TM28/TM30 avoiding fines if on extensions.

[LivinLOS]

As this ended up a TL:DR I would say for anyone on extensions and 90 day reports.. Go tell them you have been out of town, insist on doing the TM28.. If they demand your landlord, tell them nicely his compliance is none of your business, you cant force a Thai to do what you want.

============
OK so I strongly suspect this is going to be one of those 'no right answer' type situations as it was abundantly clear most frontline immigration staff didnt know either the rules or exactly how to apply the rules in interpretation.. So all I can do is list my experience and how I skirted being fined, point out the huge glaring holes in the system, and add to the general fund of experiences.

I heard before the weekend, from a guy who went to do his 90 day report, and got fined 2000 for not having reported his address, even tho its the same address as his extension was done from !! In fact, the fine was levied against his wife. Yet they were in a rented house. My assumption is perhaps the contract was in the wifes name making her responsible. I didnt discuss it in detail and to be frank it sounded like he just grumpily paid and didnt ask too much either.

I then see a notice yesterday stating that fines would be levied (at reporting or extension times) and as I have a 90 day due on the 3rd.. Thought I would go hear it from the horses mouth direct. All of the following is from Chiang Mai airport office. Also of note is my personal situation where I just moved house, so have a fresh lease dated Nov 1 which helped me cover.

Of course responses are only as I remember and paraphrased

========================

First into the main office.. The 'student helpers' offer assistance but are clueless of a TM28 or TM30.. TM7 ?? 90 day report ?? erm no.. They call to the row behind of actual immigration staff / ladies.. They too had no idea what either form was, or what it was for or who it was for.. I explained people were beng fined and I was there to make sure I was in compliance.. One kept repeating 'samsip baad' and I politely corrected to 'yiisip baad' and she kept repeating it as TM38... After a few minutes of them all coming to the general idea that no one had a clue on address reporting they said to go to building 3 out behind.

Here I lucked out, I came in while they were in laughter and jokes, there was some fun and games while one passed the buck to another more english speaker, who I managed to get a laugh from, and with the right balance of subservient head bobbing and getting some more laughter about being guessed as being on retirement when I am still closer to a decade from it, everyone was in a good mood. It shouldnt come down to needing to grovel or catch them in a happy moment to not get fined but thats how it is.

The officer I discussed this with was clued up, knew the rule, and almost ready to jump on covering the reasons why fines could be placed.. but as the conversation went on, it was clear they havent thought this through well.

When I said there was a 'new rule' she instantly jumped on the fact this wasnt new at all.. Pulling out a new printed pamphlet in english one side and Thai the other.. On the Thai side it said the law was from the immigration act 2552 so I carefully backtracked and said OK so its new enforcement of a 6 year old law.. She then looked confused at the paper work and said no this law much older than that.. ohh they have printed it wrong.. So they are informing people of the 1979 law, saying its a 2009 law.. At which point she conceded it is new enforcement. I guess the paper was printed just to 'prove' the 'old' law and give an easier route to fines.

I then (you will see why later) diverted from my personal issue to when you need to report.. She said within 24h.. I asked every time ?? No we dont intend to be strict.. OK but I have been in hua hin for 2 weeks (lie) so is 2 weeks ok ?? No it isnt.. 2 weeks is too long.. So what amount of time is OK, if I go to pai for 2 nights do I need to go to immigration in mae hong song.. This level of detail they clearly dont know.. She said "oh we dont intend to be too strong" but I then thanked her, said its lovely they dont intend to be strong, but as I do things 100% legal, what is the law.. Much vagueness, squirming, and avoiding the huge elephant in the room which is you cant be expected to report every 24h hotel night away, despite the law saying that and the system they have made. Anyway this was useful for me..

I explained I was there to do my legal reporting.. That I was such a good boy and always did the letter of the law.. She said I had to go get my landlord and bring him.. I said that was impossible, he was busy, and I wasnt responsible for him, and I couldnt make him do anything.. And I was there to do MY reporting.

She explained I couldnt do my reporting until he had done it also, otherwise 'it wouldnt link up' on the computer.. I inferred from this and other statements she made that this will make online 90 day reports 'not work' too.

Again she said how lenient she would be with me, and if I could bring my landlord in the next few days, it would all be ok.. I explained I had to do a 90 day report in the next couple of days, and I wasnt going to pay a fine at 90 day report time, for not reporting within 24h, when here I was to do so.. I repeated that I didnt control my landlord, the last time I spoke he was in pattaya, also explained my old landlord lived in switzerland, and pointed out that I am not responsible for the actions of my Thai landlords. I was there to do MY reporting, they want to chase my landlord, invent a system for that, but I cant control him, hes a judge, I have only ever met him twice, hes busy mon to fri, often in other provinces for weeks and its not my business.. How can I report within 24h and control a Thai whose working those hours ?? I was there for my legal reporting (and its clear heres where the holes in the system come up). She still friendly pointed out judge or not, he must follow the law and if he didnt come, he would be chased and pay double fine, I just stonewalled saying thats great, but his reporting is not something I can control. I would not be getting my landlord to come, I had my 90 day report to make, and I needed to register my TM28 so I didnt get fined.. His TM 30 is his problem.

By now she was a bit more stressed at that, kept repeating that doing a TM28 without the TM30 it 'wont link together' in the system.. But now she finally starts to look at my lease and other docs. My lease is dated Nov 1 and she started to try to use that as cause for me having to pay the fine.. The whole '24 hours to do it' from before came back.. I explained I actually have 2 rental houses, I rented this one and needed a month to move and have them make a kitchen (half truth) and only started to use it yesterday (lie).. I then threw in the mix what I said before that I have been in hua hin for the last 2 weeks (lie) and she had just told me, if I had been away 2 weeks the clock restarted. So I have just returned from my friends house in hua hin and here I was to report. So shes giving me the look that says "I know your lying, but I am conditioned to not question a lie that cant be shown to be false"..

You can see the holes in this whole system already..

She takes my lease to the big boss over one side, who seems decently smiley from before still, and he nods and agrees and she comes back and ever so graciously like I should be so thankful they are bending the rules, says I will be permitted to do my compulsory reporting (aint that nice of them) but kept repeating that 'it wont link'.. She also said other visa classes like ED visas wouldnt process the 90 day extensions if 'they didnt link' and I think heres where i thought the 90 day online reporting may not work too..

She then comes with TM28 and a TM30.. Again pushing for me to bring my landlord back there.. I said hes too busy, I dont know him etc etc.. She said OK but what about an agent ?? Did I use an Agent ?? Or how about his wife.. I explained this was a business deal, I dont know the guy, I dont know if he has a wife, we are not friends or social, I rent a house, I pay him by bank.. You could see that Thai thinking that if you rent a house, you have a relationship with the landlord.. She then said it could be any body, doesnt matter, she joked even his gik, can you get his gik to come ? playing around.. So I countered with, well if its anybody, can I do his TM30 for him.. That got an odd look of puzzlement, back to the big boss.. And no.. I cant do it for the landlord, but anybody else can do it for the landlord (well thought through huh ??) so the TM30 according to that office, can be done by 'anyone else' except the farang who gets fined 2000 baht if he tries to do his 90 day report with the pair of them not done ?!?!

So end result, they issued me a TM28 stamped.. But kept telling me it 'wouldnt work' and 'would not link' until the other party does theirs.. Well as I dont give a hoot about anything other than not being fined, it sure seems to have 'worked' enough for me.. Clearly she felt I could or should have been fined if I didnt have a fresh lease to play off, and to have used the lie of being in hua hin for 2 weeks and just having returned. The tone was friendly but very much I should be grateful for them 'letting me off' not having my landlord do something ?!?!

Whats totally backwards is they want to link the TM28 and TM30, and they were highly resistant to allowing me the privilege of doing a TM28, but the system says you have to do this after 24 hours ?? So what every homestay, every hotel, every visit to a mate or family legally requires a TM 28.. But theres no way as a farang I can force each of those home dwelling or hotel owners to accompany me to immigration to do the TM30. Its just a nuts system that wont hang together in that implementation. You cant make the 28 report, something that causes 2000b fines, and needing the 30 report also..

Other points.. She said this had nothing to do with collecting income taxes on rental income.. They had no interest in that at all.. The Army has told immigration, they had to invent a system to have tight(er) control on where farangs stay at all times. The odd thing is, this is only being applied through the process of 90 day reporting or extensions so its only going to work on a fraction of farangs (bad system to start with) and they are apparently using the pressure of fining farangs, to push their accommodation providers into compliance (hardly fair). The whole time she was still friendly, not scowling and grumpy like some, but the very fact you need to charm a friendly officer to avoid being fined for something someone else has to be involved to do, seems very backward and unenforceable.

==================

Ohh should add.. Once I had my TM28 I then tried to do my 90 day report at the airport office.. The officer was (at 11:45) reading his paper and told me to come back after 1 but I had stuff to be doing locally an was grateful not to go to promenada so that wasnt a problem, I returned well after then, maybe 2:30 and he sure was looking out for the TM28 despite the officers processing extensions not knowing, he VERY much did.. Again, without it I feel I would definitely have been fined. He was also no genius, took a full few minutes to explain the old 90 day paper which expired in August, was not 'over' as he kept bluntly repeating while jabbing his finger at it.. It was old and I had been out of the country when it expired.. He really couldnt grasp that simple thing for ages.. 'Over.. OVER'.. jab jab..

I also so wanted to sneak a photo, because behind the counter was 7 ladies in pink shirts.. Chief lady in black middle back, and 2 or 3 helpers.. and not one of them were servicing customers.. 3 groups of 2 were having a natter, one was playing with her phone, the chubby khatoey one had her hands behind her head looking at the ceiling.. Honestly not a single one was actively working or processing either paperwork or people.. And the roomful of people were just sitting there waiting for the privilege of being seen.

So I now have a passport with a stapled in arrival card.. Stapled in TM28.. Stapled in 90 day report.. 3 bits of paper from totally separate systems... Welcome to the digital age !!

Edited December 1, 2015 by LivinLOS

[daoyai]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

[expatbrit]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

Its a "wonderful" rant!

I gave up reading after the second paragraph !

[LivinLOS]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

hehe as do I..

Yeah it became a TL:DR.

They will be out to fine people is my vibe.. Despite all the "aint we nice for letting you off" it took a lot of careful lies and obfuscation..

[MESmith]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

I skipped to your comment after reading the first line. I've got a drink

[terminatorchiangmai]

Sound like an old friend of mine , stopped listening to him long time ago.

[daoyai]

I am motivated by self interest ...as in, I am not married, I rent a condo... what about me? .... I did enjoy the staff descriptions though, sometimes the obsurdest comedy available at Imm. lessens the pain of being there.

[Thailand]

Smile and nod!

[LivinLOS]

I am motivated by self interest ...as in, I am not married, I rent a condo... what about me? .... I did enjoy the staff descriptions though, sometimes the obsurdest comedy available at Imm. lessens the pain of being there.

The way they say it EVERYONE must now be doing a TM28 (with it having a matched TM30).. But from todays talking it would seem the enforcement of this happens with 90 day reports, any extension, 90 day language EDs especially mentioned multiple times and other immigration interaction. Jomtien posters reporting that they got fined when they asked for a residency letter from driving license and no TM28 done prior.

If your just on visa runs, visa exempt entries, tourist visas, or multiple entry non imms I dont see how this fining will be enforced. Perhaps adding 30 days to your 60 ??

But the way they have all new paperwork fresh printed to justify the fines.. The way she made it like how nice to be forgiven.. I am betting TM28 fines are going to start happening. But its a mess of a system in design from todays information.

15 years here and todays the first time I ever did one.. I will not pay fines for new enforced stuff backdated, simply a money grab and you dont beat me..

Forgot from the OP too.. she confirmed a yellow house book address verification does not have any bearing on your TM28 address reporting.

[MadMac]

The whole thing does not make sense. Why did you have the old 90 days report after reentry? This is given back when leaving the country. You get a new arrival card when you come back in and that's required for subsequent 90 day reports. So looks like something went completely wrong and you threw them out of their script.

[LivinLOS]

The whole thing does not make sense. Why did you have the old 90 days report after reentry? This is given back when leaving the country. You get a new arrival card when you come back in and that's required for subsequent 90 day reports. So looks like something went completely wrong and you threw them out of their script.

1 TM28 is nothing to do with TM47 90 day reporting.. Its another layer they have dreamed up or rather started to enforce.

2 I have never had a 90 day report paper removed from my passport on leaving the country.. they have always left it in and I always sent it with my next postal report, despite being expired, it never caused an issue as the stamps showed a new entry. I was told to always send the old one in the past but guessed it was sort of not needed.

TM28 is a new reporting.. and its my feeling they are going to be handing out fines.. the whole landlord coming with you is just dumb and I refuse to play. To be honest the 90 day report thing confused no one except the old boy at that stage. the TM28 is the crucial part and she was very much trying to make it late / my fault / due a fine.

[MadMac]

Yeah, weird, not surprising though really. In BKK they collect the 90 days report, last time in CNX too. But I usually fly from BKK and use domestic down there. Never went in person for 90 days in CNX, always by mail, never had an issue.

[nidieunimaitre]

I read the whole thing..... i need a drink.

Its a "wonderful" rant!

I gave up reading after the second paragraph !

Don't expect us to read YOUR rant after you get fined for not being aware of the latest hoop.

[hml367]

The foreigner's report used to in the same building at the old airport road location where 90 day reports were done, just to the left when driving in. The report, as has been mentioned, is not new. Only enforcement may be new. All reports in that office were very fast.

Some people I was aware of moved to Chiang Mai from other parts of Thailand and the world. They complained - it has been all downhill since then, in my opinion.

[nidieunimaitre]

I've been reading all the many threads about these TM's, and I am none the wiser.

TM 30 is for reporting the foreigner's address.

It is the responsibility of the hotel, the condo manager, the house owner (could be the wife) or the foreigner that owns a condo.

However some %#@&{ try to put the responsibility in the shoes of the foreigner.

Correct?

And then there is the TM 28.

On top of the TM 30?

Same thing, but this time to be submitted by the foreigner?

Recently we came back to Thailand.

After 2 weeks we decided to do a TM 30.

(I stay in my own house, legally of course my wife's house)

No problem with 2 weeks (in stead of 24 hours) and no mentioning of TM 28.

[brommers]

Jesus there is a lot of hot air here. If you don't, or the house owner does not fill in the forms as required there will be problems. Immigration is tightening up on what was a badly managed situation. We are living in a country ruled by a military dictatorship that will impose the rules. Get used to it. My house owner did not bother to follow the rules and got fined. Why should I care?

[MadMac]

There are no rules. Just experience. Different places, different s*it happens.

[LivinLOS]

After spending only half an hour heres my best guesses at a moving target..

I've been reading all the many threads about these TM's, and I am none the wiser.

TM 30 is for reporting the foreigner's address.
It is the responsibility of the hotel, the condo manager, the house owner (could be the wife) or the foreigner that owns a condo.
However some %#@&{ try to put the responsibility in the shoes of the foreigner.
Correct?

Yes correct.. Its the landlords requirement but they appear to be fining farang wives, as a kind of nominee householder representitive.. As a way to force the farang to drag the landlord in and make them do it..

And then there is the TM 28.
On top of the TM 30?
Same thing, but this time to be submitted by the foreigner?

Yes and clearly according to old but unenforced laws.. this IS our responsibility..

Recently we came back to Thailand.
After 2 weeks we decided to do a TM 30.
(I stay in my own house, legally of course my wife's house)
No problem with 2 weeks (in stead of 24 hours) and no mentioning of TM 28.

Just do what I did.. Say you have been away travelling in Thailand and just come home.. In the last 24h need to do it.. Its not like they can prove you wrong.

Anyone is welcome to scoff, to ignore it, maybe it wont be enforced or the grace period will work, or it gets dropped, or whatever.. But personally I hate getting stung for things I feel are morally not fair, making up a new system and then without telling anyone retrospectively asking for fines, while they dont really know how they want to do it anyway.. It comes under trickery to me.. Its not the 2k fine, its the fact that by paying that fine I would feel cheated and it would annoy me far more than the small cost. I understand others are different and that they would rather just go along with it than the complexity of complying. Honestly if she was a problem today I would drive to the border at a far higher cost and waste of time, to reset my clock, simply as I will not pay a fine at my 90 day while complying with every lame idea they dream up.

Plus I like to understand how they work, or what they are trying to work.

[naboo]

Anybody have a link to the statute of limitations on these laws?

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Yes.. We just submitted my TM30 using their ancient computer system that will only work properly with a prehistoric version of Internet Explorer.

But this is the first I hear of a TM28 form. I looked it up and it seems a change of address form. I get the feeling that the OP needlessly over-complicated everthing with stories of two addresses he lives at.

I think normally the hotel or condo or landlord of the place you stay at fills in their TM30 (their requirement) and that's it?

Edited December 1, 2015 by WinnieTheKhwai

[nidieunimaitre]

Jesus there is a lot of hot air here. If you don't, or the house owner does not fill in the forms as required there will be problems. Immigration is tightening up on what was a badly managed situation. We are living in a country ruled by a military dictatorship that will impose the rules. Get used to it. My house owner did not bother to follow the rules and got fined. Why should I care?

QUOTE >>>>> Why should I care? <<<<<

I am not saying that you should care.

You were lucky that they fined your house owner.

That is how it should be, not your problem.

In a different thread there was however a report of the renter being fined.

And there is the TM 28.

Of course many expats have no choice: they burned their bridges.

As Jingthing advises: in life you have to bend, carry vaseline.

But Thailand may lose the ones that do have a choice!

[MadMac]

And than that are those of us who actually own their house, such as a condo or by usufruct. So one becomes fined as owner or what? Complete bullocks. I will ignore this unless something more tangible comes up. Need more water down the Ping and the reservoirs are pretty empty....

Edited December 1, 2015 by MadMac

[naboo]

Yes.. We just submitted my TM30 using their ancient computer system that will only work properly with a prehistoric version of Internet Explorer.

But this is the first I hear of a TM28 form. Where does one get that and fill it in?

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/download/tm28.doc

It says you can do at the local police.

So in order to comply, I am going to visit the wife's folks in Baan Nork for the Father's day weekend. There is no immigration office within 200km. I have to get her Dad to come with me to the local police, who will be drowning in Lao Kao, to report me as staying with him for a few days using TM30, and I need to report my change of address using TM28, within 48hrs of arrival.

On returning home to my wife's house, my wife needs to report my arrival, and I need to report my change of address within 48hrs to the local police here as there is no immigration office in my local area.

As long as I can get the police to do their jobs, all is good, right? I'll have the appropriate slips, and I'll have a few shots of Lao Khao with the police in Baan Nork.

[LivinLOS]

Yes.. We just submitted my TM30 using their ancient computer system that will only work properly with a prehistoric version of Internet Explorer.

But this is the first I hear of a TM28 form. I looked it up and it seems a change of address form. I get the feeling that the OP needlessly over-complicated everthing with stories of two addresses he lives at.

I think normally the hotel or condo or landlord of the place you stay at fills in their TM30 (their requirement) and that's it?

To preface with the 'who really knows'... and say again, theres no wrong answers just many variable officers versions of it..

But doing your 90 day report online is not the same (isnt a TM47 ??) and a different system from the old but new enforcement of TM28/30..

I dont think I over complicated it.. The 2 addresses only came up when I was trying to justify not being fined for coming in in 24 hours (her leniency in 'allowing' me to report late on this new set of rules not withstanding) after my new lease started.. The 'well I have 2 leases but I wasnt 'in' that one' excuse..

The guy I heard this from last week was doing his 90 days.. and is on extensions in the same house for years.. They still fined (his wife) on his most recent 90 day report.. I dont know him well and dont know if his rental house is in his wifes name, which would make a strange kind of sense, I only know he got fined and so I went to hear it direct before my 90 day.

Edited December 1, 2015 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

Yes.. We just submitted my TM30 using their ancient computer system that will only work properly with a prehistoric version of Internet Explorer.

But this is the first I hear of a TM28 form. Where does one get that and fill it in?

http://www.immigration.go.th/nov2004/download/tm28.doc

It says you can do at the local police.

So in order to comply, I am going to visit the wife's folks in Baan Nork for the Father's day weekend. There is no immigration office within 200km. I have to get her Dad to come with me to the local police, who will be drowning in Lao Kao, to report me as staying with him for a few days using TM30, and I need to report my change of address using TM28, within 48hrs of arrival.

On returning home to my wife's house, my wife needs to report my arrival, and I need to report my change of address within 48hrs to the local police here as there is no immigration office in my local area.

As long as I can get the police to do their jobs, all is good, right? I'll have the appropriate slips, and I'll have a few shots of Lao Khao with the police in Baan Nork.

Hence my posting in (far too much perhaps) detail on why this is, as was explained today, totally unworkable.

Edited December 1, 2015 by LivinLOS

[LivinLOS]

There are no rules. Just experience. Different places, different s*it happens.

Sadly very often the same office before or after lunch have a different idea of the rules..

I have been hearing of this for a few months but only now know anyone fined.. And would have a childish dummy spit if it was me.. One of my less mature traits.. Publish a rule I will comply, make one up later and I will not..

[LivinLOS]

BTW found this in my papers... I tend to think they are not going to the bother of printing this kind of new paperwork up, if they dont want to use it to 'justify' an old law being reintroduced.. Note the incorrect date emphasized in red at the top of the (thai) page..

This is what I mean about the front desk didnt know, but the 90 day guy sure as hell was looking for it, and the back office seemed ready for the argument.. My gut says they are preparing this..

[LivinLOS]

hmm.. those dont zoom and one is inverted.. give me a second with flickr..

[LivinLOS]

[LivinLOS]

OK so..

I dont think they are bothering to get things like this printed and ready, if they dont intend a drive of enforcement and fines to go hand in hand with it !!!

Feel free to ignore.. But my gut says they dont do this without a reason.

EDIT :: the obvious assumption is this was apparently told to immigration to 'solve' in sept.. straight after the august bangkok bombing.. And now the junta want to know where all non Thais are at all times ?? with a 24 hour window.. Seems to fit the timeline no ??

Edited December 1, 2015 by LivinLOS