กรงใจ (gruung jai),(saving face)= (mind cage)

[WaiLai]

กรงใจ (gruung jai) is a cultural Thai word that seems to have no exact/direct translation in English. The basic concept of it is “to be considerate or to feel bad/uneasy when doing something that may cause trouble to others”. The notion of “saving face” is what the practice tends to be defined as being.

Oddly enough, when you key-in "กรงใจ" to Google Translate it translates to “mind cage”.

This weeks demonstration in front of the US Embassy by a staggering “dozens of people” may have been more of a statement being made about the need for foreigners to respect กรงใจ (gruung jai). They certainly weren't suggesting that everyone should be jailed for extraordinary periods of time for peacefully expressing their opinion! Were they? It isn't likely that they had been paid and bussed in for someone else's benefit. Is it?

One online Thai front page article was titled “Friendly words sought from U.S. Ambassador”. A perfect example of “CYA” through “gruungjai”.

The western practice of putting the truth ahead of other considerations such as someone being inconvenienced or put in an uncomfortable position are very difficult for certain non-westerners to fathom. Lying is considered totally unacceptable to the majority of westerners, and the truth is upheld as a sacrosanct principle in our public institutions. We have oaths to swear in court that confirm this: “... tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help me...”.

Having lived in Cambodia and researching it's legal system, I discovered that an oath to tell the truth is typically sworn to Buddha, the spirits of the courtroom, or the ghosts of famous Khmer warriors. The wording threatens dire punishments for those who would testify falsely:

"If I am home, let fire destroy my house for 800 reincarnations; if I am in a boat, let it sink for 800 reincarnations; when I become a ghost, let me eat bloody pus, or swim in boiling chili oil for 800 reincarnations."

But wait a second.... Thailand's prevailing religion is Buddhism isn't it? Why can't I find a similar Thai “oath to tell the truth”?

Yes, I find the translation of the Thai practice of “กรงใจ" (mind cage) an apt translation. It may also explain why it has been so difficult to bring Thailand out of “developing world” economic status, on a road to democracy and with an education system embracing international standards.

The pain and suffering caused by the practice of “กรงใจ" (mind cage) as well as the dependency to keep it “in place” will haunt this country for decades as it try's to snuggle up to ASEAN, TPP and other trading partners.

I'd love the opportunity to be enlightened by progressive Thai academics in these matters, but I'm afraid they may have all been rounded-up by now!

Until then, I won't give up hope, nor will I submit to the stultifying “mind cage”.

[jspill]

It's เกรงใจ greng jai, just missed out the first character เ.

So no 'cage' part in there.

But yeah agree in general that Thais' fear of offending can hold them back in many situations.

Edited November 28, 2015 by jspill

[WaiLai]

It's เกรงใจ greng jai, just missed out the first character เ.

So no 'cage' part in there.

But yeah agree in general that Thais' fear of offending can hold them back in many situations.

I appreciate the correction in spelling required, I copy pasted it into Google Translate and sure enough it translated to what you stated.

However, I still feel a strong sentiment towards the initial translation of "mind cage". I am wondering how one might explain away the difference?

[jspill]

Greng (not sure why Thai2English writes it 'grayng') is a kind of awe-filled fear.

Not that one is 'scared' per se, but more the same kind of fear we'd have of telling our mother's they're wrong, as a child. A fear stemming from awe or respect.

Then jai can be mind but it's mostly used for 'heart' (mind is 'jit jai') and Thai language puts that at the end of words all the time, like 'suprised' = unusual heart, 'understand' = go into heart.

Could think of it in terms of them having their hands tied by an over-importance on showing respect. Which is reflected in the country's lack of free speech, the defamation laws, etc.

Edited November 28, 2015 by jspill

[WaiLai]

Greng (not sure why Thai2English writes it 'grayng') is a kind of awe-filled fear.

Not that one is 'scared' per se, but more the same kind of fear we'd have of telling our mother's they're wrong, as a child. A fear stemming from awe or respect.

Then jai can be mind but it's mostly used for 'heart' (mind is 'jit jai') and Thai language puts that at the end of words all the time, like 'suprised' = unusual heart, 'understand' = go into heart.

Could think of it in terms of them having their hands tied by an over-importance on showing respect. Which is reflected in the country's lack of free speech, the defamation laws, etc.

I have truly appreciated the opportunity to meet someone of your intellectual prowess and sensibilities.

Thank you very much for responding.

All the best to you and yours.

*my apologies for not saying this in Thai but I would simply butcher the language by speaking only what I know (which is street Thai)

Edited November 28, 2015 by WaiLai

[NickJ]

Fearful respect.....Thats what I read about it. Also that there are levels or circles of it.

[phuketsub]

I don't really like all the negative connotations to the term เกรงใจ. It has its upsides too. The older (and hopefully more respected) you become, you will start to be on the receiving end of เกรงใจ sentiments, actions and (just as frequently) non-actions. I will admit it can sometimes go too far, and it can be a negative factor in the education system, but I would say it's better overall to have it than have the prevailing situation in the West, where elders seem to be the only demographic left that can be treated with outright derision with no fear whatsoever of reprisal by the otherwise omnipresent political correctness police.

[Sheryl]

This is not so much a linguistic issue as a cultural one.

The phrase/concept has several levels of possible meaning. Literally translated it means fear of another person's feelings, i.e. fear of offending, upsetting or inconveniencing someone. When applied in that manner, it approximates what in my culture would be called "being considerate". So far so good.

The problem is that in practice it often gets applied not just to fear of actually causing someone else a problem but also to being party to an interaction in which someone else's displeasure or inconvenience is expressed or visible. Hence a Thai may refrain from telling someone something they really need to know, or even outright lie about it, even though the end result of this deception will be far more problems for the person they are "เกรงใจ" of. In that instance it does not equal what in the West we would call being considerate, in fact far from it since one is putting one's own potential discomfort ahead of the other person's welfare. But the same term is used.

So really it can be fear of offending/inconveniencing but it can also be fear of having to witness another person's displeasure....and it can be a reason for causing someone great offense or inconvenience, as long as you do not have to be there to see it.

Hence the promises to come or do something at a certain time or day, causing you to stay home waiting, when in fact there was no intention to come...and you may have canceled other obligations on this account, incurring far more inconvenience than had they simply told the truth to begin with. But in the latter instance they would have had to see a look of possible annoyance or disappointment on your face, whereas in the former case although you are far more upset, they are safely away and don't have to see it. This is turn speaks to the strong value placed on maintaining a harmonious appearance to all social interactions, no matter what is going in under the surface.

[naboo]

I always took it as "to be considerate".

But then I was out with a wealthy Thai who was paying for a rather expensive meal for a group of us, some Thai, some foreign. The foreigners all looked at the menu saw the prices, ordered a bottle of water and one of the cheapest dishes with rice. Food arrived, we had beer and wine being sent our way, the Thais had ordered lobster at several thousant baht a plate amongst other dishes and were sending them our way. We, the foreigners, thought this was incredibly inconsiderate but I later learnt that we were being inconsiderate in suggesting that the person paying was not wealthy enough to afford the meal or by not letting her show "nam jai" to us.

I'll never truly understand.

[Alration]

It doesn't really translate to the meaningless "mind cage", that's just what the ridiculous Google Translate produces, nonsense most of the time.

[WaiLai]

It doesn't really translate to the meaningless "mind cage", that's just what the ridiculous Google Translate produces, nonsense most of the time.

I don't think that the term "mind cage" is meaningless at all!

In fact, it seems a delectable metaphor for those moments when one choses to not say what one thinks or to say what amounts to a lie.(some might try to debate the worthiness of such a practice but in the eyes of those who are seeking the truth it is nothing less in the long run than a practice that is "self-serving".

In fact, the practice is quite akin to "wilful self-lobotomy" or temporarily "caging ones mind".

Edited November 29, 2015 by WaiLai

[WaiLai]

This is not so much a linguistic issue as a cultural one.

The phrase/concept has several levels of possible meaning. Literally translated it means fear of another person's feelings, i.e. fear of offending, upsetting or inconveniencing someone. When applied in that manner, it approximates what in my culture would be called "being considerate". So far so good.

The problem is that in practice it often gets applied not just to fear of actually causing someone else a problem but also to being party to an interaction in which someone else's displeasure or inconvenience is expressed or visible. Hence a Thai may refrain from telling someone something they really need to know, or even outright lie about it, even though the end result of this deception will be far more problems for the person they are "เกรงใจ" of. In that instance it does not equal what in the West we would call being considerate, in fact far from it since one is putting one's own potential discomfort ahead of the other person's welfare. But the same term is used.

So really it can be fear of offending/inconveniencing but it can also be fear of having to witness another person's displeasure....and it can be a reason for causing someone great offense or inconvenience, as long as you do not have to be there to see it.

Hence the promises to come or do something at a certain time or day, causing you to stay home waiting, when in fact there was no intention to come...and you may have canceled other obligations on this account, incurring far more inconvenience than had they simply told the truth to begin with. But in the latter instance they would have had to see a look of possible annoyance or disappointment on your face, whereas in the former case although you are far more upset, they are safely away and don't have to see it. This is turn speaks to the strong value placed on maintaining a harmonious appearance to all social interactions, no matter what is going in under the surface.

So, as you have described it, it is a self-serving practice and quite a dysfunctional one on the world stage. The saddest aspect of this practice is that it is regarded by those that practice it as "sacrosanct" and to heck with those who don't believe in it's worthiness. That smells of xenophobia!

[Sheryl]

It can be self-serving but it can also be quite selfless, depends on how it is practiced.

Perhaps the best way to explain it is that it as commonly used in Thailand it can either mean "concern for the other person's feelings" OR "fear of the other person's reaction" and which one depends on the individual.

It often gets entwined with another cultural feature which is the emphasis on social hierarchy and that can (from my Western viewpoint anyhow) muddy the waters quite a bit. Much more กรงใจ felt and displayed towards those who are "higher" in status and this can sometimes be taken to extreme lengths and to the exclusion of all other considerations.

The most common example being the great unwillingness of many employees to ask questions of, or refer problems to, their supervisor, no matter how obviously necessary it may be to do so. When one is getting poor service from a Thai company or establishment this is often the dynamic at work: the person you are dealing with does not have the necessary knowledge or authority to do what you need and they would rather disappoint/lose a customer than "bother" their supervisor.

[Richard W]

Greng (not sure why Thai2English writes it 'grayng') is a kind of awe-filled fear.

Because the vowel is longer than it would be if the word were written เกร็ง. It's slightly confusing, because the short and long vowels are both shorter than the corresponding closest English vowels.

[AbeSurd]

This is not so much a linguistic issue as a cultural one.

The phrase/concept has several levels of possible meaning. Literally translated it means fear of another person's feelings, i.e. fear of offending, upsetting or inconveniencing someone. When applied in that manner, it approximates what in my culture would be called "being considerate". So far so good.

The problem is that in practice it often gets applied not just to fear of actually causing someone else a problem but also to being party to an interaction in which someone else's displeasure or inconvenience is expressed or visible. Hence a Thai may refrain from telling someone something they really need to know, or even outright lie about it, even though the end result of this deception will be far more problems for the person they are "เกรงใจ" of. In that instance it does not equal what in the West we would call being considerate, in fact far from it since one is putting one's own potential discomfort ahead of the other person's welfare. But the same term is used.

So really it can be fear of offending/inconveniencing but it can also be fear of having to witness another person's displeasure....and it can be a reason for causing someone great offense or inconvenience, as long as you do not have to be there to see it.

Hence the promises to come or do something at a certain time or day, causing you to stay home waiting, when in fact there was no intention to come...and you may have canceled other obligations on this account, incurring far more inconvenience than had they simply told the truth to begin with. But in the latter instance they would have had to see a look of possible annoyance or disappointment on your face, whereas in the former case although you are far more upset, they are safely away and don't have to see it. This is turn speaks to the strong value placed on maintaining a harmonious appearance to all social interactions, no matter what is going in under the surface.

Kudos to Sheryl. This is the best explanation of greng-jai I've ever read.

[desi]

เกรงใจ is a subject that held much interest for me, so with help from a trusted Thai teacher, I spent hours trying to suss it out: Thai Culture: Understanding Greng Jai

And here's another take on it by Sean (new Thai blogger): ความเกรงใจ – The Elusive and Enigmatic Concept That Foreigners Just Can’t Wrap Their Heads Around

I believe that if you live in the country, it's an important concept to understand (even if you only vaguely get there).

[tgeezer]

I get my info from an old dictionary so may not be useful.

เกรง is a transitive verb: ผมไม่ได้บอกเพราะเกรงว่าเขาจะเดือดร้อน

Being the cause of someone being เดือดร้อน is the very thing which you being เกรงใจ avoids. So in the above example: ผมเกรงใจ describes how I feel. เกรงใจ is intransitive but it doesn't stop me giving more info. ผมเกรงใจก็ไม่บอกเขา explains in what way I was restrained. ผมเกรงใจเขา the person I am fearful of upsetting.

I suspect that the 'law of proximity' would make ผมเกรงใจว่าเขาจะเดือดร้อน possible too. There is no need to be too pedantic about definitions. เกรงขาม appears to be to not have the courage to confront the situation. Probably more applicable to the case of agreeing to a meeting with no intention of turning up.