only one graduated university, that's about 7%.

So why the stress bro? Education isn't really important to you either.

Further, how, where is this third world education system going to provide remedial services and whose paying? No one ever brings up this gem.

Moreover, I hate blaming the system, I won't, but here I cut some slack. These kids have poor teachers, crap books, one hundred white faces, Filipino and N English accects, 40C heat in the class, poverty, family issues, peer pressures...and you want to shitcan their grade because they did not do X and Y in your class. Hope you have a ton of professional experience to make that assessment. Your tests and teaching, etc...not saying here it was you but maybe in part it was. First year teachers Im lookjng so hard at you. The tefl flunkies.

Why NOT give them the minimum grade I mean you're not a real teacher? You never had a lick of interest in teaching until now. This is just some job that keeps you in Thailand. Pretty disingenuous really.

Thailand wants them to pass. Pass them fools,

Finally, the system allows you to enter a grade of 50%, how much more of a fail do you need to brand on these children dear "teachers"?

A cynical reality! With the exception of  very  elite educational institutes  around the world the trend is to accommodate the lowest  achiever. Thailand is  no exception. It is  the secret weapon of a policy which appears to  provide compulsory  state  funded (? )  education  to  improve human resources. The truth is that it  is  aimed to ensure that only the  currently wealthy or the  incredibly  lucky acquire the  decreasing  number of  necessarily  qualified occupations  due to  computerization and automation. Those others that  derive  any education from  the  generic system may  achieve some  relative  success due to  intelligence  but mostly due to using it in an entrepreneurial effort. it is a  socially  dangerous policy because it facilitates the  elite a great  measure of  control.

[muzmurray]

12 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

A cynical reality! With the exception of  very  elite educational institutes  around the world the trend is to accommodate the lowest  achiever. Thailand is  no exception. It is  the secret weapon of a policy which appears to  provide compulsory  state  funded (? )  education  to  improve human resources. The truth is that it  is  aimed to ensure that only the  currently wealthy or the  incredibly  lucky acquire the  decreasing  number of  necessarily  qualified occupations  due to  computerization and automation. Those others that  derive  any education from  the  generic system may  achieve some  relative  success due to  intelligence  but mostly due to using it in an entrepreneurial effort. it is a  socially  dangerous policy because it facilitates the  elite a great  measure of  control.

 

And in English ?

[Dumbastheycome]

4 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

And in English ?

Are you a  policy victim?

[muzmurray]

5 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

Are you a  policy victim?

 

What ? 

 

I really hate when people try to be clever, but all they actually do is prove how "Dumbastheycome" they are.

[Scott]

Some nasty posts removed.   Please stay on topic.

[Uncle Bob]

"You never had a lick of interest in teaching until now. This is just some job that keeps you in Thailand. "

 

So true for about 95% of TEFLers....

 

 

[Scott]

13 hours ago, Uncle Bob said:

"You never had a lick of interest in teaching until now. This is just some job that keeps you in Thailand. "

 

So true for about 95% of TEFLers....

 

 

I am not sure how relevant that is to the topic, but I never had a lick of interest in working period, and I suspect a large percentage of people are in the same boat.   

[manarak]

On 10.2.2017 at 2:07 PM, Dumbastheycome said:

A cynical reality! With the exception of  very  elite educational institutes  around the world the trend is to accommodate the lowest  achiever. Thailand is  no exception. It is  the secret weapon of a policy which appears to  provide compulsory  state  funded (? )  education  to  improve human resources. The truth is that it  is  aimed to ensure that only the  currently wealthy or the  incredibly  lucky acquire the  decreasing  number of  necessarily  qualified occupations  due to  computerization and automation. Those others that  derive  any education from  the  generic system may  achieve some  relative  success due to  intelligence  but mostly due to using it in an entrepreneurial effort. it is a  socially  dangerous policy because it facilitates the  elite a great  measure of  control.

as many leftist conspiracy theorists, you confuse cause and consequence.

[Dumbastheycome]

15 hours ago, manarak said:

as many leftist conspiracy theorists, you confuse cause and consequence.

What  conspiracy theory? This  is  already  evident in  many compulsory  attendance  state  funded educational facilities. "Education"  applied  to  entire classroom  attendants  at  the  level and  rate of   learning of the  lowest  capacity  attendant, the  abandonment  of  nationally  based  examinations  in favour  of local school  administration  based  " assessments of  achievement", tiered  levels  of classes where  schools discriminate  which students  receive which tier  of  education, etc etc.

If  you choose to  doubt then perhaps  you  should  use  whatever  platform  you favour  to  check out the increasing comment on the  very  real evidence  that  dumbing down is  not a  leftist conspiracy theory  but  an applied policy.that has been in effect  for at least  2 decades already  in   some  countries.

[Uncle Bob]

21 hours ago, Scott said:

I am not sure how relevant that is to the topic, but I never had a lick of interest in working period, and I suspect a large percentage of people are in the same boat.   

It is relevant because of the fact that if no one cares about the students, only about the paycheck,  no urge to change things will develop.

 

I too want to teach in Thailand but I have chosen to get properly certified (teacher education in the Netherlands) first so that schools and students I will work for in the future are getting what they are paying for i.e. a well-trained professional with the right attitude and knowledge. Not just some bum who likes Thailand and wants to play teacher so he can stay a little longer. People without the proper teacher education should not be allowed to teach in any country, it is a profession, not a hobby. Would you like to have the brakes of your car serviced by a someone who drives a car of the same brand you do? Compare this with: Let him teach English because he speaks the language... It's stupid and one of the reasons the system in Thailand is what it is at the moment; a total disaster.

[Scott]

Well, I am fully qualified and have a Teacher's License.   My comment is somewhat facetious, but many of the qualified teachers rather quickly move on to other countries, with the exception of those who wish to stay in Thailand a little longer.   The Thai education system has some notable deficiencies which aren't easily overcome.   Most of them are systematic.

 

Without a doubt, anyone who is a good teacher will make a difference, but it will be limited in scope and benefit.  

[muzmurray]

7 hours ago, Uncle Bob said:

It is relevant because of the fact that if no one cares about the students, only about the paycheck,  no urge to change things will develop.

 

I too want to teach in Thailand but I have chosen to get properly certified (teacher education in the Netherlands) first so that schools and students I will work for in the future are getting what they are paying for i.e. a well-trained professional with the right attitude and knowledge. Not just some bum who likes Thailand and wants to play teacher so he can stay a little longer. People without the proper teacher education should not be allowed to teach in any country, it is a profession, not a hobby. Would you like to have the brakes of your car serviced by a someone who drives a car of the same brand you do? Compare this with: Let him teach English because he speaks the language... It's stupid and one of the reasons the system in Thailand is what it is at the moment; a total disaster.

 

Yet you are Dutch and want to come here and teach in the medium of English ? L2 teaching L2, possibly an L1, (without an education degree), would be more knowledgeable about the nuances of the English language?

 

(Though your English does look to be very good)

[manarak]

13 hours ago, Dumbastheycome said:

What  conspiracy theory? This  is  already  evident in  many compulsory  attendance  state  funded educational facilities. "Education"  applied  to  entire classroom  attendants  at  the  level and  rate of   learning of the  lowest  capacity  attendant, the  abandonment  of  nationally  based  examinations  in favour  of local school  administration  based  " assessments of  achievement", tiered  levels  of classes where  schools discriminate  which students  receive which tier  of  education, etc etc.

If  you choose to  doubt then perhaps  you  should  use  whatever  platform  you favour  to  check out the increasing comment on the  very  real evidence  that  dumbing down is  not a  leftist conspiracy theory  but  an applied policy.that has been in effect  for at least  2 decades already  in   some  countries.

this one:

" The truth is that it  is  aimed to ensure that only the  currently wealthy or the  incredibly  lucky acquire the  decreasing  number of  necessarily  qualified occupations  due to  computerization and automation. "

 

Please note that I 90%  agree with what you say on the effects, but I do not agree that such effects are the deliberate goals of a planned policy by the elites (3 necessary elements).

I rather think such effects are the natural consequence of a failing system, where dumbing down is the only solution seen by egalitarists to ease things for both students and teachers.

It's the same as the effects of high taxes in France and other countries - they were thought to redistribute wealth, but the effect was to increase wealth disparities.

[Uncle Bob]

4 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Yet you are Dutch and want to come here and teach in the medium of English ? L2 teaching L2, possibly an L1, (without an education degree), would be more knowledgeable about the nuances of the English language?

 

(Though your English does look to be very good)

I have done a so called TEFL course in Thailand as well, a long time ago. The level of the native speakers in my class was really abominable. They all had terrible accents (not RP), knew nothing about grammar, literature or teaching and generally had IQs far below teacher level. Nuances of English? I think I was more knowledgeable of them than all those L1 speakers together... Also, being an L2 gives me the advantage of knowing the difficulties that learners of English can have since I have had them myself. Too bad I'm not Thai :)

 

Edited February 16, 2017 by Uncle Bob
typo

[muzmurray]

7 minutes ago, Uncle Bob said:

I have done a so called TEFL course in Thailand as well, a long time ago. The level of the native speakers in my class was really abominable. They all had terrible accents (not RP), knew nothing about grammar, literature or teaching and generally had IQs far below teacher level. Nuances of English? I think I was more knowledgeable of them then all those L1 speakers together... Also, being an L2 gives me the advantage of knowing the difficulties that learners of English can have since I have had them myself. Too bad I'm not Thai :)

 

 

I agree with all of the above, with just one caveat. I find that some NNES teachers perpetuate errors because they have either not been taught correctly or they have not worked hard enough on their pronunciation.

[Uncle Bob]

4 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Yet you are Dutch and want to come here and teach in the medium of English ? L2 teaching L2, possibly an L1, (without an education degree), would be more knowledgeable about the nuances of the English language?

 

(Though your English does look to be very good)

One more thing: all Dutch teachers of English have to pass the Cambridge Proficiency Exam at A/B level. This is comparable to IELTS 9++ . Many L1 speakers will not pass this test, I can assure you.

[Uncle Bob]

5 minutes ago, muzmurray said:

 

I agree with all of the above, with just one caveat. I find that some NNES teachers perpetuate errors because they have either not been taught correctly or they have not worked hard enough on their pronunciation.

I agree wholeheartedly: pronunciation is the hardest part to get right for me. I think 4 years of training (some of our teachers are NES, others have 20+ years in teaching) will do me more good than an 8 week TEFL course in Thailand would.

Edited February 16, 2017 by Uncle Bob
typo

[localczar]

On 10/2/2015 at 5:32 PM, Cloggie said:

What I understand is that basically all students will pass ANY test, nobody will ever fail in Thailand!

Please correct me if I am wrong.

i have been hearing this for years. When I questioned a retired thai teacher, the response was: Yes, thai people cannot lose faith by failing school.

 

Pretty much sums it up.

[muzmurray]

32 minutes ago, localczar said:

i have been hearing this for years. When I questioned a retired thai teacher, the response was: Yes, thai people cannot lose faith by failing school.

 

Pretty much sums it up.

 

Wow, losing one's religious beliefs because of failing a P2 maths exam - that's harsh.

 

:-)

Edited February 27, 2017 by muzmurray