Death toll mounts in Israel and the Palestinian territories

[dexterm]

Religion is the main excuse, but behind that is tribal affiliations. Throughout much of the ME, there is a great deal of infighting with those from the same religion, but with different tribal affiliations.

The situation between the Israeli's and Palestinians is multi-dimensional.

It is true. But it also in some way to some degree exonerates Israelis?

It was said for a million times: If Arabs stop war - there will be peace. If Jews stop war - there will be massacre.

The real problem is not land - there is plenty of it.

The real problem is not Religion - world knows many religions.

The real problem is not tribes - they existed in this area for millennia.

The real problem is - Arabs of Palestine have nothing to live for. Arabs of Palestine have built nothing in the same time Jews have built Israel. Arabs of Palestine are the"Jews" of Arab world and no other Arabs want them.

Arabs of Palestine can only hate, fight, breed and die and are nicely paid to do just this. Arabs of Palestine can not be re-educated, rehabilitated, re-located for the reasons mentioned.

Arabs of Palestine from Gaza or West Bank are not even indigenous to the Israeli territory. Now you can call me a racist...

But no, you cannot call me a racist because Arabs of Israel live with Jews, work with Jews and have plenty of reasons to live for.

Absolute racist hogwash stereotyping an entire people. The Palestinians haven't had a chance to build anything. they've had their hands tied by colonial powers..the Ottomans, the British ...and now Israel and the USA. Just because the bully and the Zionist lobby wins doesn't make it right.

If Israel would stop controlling every aspect of their lives through occupation, just watch them prosper. What on earth do you think they are fighting and dying for in the OP....self determination!

Edited October 12, 2015 by dexterm

[jacky54]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

[Thorgal]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

To who are you referring?

[konying]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

[Jingthing]

The mainstream media press coverage on this latest wave of Palestinian terrorism has been quite biased against Israel. The stories usually lead with words like Israelis shoot Palestinian in the headline and then you have to get into the story to read why ... that they were shooting an actual murderous terrorist that had already seriously injured or killed some random Jewish people. Recent event ... two Palestinian teens 13 and 17 critically injured a 13 year old Jewish boy (the terrorist stabbed him almost a dozen times) and seriously injured a 24 year old Jewish man. One of the terrorists was shot dead and the other is receiving world class medical care at an Israeli hospital. I hope he survives to rot in jail.

Just a sample of the kind of thing that is happening there DAILY.

It's OK to report these events but the leads should really be about the terrorist acts that necessitated a reaction.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Jingthing

[dexterm]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

More racist/religionist bigotry. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians suspect sinister Israeli motives re Al Aqsa with attitudes like yours.

I am an atheist. I dont care what people worship, but I respect their beliefs.

[simple1]

During the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland security forces were often confronted by youths throwing rocks and Molotov Cocktails. I don't recall UK security forces using live ammunition during clashes with stone throwing demonstrators & regularly killing them. Why is it so different with the Israeli response?

Take a look at the report below. IDF used deadly force when shooting across open ground from behind the protection of razor wire fences. Why?

http://mondoweiss.net/2015/10/israeli-palestinian-demonstrators

[jacky54]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

[dexterm]

The mainstream media press coverage on this latest wave of Palestinian terrorism has been quite biased against Israel. The stories usually lead with words like Israelis shoot Palestinian in the headline and then you have to get into the story to read why ... that they were shooting an actual murderous terrorist that had already seriously injured or killed some random Jewish people. Recent event ... two Palestinian teens 13 and 17 critically injured a 13 year old Jewish boy (the terrorist stabbed him almost a dozen times) and seriously injured a 24 year old Jewish man. One of the terrorists was shot dead and the other is receiving world class medical care at an Israeli hospital. I hope he survives to rot in jail.

Just a sample of the kind of thing that is happening there DAILY.

It's OK to report these events but the leads should really be about the terrorist acts that necessitated a reaction.

Of course the international media are negative towards Israel. Israel is the occupier and invader. They are the bullies.They hold all the peace cards and all the heavy weapons.

Why does the Israeli cabinet approve live ammunition against stone throwers. It is pouring gas on the fire rather than calming things down.

What was the crime warranting the death sentence for 9 Palestinians including a 12 year old, murdered by sadistic IDF, when Gazan demonstrators rolled burning tires towards the border fence behind which the IDF in all their body armor and vehicles were safe. Where were the rubber bullets, water cannons, tear gas, pepper spray.... That way you dont create martyrs; that way you don't escalate the situation...unless you actually want to.

This negative PR could be a foretaste of what might happen if Israel tried something even more sinister.

The tide of public opinion has turned against Israel. More people globally are now aware of the great Israeli hoax: play the victim, when you are in fact the aggressor.

[dexterm]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

The dusty old 5 Arab armies myth has been debunked many times before, as has the stop the rockets mantra...off topic deflections all. Another thread, another time maybe. The OP concerns Israeli disproportionate force and death toll against Palestinians, many of them children. What can be done to calm things down now. Look to the future.

Edited October 13, 2015 by dexterm

[konying]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

More racist/religionist bigotry. Is it any wonder that the Palestinians suspect sinister Israeli motives re Al Aqsa with attitudes like yours.

I am an atheist. I dont care what people worship, but I respect their beliefs.

[konying]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

The dusty old 5 Arab armies myth has been debunked many times before, as has the stop the rockets mantra...off topic deflections all. Another thread, another time maybe. The OP concerns Israeli disproportionate force and death toll against Palestinians, many of them children. What can be done to calm things down now. Look to the future.

Yes we all aware you prefer Israel does nothing, because poor little Arabs ONLY throw rocks and molotovs or fire only 100000 rockets

What can be done? for starters, retarded parents can keep their children at home, instead of sending them to the front lines because it makes great headlines

[Thorgal]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

Hundreds-Muslims-Praying-At-Al-Aqsa-Mosque-Jerusalem.jpg

The Muslim prayers are indeed facing to the East.

But on that particular location, the wailing wall remains in the back, in the West...too...

[dexterm]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

The dusty old 5 Arab armies myth has been debunked many times before, as has the stop the rockets mantra...off topic deflections all. Another thread, another time maybe. The OP concerns Israeli disproportionate force and death toll against Palestinians, many of them children. What can be done to calm things down now. Look to the future.

Yes we all aware you prefer Israel does nothing, because poor little Arabs ONLY throw rocks and molotovs or fire only 100000 rockets

What can be done? for starters, retarded parents can keep their children at home, instead of sending them to the front lines because it makes great headlines

I did not say that Israel should do nothing...I have suggested many alternatives for crowd control that don't create fatalities and martyrs. They may serve to calm the situation down, rather than Israel's present course of action which only inflames.

The rest of your post is hyperbole, muddying timelines, deflection and racism.

[jazzyfrosty]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

Of course there is a road to peace. It is the two state solution and an end to occupation.

Interesting.

So how does that work now that the terrorist organization Hamas not only controls Gaza but is massively more popular than the "moderate" faction led by Abbas in Judea/Samaria?

In case you forgot Hamas is openly against ever accepting any state of Israel with any borders and is openly genocidal towards Jewish people in general.

Dawa-Hamas.jpg

[konying]

Don't recall N Ireland being attacked by 5 Arab armies either, hundreds of rockets fired over the border in a few weeks or over sixty years of murderous attacks by terrorists threatening to push it into the sea. The Irish conflict was childs play in comparison. The provo supporters did get a smacking on a certain Sunday though, and been crying about it ever since.

The dusty old 5 Arab armies myth has been debunked many times before, as has the stop the rockets mantra...off topic deflections all. Another thread, another time maybe. The OP concerns Israeli disproportionate force and death toll against Palestinians, many of them children. What can be done to calm things down now. Look to the future.

Yes we all aware you prefer Israel does nothing, because poor little Arabs ONLY throw rocks and molotovs or fire only 100000 rockets

What can be done? for starters, retarded parents can keep their children at home, instead of sending them to the front lines because it makes great headlines

I did not say that Israel should do nothing...I have suggested many alternatives for crowd control that don't create fatalities and martyrs. They may serve to calm the situation down, rather than Israel's present course of action which only inflames.

The rest of your post is hyperbole, muddying timelines, deflection and racism.

Yes, its nice and comfy to make suggestions in the comfort of your armchair.

Why do you join the front lines and see how you feel when a rock hits you in the head, or you get stabbed in the back or your house gets rocketed.

Of course the rest of my post is all that, after all arabs love playing this game all across the world. The entire world should bend over backwards for them to suit their needs.

[up-country_sinclair]

UN peacekeepers should have been on the ground decades ago.

[Jingthing]

Some good examples of the anti-Israel press bias I was talking about coming from Germany , of all places:

“The Neue Volksblatt prefers to publish a big headline ‘I also want to die as a martyr.’ In all cases sympathy is being expressed for the supposedly dismal situation of Palestinians, while the Jewish victims and the Palestinian incitement, which should be at the forefront of attention, are being ignored, or buried somewhere in lengthy propaganda-like texts.”

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Israel-embassy-in-Berlin-blasts-German-media-for-slanted-terror-coverage-423862

[Scott]

An inflammatory post with personal remarks have been removed. Continue and warnings will be issued.

[Morch]

Armed Israelis, who want to live, confronted by youths with nothing to live for, armed with knives and stones. Something of David and Goliath in this story, and we know who won that one!

Many of the Israelis attacked were unarmed civilians, most of the attacks were carried out within Israel proper or in East Jerusalem.

Some of the attackers were Arab Israeli citizens, and many of the armed Israelis are youths themselves.

A bit more complex than a simplified analogy (and anyway, thought relying on ancient biblical sources was deemed invalid?).

As for "nothing to live for", lets not get over dramatic. It doesn't quite capture the situation as well. That West Bank Palestinians are oppressed is true enough, but their situation is far from being as dire as meriting a "nothing to live for" caption. If this was the case, the violence would have been more severe and wide-spread than it currently is. Life in the West Bank, unappealing as it is, still beats current conditions in Syria, Libya, Gaza and parts of Iraq (just to name a few examples). Nothing to be proud about as far as Israel goes, and maybe not much of a consolation for Palestinians, but realistically true.

[Morch]

Armed Israelis, who want to live, confronted by youths with nothing to live for, armed with knives and stones. Something of David and Goliath in this story, and we know who won that one!

Deep seeded hatred, animosity, tranaggretion and hostilities entrenched into people's and children's

minds for generations,

at times, are worse than any weapons,

and please, butcher knives, Molotov bottles, car ramming, sending your young children

to do the dirty work and hiding behind them not going to bring peace to the region,

It seems that both side are resigned to their faith, and willing and able to suffer the

ongoing killings and mayhem....

Religion is the root cause of the problems in the ME. They all hate each other. Ridiculous.

Religion plays a part but it's not the root cause.

The root cause is the expansion of illegal Israeli settlements and the expulsion of Palestinians from their land.

Root how?

The conflict was well on its way prior to the Israeli illegal settlements in the West Bank coming on stage.

The illegal Israeli settlements serve to preserve and fuel the conflict further, but were not the cause.

Same goes for the "expulsion" (there were more than one factor at play) - conflict was already on when this became a reality.

It may be said that the international treatment of Palestinian refugees contributed to making a resolution harder to reach.

The quest of finding an ultimate reason for the conflict is a doomed undertaking.

[Morch]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

It is especially hard to tackle conflicts while having to deal with historical revisionism.

There was no such conflict 2500 years ago.

Hopefully we will be spared the nonsensical argument about the Palestinians being the Philistines, or some such.

[Morch]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

[Morch]

Israel keeps doing the same thing expecting a different outcome. They never learn, its never their fault. Unable to look in the house of mirrors.

Just keep expanding settlements, need land for the chosen people. No one else matters.

What expansions of settlements is referred to in connection with the OP?

Netanyahu: Now is the time for unity government, not announcements of building in settlements

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Netanyahu-The-Islamist-extremism-plaguing-the-Middle-East-has-arrived-at-Israels-doorstep-421367

Not mentioned in the linked article but appearing elsewhere, a ministerial committee meeting regarding legislation of further Palestinian land appropriation was cancelled, as timing seemed extra-inflammatory.

Speaking of doing the same thing over and over, while expecting different results - how is the current Palestinian violence promoting their national aspirations?

[Morch]

Not much of an even fight than with bullets vs stones.

This is if one holds the false premise that such "fights" ought to be even.

Doubt that either side sees it as beneficial - Israelis from a practical point of view, Palestinians from a PR one.

We're not talking about football fans having a go at each other.

And that's without reminding, again, that many of the Israelis attacked were unarmed civilians.

[Seastallion]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

You must be joking! You suggest that Palestinians upset at their homes being bulldozed are analogous to a spoiled brat not wanting to share?

[Morch]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

Of course there is a road to peace. It is the two state solution and an end to occupation.

Interesting.

So how does that work now that the terrorist organization Hamas not only controls Gaza but is massively more popular than the "moderate" faction led by Abbas in Judea/Samaria?

In case you forgot Hamas is openly against ever accepting any state of Israel with any borders and is openly genocidal towards Jewish people in general.

Dawa-Hamas.jpg

It would not be necessary to include Gaza in the two state solution. Israel leaves the occupied territories to be led by Abbas's faction. If they attack Israel, they would be punished. You obviously know that Gaza is not currently occupied.

The problem is that Israel does not want to give back enough land to allow a viable west bank state to succeed. Probably why they are not serious about that path to peace.

The Palestinian position is to reject such a differentiation between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. The usual formulation is that anything but an all inclusive agreement is a no go. There is also no popular support among Palestinians for such a notion.

Why it is assumed that following an Israeli withdrawal the West Bank will be led by "Abbas's faction"? Abbas, and the Fatah, are hugely unpopular due to many reasons, not all to do with Israel. Given a shot at free elections, more than likely Hamas will emerge victorious (again), and that the aftermath will contribute to the rise of hardliner leaders within the Fatah. Regardless, considering Abbas's age, any strategy relying on him as a linchpin is a doubtful proposition. As an aside, it is not quite clear what "Abbas's faction" was supposed to denote - the Fatah as a whole? Abbas loyalists within the Fatah?

As for "If they attack Israel, they would be punished" - doesn't work all that well with the Gaza Strip. Israeli attacks are deemed unacceptable regardless of events, and they do not actually manage to bring about even a sustainable ceasefire.

There are obstacles for peaceful resolutions from both sides, focusing exclusively on those raised by Israel paints half a picture.

[Morch]

It would be better for everyone involved to stop deluding themselves and others.

There will never be Peace between "Palestinians" and Israelis in this region. There is no Peace process. There is no "Road to Peace".

In 2,500 years it didn't grow under the olives or date palms. It has nothing to grow from.

Any solution must be found outside of square box.

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

You must be joking! You suggest that Palestinians upset at their homes being bulldozed are analogous to a spoiled brat not wanting to share?

Not at all.

That bit was referring to the partition plan and the relevant UN resolution.

Like I said, silly analogies are not a very good tool when trying to better understand complex situations.

[thaibeachlovers]

The only thing they are fighting for is the end of Israel, they could have had self determination over 60 years ago

Nailed it in 1 sentence, cause their surely not fighting for the temple when they pray with ass facing the temple

Hundreds-Muslims-Praying-At-Al-Aqsa-Mosque-Jerusalem.jpg

That's a really ignorant statement. They pray facing Mecca, regardless of where the MOSQUE is. Try learning the truth before posting garbage.

[thaibeachlovers]

I think the delusion is in not realising that Israel can not continue to occupy a people, a people who, whatsmore, are recognised as a state by 70% of the world.

I think the delusion is not realising that soon the world will take a stand and slap the spoiled brat and teach it some manners and some rules.

70 years ago, the world, via the UN, gave the Zionists a state for the Jewish refugees of Europe. It was a needed step, and it was done, despite displacing the indigenous people. Since then, the Zionists have acted like a spoiled brat, taking more "because we want it", thumbing it's nose to the world, the UN, that created it, and the world has stood by, indulging the brat, afraid of it's tantrums and manipulations.

As with any spoiled brat, the screams, the tantrums, and the selfishness become too much for even the most indulgent parent. A smack, and sent to sit in the corner will be forthcoming.

There is also a certain evident delusion in not realizing that no viable solution could be reached without Israel's assent.and cooperation, international pressure notwithstanding. Attempts to force a not agreed upon resolution might end up with an agreement of sorts, but are not likely to be conductive for it holding up to reality.

As usual, there is no mention of Israel neighbors and the Palestinians rejecting that very same UN resolution. No mention of actions taken by Arab countries and the Palestinians to undo the UN resolution. No mention of two Arab countries taking over them future Palestinian territories (Egypt and Jordan).

Not that I go much for simplified analogies, but seems the spoiled brat one above could be applied for the Palestinians with ease: throwing a fit not wanting to share, then whining when reality bites.

You must be joking! You suggest that Palestinians upset at their homes being bulldozed are analogous to a spoiled brat not wanting to share?

Not at all.

That bit was referring to the partition plan and the relevant UN resolution.

Like I said, silly analogies are not a very good tool when trying to better understand complex situations.

How can you accuse the Palestinians of not wanting to share when their land OUTSIDE Israel is being stolen slowly, piece by piece? It is the Israelis that want it all, and don't want to share. Facts on the ground.