Turkey-Russia spat over downed Russian warplane escalates

[webfact]

Turkey-Russia spat over downed Russian warplane escalates
By SUZAN FRASER and VLADIMIR ISACHENKOV

ANKARA, Turkey (AP) — A tug-of-war over a Russian warplane downed by a Turkish fighter jet at the border with Syria escalated Thursday, with Moscow drafting a slew of economic sanctions against Turkey and the Turkish president defiantly declaring that his military will shoot down any new intruder.

The spat reflected a clash of ambitions of two strongman leaders, neither of whom appeared willing to back down and search for a compromise.

Turkey shot down the Russian Su-24 military jet on Tuesday, insisting it had violated its airspace despite repeated warnings. The incident marked the first time in half a century that a NATO member shot down a Russian plane, raising the threat of a military confrontation between the alliance and Moscow.

Russian President Vladimir Putin denounced the Turkish action as a "treacherous stab in the back," and insisted that the plane was downed over Syrian territory in violation of international law.

"Until that moment, we haven't heard a clear apology from Turkey's top political leadership, or an offer to compensate for the damage or a promise to punish the criminals," he said at the Kremlin while receiving credentials from several ambassadors. "It gives an impression that the Turkish leadership is deliberately driving Russian-Turkish relations into a deadlock, and we regret that."

But Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan was in no mood to apologize, and warned that Ankara would act in the same way in the event of another intrusion.

"Faced with the same violation today, Turkey would give the same response," Erdogan said. "It's the country that carried out the violation which should question itself and take measures to prevent it from happening again, not the country that was subjected to a violation."

Erdogan said Turkey had not specifically targeted Russia when it shot down the plane, saying it was "an automatic response" in line with its rules of engagement.

He spoke on a more conciliatory note in separate comments on France 24. Asked if Turkey would still have targeted the plane if it positively knew it was Russian, he said: "If we had determined it, the warnings would have been different."

Speaking later in the Kremlin after the talks with French President Francois Hollande, Putin said he was sorry to hear that Erdogan sees no need to apologize.

"For us, Turkey was not just a neighbor, but a friendly state, almost an ally," he said. "It's very sad to see all of it being destroyed so thoughtlessly and brutally."

The Russian and Turkish leaders are often compared to each other. Both are populist, frequently crack down on critics and often revert to anti-Western rhetoric. They had enjoyed close relations until recently, despite differences over Syria, and regularly exchanged visits. In September, Erdogan traveled to Moscow where he and Putin attended the opening of a new mosque, and they also met separately at the sidelines of the Group of 20 summit hosted by Turkey.

On Thursday, Erdogan told France 24 television in an interview that he had tried talking to Putin but that the Russian leader did not respond.

Turkey has released audio recordings of what it says are the Turkish military's repeated warnings to the pilot of a Russian bomber before it was shot down at the border with Syria.

The recordings, made available to The Associated Press on Thursday, indicate the plane was warned several times that it was approaching Turkey's airspace and asked to change course, but there is no indication of a Russian reply.

In the recordings, a voice is heard saying in broken English: "This is Turkish Air Force speaking on guard. You are approaching Turkish airspace. Change your heading south immediately." The voice gets increasingly agitated as the warnings appear to go unnoticed.

The audio that was released only involved Turkish warnings, no replies by a Russian pilot. It was not clear if Turkey had received any replies from the Russian pilots but did not release them; if the Russian pilots never replied to the warnings; or if the Russians never even heard the warnings.

A Russian airman who survived the shoot-down and was later rescued by the Syrian and Russian commando, denied veering into Turkey's airspace "even for a single second." Turkey insists the plane was in its airspace for 17 seconds.

Capt. Konstantin Murakhtin also said he and his crewmate, who was killed by ground fire after bailing out, hadn't heard any Turkish warnings. The Russian Foreign Ministry dismissed the audio recording released by Ankara as a fake.

Erdogan accused Russia of using its declared goal to fight the Islamic State group in Syria as a pretext to target opposition groups including the Turkmen, in order to shore up Syrian President Bashar Assad.

He also challenged Russia to prove its accusation that Turkey is buying oil and gas from IS, calling the claims "shameful" and even pledging to step down if the claim is proven.

"This is a great disrespect to Turkey and those who make the claims are slanderers," he said. "If they prove it, Tayyip Erdogan would step down."

Commenting on Erdogan's statement, Putin said that at the G-20 summit in Antalya he showed fellow leaders the aerial pictures of convoys of oil trucks carrying the IS oil into Turkey.

"Let's assume that Turkey's political leadership knows nothing about it, it's theoretically possible, albeit hard to believe," he said sarcastically. "There may be elements of corruption and insider deals. They should deal with it."

Putin responded to the plane's downing by ordering the deployment of powerful long-range air defense missiles to a Russian air base in Syria.

On Thursday, Russian state television stations ran a report showing the S-400 missiles already deployed at the Hemeimeem air base in Syria's coastal province of Latakia, just 50 kilometers (30 miles) away from the border with Turkey.

The Russian navy missile cruiser Moskva also moved closer to the shore to help protect Russian warplanes with its long-range Fort air defense system.

The Russian Defense Ministry has warned that the military was prepared to destroy any aerial target that may threaten its warplanes, and announced the severance of all military ties with Turkey.

Concerned by the move, Turkey's High Military Council, which included top government and military leaders, called Thursday for keeping all diplomatic and military channels of communication open to avoid new "undesired" incidents on the Turkey-Syria border.

In addition to the military moves, the Kremlin also acted Thursday to inflict economic pain on Turkey.

Since the plane was downed, Russia has already restricted tourism, left Turkish trucks stranded at the border and announced the confiscation of large quantities of Turkish food imports.

On Thursday, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev ordered a range of economic sanctions against Turkey within the next two days. They will include "restrictions and bans on Turkish economic structures operating in Russian territory, restrictions and bans on deliveries of products, including foodstuffs," as well as on labor and services.

Russia was the biggest source of Turkish imports last year, worth $25 billion, which mostly accounted for Russian gas supplies. It also is the largest destination for Turkish exports, mostly textiles and food, and Turkish construction companies have won a sizable niche of the Russian market.

Erdogan lamented Russia's intention to halt economic cooperation with Turkey, saying political leaders should talk first. "We are strategic partners," he said.
__

Isachenkov reported from Moscow. Nataliya Vasilyeva and James Ellingworth in Moscow contributed.


-- (c) Associated Press 2015-11-27

[Usernames]

The Russian and Turkish leaders are often compared to each other. Both are populist, frequently crack down on critics and often revert to anti-Western rhetoric. They had enjoyed close relations until recently, despite differences over Syria, and regularly exchanged visits. In September, Erdogan traveled to Moscow where he and Putin attended the opening of a new mosque, and they also met separately at the sidelines of the Group of 20 summit hosted by Turkey.

This may be the best thing to happen, diplomatically, since the Iran-Iraq War.

[ezzra]

This Putin guy has met his match with this new ottoman empire wannabe sultan, Russia, that has for many years now invaded the air spaces of several other counties with impunity and don't care attitude, now he's got just another macho man to reckon with, and that ragip tayyip erdogan guy has a set of balls to match any Russian out there, including Putin...

[craigt3365]

"For us, Turkey was not just a neighbor, but a friendly state, almost an ally," he said. "It's very sad to see all of it being destroyed so thoughtlessly and brutally."

Russia treats the ethnic Turks in recently acquired Crimea not as friends. Something that's been causing problems between Russia and Turkey for some time:

http://beta.trtworld.com/turkey/turkish-report-russia-persecuting-crimean-tatars-3428

Report prepared by Turkish academics determines unrecognised Russian Crimean government purposely and persistently violating rights of Crimean Tatars

[retarius]

This is going to cost Erdogan very dear indeed. The rhetoric from NATO has been very muted indeed which means that in private he has little support and NATO know he is a maverick that they cannot trust. This will cost him economically with empty hotel rooms in Turkey. And it will cost him as Russia ramps up the airstrikes on the Turkmen Takfiris in Northern Syria, causing discontent in Turkey as ethnic Turks are cannot be protected. Not shown in today's western news is that yesterday Russia attacked the border in Idlib province and bombed a convoy of vehicles which drove into Syria loaded with weapons to resupply the FSA/Takfiris in northern Latakia. Note that a news paper editor is in court today for exposing the arms trade from Turkey to terrorists (also not in the Western media)

But the biggest issue is that Putin has publicly called Erdodan out on the issue ISIS of oil sales. This is an issue that even the most wilfully blind can understand and cannot be covered up with propaganda as it is so simple to understand it...you can almost hear support for Turkey ebbing away as ordinary people start to realise that Erdogan and Turkey are traitorous snakes secretly supporting IS and funding them. Expect the flow of jihadis through Turkey to stop as well as pressure is applied to them via the EU.

Will Turkey get some public lukewarm support? Yes, the EU needs him to deal with their refugee crisis but the EU also want a bone fide effort against IS which the Saudi/Qatar/US/Turkey coalition is unwilling to supply. Expect to some splits in the grand coalition if there are more terror attacks on European soil as the EU decide that they will not stand for the double dealing of the US coalition.

[MobileContent]

This is going to cost Erdogan very dear indeed. The rhetoric from NATO has been very muted indeed which means that in private he has little support and NATO know he is a maverick that they cannot trust. This will cost him economically with empty hotel rooms in Turkey. And it will cost him as Russia ramps up the airstrikes on the Turkmen Takfiris in Northern Syria, causing discontent in Turkey as ethnic Turks are cannot be protected. Not shown in today's western news is that yesterday Russia attacked the border in Idlib province and bombed a convoy of vehicles which drove into Syria loaded with weapons to resupply the FSA/Takfiris in northern Latakia. Note that a news paper editor is in court today for exposing the arms trade from Turkey to terrorists (also not in the Western media)

But the biggest issue is that Putin has publicly called Erdodan out on the issue ISIS of oil sales. This is an issue that even the most wilfully blind can understand and cannot be covered up with propaganda as it is so simple to understand it...you can almost hear support for Turkey ebbing away as ordinary people start to realise that Erdogan and Turkey are traitorous snakes secretly supporting IS and funding them. Expect the flow of jihadis through Turkey to stop as well as pressure is applied to them via the EU.

Will Turkey get some public lukewarm support? Yes, the EU needs him to deal with their refugee crisis but the EU also want a bone fide effort against IS which the Saudi/Qatar/US/Turkey coalition is unwilling to supply. Expect to some splits in the grand coalition if there are more terror attacks on European soil as the EU decide that they will not stand for the double dealing of the US coalition.

I think the flow will stop also, as Turkish fighters often entering Syria and return to Turkey after their mission.

Putin made it clear that he wants to seal the Syrian - Turkish border and he also said Turkey will not be part of the coalition as they are in bed with ISIS and the Nusrah Front.

Since the killing of the Russian pilot Russia has been bombarding the Turkmens none-stop and Turkey has said nothing. The Defensive Minister of Russia said yesterday their highest priority now is to hunt down the terrorists on the Syrian Turkish border and after that seal the Turkish border.

The Europeans are still in bed with Turkey and since the Turks downed the Russian plane, only around 150 migrants are reaching Greece now on a daily basis which also proofs that Turkey a NATO country was fully behind the migrant crisis by flooding Europe with migrants, because over night it stopped.

I think the development over the next few weeks will be interesting to see.

[Publicus]

Back to the Future.

Or perhaps more like the past is history. That the present and future world moves a hellova lot faster than what most countries and their elites are used to.

The Czar vs. the Sultan

Putin and Erdogan see themselves as heirs to proud empires. But fighter jets and tough talk can’t mask imperial decline.

Before Crimea was Russian, or Ukrainian, or even Soviet, it was Turkish. Well, Ottoman. And Russia had already annexed Crimea once before 2014, long before — in 1783. This was after a six-year war with the Turks.

Which is all to say that what happened yesterday, when the Turks and Russians clashed over who was where when in the skies over a small sliver of land is nothing new in the relations of these two erstwhile empires.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/25/the-czar-vs-the-sultan-turkey-russia-putin-erdogan-syria-jet-shootdown/

All of this hurts the Russian economy which is minus 5 percent this year. With the present efforts of Putin and Lavrov banning exports and imports in bunches, the Russians may hit minus 6 percent. Even if there are only several weeks left in the calendar year. Go guyz!

Before the Nato-EU sanctions Putin had been budgeting for his government based on oil at $100 a barrel. Now Putin is budgeting based on oil at $50 a barrel. When a government hacks its budget by 50% it's a government and a country in the tank. And a sudden lopping off of 50% besides, year-on-year.

In 2016 Putin is likely to find himself slashing the budget by 50% month on month.

Main point is that Putin doesn't have the balls to attack Turkey or to make a military hit against Turkey. No way Putin would take on Nato. Putin's still not in the big leagues. And anyone that starts talking nuclear would be nuttier than Putin himself already is.

[Usernames]

Just a few weeks ago, Putin and Erdogan were great friends and budding allies. Sort of like Hitler and Stalin. That's what happens when you let your countries' fates be determined by egotistical strongmen.

[geriatrickid]

The Europeans are still in bed with Turkey and since the Turks downed the Russian plane, only around 150 migrants are reaching Greece now on a daily basis which also proofs that Turkey a NATO country was fully behind the migrant crisis by flooding Europe with migrants, because over night it stopped.

I think the development over the next few weeks will be interesting to see.

You are reading far more into what is happening than is the reality. Turkey is housing in excess of 2.2 million registered Syrian refugees. The EU has less than 150,000. The number of refugees crossing into Turkey is still high, however, those making it into the EU has dropped off because the situation stabilized in Turkey. The EU is whinging about a recent influx of 100,000 Syrians. Well, what about Turkey that received 1 million in one year? Where was the EU when this was happening? Turkey was overwhelmed. To say that Turkey was behind the migrant crisis was a cop out. Many of the refugees stayed put. Everyday, there are refugees pouring out of North Africa and they are landing in Italy Spain and Greece. That has nothing to do with Turkey. Many of the migrants holding the port of Calais hostage are African and North African. It is up to the French to deal with their problem. They refused to. All of the EU is complicit. There are idiots like the PM of Canada who encouraged the problem by saying these people should be welcomed and then forcing through a billion dollar program to take in 25,000+ within a few of months, which was in effect an open invitation.

The double standard is that hundreds of thousands of legit refugees from Africa and Asia who have waited patiently are now screwed over in favor of political expediency.

[ggt]

These two grown children...arguing over their toys...could start WWIII if they are not careful...this spat is much more serious that it looks on the surface...

[chilli42]

I am sure the ISIS leadership can not believe the streak of good luck they have been having. In this case, they did not have to do a thing and it all fell into place for them.

[Steely Dan]

These are dangerous times, two demagogues don't equal détente. Very unfortunate indeed when the need to get rid of ISIS is so pressing.

[retarius]

I just read in the Guardian that Putin has said that Russia provided the planes' flight plans with the US under the 'deconfliction' scheme. Putin has now publicly questioned whether these flight plans were 'leaked' to Turkey, with the implication that Turkey used them to plot an ambush knowing where the Russian planes would be at what time. Serious accusations indeed, and if true, puts a different complexion on the incident, along with the feeling that this whole Syrian adventure will not end well for anyone.

[craigt3365]

I just read in the Guardian that Putin has said that Russia provided the planes' flight plans with the US under the 'deconfliction' scheme. Putin has now publicly questioned whether these flight plans were 'leaked' to Turkey, with the implication that Turkey used them to plot an ambush knowing where the Russian planes would be at what time. Serious accusations indeed, and if true, puts a different complexion on the incident, along with the feeling that this whole Syrian adventure will not end well for anyone.

An unsubstantiated allegation by Putin. Could prove out to be true, but so far, just an allegation.

Putin also says there are no Russian troops in Ukraine. Just citizens on holiday.

[Lukecan]

The only difference between Putin and Erdogan is that Putin is blonde. They are so alike in every way. But I gotta admit, Erdogan destroyed Putin's long lasting charisma. Putin has acted like a cry baby following the latest events.

[2alex4alex]

The only difference between Putin and Erdogan is that Putin is blonde. They are so alike in every way. But I gotta admit, Erdogan destroyed Putin's long lasting charisma. Putin has acted like a cry baby following the latest events.

It is Erdogan who behave like a coward schoolboy..On kicking big boy run for protection to his brother. What a pussy!

[Publicus]

I just read in the Guardian that Putin has said that Russia provided the planes' flight plans with the US under the 'deconfliction' scheme. Putin has now publicly questioned whether these flight plans were 'leaked' to Turkey, with the implication that Turkey used them to plot an ambush knowing where the Russian planes would be at what time. Serious accusations indeed, and if true, puts a different complexion on the incident, along with the feeling that this whole Syrian adventure will not end well for anyone.

Turkish military are ranked 10th in the world. They know where the Russian fighter bombers take off from, the azimuth heading the planes are taking each and every time, where exactly the Russian and Syrian attack places are headed; when they arrive over target.

There are known centers and depots on the border well recognised over several years as transit areas or centers of commerce both legal and illicit. If the Russian and Syrian jets are headed to mountains hills or highway convoys the Turkish military knows it.

If Putin believed the US were providing info to Turkey so the Turk Air Force could shoot down junk Russian fighter aircraft he'd quit providing the information. Putin would demand public assurances the US wouldn't do it again as a condition of resuming flight info exchanges with US.

The "deconflicting" of flights by US & Coalition fighter/bombers and Russian ones is a top priority of the US and has been so since Russia crashed in on the conflict. The US would be highly unlikely to jeopardise the exchange of deconflicting info.

So let's try to be more discerning about Putin's bullsh*t when we hear it and know it to be exactly that.

[Publicus]

Putin is too much a mindless dictator to recognise or to care that Syria is viewed by Turkey in the same way as Putin sees Ukraine relative to Russia. The hard-staring pro-Islam government in Ankara does see Syria in the same relationship. However, Turkey did not start the civil war in Syria which is what Putin did do in Ukraine.

Syria was a part of the Ottoman Empire and Ukraine belonged to both the tsars and to the Soviet Russia.

Erdogan repeatedly demanded Russia stop bombing ethnic Turks at the border, specifically, the anti-Assad ethnic Turks born in Syria. The generations of ethnic Turks born in Syria had been sliced out of the new Turkey in 1921 by Sykes-Picot. The ethnic Turks who are Syrian nationals oppose Assad, as does Ankara. The world knows Putin has been bombing rebels supported by Turkey and the US & Coalition. Putin's been bombing hell out of Syrian Turks, almost daily.

Now Putin is placing a Russian air defense system at his naval base in Syria that will include southern areas of the Nato defensive perimeter to of course include Turkey.

Memo to Putin: Syria Is Turkey's Ukraine

Now consider how Putin would react if the U.S. or North Atlantic Treaty Alliance decided to get involved militarily in eastern Ukraine, placing an airbase and Patriot missile batteries 50 miles from the Russian border. Picture NATO aircraft providing airpower for an all-out Ukrainian ground assault against the Russian-backed rebels, aided by troops from Poland and Chechnya (in Syria's case, that's Iran and Hezbollah). Imagine Turkish and American jets flying into Russian airspace as they try to optimize their bombing runs.

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-27/memo-to-putin-syria-is-turkey-s-ukraine

It could seem Putin has a double standard. Putin however has no standards. Only Putin's Rules.