Enormous Shakeup Of Visa And Immigration Rules

[mpdkorat]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Yes the UK Embassy does require proof of income/pension unlike the USA Embassy who just get you to swear to it.

[roysv]

If I apply for a tourist visa at any embassy in the world before going into Thailand I get 60 days, then I can ask for 30 days more at the local immigration office. After 90 days I have too leave

Thailand, but when I get into the new country (ex Malaysia) I can ask for tourist visa again and get new

60 days + 30 days extending, All this without have to think about the 180 days.

roysv, you confuse me a bit here, according to the originally posted article it sounds like the 60 day tourist visa will be changed to 90 days, not 60 + 30 day renewal. Which is the correct answer?

It confused me too, but I know that we as citizens of Norway before had only 30 days VOA. I only wrote what my emassy wrote on there web site after the meeting. I think this is the same for everybody, but If anyone can document different I'll be happy to read.

[Beavis and Butthead]

I'm beginning to feel that it's not really worth the effort to stay in Thailand.

Recently I've been thinking about the reasons for being in Bangkok and I can't really come up with a unique selling point!

If you want to hang out in pool bars with lots of willing women who don't speak much english, then Bangkok is great. It gets boring after a while (several years ago!)

Restaurants serving western-style food are pretty poor or very expensive (even by western standards), Thai restaurants are blandly luxurious or great food but austere surroundings.

Entertainment? - Cinema? ummm....golf?

Work environment - don't get me started!

Traffic and cost of cars?

I'm tired of not being able to get an original version of movies, CDs and computer software, tired of getting sold stuff where the pacakaging has been opened already. Tired of buying fake Polo shirts, or getting tailored suits that fit worse than M&S off the shelf. Tired of pressing the 'guaranteed 60 second' button in McDonalds (has anyone ever been served in 60 seconds!?)

Tired of reporting every 3 months to say that I'm still with my wife and kids. Tired of signing all rights away.

Perhaps I'm just jaded, but now that I just spent a bundle of cash to set up an IT consultancy company over here, it seems I might find it difficult to get a work permit to work there! I wasn't planning on any more assignments in Thailand anyway, but I need the WP and salary so I can continue to live with my wife and kids in our house (in her name).

Perhaps I'll chage my mind, but right now, I'm thinking the whole family is going to be moving, next time I get a contract outside Thailand.

Great heartfelt post. I understand and I feel for you

[Beavis and Butthead]

Some twenty years ago, I used to visit Nepal to go the Himalayan mountains.

Their rule was that you could only be a tourist in their country for 180 days in any one year.

It makes sense for any country to prevent people being unwelcome de-facto residents by using back-to-back tourist visas.

Thank you for that. It's all wonderful and good and your contribution is enormous. However I think the issue you raise was covered quite well in the hundreds of pages of threads on the matter when that very issue came out a few weeks ago. Now there is a very different dilemma known as new regs regarding the very important marriage/retirement Non O visas and Non B visas. Perhaps you need to get up to speed on these very real concerns about these very important new issues.

[apex2000]

I have a Non-O visa which dates back to 1996. I have been in Thailand on yearly extensions since then and have also had a work permit since that time. During that time, I have worked at three different government high schools and now work at the Provincial Non-Formal Education Centre here as a volunteer. I am now in my second year of working for them. Each year, my employer issues a contract of work plus several other documents. These documents are then taken to the Governor's office which issues yet another document. Together, these documents are taken to the immigration department in Phibun Mangsahan where they issue a new one-year visa extension. I have had no problems with this ever since 1996. After visiting the immigration office and having my visa extended, I then go to the Labour Department office where they extend my work permit for another year. Never have I been asked for proof of income or proof of money in the bank. Never have I had a problem. I know the people in both departments very well now.

I wonder what will happen in May next year when I am due to renew everything again. Any ideas?

My income is from teaching privately at a tutoring school set up by my 'wife' [we are not actually married - just living together very happily]. The tutoring school is registered with the authorities and she has an official licence.

As a slight detour - when I renewed my visa in May this year, I talked to an immigration officer at some length regarding staying in Thailand once I am too old to work and about being without a pension. His answer was: 'There are many pension-aged foreigners living in the northeast of Thailand without any visa at all. Provided they live peacefully and don't bother anyone, we are not bothered about the fact that they have no visa.' It seems that if you live quietly, maybe somewhere out in the country, no one gives a toss about you and you can look forward to many years of peaceful living in retirement without having to worry about visas at all. That's my plan.

[RickFarang]

But Rick, how did that person stay here (what visa?) for the last YEAR without leaving? As we are talking EXTENSIONS I presume on a retirement or married visa....

Cheers!

My point, exactly!

With respect to apex2000's comments: As you may realize upon thinking about it a little longer, the immigration people (at least in my experience, and apparently in yours) are generally good-hearted people and they will give you every break they can legitmatelly give to you. Its unlikely that you will have any more of a problem the next time your visa comes up for renewal that you had last time. (Knock on wood.)

Edited October 3, 2006 by RickFarang

[JimsKnight]

Am I the only one considering the effect this will have on oil workers who reside in thailand?

Some of these guys are the biggest spenders known to thailand and they fly in/out on regular crew changes (2 weeks on 3 weeks off etc). Whats going to happen to these guys? Thailands going killing the golden goose. But this statement from the journo sounds like hype to me. Whats really matters is the immigration offices enforecement at the end of the day.

[rayw]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

[toptuan]

As a slight detour - when I renewed my visa in May this year, I talked to an immigration officer at some length regarding staying in Thailand once I am too old to work and about being without a pension. His answer was: 'There are many pension-aged foreigners living in the northeast of Thailand without any visa at all. Provided they live peacefully and don't bother anyone, we are not bothered about the fact that they have no visa.' It seems that if you live quietly, maybe somewhere out in the country, no one gives a toss about you and you can look forward to many years of peaceful living in retirement without having to worry about visas at all. That's my plan.

Ah, I've often wondered about those beer-bellied, red-nosed farangs who come into town once a month for the beer run, wearing only a sarong, barefoot, unshaven, and can't look another farang or official-looking Thai person in the face.

They've forgotten how to speak English (German, Dutch, etc.), and have 2 or 3 leuk-krueng grandkids (or kids from their 28-year-old Thai wife?) it tow. Stamped on their foreheads: "I haven't been home to the UK (France, USA, etc.) for 8 years."

They disappear down the dirt road in a cloud of dust kicked up by their 30-year-old motorbike which has been repaired over a thousand times and is held together by those little red rubber bands which seal bags of fish sauce.

Mystery solved. Thanks!

Edited October 3, 2006 by toptuan

[ssparks111]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

[RickFarang]

rayw:

"I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for"

Americans who lie on their affidaivits are guilty of a felony. Pretty serious stuff. Its more in lne with American tradiition for people to be responsible for themeslevs rather than having the government looking after them.

JimsKnight:

"Am I the only one considering the effect this will have on oil workers who reside in thailand?"

Not really. I worry about the people who pass through Bangkok on their way to and from Asian business destinations. Many people (including oil workers) vist Thailand for only a few days at a time, but many times a year. It appears that these guys will not be able to stop by so often.

[aznyron]

So let me get this straigh... I have tried to follow these new rules once they were made public a few weeks ago but and still baffled.

I am leaving Thailand in Mid Nov and plan on getting a tourist visa from the Thai embassy in NY for my return in Jan. Once that has been completed, I assume I will have a 90 day visa to stay in the Kingdom. Before those 90 days expire, I am allowed to make 2 or 3 visa runs to Cambodia, Laos or wherever for an additional 60 days????

Once those 2 or 3 visa runs have been used, I must then leave the country and apply for a new tourist visa at an embassy outside the Kingdom, such as Cambodia? Then the whole cycle can begina again?

I am currently going to school her learning the language and am really contemplating not coming back if I can only stay for a total of 6 months then go home for 3. Not really following what the whole deal is.

Any help is greatly appreciated. when in New York apply for a 6 month tourist visa and all you have to do is make a border run every other month it cost 100 bucks I got one in jan from Coral Gables FL

consulate Jan 05 I am sure they are issuing them avoid the Wash/DC embassy they do not help you Now I have non immigration O visa applying for my retirement in a few weeks wish me luck by the way I am a Brooklyn born and raised

Jeff

[toptuan]

Not really. I worry about the people who pass through Bangkok on their way to and from Asian business destinations. Many people (including oil workers) vist Thailand for only a few days at a time, but many times a year. It appears that these guys will not be able to stop by so often.

Ricky-guy, you've got a lotta reading catch-up to do. Buried in these 1,000 pages of threads about the new rules, is the update that immigration is going to look at total number of days spent in Thailand (not over 90 annually) on a visitor's visa, rather than number of visitor's visa stamps in your passport. Tell your quick-stopover friends to relax.

[Maestro]

"He paid the mega bucks for the application fee, passed all of the tests and was still denied. How many times do they want to collect the fee before they aprove the residency ??"

Talking about Baht 200,000.

More info here: http://www.thaivisa.com/300.0.html

The application fee is 7,600 Baht.

Only if and when the application is approved, the Residence Permit costs 95,700 Baht if married to a Thai, otherwise 191,400 Baht.

See also “Criteria and conditions for foreign nationals’ residential permit consideration” on the Immigration website.

--------------

Maestro

Edited to add last paragraph.

Edited October 3, 2006 by maestro

[North]

I look forward to the day, when some has the balls, to take the immigration department to the International Court in the Hague, for seperating a man from his legally wedded wife!

Good luck with that.. But be sure to bring a case against virtually every country in the world when you do it..

You don't get an automatic right to live in any country just because you are married to someone..

This has been the case since the middle ages almost.

I don't know what Hague will do about it but what you say is bull. Tell me one other country that does not allow you to live in it if you are married to one of their nationals.

This is allowed in all of the Americas, North and South and in all of Europe. Asia may be differen, Africa too, I don't have som much experiene there, but "virtually every country in the world" is just bull, pure unadulterated!

You are wrong !

In Denmark there is absolutely no automatic right to live with your spouse.

Be careful about throwing all that "bull" around, the smell might just hang on to yourself.

Define "automatic" then. I lived in Europe with my TW for 10 years, including Denmark, and had no problems getting an unlimited visa/residence permit for her. We had to ask for it, but it was no big deal. One application in the embassy here, and one visit to the local 'kommune' and it was sorted.

No 3rd degree interrogation, no questions asked, no raisied eyebrows, no checking funds, no nothing!

As an earlier poster wrote: " You don't get an automatic right to live in any country just because you are married to someone.. "

I think I don´t need to define the word " automatic " , but I can tell you a little about the rules in Denmark today:

I am a danish national, and my thai wife cannot live in Denmark with me, because I live on a government pension. They say: you need an income to be able to support your wife !

I say: I have an income, - the government pension and I have a saving in the bank big enough for taking care of my wife until she can get a job!

They say: Well, we don´t consider the pension as an income, you have to work, and the money in the bank, it does not matter, only work-related income matters.

If a danish national has a foreign spouse under the age of 24, the foreign spouse cannot be permitted to stay in Denmark. The danish national must also be 24 years or older

Furthermore a lot of other demands must be met, before a danish national can live in Denmark with a foreign spouse, a few examples:

Your home (apartment or house, rented or owned) must be of a certain size, I don´t recall the exactly figures.

If you rent a home and can only dispose of that rental in less than 3 years, you cannot have family reunification.

The government plan in near future the demand of the foreigner to have a language test in the danish language in the foreigner´s home country before allowing the foreigner to move to Denmark.

You will have to give a guarantee of the amount of approx. 340.000 baht to the government pending for 7 years, just in case something happens so that you cannot take care of your spouse.

So you see, there is no automatic right.

North

[BlackJack]

I wonder what the future for the Condo, market will be? With no more investment visa's being issued, and no new threshold set, who in their right minds, is going to buy a Condo, and those who's stay is based on such an investment, will be trapped, into holding on to theirs. How many Thais opt for Condos over houses?

Good point,

Condos may turn into Time Shares,

In viewing this thread I have a few observations as an investor and a potential retiree to Thailand. The dilema that the Thai real estate market will soon be in is not only that no one in their right mind will be buying condos(especially in Phuket, Pattaya, Hua Hin and a few other overheated markets), but that the market will be flooded with existing condos for sale in addition to the new developments. As has been stated in a prevoius post, foriegn ownership is not only 49% of these buildings, but in many cases nearly 100% due to Thai corporations owned by farangs. The combination of an already inflated condo market in these areas coupled with a soon to be massive overhang of supply and a very skidish and shrinking pool of potential buyers is the worst of all worlds for this sector. The upcoming economic woes for Thailand will not only be isolated to the real estate, but the equity sector as well. There will likely be no crash in the Thai equity markets, however as foriegn funds slowly divest themselves of many of their holdings in the Thai market, there will be a gradual but in the end a fairly substantial hit to the Thai stock market as well. I have no doubt that the Thai government had been contemplating a change in visa policy for some time to rid the country of the backpacker, hippie and permanent sex tourist, and that the negative press exposure that Thailand recieved (weather warranted or not) after the Karr incident promted this current action, however this has all occured a very inopportune time for the Thai economy due to the recent military takeover (and the announcement of a military man as interim PM) , tanks in the street, U.S. pulling its aid out ect. ect.. Tourisim will undoubtedly be hit hard, after all the pool of potential S.E. asia tourists have many options of vacation spots that don't have tanks in the streets and political unrest. Potential retirees to the LOS will also have to recheck their plans, I know that my wife and I were giving serious thought to retiring in Thailand, and while we haven't ruled it out it is far less likely to occur. In addition to us we know of three other couples all in the same situation with thai wives who were definatly planning on retireing to Thailand and now at least two of those couples have changed their plans and the other is like us and just downgrading the likelyhood of going to Thailand for retirement. I think that this scenario is being played out in Thai-American communities all over the states and elseware by babyboomers. I certainly hope that when the cabinet is announced later this week, there will be some forward thinking people selceted with strong economic and finance backrounds, because unless Thailand can shore up international investor confidence I think a crisis is likely. Our prayers and wishes are with everyone over there, lets hope this looming crisis can be avoided or at least subdued.

I believe your assement is accurate. This will not hurt Thailand short-term but it will over the course of several years. The US is going down a similar road due to similarly unintelligent decisions. IE (immigrant workers) Many Thais (not all) are happy that foreigners must leave now but once that starts occuring in earnest over time a large drop in money coming in will be experienced. One of the companies I am affiliated with was researching several avenues of investment. That effort has been redirected now to other areas in the region. They have not ruled out Thailand. They simply took it off the list for now. But if you follow that train of thought you will see that if this company decides to invest elsewhere...even if Thailand is still on the list...that will be that much less money they have to spend in Thailand. Once committed to a country more money flow usually follows requireing more local workers. Most of these workers are residents of the host countries. Money follows money. On the flip side...as Thailands property markets recede from their highs and less money goes into Thailand and more poor people are created that will make Thailand cheap again to do business if they figure out how to allow foreign capital back in. This is a net loss for Thais not a gain. Just as markets were beginning to open the doors appear to be closing. India, China, Vietnam and Malaysia all stand to benefit here. In the scheme of things Visa changes seem minor to an overall economy. The reality is that is never the case.

Two very intelligent posts on this matter. Thank you..

My view is similar, but I am more apocalyptic about the immediate impact. In January/Febraury (unless the current proposals are changed) there will be a forced exodus of foreigners, who do not fit the Visa requirements.

(a) At the bottom end (room rent B2500-B6000pcm), there will be little impact. Most of these ferrangs do not have the funds to repatriate or move on to an alternative country. They will probably stay on illegally and not care. I know many personally in this catagory. Those from this catagory that do exit to pastures green will leave their apartments ready to be let to Thai tenants, as the price range is affordable. The overall effect on the owners of this property segment is marginal, but certainly downward, in terms of prices and occupancy.

( In the main foreign occupied segmant, B6000-B18000, I envisage a substantial probelm for buy-to-let owners. The present occupiers will be prevented from staying and will deduce that maintenance of the unit as a perminant residence is uneconomic and may relocate perminantly elsewhere, or change their stays in Thailand to shorter, hotel accomodation trips. This will have a serious effect on the market, as the rental income on these types of unit plays a large part of funding the mortgage payments of the owners, which, in turn, funds the resale price of these properties. High vacancy rates, along with downward pressure on rents (a result of the forgoing) leads to declines in Property Asset Values. From then on it is a downward spiral. A classic credit crunch. Owners do not meet mortgage repayments, due to lack of rental income, banks repossess and sell for lower price to recoup losses of monies borrowed. Remaining property remains unlet/unsold at the price purchased at and therefore more owners are forced to pour money into property that is no longer worth what they paid. The market corrects itself, reacting to the reduction of available tenants (foreigners), when at the same time the price bracket of the properties is such that ordinary Thais cannot fill the void (as they can in example (a).

© In the upper end of the market (B18000 +), a large part of the occupancy is corporate, both domestic and foreign. This will be unaffected in its own right, as companies sitill need people who are housed accordingly. It will, however be influenced by the number of vacant, lower priced units, which may cause uncertainty on ownership of this sector. There is also, quite separately, a significant over-supply of such units building up, so this may be due for a correction in any case.

The net result of the above would certainly be pain for owners of property relying on rental income, reposessions and increases in NPLs. Given the inherant weakness of the Thai banking system over the years, this could create grave circumstances that those orchastrating these moves have yet to consider.

I have one word for you

CHINA

As China becomes more affluent as is happening now, they will begin to travel more as is happening now.

They will pay their money and get their visa and come here and spend their money.

Maybe not much money to begin with but their shear numbers will make up for it.

As the top end of THailand is mixed Chinese blood. Over the next few years they will marry locals, set up border business's and the money will start pouring in as is happeneing now.

The biggest market in the history of the world is right on Thailands doorstep and Thailand is set to reap the benefits. At just a dollar a head you are looking at 1.2 billion dollars.

So please dont kid yourselfs that when you and your dollars leave that it is somehow going to effect anything thats happening here. It may be a blip and not much more.

I certainly feel sorry for those that pegged their hopes on retiring in Thailand and now have to leave.

But i get the feeling that the table is being cleared for something bigger.

These recent moves to tighten everything up ie company house and land buying, visa changes, is either to stem the exponential growth that is about to happen or to facilitate it.

I believe it is to facilitate it.

[theklaz]

Sooo.. does this mean even with all my comapny paper work. work permit etc I can no longer get a 1 Year Multi Entry Non Imm B from Penang??

[Sunbelt Asia]

I phoned Suan Plu today about extending my "Marriage Visa" the officer I spoke to just kept repeating same as last year to each question I asked.

When I asked does the money have to be in the account 3 months in advance and remain untouched until the extension is granted he just repeated for you the same as last year!!

Now I am even more confused!!

The Immigration officer on the phone is "low-level" was the answer I got today, when I asked in person, "why some people were getting conflicting information on visas."

Sooo.. does this mean even with all my comapny paper work. work permit etc I can no longer get a 1 Year Multi Entry Non Imm B from Penang??

Hasn't been the case for awhile. KL however does.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

Can someone please confirm this:

Does my Filippina nanny need to return to the Philipines to get her 90 day visa (and stay there for 90 days before she can return to BKK) or can she go to Penang and get it (and return almost immedialely), and then continue on her 3*30 day Cambodian visa runs, et al.

Thanks

How to keep your Foreign Nanny in Thailand Legally

We have had quite a number of calls and concern by foreign families that were worried about their foreign nanny needing to leave their family in Thailand, because of the visa enforcement. In all cases the nanny was doing a 30 day visa run. Many nannies were Filipinos who were hired because they speak English.

Understandably, many were quite emotional the strain it was causing on their kids and the nanny. When we have helped them, it has been like a heavy box of rocks coming off their shoulder. You can see the joy the nanny and they as an employer can now be legal. We would like to share the requirements and costs.

Requirement

The easiest criteria to meet, is someone must be paying 50,000 Baht personal income tax per year. This ‘someone” can be a foreigner with a work permit or a Thai national. This foreigner or Thai does not need to have a company. For every 50,000 tax paid per year, up to three people can be employed. Example: you paid 200,000 Baht in tax lasy year you can employ three foreigners.

Proof of this income is the last three months of Phor Ngor Dor.1 (Personal Income tax form filed on a monthly basis) and Phor Ngor Dor.91 ( Filed on a yearly basis in March) If you do not have a Phor Ngor Dor.91 because you have not been working in Thailand, this is not a problem.

We also need a copy of the work permit and passport, if it’s a foreign employer.

From the nanny we just need her resume and copy of passport. Later after she gets the WP3, we’ll need a doctor's certificate stating she is in good health (this can be arranged quickly in Thailand and generally costs less than 500 baht and usually does not required any actual exam) as well as three color, 4 by 5 centimeter photos.

Cost

The total cost to get your foreign nanny legal and able to live here, is quite low. The first year, it is only 3,450 Baht per month versus 2,000 Baht per month on a visa run.

The second year, the cost is only 2,425 per month versus 2,000 Baht per month on a visa run.

The Breakdown is this

1st year

Professional Fees

WP3 submission 3,900 Baht

Work permit 6,500 Baht

Work permit revalidation 4,800 Baht

15,200 Baht

Work permit Government 3,400 Baht

First 90 day visa 1, 800 Baht

One year Multi entry 5,000 Baht

2 trips to Penang 12,000 Baht

( Flight, Hotel, taxi)

2 Visa Bus trips 4,000 Baht

41,400 Baht or 3,450 Baht per month

Second year

Work permit renewal 3,900 Baht

Work permit revalidation 4,800 Baht

Total Professional Fees 8,700 Baht

Government fees for WP 3,400 Baht

One Year Multi Entry Visa 5,000 Baht

One Trip to Penang 6,000 Baht

Visa Bus (three trips) 6,000 Baht

29,100 Baht or 2,425 Baht per month

Penalty

Most people were not aware of the danger having a foreign nanny working for them without a work permit.

A person that permits a nanny to work without a required work permit can be punished with imprisonment up to three years and/or a fine up to 60,000 baht.

The penalty for the nanny working without a Thai work permit could also amount to imprisonment not exceeding three months and/or a fine up to 5,000 baht.

Privileges of a Thai Work Permit for the Nanny

• Purchase of vehicle.

• Subscription to Mobile Phone network.

• Opening of Current Bank Account

• Application for Bank Debit Card.

• Application for Visa to travel to another country.(Required by some embassies).

VISA

Some have wondered why the nanny has to leave the country every 90 days by a visa run, even with a work permit. The extension of stay based on business requires a company not a natural person to apply on behalf of the applicant. She is legally able to get a one year multi entry visa with the work permit. ( Outside the country)

Restricted Occupations

A number of foreigners were surprised that we could list “nanny” as the job title.

The Thai Royal Decree in 1973 listed 39 occupations and professions that were then prohibited to aliens. This list has been amended on several occasions by subsequent Royal Decrees, the latest one in 1979.

• Labor

• Work in agriculture, animal breeding, forestry, fishery or general farm supervision

• Masonry, carpentry, or other construction work

• Wood carving

• Driving motor vehicles or non-motorized carriers, except for piloting international aircraft

• Shop attendant

• Auctioning

• Supervising, auditing or giving services in accounting, except occasional international auditing

• Gem cutting and polishing

• Hair cutting, hair dressing and beautician work

• Hand weaving

• Mat weaving or making of wares from reed, rattan, kenaf, straw or bamboo pulp

• Manufacture of manual fibrous paper

• Manufacture of lacquerware

• Thai musical instrument production

• Manufacture of nielloware

• Goldsmith, silversmith and other precious metal work

• Manufacture of bronzeware

• Thai doll making

• Manufacture of mattresses and padded blankets

• Alms bowl making

• Manual silk product making

• Buddha image making

• Manufacture of knives

• Paper and cloth umbrella fabrication

• Shoemaking

• Hat making

• Brokerage or agency work, except in international business

• Dressmaking

• Pottery or ceramics

• Manual cigarette rolling

• Legal or litigation service

• Clerical or secretarial work

• Manual silk reeling and weaving

• Thai character type-setting

• Hawking business

• Tourist guide or tour organization agency

• Architectural work

• Civil engineering work

As you can see “ Nanny” is not a restricted occupation.

Salary

Some employers thought in order to get the nanny a work permit in Thailand they must pay a Filipinos 35,000 Baht. The 35,000 baht monthly salary refers to the amount of money you need in order to get an extension of stay for business. As the employer is a natural person, the nanny cannot even apply for this extension, so it’s not applicable.

By the way even if the employer is a Thai company, the nanny is still able to stay and work in Thailand with an income of even just 10,000 baht a month but without the convenience of extending her permit to stay without having to leave the country every 90 days.

Thai employees

A common misconception by many is in order to apply for a work permit, the employer must employ four Thai employees. This is not true, that it is required. However, if the employer (natural person) does meet this objective. They can employ a foreigner for every four Thai employees, the maximum being three foreigners. If they do meet the criteria, the tax of 50,000 Baht per year for the employer ( natural person) does not apply.

Migrant Workers Registration

This is a special program that the Thai government lets workers from Burma, Laos or Cambodia to register for. Only workers from these three countries are allowed. However be aware the registration period for migrant work permits in 2006 ended this year on March 30th 2006. If your nanny qualifies they are given a special Thai ID and work permit, with no need to travel.

This year, employers were required to pay a deposit of either 10,000 or 50,000 Baht for each migrant hired depending on their ID status.

We look forward to helping your family. You can reach our office at 02-642-0213 Monday to Friday 9 a.m to 6 p.m.

Copyright, 2006 © Sunbelt Asia Co., Ltd

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Sunbelt Asia]

I need some clarification... (hopefully by someone who knows what they are talking about)

...The 65000 Baht, does it have to be strictly "Pension" income, or can it also be investment income as long as you get it every month? Reason I am asking is, I have some rental income and two mortgage incomes from Canada, which add up to a lot more, but they are not Pensions.

Kurt

It can be any type of income

Well ...I'm a little confused...I've chosen this time to change jobs!

So how do I stand as regards my Non im "B"?

I've got all the necessary permits for the current job and the new (large) company will do all the rest. there is a 2 day gap between jobs.

Will I have to leave the country to get a new Non im "B"? If so where will I have to go?

If you had to turn in your work permit and was told you had 7 days to leave the country. You now because of the new rules, will need to go to a Thai Embassy and get a new 90 day visa. You can go to Singapore or KL with the companies paperwork.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[mrchips377]

I do feel sorry for all the younger guys who were enjoying their carefree life in Thailand and now can't afford to stay there. But that's the way of the world, when you get used to something great, someone else takes it away from you ! Nothing stays the same forever, there is an ending to every story.

Anyway now it seems that Thailand is only for the truly committed. I guess for me, over 50, its simple, just always keep $20,000 in a bank account and have enough extra money to live there. This shouldn't be too difficult.

Thailand situations contrasts to my current situation. I am working in Tunisia, these guys just give me a 3 months visa on arrival and to get another 3 months I just take a 1 week vacation out of Tunisia and come back again. Very easy. But of course here is not as an attractive place for the laid back fun loving set as Thailand is. However they do have some fun places e.g Al Hammemet fis a nice beach resort area.

I hope to retire one day in Thailand, I hope by then it hasnt become so inhospitable that it becomes impossible.

Anyway, my next trip is this December, i will introduce a tunisienne friend to the place !

Good luck all you visa seekers.

[micman]

The so called married man’s visa.

This allows the foreign, legal spouse of a Thai national to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. This visa is issued in Bangkok only and, during the waiting period, checks can be made by immigration police at your bank to see if there has been a big cash withdrawal! Local immigration officers will also visit your home to verify that you really do live together as man and wife.

Does this mean I have to go from Chaing Mai to Bangkok to get my 12 month extension?

[rayw]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

Would be nice to be able to trust everyone's word of honour but this we say in England is these days living in "cloud cuckoo land". In my travels I have met as many US crooks as Britsih, french, German, etc. one. So why do your embassy think that the USA has a monopoly on honesty and it's citizens are thus better than other country's citizens, a bit pathetic dont you think. Sorry I am frankly amazed at the naivety of it. Come on get real how many I wonder US folk here in Thailand swear they have a high enough pension when they have none or inxufficiant, hmm maybe just the odd one or two do you think. Sorry this is plain crass naivity. An idealistic view of mankind's honesty. Sure I do believe that probavbly over 70% of folk are very honest but 30% is still a very significant number. Will the US immigration trust me if I swear I have a million pounds and want to live in the USA ??

I must add I am not anti US and have many yankee friends but this is one of those holier than thou attitudes that I do not like. Don't worry the Brits are guilty of this in other areas too. Alll I am saying is we should all be singing from the same hymn book.

Edited October 3, 2006 by rayw

[GPage]

Well, they say life is all about luck and timing. In the past few months, this soon-to-be expat has experienced quite a few changes. I'm hopeful that my plans can still be carried out, but I'd like some input from the community just to ease my concerns.

First of all, the coup appears to have been a positive event. I do understand that historically the Thai system undergoes this type of change every half dozen years or so. Still, you can imagine my concern when the headlines read, "Thailand in midst of coup" in the paper recently. My departure date is tentatively set for December 15th....heading to Thailand for retirement. And now...A COUP?

I feel like I am in the middle of a Woody Allen film.

The more recent changes to the visa requirements seem to be more of an issue with effect than the political situation, though. From what I can tell, it appears that I will not be able to apply for a retirement visa until I have been in country for 90 days and can show the appropriate bank balance during that period. Is that correct? Then, after my first 90 days and once I have exited and returned prior to the end of each 30 day period, I can apply for the retirement visa? If so, here is a question for the group. (I will be staying on Phuket during this time)

Which type of border crossing do you feel is the most efficient, safest way to go? Which country? For how long? Can you do a simple crossing and return immediately? If not, what can I expect as far as accomodations on the other side of the Thai border? What is the cost? Should/can I go alone or is there a need for representation? If I fly, what is the cost? To where?

Ok, that was way more than one question. But, you get the point. I'll be retiring and living with my twin brother, so this is really for both of us.

Any assistance is greatly appreciated, folks.

Thanks,

Gary Page

Phoenix, AZ (USA)

[ssparks111]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

Would be nice to be able to trust everyone's word of honour but this we say in England is these days living in "cloud cuckoo land". In my travels I have met as many US crooks as Britsih, french, German, etc. one. So why do your embassy think that the USA has a monopoly on honesty and it's citizens are thus better than other country's citizens, a bit pathetic dont you think. Sorry I am frankly amazed at the naivety of it. Come on get real how many I wonder US folk here in Thailand swear they have a high enough pension when they have none or inxufficiant, hmm maybe just the odd one or two do you think. Sorry this is plain crass naivity. An idealistic view of mankind's honesty. Sure I do believe that probavbly over 70% of folk are very honest but 30% is still a very significant number. Will the US immigration trust me if I swear I have a million pounds and want to live in the USA ??

I must add I am not anti US and have many yankee friends but this is one of those holier than thou attitudes that I do not like. Don't worry the Brits are guilty of this in other areas too. Alll I am saying is we should all be singing from the same hymn book.

One of the many beauties about being American is that you are raised under the "innocent until proven guilty" idea. We don't claim that someone is a crook and then wait to have him prove it otherwise. This is a cornerstone of the American legal system. During any legal proceeding, all participants simply are required to "swear to tell the truth and nothing but the truth". Same that happens in the embassy. You sign a statement swearing the truth, and that is all that is required. It has nothing to do with "honesty monopolies" or better citizens. It's the American system that everyone is entitled to. If you're not American, then it doesn't apply to you. Get over it!

[Noel]

From what I can tell, it appears that I will not be able to apply for a retirement visa until I have been in country for 90 days and can show the appropriate bank balance during that period. Is that correct?

Any assistance is greatly appreciated, folks.

Thanks,

Gary Page

Phoenix, AZ (USA)

At this time I doubt anyone can tell you with absolute certainty.

If you are so concerned, perhaps you should apply for a Non-Immigrant 'O-A' visa (only available in your home country).

This would then grant you an immediate twelve month stay on arrival.

The only caveat is that it is more arduous (not to mention costly) and time consuming in terms of paperwork, notorizations, criminal record report etc, but at least you would know where you stand from day one.

[EmptyMind]

Enormous shakeup of visa and immigration rules

Most farangs will be affected

The so called retirement visa. [/b]

This allows foreigners aged 50 and over to extend a non-immigrant visa for up to 12 months from the date of the last entry into Thailand. It requires either 800,000 baht in a Thai bank or a combination of cash in the bank and proof of pension paid in the home country. A letter from the respective embassy is required for proof of pension. -- Pattaya Today 2006-10-02

I am going to stay in Thailand between 5 to 9 months. Since I am over 50, I may apply for a retirement visa but the above says that you need a proof of pension. What if you don't have a pension but have long term fixed investments that produce more than the required 65kbaht/month? Will this monthly income be accepted with an embassy letter of proof?

Vagabond; a very good question and I have just started a new thread (Above 50, no pension income but investment income) on it which you can follow. Have a friend in same situation. Cheers!

Yeah same here. My mother and step dad are in Thailand and receive investment income. I wonder how one goes to their Embassy and get a letter on that. What kind of prrof does the embassy asks for? If investment/dividend income is good enough - that might be just fine for my folks.

First of all the word 'pension' should not enter this discussion. Immigration doesn't use the term; why should we? If you're a US citizen you really don't need to prove anything to the US Embassy. You fill out the form and swear that the information is correct. I've talked to many Americans and never have they had to 'prove' the monthly income they listed on the form. This was my experience also. I put down 4K as monthly income and was not asked to 'prove' it.

Thai Immigration IMHO doesn't really care that much about the Embassy letter that confirms income even though they require it. What they REALLY want to see is the lump sum in the bank account or a history of 65K deposits each month. In both cases they want the bank book code to indicate the deposit came from a foreign source. They've caught on to farangs pooling their money and just moving it around.

EDIT: I'm just curious; does the UK Embassy actually make one 'prove' the monthly income?

Of course they care about the Embassy letter and other than the US one which proves nothing and therefore has to be worthless the UK and I believe other European embassies do ask for proof and quite rightly so for a letter to the host government authorities. I have to show my private pension letter confirming my pension and 3 months UK bank statements showing the monthly pension credited and pay the ridiculous high sum of over 1600 Baht

So I do know that if I have the letter showing the 800K or more a year pension (or whatever income) then they do NOT bother about the bank account, this is a fact as I have asked before att he Immigration office and was told this. I wouldn't even need a Thai bank account and just draw my money out using say an ATM card here (something I do sometimes anyway when the rate is poor and I do not want to transfer large sums) I personally need to show between 150K to 200K (depends on exchange race at the time) in my bank account when my visa us due for renewal and this is what I will continue to do to top up my pension letter. If I hear proof that I still need the money in 3 months before to renew my next Visa than I shall have to do this but lets see what happens in real life cases first hmm.

I must say I am astonished that the US embassy are failing in their duties in not asking for proof as this will spoil it for others if it becomes obvious to the Thai authorities that the letter is next to worthless. They will assume then all the other embassies are doing a similar thing and abdicating their responsibilities. Crazy so if I was a US citizen I could swear I had a 2 million baht pension even though I had no pension at all ?? Sorry if this is true it is crass stupidity on the US part, how would they feel if embassies in the US were doing similar waiving of proof. I know how finicky they are on this sort of immigration stuff, they would not like it at all so lets not be hypocritical and maybe spoil this logical, fair and easy option to get the retirement visa here hmm. Maybe they stipulate that making a false statement of income could (and should as it is blatantly dishonest) result in a jail sentence. MUCH better to do what the other embassies do in the first place and get proper proof.

US embassy isn't exactly failing in their duties. For any major dealings I have had with them, be it in Thailand or in China, all I was required to do was swear to the facts and all is good. I did this to get married (swear I wasn't already married or in a divorce), when our baby registered as a US citizen, and other things. No checks were ever done of any kind. Nice to come from a country where they trust your word of honor!

Would be nice to be able to trust everyone's word of honour but this we say in England is these days living in "cloud cuckoo land". In my travels I have met as many US crooks as Britsih, french, German, etc. one. So why do your embassy think that the USA has a monopoly on honesty and it's citizens are thus better than other country's citizens, a bit pathetic dont you think. Sorry I am frankly amazed at the naivety of it. Come on get real how many I wonder US folk here in Thailand swear they have a high enough pension when they have none or inxufficiant, hmm maybe just the odd one or two do you think. Sorry this is plain crass naivity. An idealistic view of mankind's honesty. Sure I do believe that probavbly over 70% of folk are very honest but 30% is still a very significant number. Will the US immigration trust me if I swear I have a million pounds and want to live in the USA ??

I must add I am not anti US and have many yankee friends but this is one of those holier than thou attitudes that I do not like. Don't worry the Brits are guilty of this in other areas too. Alll I am saying is we should all be singing from the same hymn book.

I could not have put it better myself, What stupid kind of system allows you to say whatever you like as long as you "Swear It" . Maybe when they get a bank loan they just "Swear" they will pay it back lol. It's the stupidest thing I have heard in months but then again, you have to consider that compared with most countries the Yankie constitution rubbish is only about a week old so they will make some mistakes before they get it right.

A bit off topic but funny as hel_l.

And as far at this quote "One of the many beauties about being American is that you are raised under the "innocent until proven guilty" idea. " :D Should be changed to "Practice What You Preach"

Edited October 3, 2006 by EmptyMind

[Twin]

Replying to GPage.

In order to get a retirement visa, you must begin with a Non-Immigrant "O" visa, obtained outside Thailand. When I got my RV, I got a 90 day Non-IMM O in Singapore. You might be able to get one in LA. Call the Thai embassy there and tell them what you want to do. 12 month Non_Imm O may also be an option.

http://www.thaivisa.com/318.0.html

(Some people have said they converted tourist visas into RV's but that is not what the rule states. Do it right the first time.

Once in Thailand, bring the money in from the US immediately. I use Bangkok Bank and have been very pleased with their service.

The new rules have not been clearly established. But if I was chasing my first RV, I'd bring more than B1,000,000 in and live off that money, leaving B800,000 after the 90 day period.

If you have the Non-Imm O, you do not have to leave Thailand again and can apply for the RV.

In fact, my Non-Imm O was single entry only.

Stay close to this board and listen only to those who clearly know what they're talking about. ( I am NOT one of them! Take what I have written with a grain of panic)

Listen to Lopburi3, Dr. Patpong, and Sunbelt Asia. The rules could always change and these 3 are closer to the regulations than anyone.

Forget the coup and come on over!

Twin

[Livinginexile]

[Perhaps I'm just jaded, but now that I just spent a bundle of cash to set up an IT consultancy company over here, it seems I might find it difficult to get a work permit to work there! I wasn't planning on any more assignments in Thailand anyway, but I need the WP and salary so I can continue to live with my wife and kids in our house (in her name).]

I think you have it wrong way around, the law here states you must apply for a business/work visa BEFORE you invest in business interests here in Thailand.

What would your country do with an alien working without the correct visa? should Thailand be any different? Do you think you are special?

[pap]

Why are they shooting themselves in the foot, yet again?

Because they do it so well?

Because we have big feet.